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Show ALL Forums  > Politics  > Did BP get a "Chicago-style" shakedown AND do we "owe" BP an apology      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 jed456
Joined: 4/26/2005
Msg: 5
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Did BP get a Chicago-style shakedown AND do we owe BP an apology OR ... Page 2 of 3    (1, 2, 3)
How can you scream for due process for terrorists and NOT give due process to BP?


Two completely different topics BP agreed to set up the 20 billion account.75 million? I highly doubt that will even come close to the economic and environmental damage this spill is continuing to cause.Exactly how is it extortion when BP agreed I will say it again agreed to the 20 billion.
 jed456
Joined: 4/26/2005
Msg: 6
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Did BP get a Chicago-style shakedown AND do we owe BP an apology OR ...
Posted: 6/17/2010 12:09:41 PM

That is what the COURT system is for!


You want this to be battled out through our "wonderful" court system?
With the lawyers that should take oh lets be conservative and say 15 years.

And its so nice Sen Barton apologizing for the corporations.Looking out for the people my a##!
 jed456
Joined: 4/26/2005
Msg: 7
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Did BP get a Chicago-style shakedown AND do we owe BP an apology OR ...
Posted: 6/17/2010 12:14:17 PM

Liberals have no problem spending other people's money


I have no problem with a company that if it had spent 500,000 in all probability would have prevented this mess.Its there rig its destroying the gulf you broke it BP fix it and pay up!
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 8
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Did BP get a Chicago-style shakedown AND do we owe BP an apology OR ...
Posted: 6/17/2010 12:40:26 PM

Application for BP Oil Spill Settlement Funds
(Circle All that apply)
1. Please state your race:

A. Black
B. White
C. Other

2. How did you vote in the Presidential Race?

A. Barack Obama
B. Other
(If you answered “A”, please skip to # 8)

3. Did you contribute to the President’s election fund?
A. Yes
B. No
(If you answered “A”, please skip to # 8)

4. Will you contribute part of the money we give you to reelect President Obama?
A. Yes
B. No
(If you answered “A”, please skip to # 8)

5. Are you a member of SEIU or any other union?
A. Yes
B. No
(If you answered “A”, please skip to # 8)

6. Are you a member of ACORN?
A. Yes
B. No
(If you answered “A”, please skip to # 8)

7. The Tea Party Movement is:

A. Ignorant racist rednecks who didn’t vote for Obama
B. True Patriots who want a return to constitutional principles and limited government.
(If you answered “A”, please skip to # 8. If you answered "B", please skip to #10)

8. How much you want?

$__________________

9. Why you want it?

__________________________________________________________________________

10. You do not qualify to receive settlement funds. Go away and don’t bother us again.
Great copy and paste from your post (thread) on the other dating site. I have no clue what that has to do with the topic of this thread.

How to make a claim
http://www.bp.com/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9033791&contentId=7062345

Claims submission form
https://www.bp.com/secure/iframe.do?categoryId=9033722&contentId=7062138
IMPORTANT INFORMATION
You have been redirected to this location to file a claim for damages from the Deepwater Horizon incident. The following is important information about the claim process.
If you are filing a claim, please read this entire summary before you file your claim. Completing this online form is the first step in the process. Please be aware that you will need to be given a claims number by a claim representative before your claim is processed.
If you are having a medical emergency, see your doctor immediately or go to the nearest emergency room. Otherwise, you may speak to a nurse by calling the Deepwater Horizon medical support line 888-623-0287

Claim Types
Using this tool, you will able to file a claim for the following:
• Bodily Injury or Illness
• Property Damage
• Loss of Income
You will be required to describe the injury, illness, or property damage. You will also be asked how much money you are requesting to cover expenses, loss of income, and/or other matters. If you are unable to provide an actual amount, you will be asked for an estimate.

Claim Number
Every claim must have a claim number assigned to it before it is processed for payment. The claim number will be assigned upon completion of the on-line claim process. You will receive either an e-mail or a telephone call to provide you with the claim number. Please make a note of the number. You will need to provide this number along with other documentation to support your claim.

Multiple Claims
If you are filing for lost wages for more than one person, please file a separate claim form for each person affected.
If you are reporting property damage to more than one vehicle, boat, or water vessel, and they all belong to one owner, file a single claim form. If they belong to different owners, file one claim form for each owner.
If you are reporting property damage and more than one real estate property is involved, please file a separate claim form for each address.

Submitted Claims
Submitted claims will be processed promptly and each claimant/attorney will be contacted individually.

Claim Process
When you or your attorney is contacted by phone, your identity will be verified and a more detailed description of the claim, including supporting documentation, may be required. In some instances, it may be necessary for a claim representative to meet with you to obtain additional information and documentation including the possible inspection and photographing of damaged property. A repair/replacement estimate may be prepared. For business interruption losses, a claim representative will determine the amount of time the business was not operational and will request financial records including profit and loss statements and tax returns.

Interim Payments
BP believes that it is appropriate to provide interim advance payments to claimants who are not receiving their ordinary income or profit while cleanup is underway. The process works as follows:
• Once your supporting documentation is received, your claim will be evaluated and you will be notified if an advance payment will be provided for your claim.
• The advance payment will be up to the equivalent of one month lost income, based on documentation you provide. The advance is not based on actual income and you may receive supplemental payments if documented losses are larger than the amount of the interim advance payment.
No person asserting a claim or receiving payment for interim benefits will be asked or required to sign a release or waive any rights to assert additional claims, to file an individual legal action, or to participate in other legal actions associated with the Deepwater Horizon incident.

Previously Reported Claims
If you have already filed a claim, you will be asked to tell us:
• The name of company to which you reported the claim.
• The claim number provided to you.
• The name of the claim representative who handled your claim.
• The telephone number of the claim representative.
For more information on Previously Reported Claims, call 800-573-8249 from 9 a.m. to 9 p.m. Eastern Standard Time.

Legal Representation
An attorney is not necessary to submit a claim to BP. Some claimants may want to seek the advice or assistance of an attorney. BP pledges to treat claimants represented by attorneys the same as claimants proceeding without the assistance of an attorney.
You and your attorney may prefer that you deal with BP or its adjusters directly. In that event, your attorney must consent in writing. To assist you, we have provided the attached authorization in the link below, which will allow us to communicate with you directly with respect to your claim(s).

Attorney representation form
Your attorney must send a letter of representation or the 'Attorney representation form' to ESIS, Inc.
Fax: 302-476-6272
Mail: ESIS, Inc.
1 Beaver Valley Road
1 West
Wilmington, DE 19803
If you are an attorney, filing on behalf of claimant(s), please fax a letter of representation to ESIS, Inc. at 302-476-6272.

NO Charge To You
Your claim will be handled promptly at NO charge to you. Our authorized adjusters are dedicated professionals and will never ask you for money. If anyone tells you they are an adjuster and asks you for money, they do not represent us or you.

***********************************************************************
(* indicates a mandatory field.)
Your first name *
Your last name *
This claim is for: *
Yourself
A Business
Other
If 'Other', what is your relationship?

You are
An Employee
A Business
Other
Loss location name: *

Loss location street address *

City *

State *
Alabama
Florida
Louisiana
Mississippi
Other
If 'Other', provide State name below

Zip code *

Your email address

Your home phone number

Your work phone number

Your cell phone number

The best number to reach you is:
Home
Work
Cell
Is your residence/mailing address different from loss location?
Yes
No
If 'yes', please provide your street address:

City

State

Zip code

Are you
An owner of this residence
A tenant
Other
Claimant's first name *

Claimant's last name: *

Claimant's date of birth

Claimant's occupation: *

Are you filing a claim for
Bodily injury or illness
Property damage
Loss of income
Please provide a description of any property damage and/or bodily injury and/or loss of income

If your car was damaged please provide the year, make and model

Please provide the vehicle's License Plate #

Please provide the vehicle identification number (VIN)

If your boat was damaged, was it a charter boat?
Yes
No
If your boat was a charter boat, what is the size of the boat?

If your boat was a charter boat, what is the registration number?

Was your boat handmade?
Yes
No
If your boat was handmade, what year was it made?

If multiple boats were damaged, how many boats were damaged?

Have you previously reported this claim? *
Yes
No
Have you reported this claim to anyone else? *
Yes
No
If yes, to whom was the claim reported?

Date of previous report


There is now a CAP of 75 MILLION on damages for oil spills.
Does that also include compensation for the victims? Does that include the ongoing cost of cleaning up the wildlife? Does that include the cost of capturing endangered species and breeding them in captivity to eventually (in ever how many years it takes) be released again once all clean-up is complete? Etc., etc., etc. ........

How can you scream for due process for terrorists and NOT give due process to BP?
If I'm not mistaken, terrorists are being tried (using due process) for being criminals ... right? Was the accident of the well blowing up a criminal act? If so, please explain.

It is for a COURT to decide.
Why? Wasn't it an accident? Explain how it is an "accident" belongs in a criminal court.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 9
Did BP get a Chicago-style shakedown AND do we owe BP an apology OR ...
Posted: 6/17/2010 1:18:49 PM
Obama didn't get the government involved enough when this spill first happened. Now, he's getting the government too involved and infringing upon corporate sovereignty. Usually, he spends too much of the taxpayers' money. Now, to spare the taxpayers, he's spending too much of BP's money. If he didn't make BP pay, though, I would certainly have a problem with that. If he used the courts, I would complain about how slowly that money will go where it needs to go and how ineffective the President is. But because he is not using the courts, I will complain about the lack of courts and the stereotypical Chicago strongarming tactics. Everything he does is the wrong thing... when he does the right thing, it is too little too late, or clearly against his campaign promises. And did you see his tie the other day? Just awful.

Don't mind me-- I'm still irked that the last Republican leadership was such an utter clusterfvck, and this is how I express it.
 Super Ryan
Joined: 9/15/2007
Msg: 10
Did BP get a Chicago-style shakedown AND do we owe BP an apology OR ...
Posted: 6/17/2010 1:54:37 PM

There is now a CAP of 75 MILLION on damages for oil spills.

The cap does not apply to claims that could be fought in state court (where most of the victims could seek compensation). And the cap does not apply at all if federal safety regulations were violated.
So BP will be on the hook for much much more then the $75 million cap.

Setting up this escrow amounts to EXTORTION.

No it doesn't. Bp made the decision on their own free will.

Had they not agreed to it, Obama would have villified them to the point of their stock being WORTHLESS.

Both are happening anyways. So since their is no extra punishment if they decided not to set up the account, their is no extortion.

Yea - totally a Chicago Style shakedown.

Ah, one of the righties favourites "Chicago style". Care to elaborate exactly what makes this situation specific to Chicago.

How can you scream for due process for terrorists and NOT give due process to BP?

Everyone should be afforded due process. But how is BP being denied due process? BP made the decision to set up the account, they could have said no and fought it in the courts. The fact that the market may have punished BP if they said no does not mean they were denied due process, it's just the facts of a free market.

Who exactly is going to decide who gets the money?

As stated before, from a FoxNews article, Kenneth Feinberg will be in charge of the fund. This is the same guy that the Bush II administration put in charge of the 9/11 victims fund.

Does this sound ANYTHING like the government our founding fathers set up?

Does your car look like a horse? Do you spend winters only eating food that was salted or pickled?
The founding fathers had no clue about the problems that currently plague the US goverment. The founding fathers were a group of men from various backgrounds who had some good ideas, but were not infalible or controlled by devine intervention.
Believing that all decisions made by the US government should follow the founding fathers ideas, is about as smart as telling your doctor to only use medical treatments that were used by Hippocrates.

What choice did BP have BUT to agree?

They could have said no, and suffered the wrath of the free market.

If they fought the President on this the PR problem would have caused their share price to fall to almost nothing...

So they made a smart business decision. Not extortion, not even "Chicago style" extortion.

That is what the COURT system is for!

Actually the courts are the very last venue for dispute resolution.
Straight out of business school, the prefered order for dispute resolution is: negotiation, mediation, arbitration and finally litigation in front of a court.
In this case BP and President Obama went for negotiation. The courts were not needed, yet.

Does no one respect the Constitution anymore???

How was the Constitution not respected?
President Obama made a request, and BP agreed to the request. There was no force, and nothing against the Constitution.

Well if YOU get sued, do YOU want YOUR case decided by a jury of YOUR peers, or by a bureaucrat?

If I can get the desired outcome, I would much prefer to save the time and money and avoid the courts.
BP had the option of saying no, and going through the courts. But they must have felt this outcome was more beneficial to their corporation.

We either live by the rule of LAW, or we DON'T...

Are you trying to say that BP should not be held accountable?
BP is legally liable for the mess they created. For many different reasons companies decide to settle outside of courts, this does not mean the laws are not being respected.

I've never said BP shouldn't pay. I said they are entitled to DUE PROCESS.

They are not being denied due process. They simply chose the much simple negotiations route for the escrow account.

The facts, the liability, who gets paid, and WHEN, is not for you and I, or President Obama to decide.
It is for a COURT to decide.

No it is only for the courts to decide if the parties can not come to a mutual agreement.
Could you imagine if every dispute had to go through the courts? The courts would have a century plus long log jam.

Until the majority of Americans (especially politicians) realize that it is not a game pitting the repubs aganist the dems, but the one team is America, the US will continue its downward spiral to third world status.
This story is a perfect example of how some fringe nuts will turn a negotiation into a fake cry of extortion.

I didn't say this belongs in criminal court.

Well that's where it might belong. If there is criminal negligence, then I would hope someone needs to face a judge.

It obviously belongs in a civil court, or can I not safely assume liberals understand even THAT?

Only if there is a fight. Right now nobody is fighting, so no need yet for the courts.

What I want to know is who is going to decide who gets the escrow money they were forced to cough up in advance?

I'll repeat myself and state that BP was not forced, and Kenneth Feinberg, the guy Bush II put in charge of the 9/11 fund, will be in charge of the account.

What if BP doesn't agree to settle a PARTICULAR claim because they deny liability? Then what?

They can go through the usual steps of conflict resolution that ends in the courts.

Do the people who own rental homes on the coast get a check for lost revenue?

Yes because that is a loss of income caused by the BP spill.

Do I get a check because the cost of my seafood went up?

No, because that is not a loss. You have a choice if you want to buy seafood at a higher price, the people who lost income from their rental properties have no choice.

Who is going to decide who gets that money, for what claims, and when?

One more time, and with feeling, KENNETH FEINBERG.

What happens if BP says we are not going to pay for anything at all?

Then it goes through the courts, but right now BP is offering to pay.

Also if the 20 billion is paid, one would think that it would be place directly in the hands of the gulf coast victims by BP officials.

I doubt BP has the proper staff to take on such a project. Even if it were fought in court as a class action lawsuit, BP would not be making the individual payments to the victims.

No need for the government to get their hands on it, it should go directly to the gulf coast residents.

So just load up a plane with $20 billion in $100 bills and dump it over the effected area.
Someone needs to take the responsibility of doleing out the cash, and I would much rather see the government do it then a large multi-national corporation.

and infringing upon corporate sovereignty

There's no such thing as "corporate sovereignty". Corporations are held to the laws of the countries they operate in.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 11
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History
Did BP get a Chicago-style shakedown AND do we owe BP an apology OR ...
Posted: 6/17/2010 1:59:11 PM



(Swampy)How can you scream for due process for terrorists and NOT give due process to BP?
(Cotter)If I'm not mistaken, terrorists are being tried (using due process) for being criminals ... right?
(Swampy)I didn't say this belongs in criminal court. It obviously belongs in a civil court ...

Make up your mind. If one (terrorist) belongs in criminal court, and the other (oil well accident) belongs in civil court ... then you cannot compare the two/demand the same of the two. Terrorists are criminals and BP is negligent ... that's two very different things.

I wonder if this accident has anything to do with the following ...
http://crooksandliars.com/karoli/how-dick-cheney-and-tom-delay-caused-gulf-o

How George Bush, Joe Barton, Dick Cheney and Tom DeLay Caused the Gulf Oil Spill and Made Sure BP Will Never Be Held Accountable


By karoli Monday Jun 07, 2010 2:00pm

Does everyone remember D1ck Cheney's "National Energy Task Force"? The one where meetings were held in secret, and energy policy was set by the foxes in charge of the hen house? Yeah, I figured you might.

The Center for American Progress has connected the dots between this task force, the Bush Administration energy policies, and Tom DeLay's leadership in the House of Representatives to paint a straight line right back to Cheney & Co. I don't agree with the conclusion of "Cheney's Katrina", so how about we call it "Cheney's Oil Apocalypse" instead?


Regardless ... we did not shake down BP and we do not owe them an apology.
 Super Ryan
Joined: 9/15/2007
Msg: 12
Did BP get a Chicago-style shakedown AND do we owe BP an apology OR ...
Posted: 6/17/2010 2:13:44 PM
Hey what do you know, Barton has done a 180 on his statements.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/17/joe-barton-bp-apology-tex_n_616317.html

"I want the record to be absolutely clear that I think BP is responsible for this accident, should be held responsible, and should in every way do everything possible to make good on the consequences that have resulted from this accident," Barton said later in the day during the committee hearing. "And if anything I said this morning has been misconstrued in an opposite effect, I want to apologize for that misconstruction."

Later in the day, Barton issued a statement in which the Texas Republican apologized "for using the term 'shakedown' with regard to yesterday's actions at the White House" and retracted his "apology to BP."

Let's see how swamp spins his previous statements now.
 Super Ryan
Joined: 9/15/2007
Msg: 13
Did BP get a Chicago-style shakedown AND do we owe BP an apology OR ...
Posted: 6/17/2010 3:06:17 PM
For fun let's see what other republicans are saying about Barton's comments from this morning.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/06/17/congressman-apologizes-bp-white-house-shakedown-million/#content

"Congressman Barton's statements this morning were wrong," House GOP leaders John Boehner, Eric Cantor and Mike Pence said in a written statement. "BP itself has acknowledged that responsibility for the economic damages lies with them and has offered an initial pledge of $20 billion dollars for that purpose."

Rep. Jeff Miller, R-Fla., said he was "shocked" by Barton's "reprehensible comments that the government should apologize for the 'shakedown' of BP."

"I condemn Mr. Barton's statement," Miller said in a written statement. "Mr. Barton's remarks are out of touch with this tragedy and I feel his comments call into question his judgment and ability to serve in a leadership position on the Energy and Commerce Committee. He should step down as ranking member of the committee."
 Metreau
Joined: 7/30/2004
Msg: 14
Did BP get a Chicago-style shakedown AND do we owe BP an apology OR ...
Posted: 6/17/2010 5:36:50 PM
After reading the article, I have to agree with Cotter....there was no shakedown.

If any shakedown happened, it was prior to this agreement (with BP losing value in the market). And if you ask me, BP should've ponied up the funds prior to this.
 hard starboard
Joined: 6/21/2008
Msg: 15
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History
Did BP get a Chicago-style shakedown AND do we owe BP an apology OR ...
Posted: 6/17/2010 6:07:59 PM

Shouldn't BP have come forth immediately after the well blew up and began to
leak oil in the Gulf of Mexico and made an open-end offer to make it right no matter
how much it costs?

Actually, they did. Maybe not immediately after the well blew but within a couple days,
after the leak became apparent. It was Transocean that made a court filing involving
the law with the 75 million cap. I’ve never heard BP say anything but that they would
pay all legitimate claims.

Regardless ... we did not shake down BP and we do not owe them an apology.

You’re right... ‘we’ didn’t. Whether the Obama Administration did is up for debate since
‘we’ weren’t in the room and are not privy to the minutes. And I’m not going to apologize
to anyone for something Obama may have done since I didn’t vote for him.

This post should not be construed as supporting BP in any way. I’m just stating facts.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 16
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History
Did BP get a Chicago-style shakedown AND do we owe BP an apology OR ...
Posted: 6/18/2010 2:10:31 PM

After reading the article, I have to agree with Cotter....there was no shakedown.
Of course there wasn't.

... if you ask me, BP should've ponied up the funds prior to this.
There are any number of things BP should have been doing prior to the $20 billion agreement, but they were not doing it either.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 17
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History
Did BP get a Chicago-style shakedown AND do we owe BP an apology OR ...
Posted: 6/19/2010 12:57:05 PM

From what I understand, the 20 billion will be applied to scenerios that BP already agreed to provide funding for. I don't think they should have necessarily offered the money up front. I guess they could have, but I don't think it's some sort of black mark that they didn't.
Perhaps it was a trust issue.

They were entrusted with a lot before they "oiled" up the Gulf and so I can easily understand that there might be a "trust" issue for those losing their livelihood with BP just saying they'd be responsible for funding scenarios that BP determines applicable to their "oil spill" (gusher).



If they go bankrupt, how will they pay claims then? This is going to cost way more than 20 billion.
Well considering BP has ~$240.64 billion in assets, they should be ok.

I view the $20 billion more as a "trust" fund as opposed to a "shakedown" or "slush" fund and personally do not think the $20 billion will even begin to cover the damage. Additionally, I do not feel one bit sorry for them with all their assets and all the short cuts they have been taking to obtain those billions.

We owe them no apologies and basically need to take them to the bank ... the sooner the better.
 calisto04
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 18
Did BP get a Chicago-style shakedown AND do we owe BP an apology OR ...
Posted: 6/20/2010 10:26:54 AM

As happens in many threads, this seems to be drifting over to the "my opinion is fact" realm.

But thanks to several posters, the facts are coming out so there's no need to abandon the thread based on one poster's opinion.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 19
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History
Did BP get a Chicago-style shakedown AND do we owe BP an apology OR ...
Posted: 6/20/2010 12:29:43 PM
Republicans stick up for "the little guy" , right ? That person that's the backbone of America's success ?


How can you scream for due process for terrorists and NOT give due process to BP?


One's a living breathing human being, the other just thinks it is (when it's convenient) ...and SCOTUS agrees with them.

Ever try waterboarding a corporation ?

Can terrorists change the laws with their lobbyists ?


On the same program, though, Democratic Sen. Bill Nelson of Florida said Barton's comment was "illustrative that the oil industry rules the roost." He noted that senators from major oil-producing states were trying to prevent the chamber from voting on a bill that would greatly increase the liability of oil companies for damages from spills.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/06/20/democrats.barton.bp/index.html?hpt=C1


Can they delay justice for decades with lawyers ? As has been noted in the thread already, the snakes in the suits can do exactly that, as witnessed with the Exxon Valdez case.


Attorney Brian O'Neill has a lifetime of experience when it comes to the legal battles that ensue following major oil catastrophes.

After the Exxon Valdez oil tanker crashed in Prince William Sound in 1989, O'Neill headed straight to Alaska.
The Minnesota-based attorney had an interest in environmental issues and wanted to help because, as he put it, "there were an awful lot of hurt people."

He soon represented 2,600 fishermen and others affected by the spill. What he thought would be a two- or three-year "adventure" is still the biggest thing on his plate, one-third of his life later.
O'Neill successfully argued the 1994 trial after which a jury ordered Exxon to pay $5.3 billion in punitive damages to O'Neill's clients and others affected by the spill.

Exxon appealed almost two dozen times and O'Neill was there through it all.

In 2008, the case reached the U.S. Supreme Court, where a 5-3 majority finally set punitive damages at $500 million.

It was a significant blow to O'Neill and his clients.

Today, O'Neill is working to make sure each of his clients receives the remainder of their payments from Exxon, which he expects will be complete by year end.

CNN: This week, BP agreed to set aside a $20 billion escrow account to compensate U.S. businesses and workers who have been adversely affected by the Gulf oil spill. What are your thoughts on that?

O'Neill: I hope what it means is that they're going to take $20 billion and set up a fund for victims and that you'll go to the fund and that they'll pay you interim money and then they'll pay you final money. That's my hope.

And for a lot of the plaintiffs, they may not need to ever go to court, so they're not going to get tied up for 20 years. [In that regard] it would be really positive.

CNN: Did anything surprise you once you started representing the fishermen and taking on Exxon after the Valdez spill?

O'Neill: I thought that -- like a lot of people think now with regard to BP -- that Exxon would want to settle the case relatively early and move on and I was surprised a number of times with the fact that this was World War III to them, and they dealt with it that way ...

They spent over $400 million on lawyers, essentially defending [against] our claims. They took every appeal they could take and they took every delay they could take and filed every motion they could take.

Don't kid yourself: the oil companies have the best lawyers money can buy.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/06/18/exxon.valdez.lawyer/index.html



Does this sound ANYTHING like the government our founding fathers set up?


Does waiting twenty one years for justice for damages from such an obvious act as an oil spill sound any better ?

Those regular working class people that are the supposed base of the Republicans, those small Mom and Pop businesses, those fishermen and tourist industry people that will bear most of the economic brunt in the Gulf Coast area will not have to wait until 2031 for a check now thanks to this action.

This isn't the Gulf Oil Spill, it's the BP oil spill.

There's this gret photo on the net of a sign in at least one BP gas station.

{quote]Warning: DO not leave pumps unattended. You are responsible for spills.

Well, guess what ? So is BP.

It's destroying people's lives and income as we speak. That oil is no doubt BP's, and there's no doubt that it should not be where it is now, it should be either in barrels or still in the rock formation it came from.

No lawyer can change those facts, nor deny them, no matter how good they are.

They can certainly delay justice, however.

If you owe even a small amount of money in the USA to creditors, they can arrest you and slap you into a cell with a swiftness that will take your breath away.


According to the Star Tribune, judges in Illinois and Indiana have ordered jail time for debtors because they missed court-ordered payments on debt, which could include Chapter 13 bankruptcy plan payments. One Kenney, Illinois, man was sentenced to remain in jail until he came up with $300 he owed to a lumber yard.
Why do debtors ignore the warning signs that a debt warrant will be issued? One answer is that their debts have likely been sold several times to different debt collection agencies. They may simply not know who is calling or mailing things to them.

"They may think it's a mistake. They may think it's a scam. They may not realize how important it is to respond," said Mary Spector, a law professor at Southern Methodist University's Dedman School of Law in Dallas.

Unfortunately, people being jailed for debt are typically among the least likely to be able to pay.
"It's just one more blow for people who are already struggling," said Beverly Yang, a legal aid attorney in Illinois. "They don't like being in court. They don't have cars. And if they had money to pay these collectors, they would."

http://www.bankruptcysandiegoattorney.com/2010/06/the-rise-of-debt-warrants-insolvent-debtors-arrested-and-jailed.html


Now THAT'S a shakedown, and businessmen and lawyers have no problem with it when it involves the weak and the poor - in tough economic times. Debtor's prisons were outlawed in the 19th century in America


In 1833 the United States abolished Federal imprisonment for unpaid debts,and most states outlawed the practice around the same time. Before then, the use of debtor's prisons was widespread; signatories to the Declaration of Independence, James Wilson & Robert Morris were both later incarcerated, as were 2,000 New Yorkers annually by 1816. Sometimes, imprisonment would result from less than sixty-cents worth of debt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debtors'_prison#United_States


There's old school traditional American values for you.

This DOES, however, sound like the government your founding fathers set up :


"I hope that we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country."
- Thomas Jefferson


Happy Father's Day America, now who's your Daddy ?

This is one of those classic moments where your political opponent, with target fixation, slams his rhetorical fighter jet into the ground before getting a shot off.

And even the Republicans saw that the second it was said :


The statement last Thursday by Republican Rep. Joe Barton of Texas -- which was quickly retracted under pressure from House GOP leadership -- provided Democrats an opportunity to deflect growing public disenchantment with how the government was responding to the oil disaster.

"In case you forgot what Republican governance is like, Joe Barton reminded you," Emanuel said, calling Barton's comments a "philosophy" that considered BP the "aggrieved party" instead of the oil giant responsible for the worst environmental disaster in U.S. history.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/06/20/democrats.barton.bp/index.html?hpt=C1


The oil soaked cat slipped out of the bag on whose interests are really being served here.
 wvwaterfall
Joined: 1/17/2007
Msg: 20
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Did BP get a Chicago-style shakedown AND do we owe BP an apology OR ...
Posted: 6/21/2010 7:55:08 AM
I haven't look real closely at this fund, but frankly I don't see what all the fuss is
about.

BP probably recognized that they would ultimately pay out this much
anyway. They're sorely in need of some positive PR. As soon as the fund was
announced BP's stock improved in value. Having an independent system to
pay out the funds removes the opportunity to criticize BP for being slow to pay
or not paying enough to the right people. And this frees up some BP staff
resources to focus on other tasks. I see BP coming out ahead from this.

Obama gets to earn a point or two for doing something tangible that benefits
those most deeply affected financially. He picks someone with experience
handling funds similar to this. Other than catching the usual flak from those
who will criticize him for anything he does or doesn't do, he comes out ahead
from this as well.

And most important, those financially impacted by this crisis see important
attention being paid to their needs, and hopefully will see actual money in
their pockets far ahead of the pace Exxon Valdez damages were paid. So THEY
come out ahead from this.

And finally, the Obama scorn club gets one more thing to grouse about.

Near as I can tell, everyone wins.

Dave
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 21
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Did BP get a Chicago-style shakedown AND do we owe BP an apology OR ...
Posted: 6/21/2010 9:38:59 AM
You know Dave, I'm cynical enough at heart to actually think you are on to something there.
 itechman63
Joined: 7/7/2005
Msg: 22
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Did BP get a Chicago-style shakedown AND do we owe BP an apology OR ...
Posted: 6/21/2010 2:27:05 PM
It's just amazing and sickening that this disaster is just another thing to become an opportunity for partisan politicization.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 23
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Did BP get a Chicago-style shakedown AND do we owe BP an apology OR ...
Posted: 6/21/2010 4:11:56 PM

It's just amazing and sickening that this disaster is just another thing to become an opportunity for partisan politicization.
And the neocons are really showing their ugly faces. It's so apparent who has been taking money from the oil companies ... eh?
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 24
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Did BP get a Chicago-style shakedown AND do we owe BP an apology OR ...
Posted: 6/22/2010 6:33:01 AM

BP is doing everything in there power in my opinion to make things right. Now they are trying to help the small people while they clean up this mess.
LMAO ... those remarks are so ridiculous that it doesn't even warrant a reply ...

BP and its employees have given more than $3.5 million to federal candidates over the past 20 years, with the largest chunk of their money going to Obama, according to the Center for Responsive Politics.
It might be wise to get the whole story before going into a thread and parroting the Faux (Entertainment) News Channel ...

http://bigsole.blogspot.com/2010/06/which-politicians-score-most-dollars.html
Excerpt ...
But I guess we should expect that some Republicans would take advantage of this crisis and try to pull a few fast ones like calling out President Barack Obama on the money he's received from BP while ignoring their own people are flush in oil money by comparison. Furthermore, it's not surprising some fair-weather progressives have swallowed the misinformation as though the news didn't come from the Drill, Baby, Drill! camp.

The conservative talking point repeated, which also appears in the Fox News 8 piece online, is that Obama received more money from BP in election cycle 2008 than any other candidate, $71,051. Some folks take that soundbite and run, and even the Fox local news report has as its video graphic a picture of Obama with $71,051, a way of editorializing through presentation.

You have to read the whole article and watch the video to learn Republicans get more money overall and that Obama's money didn't come from the corporation itself but BP employees .
Did you get that? People who WORK for BP donated to Obama's campaign ... NOT the company.


Excerpt ...
However, Zurik also tells viewers that Louisiana Republican Senator David Vitter's treasure chest includes a pool of black gold, $242,000. That's fat for a senator, and anyone who has been paying attention as this oil spill story has grown could tell Vitter appears to be in oil's pocket.

Responding to Palin's misrepresentation, OpenSecrets, the Center of Responsive Politics, which is the same organization that Palin used as a reference when she tried to smear Obama, had the following to say at its blog:

Of the $71,051 Obama raised from BP-related sources, all of it came from individual employees, as Obama did not accept contributions from political action committees. During the entire 2008 election cycle, the company's PAC and employees favored Republicans in their giving at a ratio of about 3-1. And the oil and gas industry as a whole gave Palin and her running mate John McCain $2.4 million -- more than double the $901,000 Obama collected from the industry overall . BP itself is currently ranked as #106 on the Center's "Heavy Hitter" list of companies and organizations that spend the most on federal campaign contributions.

Writing at Time on the game, "BP And Obama: Playing Internet Gotcha With Campaign Finance Numbers," Mark Scherer analyzes a Politico story that went wild with the Obama-BP story, and he says:

It is true that according to this online database (OpenSecrets again) Obama received slightly more money from BP's PAC and employees since 1990 than anyone else. But there is a major a reason for that, which the story fails to mention: People who run for President raise much more money, and received much more money from BP interests--and just about every other interest. ...

*MediaMatters said in May that Obama received no PAC money from BP during his run for the presidency.

Scherer continues, discussing how the numbers are skewed and mis-presented, and then says:

That's one way of slicing the numbers. Another would be to say that in the last 20 years, BP has given 71 percent of its money to Republicans, and 29 percent to Democrats.


Trying to make Obama the bad guy ...
 .dej
Joined: 11/6/2007
Msg: 25
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Did BP get a Chicago-style shakedown AND do we owe BP an apology OR ...
Posted: 6/30/2010 3:06:14 PM

Did BP get a "Chicago-style" shakedown AND do we "owe" BP an apology OR ...
or should they have offered the 20 Billion up front a long time ago?

Am I allowed both? I think that they did get a shakedown. They were penalized an arbitrary amount of money outside due process of law, and I think that is unconstitutional.

However, I think that BP would pretty easily have had to pay out anyway. I just think it has made us (the United States) look terrible by going outside the law and imposing the fund on them. And I think it was a little ludicrous to jump down that one guy's throat for pointing it out, even if he should have had a little more political sense to shut his trap.
 itechman63
Joined: 7/7/2005
Msg: 26
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Did BP get a Chicago-style shakedown AND do we owe BP an apology OR ...
Posted: 7/2/2010 7:21:48 AM

Unless one can read the minds of the folks who work at BP, one can not say that they are not doing everything.


It's not whether or not they are doing everything now. As this story goes on, note terms in BP documents dating to 2009 about "loss of well control" and a series of calculated negligence indicating knowledge that the well needed to be shutdown for repairs at the minimum for a year before the explosion. There were dozens of opportunities to do SOMETHING before the disaster with knowledge of the potential consequences.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/30/us/30rig.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/27/us/27rig.html?_r=1
 itechman63
Joined: 7/7/2005
Msg: 27
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Did BP get a Chicago-style shakedown AND do we owe BP an apology OR ...
Posted: 7/2/2010 10:46:03 AM
I think what stands out to me is that this isn't an approach isolated to BP in that Corporations will take outstanding risks in cutting corners to boost that shareholder's report and put livelihoods and lives in jeopardy to gross $200 billion in revenues instead of only representing $199 billion in gross revenues. How many more wells are out there waiting to experience similar catastrophe by BP or Exxon or any of the other Big Oil Corporations? Vehicles by auto manufacturers sent out the door with known defects putting lives at risk because the execs believe that in spite of the warnings of their engineers that they can get by and bring better earnings to themselves and their shareholders?

And this whole partisan bickering over this mess is this indoctrinated belief that our survival is dependendent on granting Corporations a wide berth without consequence and to not expect them to take a hit for even a dollar in demanding them to do things the right way. We can't irritate the Corporations a bit or they'll take our livelihoods away from us. Reaganomics or Trickle Down is essential. But in reality, there is never enough for the Corporations and they already learned they can keep as much as possible without trickling it down to us and our jobs already have left us to go to other places so as little as possible trickles down away from the execs and shareholders.

BP still could have made astonishing revenues on Deepwater Horizon even while absorbing some losses in shutting it down and making the needed repairs as they were already known a full year before the explosion. They took the risks and so should pay for the consequences even if it means that BP pays out every single penny they have and their executives have to flip burgers to survive. That's life for each of us if we make poor choices resulting in consequences... why not them?
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 28
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Did BP get a Chicago-style shakedown AND do we owe BP an apology OR ...
Posted: 7/3/2010 5:54:34 AM
Did BP get a "Chicago-style" shakedown AND do we "owe" BP an apology OR ... should they have offered the 20 Billion up
front a long time ago?
They should have offered the money up front and we should not apologize to them for asking them to put their money
where their mouth is.

They're putrifying the Gulf of Mexico and had ample time to prove they were willing to pay up when claims first starting
pouring in. Instead they took their time to even address the issues and there have been reports of filed claims being lost and
when people inquire, they are being told their claims are lost. People are having to re-file repeatedly.

From what I have been reading, it appears that 5 Billion Dollars a year, for four years, will be placed by BP into an escrow
account (to be administered by Kenneth Feinberg). I think one of the best parts about this is that people will now file
their claims with Feinberg instead of BP.

I think it will also reduce many of the concerns people expressed regarding the claims process related to the concerns about
the 'gaming' to be expected from BP in the claims process. This is good news for claimants.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 29
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Did BP get a Chicago-style shakedown AND do we owe BP an apology OR ...
Posted: 7/3/2010 9:00:43 AM

Cotter, I love that you just answered your own OP question again.
I know, that was great ... eh?

Thanks for the pat on the back.

I've been busy lately, but I do try to post the information as it becomes available. That bit about the 5 Billion was not available the day I posted the thread.
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