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 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 107
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Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parentPage 5 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
I think real life experience adds quite a lot.


I agree sarnia, however the experience is not parenting, it is being a child. Do we really remember how we felt about our parents methods, as a toddler? Do we really remember what it is like to be a toddler? Even if we do, does it stop us from repeating the behaviors of our parents, even if they humiliated, hurt & stunted our growth? There is a great deal to be learned from studies and a great deal to be learned from those who are seemingly impartial. A word to the wise...(and all that)
 torquoise pixie
Joined: 11/20/2008
Msg: 108
Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/16/2010 2:13:38 PM
Hi itsallinthesoul, I wrote a lot to post here last night into a notepad, and then hit delete, because mostly it was confrontational stuff aimed at people who mock and criticise something they don't know and confuse it with something it isn't (permissiveness). Eventually I saw how futile that is and went onto another blog instead of to bed which i should have done.

Now I would like to say wow and congrats to the progress you are making with your daughters dad, it is amazing to hear at what level you two are now able to communicate, especially given what it used to be.


I just read an article earlier this afternoon (yes, SFB, there I go beleiving what I read in the media again, lol) in which Mary Kate Olsen was lamenting her oppressive childhood, saying that she felt like a 'performing monkey' and that she would never wish it on anyone. One of the richest young business women in the world, the world is her oyster, and even she harbors such painful memories. People responded with the typical attacks regarding her lack of gratitude for the opportunities her wretched childhood afforded her.... that things could have been a lot worse, and indeed, I suppose they could have.

Of course they could have, as they always can. What this illustrates, is primarily two things:
1) the highest value for those judging her are money, fame and influence
2) the attitude that we should all just suck it up and shut up. I agree wallowing in regret and self-pity is a completely stuck and contraproductive situation, but ironically precisely not allowing your self to feel that you resent something and then let it go, is what keeps you attached to it and stuck with it. It is also what makes people judge Mary Kate Olsen, as they do not allow themselves to say, you know **** it, i resent this, there i said it, now i can move on, they think they are free of such garbage, but precisely this irritation with her shows that they are not, it just became a part of their shadow, because to complain or to feel compassion for oneself was tought to them to be weakness and a sign of being spoilt and they never questioned it and so they don't even know what they REALLY resent. They talk about all the shit they had to go through and how GOOD it was for them. Yes I get it in some way it IS good for you. But not like this, not when you never allow yourself to call it what it really was - SHIT. And then move on.


The key is that children develop better in a two-parents healthy household than in a one-parent healthy household. When it becomes a traumatic environment, that's another story.

I agree, not to mention there are also other models, such as living with extended family, so you have several male and female role models.


Authoritarian parenting teaches children that they can't be respected when the other person is stronger or bigger, so they only way to get listened to is to BE the stronger one and forget about understanding and care for other people in weaker positions. Both perpetrate from generation to generation the kind of disrespect and egotistic attitude that we see over and over in today's society.

Authoritarian also can convey that the child is not trustworthy, is stupid and often more dependent than necessary (particularly in teenagehood), which leads to far worse rebellion than in an approach of gradual increase of the child's independence and responsibility, and message of trust. Often authoritarian approach comes even with belittling, name calling etc.


Do we really remember how we felt about our parents methods, as a toddler? Do we really remember what it is like to be a toddler? Even if we do, does it stop us from repeating the behaviors of our parents, even if they humiliated, hurt & stunted our growth? There is a great deal to be learned from studies and a great deal to be learned from those who are seemingly impartial.

I agree with you there, but would just add, that if you want, you can certainly recall at least some of your childhood experiences and use them too. Empathy is a key too and imagination.
 nicegirl1974
Joined: 7/25/2010
Msg: 109
Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/17/2010 11:14:34 PM
i'm just saying i'm not being hard on you ok ....sorry if i sound harsh

1 if he can't control her at the age of 5 what is he going to do when she is 15.....i think he could of controlled it on his own but was more worried about what u were doing ? or if u were home ?....excuses....

2 like at the age of 5 if she was tired time out nap time !! don't call mom deal with it yourself....
3 i do agree though no pool and also again its his weekend or time with her take her somewhere else to swim ........not your place.....seems to make you involved in some way........

what u can do not answer the phone make him deal with her and she will learn i have to listen to my dad cus my mom isn't going to get involved no more....

4 JUST SAYING maybe there is more going on behind closed doors and she can't tell u because u and your ex are so close.....like him being to hard on her,not paying a attention to her,not letting her do nothing......making her act this way....
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 110
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Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/18/2010 5:47:23 PM
I'm no being hard on you, jackie, either, and I don't mean to sound harsh, but I do think you may have hit on what is, if not in this particular instance, a large part of the problem. It is not our job as parents to control our children, rather to teach them how to control & conduct themselves. Control is at the heart of rebellion, once they become teens. here is ALWAYS more behind closed doors, sometimes good, sometimes bad.
 happybunny8
Joined: 4/16/2010
Msg: 112
Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/20/2010 5:48:37 PM
I say that what you observe in today's society is actually caused a lot more because so FEW parents even TRY to listen to their kid's emotions


Hehe, yeah I listen to my brother and his daughter discussing something she did in this manner. It goes on and on and on with her always talking about her "hurt" feelings and not admitting to something she did despite the obvious facts. It's like a 60 minute conversation of both of them saying the same thing over and over and him just getting more frustrated. It almost reminded me of him allowing her a lawyer to state her case. Ridiculous.

His wife just let him go about it and shakes her head. My nephew on the other hand? You could use this approach with him and it would work.

Sorry, but sometimes you just give your child crap and/or a punishment (depends on age) and that is that. You do something unacceptable and explained why it is unacceptable and YOU still argue with me?! There has to be boundaries. I agree with trying to talk things out with children, but some children don't respond to that. Each child is different. Some respond to a serious talk; other belittle that; others need a firmer discipline. It is really hard to state that one way of raising and disciplining a child is the way for all.

I'm lucky in that I have seen both types of households. I was raised in a 2-parent household and rarely saw my parents fighting in a disrespectful way. I feel that they definitely made an effort to ensure that our home was a happy home.

I have a friend who's husband is extremely disrespectful to almost everyone. They have lost friends because of his behaviour and he still believes he is not in the wrong. His children do not spend any time with him and he generally only yells at them.

In that situation, the one-parent situation would be far superior. His children will grow up to not respect him, just like he did not respect his father.

I, however respect my parents today because of who they are and how they treat others.
 ConsciousSoul
Joined: 7/9/2008
Msg: 113
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Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/20/2010 11:12:35 PM

Hehe, yeah I listen to my brother and his daughter discussing something she did in this manner. It goes on and on and on with her always talking about her "hurt" feelings and not admitting to something she did despite the obvious facts. It's like a 60 minute conversation of both of them saying the same thing over and over and him just getting more frustrated. It almost reminded me of him allowing her a lawyer to state her case. Ridiculous.


Listening skills do not came "out of the box" to untrained parents. It's amongst the hardest skills to acquire and develop. Right from the start, "listening" isn't going to really happen while the listening person has an agenda on her mind and is trying to get her to "admin what she did" .. that's not listening, that's manipulating! Listening is when the person is truly open to understand. It's hard. It can't be done in any state of mine; and it can't be faked. Plus you need to know HOW to do it, so that you don't block the communication.

So I highly doubt that what I am advocating on these forum has anything to do with what your brother is trying to do with his daughter. I am even surprised these kind of conversation could even last 60 minutes: kids don't have that kind of attention span and getting them to actually talk about their emotions is quite a challenge even to do so for 10 minutes in a row.


You do something unacceptable and explained why it is unacceptable and YOU still argue with me?!

Sure does. Who says YOU should always be right? Can't you conceive a world in which the parent may make a mistake? Or, more importantly, a world in which the parent may be right, but the child still feels HE was right, too? He is a full person, he deserves to be heard, even when he is wrong. Because his FEELINGS are never wrong. And he needs to make sens of them.


There has to be boundaries.

Of course. But what does boundaries have to do with listening to your kid's emotions?


I agree with trying to talk things out with children, but some children don't respond to that.

EVERY single child responds to *communication*. Remember: communication with their parent is the life's line, a matter of life and death to a child. But communication takes many forms. Children who don't respond to a parent trying to "talk things out" usually happens to have weak attachment to the parent. To listen, they first need to be listened, touched, connected with. Don't look for what's wrong with the child. Look for the source in the parent's dynamic.


Each child is different.

Every child is also a human being who goes through the same cognitive development, the same life-span developmental stages, who will develop the same kind of coping mechanisms and the same kind of attachment patterns to the same kind of parenting practices and to the same kind of traumas.
Truly, there is a lot more common in every children than there are differences.
What doesn't really work well for a child will not work well for ANY child. What really works well for a child will work well for every child.

If it "works well" for a child and "does not work" for another, it actually means it's not working at all for any child; only, one child is managing and coping better that the other.
 happybunny8
Joined: 4/16/2010
Msg: 114
Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/21/2010 6:25:59 AM
Some good points here, but tell me - how much time have you really spent with children? Have you lived with children? Worked with children?

All the stats and research can mean nothing when faced with the real world.
 ConsciousSoul
Joined: 7/9/2008
Msg: 115
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Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/21/2010 7:35:43 AM

Some good points here, but tell me - how much time have you really spent with children?
A few years

Have you lived with children?
Yes

Worked with children?
Yes

More importantly, What I am advocating here in these forums comes from the work of people who spent their lifetime working with children and their parents, an d from studies and research that included thousands and thousands of parents and children in real world situations. That's how research work: it's not "theoretical", it's applied knowledge observed and deduced from real life situations.
 Amberlightrose
Joined: 1/29/2009
Msg: 116
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Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/23/2010 10:40:17 PM

Listening skills do not came "out of the box" to untrained parents. It's amongst the hardest skills to acquire and develop. Right from the start, "listening" isn't going to really happen while the listening person has an agenda on her mind and is trying to get her to "admin what she did" .. that's not listening, that's manipulating! Listening is when the person is truly open to understand. It's hard. It can't be done in any state of mine; and it can't be faked. Plus you need to know HOW to do it, so that you don't block the communication.


Have to agree with you there Csoul.

And I don't think that it just applies to adults 'listening' to children either!
I think many of us have felt frustration when trying to explain our feelings to someone significant in our lives and being told our feelings are simply irrational and we have 'no right' to feel that way!
In that kind of environment, especially if it's a frequent occurence, people simply give up trying to communicate at all.
What is the point if that person is never going to even TRY to understand?

It must be even more frustrating for children because they have the disadvantage of being smaller and weaker than us.
If adults can feel like they are not being listened to or understood, how much harder is it for a child?

I think we can never know how good we were as parents UNTIL our children have all grown up.
And as much as we try to be 'good' parents, it can be very confronting to be told by your adult children that there WERE times when you didn't listen or seem to be trying to understand.
There WERE times when your kids felt you didn't really care about them that much.
Which was never true, I always cared.
But if they felt that way; it was the way they felt at that moment. And if they FELT like that, then at that time I was BEHAVING in a manner which made them feel that way.

You hear all that stuff about needing to be 'trained' in all aspects of our employment, but with the most important thing; raising future generations we get little 'training' at all.
Many of us have no idea about child development and how children might think and react at a certain age.
And all the bad stuff from our own child-hood can travel with us. In moments of stress we can forget to be rational and resort to the type of parenting we ourselves had as children. Which in my case was not all that great!

I still have a 14 year old and I am learning all the time.
The thing is about life is that none of us are perfect and we shouldn't ever stop learning. We can always learn to do things a better way.

Not everyone feels that way which is sad, because they could be missing out on a more peaceful, happier life.
Let face it, even on our deathbed we are still learning.
We are learning the last thing we will ever learn.
How to die.
 big pacific
Joined: 7/2/2009
Msg: 117
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Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/24/2010 10:41:51 AM

The key is that children develop better in a two-parents healthy household than in a one-parent healthy household. When it becomes a traumatic environment, that's another story.


The problem is, the parents that i've seen get divorced will call a home unhealthy because they aren't happy, NOT because it's unhealthy for the kids. People remember watching mom and dad fight and use that emotion to justify selfish behaviour. They don't think of kids first anymore.


So, bigpacific - let me make sure I understand you. Are you saying that the parenting methods I am advocating, and to which you oppose so vehemently, are "selfish" and "lazy" parenting? Are you saying that learning to communicate in healthy way, problem solve together, understand your child's problem's root cause, and learn to listen to their deeper emotions and needs is "easy"?


No. I did in reading your original posts, as we have discussed it further i have changed my opinion. I do question the ability of parents to distinguish between the difference in your parenting program from letting their children run wild however. While you have years of training and experience and can hold true to training, I have fears that they will take the "listening" and forget to enforce boundaries, misinterpreting your message.....As i did.


Sure does. Who says YOU should always be right? Can't you conceive a world in which the parent may make a mistake? Or, more importantly, a world in which the parent may be right, but the child still feels HE was right, too? He is a full person, he deserves to be heard, even when he is wrong. Because his FEELINGS are never wrong. And he needs to make sens of them.


This is what i mean. Parents don't always have to be right, but they DO always have to be in control. I have concerns that parents will have the ability to distinguish between the two.

Still though, this question still lays unanswered: Children were better behaved in the 50's, with a traditional parenting model of authoritative rearing, children are now worse, and we have been moving AWAY from the traditional authoritative parent, how much is correlation and how much is causation?
 ConsciousSoul
Joined: 7/9/2008
Msg: 118
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Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/24/2010 3:02:58 PM

The problem is, the parents that I've seen get divorced will call a home unhealthy because they aren't happy, NOT because it's unhealthy for the kids. People remember watching mom and dad fight and use that emotion to justify selfish behaviour. They don't think of kids first anymore.

Yeah, I think this is unfortunately often true. Drawing the line between what's being unhappy for the parent and what's unhealthy for the child is difficult: it can be a very fine line. I think what makes this line so delicate to balance is that children communicate first and fare most through non-verbal. On a subconscious level, they get it really quickly when something is wrong in the family, no matter how hard parents who no longer love each other "try" to be happy for their child. So to draw that line is difficult: you can stay for your child even when you are unhappy, but how long? Until what point? How hard should you try to "make it work" for the children - and when is it the right time to let go? I wish I had the answers to these, but I think it's near impossible to determine.


I did in reading your original posts, as we have discussed it further i have changed my opinion.
Thank you for telling me, it's rare to see this on forums. *respect*


I do question the ability of parents to distinguish between the difference in your parenting program from letting their children run wild however. While you have years of training and experience and can hold true to training, I have fears that they will take the "listening" and forget to enforce boundaries, misinterpreting your message.....As i did.

Yes, this is VERY true. I have been educating, explaining, writing for two years on this very subject on this forum, and I have successfully helped many people who specifically asked for help. But I found it extremely difficult to convey how different what I am advocating is from the permissive approach to the other people - the readers who didin't ask for help. It's like a paradigm, perhaps even a cultural paradigm: they seem to automatically assume that if you don't win in a relationship, you have to lose. They seem to often be stuck between control and no-control, as if these were the only possible choices.

And you are perfectly right: you CANNOT afford to lose control and forget your boundaries, because that would also be detrimental to child's growth and development.


Still though, this question still lays unanswered: Children were better behaved in the 50's, with a traditional parenting model of authoritative rearing, children are now worse, and we have been moving AWAY from the traditional authoritative parent, how much is correlation and how much is causation?

If I may ask, I am curious to know: how do you determine that children are truly worst today? Or are we simply hearing more about it today, because of how connected we are through mass medias?
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
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Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/24/2010 6:14:08 PM
I am curious to know why you think it's a traditional model of authoritative rearing & not the "family time", community involvement & general environment that made children of yesteryear "better"? Personally, I see that many parents are less effective simply because they are less involved, more selfish, less willing to actively parent, period, not simple less authoritative.
 ConsciousSoul
Joined: 7/9/2008
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Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/24/2010 7:51:49 PM
^^^^^^ authoritarian, ohwhynot :-) Authoritative is a different parenting style, and a much better one too.
Here is an article I posted on my parenting portal about parenting style:
http://parentastic.org/parenting/parenting-styles/
 big pacific
Joined: 7/2/2009
Msg: 121
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Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/25/2010 7:19:46 AM

I am curious to know why you think it's a traditional model of authoritative rearing & not the "family time", community involvement & general environment that made children of yesteryear "better"? Personally, I see that many parents are less effective simply because they are less involved, more selfish, less willing to actively parent, period, not simple less authoritative.


Mostly because "family time" didn't really exist in the era i'm speaking of. I just used the 50's as a general reference point. The "greatest generation" (people that survived the depression and ww2) were raised by factory workers in horrible conditions working 6 days a week. The parenting style then was FAR more authoritarian, often parents beating their children. I don't advocate that of course, but i'm not speaking of the june cleaver parenting, although that also was more authoritarian than nowadays. These children were given responsibility at a very early age, often working out of necessity, they had the HARDEST lifestyles and yet were some of the most well mannered children.

And soul, when i look at children being worse now, i look at the following COMPLETELY subjective measuring sticks.

Suicide rates
responsibility
maturity
divorce rates
youth criminality stats
drug use
gang violence
etc.
 torquoise pixie
Joined: 11/20/2008
Msg: 122
Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/25/2010 10:32:49 AM
big pacific, I would personally not place the highest value on my children being well mannered, when thinking of my parenting goals. My values would be that they would grow up to be balanced, well developed, all rounded individuals who can take care of themselves. Nothing wrong with good manners per se, as long as you don't put them above your personal integrity.

Also lets look at your list of problems you are complaining about:

Suicide - that tends to happen most in children who are desperate, without anyone to turn to, often abused and or bullied

Lack of responsibility is most often observed in children for whom the parents do too much and or smother them, which can happen both in authoritarian (when appropriate freedoms and responsibilities are not developed when the child is ready for it) or in permissive parenting of parents who are without spine (the parent lets the child dictate what is none of the childs business). Often these two approaches are combined within one family and such children tend to be a little lost in the world, not knowing what, letting their parents run their lives etc. and at the same time often being very disrespectful to their parents (i mean when well into adulthood)

Maturity - I understand that the same way as responsibility, beware though of false maturity, where a child is for example so called parentised (which VERY often happened to those born in 50s - like 6 year old girl has to be a mummy to her siblings as the mother is too busy to do it etc, but by far not limited to, it happens now too) - where a child way too young is forced to be like an adult, and will often never stop resenting it in their life and stay bitter (although this is individual, i am not saying some don't get over it, but it does take therapy, self help, self awareness etc)

Divorce rates - divorces can have so many causes that i don't think i can capture an essence of it here well. But most relevantly, it is not something that is limited to the young, It is very very common in people who were born in 50s and raised in authoritarian style.

Youth criminality stats - again these are children who are unsupported, often beaten up etc, looking for a substitute family in a gang of unsuitable friends, in between whom they feel more understood, able to be "grown up" etc than in their family

drug use - similar as with suicide and crime

gang violence dtto

Now - how is this an argument for NOT using the methods discussed here, when those address these problems, as opposed to authoritarian and permissive styles?
 torquoise pixie
Joined: 11/20/2008
Msg: 123
Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/25/2010 10:56:46 AM

Yeah, I think this is unfortunately often true. Drawing the line between what's being unhappy for the parent and what's unhealthy for the child is difficult: it can be a very fine line. I think what makes this line so delicate to balance is that children communicate first and fare most through non-verbal. On a subconscious level, they get it really quickly when something is wrong in the family, no matter how hard parents who no longer love each other "try" to be happy for their child. So to draw that line is difficult: you can stay for your child even when you are unhappy, but how long? Until what point? How hard should you try to "make it work" for the children - and when is it the right time to let go? I wish I had the answers to these, but I think it's near impossible to determine.

The thing is there are far too many scenarios to consider. For instance in cases where the mother is being beaten up and children abused, i think its a no brainer. Often such women DO stay and use this "i am doing it for the children" as an excuse for staying, when the right thing for everyone is to leave. At the end of the day, we don't know 100% what is happening in someone elses family (or unfortunately in our own, which is far more of a problem), so we cannot really generalise too much and stay objective at the same time.

I do question the ability of parents to distinguish between the difference in your parenting program from letting their children run wild however. While you have years of training and experience and can hold true to training, I have fears that they will take the "listening" and forget to enforce boundaries, misinterpreting your message.....As i did.

Yeah, i think this is true as well, but those who are genuinely interested, can find ample sources to find out more. And if they were converted, like you, I and many others, they got the difference already in the process of conversion.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 124
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Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/25/2010 8:11:06 PM

^^^^^^ authoritarian, ohwhynot :-) Authoritative is a different parenting style, and a much better one too.
Here is an article I posted on my parenting portal about parenting style:
http://parentastic.org/parenting/parenting-styles/


Thanks for the clarification, cs, but I was addressing bigpacific's post. While I agree that authoritative parents are more effective, I was trying to bring up the fact that there are extenuating factors that aid children in overcoming even poor parenting methods (like a sense of community, valuing family) ; it's not all about the method.
 ConsciousSoul
Joined: 7/9/2008
Msg: 125
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Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/25/2010 8:28:22 PM
^^^^ I was simply referring to Authoritarian rather than Authoritative because you were quoting bigpacific about the "traditional model of authoritative rearing", and I think that the traditional model that bigpacific was referring to was the authoritarian model.

But, this is very true - it's not only about the method, there are a LOT of new or changing factors that ties in to the community and the society as a whole. Thank you for mentioning this, ohwhynot46!
 torquoise pixie
Joined: 11/20/2008
Msg: 126
Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 8/26/2010 10:07:18 AM
@az109

That child is someone who will grown up to bother or please the world around them

Yes, that is true, but again the priorities - you could say that Jesus Christ bothered a lot of people of his time. Pleasing everyone is not the highest value in my view.

@sarniafairyboy
I don't think anybody here thinks that people had it easier in the 50s. In fact from what i heard from my family and all available source, i would not want to live back then and i think they had it very hard.

I don't know if either of us can 'debate' this intelligently becasue neither of us were around in the 1950's .

Indeed, most of us were not. But lot of my family members were and i listened to them telling me about it. I have also heard a little about how children were raised back then, and i can now experience those children as mature adults (in some cases not so mature).


I say that what you observe in today's society is actually caused a lot more because so FEW parents even TRY to listen to their kid's emotions; because the VAST majority of them still use either permissive or authoritarian parenting: by doing so, they show their kids that respecting each other is not important. Permissiveness (which is NOT what I advocate), teaches children that they don't need to even try to understand the others. Authoritarian parenting teaches children that they can't be respected when the other person is stronger or bigger, so they only way to get listened to is to BE the stronger one and forget about understanding and care for other people in weaker positions. Both perpetrate from generation to generation the kind of disrespect and egotistic attitude that we see over and over in today's society.

Yep, nicely summarised, that is how i perceive it too. I would only add that the two approaches (authoritarian and permissive are often used by the same parents at different times. For example the parent could exercise high control on the child, in areas where it would be better for both to let the child to experience more freedom and responsibility (gradually and age appropriate), and that same parent let the children dictate all kinds of bullcrap and cater to their every whim, lets the kid to be disrespectful/does not know how to deal with it etc.



I agree with trying to talk things out with children, but some children don't respond to that.
EVERY single child responds to *communication*. Remember: communication with their parent is the life's line, a matter of life and death to a child. But communication takes many forms. Children who don't respond to a parent trying to "talk things out" usually happens to have weak attachment to the parent. To listen, they first need to be listened, touched, connected with. Don't look for what's wrong with the child. Look for the source in the parent's dynamic.

I can most easily imagine that where the child does not respond to talking something out, that talking out is actually an admonition from the parent, which lots of children simply turn off in their heads until its over. So yes, communication takes many forms.


I think many of us have felt frustration when trying to explain our feelings to someone significant in our lives and being told our feelings are simply irrational and we have 'no right' to feel that way!

Precisely, or if we are immediately given an advice, as if we are idiots and cannot work it out ourselves. When all we wanted to hear was "Man that must have sucked"!

In that kind of environment, especially if it's a frequent occurence, people simply give up trying to communicate at all.

Precisely.


It must be even more frustrating for children because they have the disadvantage of being smaller and weaker than us.
If adults can feel like they are not being listened to or understood, how much harder is it for a child?

Plus, I would say there is even more to this. If i feel as a troubled teen that my parents don't give a monkey (or are even downright the cause of my unhappiness), and my friends can show more empathy (be it genuine friends or someone likely to use me or have a bad influence on me) - can you see where this leads?


Children were better behaved in the 50's, with a traditional parenting model of authoritative rearing, children are now worse, and we have been moving AWAY from the traditional authoritative parent, how much is correlation and how much is causation?

It is not just about how the child is behaved when they are still a child or when others can see them. The question is also what sort of adults they grow into, what do they do when nobody is looking. And then perhaps you find the results of heavy handed parenting not so pleasing.
 readthedamnprofile
Joined: 5/5/2010
Msg: 127
Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 9/7/2010 7:34:09 AM
Children are very ego-centric you are right. That usually starts to wan as they grow older and their super egos become more developed. Right now your daughter is mainly ID (impulses and needs) with a bit of ego (fundamental personality characteristics) with very little sense of higher level thinking in terms of a conscience (superego). In order to help her along the path of developing a sense of how her behaviour affects other people and how she fits into the bigger picture of life while still getting her basic needs met her, you need to acknowledge and validate her needs, if they are actually valid, without allowing her to manipulate and control you.

This seems like a lot of drama to me over a child that was basically told no to something that was a want, not a need, and due entirely to her own bad choices in acting inappropriately towards her father to begin with. Dad should not have called you looking for assistance, he should have rode out the storm by telling her that while he undestood that she was upset about losing her day at the pool it was her own behaviour that caused the privilege to be revoked in the first place and if the reason she was acting this way was because she was tired then she should have taken a nap and when she woke up in a better mood they could have planned something fun then. Give her choices but, choices that have consequences based on which choice she makes.

By his calling you, he is letting his daughter know subconsciously that he cannot control her and you are reinforcing it by running to the rescue and by making her the center of attention by devoting so much time to what amounts to a childish hissy fit. If you keep this up your whole life will be tied up in dealing with your daughters temper tantrums and demands and while that might not seem like a big deal now wait until she is a teenager and she still thinks life should revolve around her because she never learned the difference.

By all means, comfort her when she is upset but, don't let little problems like this take up so much of your time or you are going to leave your daughter with the impression that her bad moods rule the roost and she will learn that quite honestly because, frankly, they do from what you are saying. Tell your husband that an emergency requiring your presence or intervention is NOT taking place when your daughter is being rude to him because he denied her something she wanted because she was acting up. If he cannot get a handle on dealing with a child's fit in the face of being told no, he is not going to be a very effective parent. And if you keep undermining him, albeit at his request, in his attempts to be an authority figure in your daughters life you better be prepared to deal with the consequences of that.
 Maillesmith
Joined: 7/13/2010
Msg: 128
Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 9/7/2010 8:26:55 AM
I'm no where near that stage yet in my parenting, my child is only 7 months old currently.
But from my experiences in that 7 months is that it is quite confusing to the child when you have difference between the parents when it comes to parenting style. My ex and I agreed to put my son on a schedule, but while I was away for the better part of the day, I had no control in it's implication. This created problems when it came to bedtime. My son had not learned how to put himself to sleep, because during the day, the only way his mother would put him to sleep would be to rock and cuddle him. Come midnight (because of his erratic sleeping pattern), when I try to put him down for the night the only way to settle him would be to pat his back until he slept.

On many occasions I would leave the room to let him fall asleep on his own, but within moments, she would pick him up because she couldn't stand to hear him cry. This created even more sleep confusion, and my child became unable to sleep with mom or dad putting him to sleep, which in turn caused more stress in our personal relationship.

We couldn't work together on this problem, because we each had differing reactions and solutions to the problem - I would go on the porch and have a smoke while he cried, she would sit on the couch and listen to him wail.

Sometimes it works out quite well with one being the nurturer, and one being the "enforcer", I view myself more the latter when co-parenting, but am now both at this point. Other times it creates a relationship where the child will constantly try to push the one that doesn't lay down the law as much.

How much time has the father spent with the child in entirety? Has he been able to create an effective bond with her that mirrors a healthy father/daughter relationship? Or has his contact been limited and now she doesn't quite accept him in the same way as a child might a parent?


Sorry, gotta cut it short. My boy woke up.
 torquoise pixie
Joined: 11/20/2008
Msg: 129
Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 9/7/2010 12:37:18 PM
Maillesmith,
it is a common believe that babies can be spoilt by too much physical attention. It has been shown it is not so, babies simply need this and it helps them to develop into healthy children and later adults. I understand only too well that it can be too much for the adult, but your spouse is not spoiling him by the attention, and if i was you, knowing what i know now, i would be a) grateful that she is doing it, b) savouring his childhood, because you have no idea how quickly it will pass, no matter how endless it seems now.
 Maillesmith
Joined: 7/13/2010
Msg: 130
Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 9/7/2010 1:10:18 PM
Its not the attention spoiling, but it was that inconsistent sleep patterns were having a negative affect on his sleep, his ability to fall asleep, and our lives.

I am not concerned with my son receiving too much attention. I spend his every waking moment with him, as I am his sole provider now. I never got to have much of it before, because of work, but now that I have it I love every moment. What caused the concern was our differing parenting styles and her inability to stick to what she planned and wanted - primarily because of her in ability to shut out the crying (I hate it too) caused confusion in the child.

As I stated, in the past week since I have solely set his sleep schedule and adhered to it, he now sleeps at the same time, every day. And first the first time in the 7 months of his life, he has slept through a night with only a single feeding. Seven nights in a row.
 Maillesmith
Joined: 7/13/2010
Msg: 131
Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 9/7/2010 1:11:07 PM
Whoops, I hadn't stated it, I intended on doing so, but he woke up from his nap and stopped me.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 132
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Gotta admit, it is easier to parent alone than co-parent
Posted: 9/7/2010 7:39:19 PM
Forgive me, I fond it a bit scary that anyone would see them self as an "enforcer" where a 7 mo old baby is concerned! I never let my kids cry at that age. They are fine, two of them near adults now, thank you.

Forgive me if I overreact, but that was my gut reaction. I do admit that I am feeling uncomfortable with some of what you say. Do you have family around you?
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