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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > What do you see as the effects of feminism on our society?      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 60to70
Joined: 7/28/2008
Msg: 51
What do you see as the effects of feminism on our society?Page 3 of 7    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)
Frankly feminism is just as guilty as being a macho man and throwing
the baby out with the bathwater. Men and women are now equally as
stupid. Men at their best....good, strong trees. Women at their best...
the ground the tree grows in. Men and women share the shame of egoism, equally.
I like certain men, I like certain women. And the rest are just variations of some
disagreeable terrain.
 ILoveFriedEggs
Joined: 6/13/2010
Msg: 52
What do you see as the effects of feminism on our society?
Posted: 7/26/2010 4:50:09 AM
when the lines between male and female are blurred, it creates a society of femnazis and effeminate men. i believe the sexes, socially at least, should stick to their respective traditional ''roles'' in their behaviours. literally behave as ladies and gentlemen. but being nice for men these days has gone to the dogs, i guess becoz they have become emasculated to varying degrees by ball busting women..argh. but also cause we live a in faster world perpetuated to the nth degree in, to choose an obvious example, the US; fast cars, toys and gadgetry, technology, casual sex, disposable relationships etc. consquently contributed to more f0cked up humans. i found myself having posted in nice guy forums with the faint hope downtrodden guys will find their balls, to counter insurgent women :D. it's a like a battlefield if pof forums are any indicator.
commonplace now is a girls gone wild mentality, in every scope. acting badly as they see fit..unfeminine. sleeping around, boozing, popping pills, increasing instances of bullying - girls the worst offenders! and other aggressive behaviour patterns. exploited, mistreated and disrespected by men as a result. self-respect gains respect no? oui oui!
et bienvenue le francais! the french was mentioned earlier. they have a sophisticated culture, flowing through to their way of life. however taken to far it isn't good either, parisiens are renowned for being snobbish. but they understand the art of seduction and must take relationships more seriously, and i feel they're aware of and don't cross certain boundaries. i can't imagine a crude french women yet in other countries, no prob! subsequently there the men treat their women like queens and women take their places beside them. i think definitely they're intuitive to the opposite sex's psyche.

au revoir
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 53
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What do you see as the effects of feminism on our society?
Posted: 7/26/2010 10:46:53 AM

Is this the result of a shift in the roles of the genders? If so, how can we as a culture/society go about fixing it?
Susan Jeffers, wrote a very good book entitled "Fear the fear and do it anyway". It's mostly geared towards women. But it applies to everyone. I found it incredibly helpful.

The book can be summed up by one phrase:

Accountability is the source of empowerment.

We can only change what we believe we can control. We can only believe that we can control something, if we accept that means that we could have controlled it yesterday. If we accept that, then we are in this boat today, is because we could have changed it yesterday, or last year, and we didn't.

You want to feel like you can change things to suit yourself? Then blame yourself for not doing it yesterday. Blame yourself for not doing it last year. You'll feel really disgusted with yourself, and very disappointed with yourself. But that sense of shame will make you realise that if you could have done it yesterday, and the whole of last year, then there is absolutely nothing stopping you doing it today, or the whole of next year, and you might as well, because if you don't, you'll just feel just as disgusted and disappointed in yourself in a year's time.

That's the issue in a nutshell.
 slybandit
Joined: 7/10/2006
Msg: 54
What do you see as the effects of feminism on our society?
Posted: 7/26/2010 12:11:54 PM
I'll swim against the current on this one. "Very few" is my answer.

1. "Feminism" is nearly a meaningless label, to start with. Everyone from early 20th century suffragettes to 21st century lesbian separatists all appropriate the label, as do a great many people whom other self-described 'feminists' describe as anti-feminists. Any label that broad (pun intended) is verging on meaningless anyhow.

2. The breakdown of the two-parent nuclear family is not attributable to 'contemporary' feminism. Anyone who thinks to the contrary really ought to read the Moynihan report, which was released in 1965.

The Moynihan report was talking about African-Americans at the time, but subsequent social developments have basically demonstrated that African-Americans were just leading the trend.

Without access to decent jobs and the means to contribute meaningful support to a family, men become alienated from their roles as husbands and fathers. You can lay that at the door of capitalism's tendency to economic reductionism if you feel like it, but it happens to be the reality.

This causes rates of divorce, spousal abandonment and unmarried births to skyrocket in the community, leading to vast increases in the numbers of female-headed households and higher rates of poverty, lower educational outcomes, and inflated rates of crime and abuse that are associated with them. This happened in the 1930's with economic collapse, and it happened again in the 1970's and onward, as decent jobs became harder and harder to get.

Keep in mind I am not hammering on single parents here. Just the opposite: parenting is a difficult job for stable couples with stable income and accumulated wealth. The further away you get from that situation, the harder it gets, and the results show.

This is all about economics, people.

A child living in a two-parent family, all else being equal, is going to enjoy a higher material standard of living, whether one parent or both are in the workforce. They'll get better care from a non-workforce full time parent, or better material support from a two-career set of parents, whether we are talking about a blended postmodern family or 1950's-style Leave It To Beaver.

The impact of a divorce can have ramifications through several generations. A child from a stable marriage where both parents worked can easily get financial help from them to complete university and post-graduate studies in an environment where a post-graduate degree is the economic equivalent of what a basic university degree used to be. That child can go on to earn more, interact with more people in a higher income-bracket and wind up married to someone with a similar income, reproducing the effect in the next generation.

Divorce or single-parenthood often leaves a single parent financially incapable of helping their child with tuition or supporting them during it, leading to a child who does not go on to higher education or trade-school educations that lead to lucrative jobs (look at what electricians make), or who graduates with a crushing debt load.

As for this business about ever-increasing narcissism, sense of entitlement, tendency to treat others as disposable commodities and the rise of the so-called metrosexual, that's largely attributable to Madison Avenue's efforts to sell us stuff, including appropriation of pseudo-feminist "You Go Girl" discourse, which has been used to sell stuff to women since the advent of the Mary Tyler Moore show.
 sarniafairyboy
Joined: 6/19/2010
Msg: 55
What do you see as the effects of feminism on our society?
Posted: 7/26/2010 4:11:30 PM


Divorce or single-parenthood often leaves a single parent financially incapable of helping their child with tuition or supporting them during it, leading to a child who does not go on to higher education or trade-school educations that lead to lucrative jobs (look at what electricians make), or who graduates with a crushing debt load.

As for this business about ever-increasing narcissism, sense of entitlement, tendency to treat others as disposable commodities and the rise of the so-called metrosexual, that's largely attributable to Madison Avenue's efforts to sell us stuff, including appropriation of pseudo-feminist "You Go Girl" discourse, which has been used to sell stuff to women since the advent of the Mary Tyler Moore show.


yeah, Madison Ave. is good at co-opting these 'movements' is it not?

recall the old "Virginia Slims" ads for the cigarette brand playing on the "Women's Liberation Movement" ?feminism?

"You've Come a long way, Baby" .now you have the FREEDOM! to smoke

the freedom to contract emphysema, lung cancer, heart disease, etc., etc.

some freedom!!
 itsallinthesoul
Joined: 6/26/2009
Msg: 56
What do you see as the effects of feminism on our society?
Posted: 7/26/2010 6:43:44 PM
You go girl!

We've come a long way baby!

Those two slogans are very powerful. When considered for what they are, I see them differently. You go girl empowers women without reminding women that they were once less fortunate, while the other clearly points to the past.

As a woman growing up, I never even gave any consideration to being suzy-homemaker, it was just assumed that I would work for a living whether I married and/or became a mother.

If feminism was supposed to give us the choice, why is that for many of us we don't feel we have that choice anymore? Should we have that choice? Are men willing to assume the role of sole bread winner for the family? Can we go backwards without women losing? What are we losing if we choose the more traditional role?

These are the questions that run through my mind and none of them have any concrete answers. It never bothered me much but now that I have a daughter to raise, I feel the need to answer these questions so I can answer them if she ever asks me where I stand. How can I do that when I don't even know myself?

How I wish I'd had another son instead of a daughter....
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 57
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What do you see as the effects of feminism on our society?
Posted: 7/26/2010 8:20:55 PM
RE Msg: 85 by itsallinthesoul:
As a woman growing up, I never even gave any consideration to being suzy-homemaker, it was just assumed that I would work for a living whether I married and/or became a mother.
I think a lot of women did think that. A lot of women I know, who got married, and who became a mother, are still working. So it's a reasonable assumption. The only thing is, that a lot of women also had to give up work to be a full-time mother.

It's wise to cover your bases, just in case.

But don't sweat it. If you told me, 10 years ago, that I'd be where I am now, I don't think I'd have believed you, and I honestly think that no-one else would either. Life never turns out how you expected it to be. So just accept it, and deal with the now.

If feminism was supposed to give us the choice, why is that for many of us we don't feel we have that choice anymore?
Choice only exists when you acknowledge that you have it. There are men who are willing to be the sole bread winner. But you have to accept that if you wanted to be a SAHM, then you had to date until you found those men, and if you aren't a SAHM, then you clearly didn't. You cannot acknowledge you have the option, without acknowledging that you had the option before, and passed it up. But if you passed it up, then you had the option before, and if you had the option before, you'll probably have the option again, if you make the effort to look for it.

Should we have that choice?
Up to you. But with more women working, less men are in work, and less men are in jobs where they can afford to be the sole breadwinner. With more women working, more men will be able to share the burden. So less men will want to be the sole breadwinner.

There are men who want to be the sole breadwinner. There are just less of them.

Can we go backwards without women losing?
TANSTAAFL, "there is no such thing as a free lunch", applies. You will always gain something, and lose something, no matter what you choose. The question is: what would you rather gain, and what would you rather lose?

What are we losing if we choose the more traditional role?
You lose direct control of your own finances. You aren't the bread-winner. So if your husband loses motivation in his job, then he needs to be motivated to get it back or find another one. Negative motivation makes for negative action. So you have to become your husband's cheerleader. You have to praise him, and make him feel good about his achievements, until he feels confident that he is worth something really valuable to you, to the kids, and to the world. Then he'll feel that he's valuable to his employer, or a new employer, and he'll go roaring into work, and will work hard, or will go out and find himself a better job.

There is also the risk that he will get over-confident, that he got where he is because of what he did, and not because you are his motivation coach. Then he'll think he can do without you, and get himself a younger, prettier, stupider version of you. So when he starts getting arrogant and over-confident, you have to take him down a peg or two, fast, to remind him just what he would lose, if he lost you.

However, as long as you make sure that he never forgets just how much you enrich his life, and keep building him up to be confident in his job, then he'll cherish you like solid gold. After all, you're the reason he's wealthy. So in his eyes, you are solid gold.

These are the questions that run through my mind and none of them have any concrete answers. It never bothered me much but now that I have a daughter to raise, I feel the need to answer these questions so I can answer them if she ever asks me where I stand. How can I do that when I don't even know myself?
It's a very good place to ask. These questions can apply to a woman at any point in her life. So what benefits her, benefits you as well.

How I wish I'd had another son instead of a daughter....
Nah. Sons are like husbands. They need a cheerleader as well. You're basically fulfilling all the needs of a SAHM, without the perks.
 sarniafairyboy
Joined: 6/19/2010
Msg: 58
What do you see as the effects of feminism on our society?
Posted: 7/27/2010 10:18:54 AM

As a woman growing up, I never even gave any consideration to being suzy-homemaker, it was just assumed that I would work for a living whether I married and/or became a mother.

If feminism was supposed to give us the choice, why is that for many of us we don't feel we have that choice anymore? Should we have that choice? Are men willing to assume the role of sole bread winner for the family? Can we go backwards without women losing? What are we losing if we choose the more traditional role?

These are the questions that run through my mind and none of them have any concrete answers. It never bothered me much but now that I have a daughter to raise, I feel the need to answer these questions so I can answer them if she ever asks me where I stand. How can I do that when I don't even know myself?

How I wish I'd had another son instead of a daughter...


yes at one time women felt they had that choice.

but did men EVER feel they had that choice?

I know that there are relatively rare situations in which a man stays at home with the kids and the wife is the breadwinner, but hey are still quite rare, and I think a little frowned upon by many, as if he is not a 'real man' by doing so. It is still far more 'acceptable' in most social circles for a woman to be a "Suzy Homemaker" as you say, if she chooses that, than for a man to be "Mr. Mom"
 itsallinthesoul
Joined: 6/26/2009
Msg: 59
What do you see as the effects of feminism on our society?
Posted: 7/27/2010 11:19:11 AM

It is still far more 'acceptable' in most social circles for a woman to be a "Suzy Homemaker" as you say, if she chooses that, than for a man to be "Mr. Mom"


That is true. If equality is the goal (which it is for me), that means equal opportunity providing one has the desire and skills to do the job. Doesn't the label of "Mr Mom" which tends to imply that he is doing "woman's work" carry for men an implied insult?
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 60
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What do you see as the effects of feminism on our society?
Posted: 7/30/2010 11:10:17 PM
men don't have a choice, do they?
work, pay the bills, fix the car, etc.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 61
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What do you see as the effects of feminism on our society?
Posted: 7/30/2010 11:41:09 PM
don't quite get what you mean, but the family likes to eat.

it's like, I am forced to work, know what I am saying?

what are females forced to do?
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 62
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What do you see as the effects of feminism on our society?
Posted: 7/31/2010 1:04:36 AM
maybe your are not a fair-weather feminist then.

have you heard of those?
 desertrhino
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 63
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What do you see as the effects of feminism on our society?
Posted: 7/31/2010 3:42:02 PM

don't quite get what you mean, but the family likes to eat.

it's like, I am forced to work, know what I am saying?

what are females forced to do?


Why are you *forced* to work? You could marry someone who supports you or go on the dole, just like anyone else.

"females" are forced to do the exact same as anyone: look out for their own and their offspring's well-being.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 64
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What do you see as the effects of feminism on our society?
Posted: 8/3/2010 4:01:01 AM
RE Msg: 97 by Bright1Raziel:
I severly dislike the word feminism anyway. Its a biased word to start with, if its okay to be femanist then it must be okay for men to matchoist? The word is rarely used in conjuction with equality, more comonly it used when a someone feels slighted by a percived (wether real or not) injust, such as equal pay. If the people espousing the virtues of feminism in the popular press were truelly talking about equality between the sexes, then they would be talking about bringing men up to the same standard as women in those areas where they are lacking (childcare and such likes for example). The word femanism is in itself biased to one gender, why cant we simply talk of equality, rather than femanism?
Because it's not the goal of feminists to achieve equality.
 slybandit
Joined: 7/10/2006
Msg: 65
What do you see as the effects of feminism on our society?
Posted: 8/3/2010 11:25:36 AM
Again, "feminist" is just a meaningless label insofar as being able to tell what a specific person believes or would be in favour of in most practical situations.

For *some* things, you could pretty reliably predict they'd be *against* them, but that does not tell you much.

It's like calling someone "right wing"-- "right wing", compared to what?

A good 80% of the population are probably "feminists" by comparison to attitudes that prevailed as recently as 1963, just like a good 80% of the population are "socialists" by the standards that prevailed in 1920.

Suppose someone rejects the label "feminist" but the way they think, behave and act is more "feminist" than someone who signs on for the label.

Suppose someone thinks, behaves and acts in a way that 90% of people who sign on for the label would call "non-feminist" or "anti-feminist", but calls themselves a feminist?

Let's all get real here. Rich people get choices. To the extent that someone is not rich, they are basically compelled by economic circumstances and the choices of others. Labelling people's choices is never going to change that fact.

The notion that you can somehow release one group of people from obligations without effectively imposing obligations or taking power and freedoms away from another group is an illusion anyhow, and anyone who thinks seriously about all this "rights" talk has got to realize that assuming otherwise is living in a dream world.

If a man is free to get divorced, the woman that marries him is not really free to organize her life around the assumption that she will have a lifetime relationship with economic support. Mutatis mutandis, this applies to women as well.

If parents are free to get divorced, children no longer have the security of being sheltered from the economic, social and emotional impact that the divorce would have on them.

If women are free to claim child support, men are no longer free to have children and not wind up with decades-long economic obligations.

And anyone who seriously thinks that social changes of any kind are not going to be engineered to favour people with power really needs their heads examined.

The divorce revolution did not "empower" women so much as it enriched lawyers at the expense of children and parents, custodial or non-custodial.

Much of those "you go girl" gains enriched wealthy women, often at the expense of less wealthy women. What use is an entitlement to share matrimonial property if there is nothing to share? What use is an entitlement to alimony if your ex can just run away, refuse to tell you where he is going and leave you without resources to find him?

Pfft, what use is an entitlement to alimony if your ex is an unemployable ex-con?

What use is a rape-shield law that prevents an accused man's lawyers from cross-examining a rape victim on her past s*xual history, if she lives in a neighbourhood so rife with crime that one more s*xual assault is unlikely to be meaningfully investigated, let alone prosecuted?
 Super_Eve
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 66
What do you see as the effects of feminism on our society?
Posted: 8/5/2010 12:51:59 PM
@ Bright1Raziel:

Devil's advocate...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-10833190

The feminism movement has indeed managed to serve "special interest" groups.

I think that gender specified "equality" negates the term under gender specified investigation.

I found this info on another website and was just curious about what some people thought...
 Super_Eve
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 67
What do you see as the effects of feminism on our society?
Posted: 8/5/2010 1:08:55 PM

Most coal diggers are men. If the group of employees that were to be most leaned on to give up financial perks were coal diggers, would you feel the same way?

If you are looking to be able to "equalize" the outcome in all cases, I have news for you, that will never happen, as all humans are different.


You missed my point entirely...

 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 68
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What do you see as the effects of feminism on our society?
Posted: 8/5/2010 1:56:50 PM

Most coal diggers are men. If the group of employees that were to be most leaned on to give up financial perks were coal diggers, would you feel the same way?
Don't you mean: "Back in the 1970s and early 1980s, Maggie Thatcher, a WOMAN, was putting miners out of work. Where was feminism opposing gender-biased sacking of occupations THEN?
 Super_Eve
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 69
What do you see as the effects of feminism on our society?
Posted: 8/5/2010 1:59:17 PM
Paul K wrote:

The proposed English budget that you referred to is being taken as being against feminism because it takes away benefits from predominatly female work places. Coal miners are predominatly male occupations........... get it?


Uhm...just to clarify...my post was addressing another poster in that there was really no negative impact that derived from feminism. I was playing devil's advocate in bringing up an article about a civil suit that brought forth a feminist special interest group. Wasn't feminism supposed to equalize the workforce, not tailor to the gender-specifized special interest groups under judicial law? Read what I said again?
:
The feminism movement has indeed managed to serve "special interest" groups.

I think that gender specified "equality" negates the term under gender specified investigation.


.

And what the fuk does gay marriage have to do with feminism?

*crickets*

I thought so.
 Inicia
Joined: 12/21/2007
Msg: 70
What do you see as the effects of feminism on our society?
Posted: 8/5/2010 9:19:53 PM
IMHO happy go lucky's post was a marvelous clear.. well spoken, avant garde post...Yet it is sad that fewer people share this view. The dearth of such avant garde views demonstrates the negative state of affairs in our society for women. IT seems very few women or men are comfortable claiming Feminism's tenets or its label. I believe few people are even familiar with feminism: they confuse the social movement of suffrage with feminism. women were entitled to vote through suffrage, however ERA became a dead issue after several failures.....

IMO Society has progressed with patriarchy as its central theme while women continue to try to fold and mold into that which will satiate the dominant power structure. AS with any oppressed minority we have assimilated into the dominant culture. There is little room for feminism and the obviously inflammatory, degrading, and oppressive statements made by many on this sight tell me the dinosaurs still kick and scream hopefully in fits of extinction.
 az109
Joined: 7/3/2010
Msg: 71
What do you see as the effects of feminism on our society?
Posted: 9/2/2010 8:14:44 AM


On the point of feminism specifically, I feel that 'feminism' has become more of a rallying cry for destroying the established ways men and women interact in society, rather than anything to do with 'rights'.
That gulf between women not being looked at as property and full blown feminism was brought to you by feminists who decided that in favor of justice and reality there should be an alternative to women being held as property. It turned out that, after all, women were actually people. Not 1/2 people, but full people. Just like men were assumed to be, and so whatever laws, customs, expectations, assumptions and so forth there were holding the ideal of women being subordinate and inferior just had to go. That going of those would have been easily accomplished by a simple recognition of fact, but since there were, and remain, male people promoting the maintenance of subordination of women, easy wasn't an option. There is a conflict being resolved by feminism. It is the conflict between tyranny and liberty. When the tyranny ends the feminists will have done their job. Women will no longer be put down by men as a matter of course. People will be essentially equal in terms of law and social custom. That's a good thing. The gulf exists because some men still stand where they started out and are left farther apart and behind progress. Knowledge moves ahead, conservatives lag behind. The full blown feminism somehow matches exactly the resistance to it. It's like any balancing of forces.
 slybandit
Joined: 7/10/2006
Msg: 72
What do you see as the effects of feminism on our society?
Posted: 10/6/2010 12:20:52 PM
So, to resurrect the thread a bit...

I'm hearing a fair bit of pretty high-flown rhetoric about how supposedly "feminism" 'accomplished' this, or that, or did this or that kind of 'damage' to society, and again, I challenge all of it.

I'll put the thesis in its most extreme form, see if that generates any response.

'There is no change in our economy or society since 1945 attributable to feminism that cannot be more effectively explained by forces that do not inherently have anything to do with "feminism", however defined. Wherever the only force working towards a particular change has been ideological feminism only, that change has either not happened at all, or only happened in a negligible way."

We'll take some major candidates:

1. Increased divorce rates and single parent families are much more fully explained by the decline of the availability of full-time, living-wage jobs for men. Women have little to gain economically from staying married to men who cannot support them, whether they need support or not.

2. Reproductive and sexual freedoms for women are almost entirely explained by advances in contraceptive technology. Reliable contraception, not ideological feminism, brought in liberalization of sexual behaviours and planned conception.

3. Women's increased participation in the paid workforce had everything to do with technological changes that greatly reduced the need for brute strength and physical durability, and enabled economic exchanges that are mediated by technology. Women's participation in fields which still call on brute strength and physical durability is still negligible compared to that of men.

4. Women's increased participation in higher education had everything to do with the combined impact of reliable contraception (smaller family sizes, later family onset) and those technological changes. Participation in higher education has also increased en masse among both genders, again due to changes in the structure of the economy.

5. Reform of sexual assault laws has in large measure been motivated by "feminist" activism. And it has been largely ineffective. The relationships between the number of sexual assaults that actually occur, the number of sexual assault complaints, the number of meaningful investigations, the number of charges and the number of actual convictions do not bear out any claim that feminist-motivated changes to the laws have had any impact whatsoever in the overal prevalence of sexual assault.

6. Post-1980's pay equity laws have in large measure been motivated by "feminist" activism and have been almost entirely ineffective to alter the pay gap between men and women.

This pay gap is almost entirely due to five factors:
(1) women's general refusal to take on dirty and dangerous jobs that pay more with less education, (2) women's general refusal to study in fields that often lead to high pay, such as mathematics, sciences and engineering, (3) women's prioritizing of 'family' and other concerns over career success, (4) women's insufficiently aggressive approaches to salary negotiations and prioritizing other workplace concerns over salary, (5) the near total absence of male movement into the "pink-collar" sector of historically female jobs.

Women who have reversed (1) through (4) in their own lives make salaries comparable if not greater than men in similar circumstances.

Where 'feminist' ideology has encouraged women to change (1)-(4), the vast majority of them have not chosen to do so. Where 'feminist' ideology would encourage men to do more in terms of (3) or (5), it's been almost totally ineffective.

Let's put it boldly: there is NOTHING that feminism has done recently, wilfully or by accident, that is not fully and better explained by something else. It's basically a lot of high-flown rhetoric without meaningful substance, something that is revealed whenever you look beyond the rhetoric at the real details.
 Inicia
Joined: 12/21/2007
Msg: 73
What do you see as the effects of feminism on our society?
Posted: 10/11/2010 4:02:47 AM
I would say that feminism is considered a dirty word and obscene.. as a feminist, non traditional, college student I became aware of many young women, as well as the young men, who were offended and hostile towards the term feminist . Many people are hostile and defensive when the term is mentioned and refuse to support any feminist agenda. Therefore, few things are supported that tout the feminist label. If they are labeled with other than feminist agenda they might be successful....so I understand why you consider that feminism with its label hasn't made the aforementioned changes...I often feel the same way when faced with the hostility towards feminism. I feel as though it is a futile effort and waste of breath to argue for equity. In fact, I sometimes feel when speaking to people in regards to womens worth and value as though I am speaking to ignorant imbeciles trained to jump through the hoops of thousands of years of monotheistic patriarchy and female chattel slavery...Often times terms that are supposed to be positive and encouraging for women are maligned and denegrated to a point where they divide the forces of women rather than unite them!
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 74
What do you see as the effects of feminism on our society?
Posted: 10/11/2010 9:41:12 AM
I'm going to beat up on you a little Inicia, but it's not personal.


I became aware of many young women, as well as the young men, who were offended and hostile towards the term feminist .

I'm betting that all of these young men and women would also be offended and hostile to any assertion that women should get less than equal treatment in the workplace or in academia. I'm old, so in my lifetime those were commonly held views. Feminism changed everything before you were born, and (mostly) for the better.

But, I remember seeing Neil Postman talk and one of the things I took away is that all change involves loss. Now, none of us wants to go back the attitudes of Mad Men, but there have been things lost. And it's just honest to acknowledge that. For example, in early feminist discussions the tendency of women to support each other and form supportive groups was highly touted. I don't know if it's still part of the literature, but the underlying facts have changed - women aren't as supportive as they were in my youth. The sewing circle is gone - the dynamic of the sewing circle went with it.

In fact, I sometimes feel when speaking to people in regards to womens worth and value as though I am speaking to ignorant imbeciles trained to jump through the hoops of thousands of years of monotheistic patriarchy and female chattel slavery

See, that's why feminism is viewed with hostility. If someone doesn't agree with you they are ignorant imbeciles who have been brainwashed. Not to mention historical revisionism. Let's look at the monotheism - Paul's letters saying that women shouldn't speak in Church is often and rightly touted as an example of patriarchy. But Paul was a bit of a douche. And the reason he wrote the letters is because women were leading services - 2000 years ago. People haven't changed in millions of years - we evolved to survive as tribal animals on the African plain. The reason feminism was so successful is because it more closely fit the way we have always treated each other - the sexist attitudes it fought against were the historical aberration. Anyone who has ever lived on a subsistence farm (that's how almost all of our ancestors lived) would know that equality is the natural human condition.
 Inicia
Joined: 12/21/2007
Msg: 75
What do you see as the effects of feminism on our society?
Posted: 10/11/2010 12:11:44 PM
beat up...??? why you agree with me.. seeing as we grew up in the same era it seems reasoanble...
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