Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  >      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 desertrhino
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 20
view profile
History
Question about waterPage 2 of 2    (1, 2)
App, you really should read the Acceptable Use and Posting Rules at the top of the Science/Philosophy thread list:

Any Thread that has More Than (2) Two consecutive Messages by Only (1) One single Individual within a 24 hour Period, will have their excess posted Messages deleted unless they are corrective Edit-Action Posts. (This is also known as "Sequential Replies", or posting (2) Two Replies in a Row. Please allow Others to Reply before you post again.)


Y'know... just so we don't see your posts deleted in pretty much every thread you "participate" in. アイツъака(ಷฺ♊ฺಷฺ)σ
 desertrhino
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 22
view profile
History
Question about water
Posted: 8/22/2010 8:00:30 PM
Uhhhh, you mean "3rd," I think. Even so, this is not the first, second, or tenth time I've seen you post 3+ messages in a row. Just saying, is all.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 23
Question about water
Posted: 8/22/2010 8:09:01 PM

Things that have water on them are wet. They are wet because "wet" is defined as being covered or saturated with water (or any liquid).

That's like saying "why is electricity electric?".


Actually, I like the question because it hints that the answer is likely going to be a lot more than just "because it is."

Indeed, it begs other questions like "Why is water even water at all? Why does it gather as it does together in pools, or come together as a solid at the temperature it does? Why, as a molecule of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom, does it rise into the air made up of singular atoms? Why does it's volume increase when it freezes?"

Can you really think of a better question than "why?"
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 25
Question about water
Posted: 8/23/2010 7:45:46 PM
Abelian has missed an important, probably the most important, reason why soap is useful: It dissolves grease and oils. Nonpolar materials.

No, I haven't. If you read something about detergents and surface tension, you'll figure out why. Here's a couple of articles to get you started:

http://www.chemistry.co.nz/surfactants.htm
http://chemistry.about.com/od/howthingswork/f/detergentfaq.htm


Not so with vegetable oil molecules. They're attracted to eachother by "Van der Waals force".

Uh, the forces between water molecules are also Van der Waals forces. What do you think is respomsible for the surface tension of water?

It's electrical too, but weaker. It results from temporary charge fluctuations in one neutral molecule inducing charge in an adjacent molecule.

Unfortunately, in your attempt to explain polar and non-polar molecules, you are confused about a few things, which apparently led you you misunderstand how soap works. (In the words of the second article I dug up for you above, it ``makes water `wetter'.'')

Intermolecular forces, in general, are called Van der Waals forces. The difference between the Van der Waals forces in polar and non-polar molecules is that polar molecules (like water) are permanent dipoles, so the dipole-dipole interaction (and hydrogen bonding) is responsible for the relatively strong dipole-dipole interaction between water molecules. That is why the surface tension of water is high.

In non-polar molecules, the fluctuations you mentioned result in transitory dipole moments which may then induce dipole moments in nearby molecules. This dipole-dipole interaction is weaker. Non-polar liquids and polar liquids are immisciblie because the dipole-induced dipole interaction between a polar molecule and a non-polar molecule is generally much weaker than that of the dipole-dipole interaction between two polar molecules. Lowering the surface tension of a polar liquid is exactly what soap does by reducing the dipole-dipole interaction between water molecules.

As I said in my previous post, soap cleans by reducing the surface tension of the water (just as I said in my prvious post). In your hurry to come up with a complicated explanation, you missed the fact that Van der Waals forces are responsible for the interaction between water molecules, too as well as the physical connection between the strength of the Van der Waals interactions and surface tension.
 .dej
Joined: 11/6/2007
Msg: 26
view profile
History
Question about water
Posted: 8/23/2010 10:09:35 PM

Actually, I like the question because it hints that the answer is likely going to be a lot more than just "because it is."

No it doesn't. Why is water wet? It actually isn't. Maybe... why are things that have water on them wet? They're wet because they have water on them. We use the word "wet" to mean "has water on" (or some other liquid). This is like "why are mountains all taller than hills?" (because that's the word we use for things bigger than hills).


Indeed, it begs other questions like "Why is water even water at all? Why does it gather as it does together in pools, or come together as a solid at the temperature it does? Why, as a molecule of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom, does it rise into the air made up of singular atoms? Why does it's volume increase when it freezes?"

I can't even fathom what someone is asking when they say "why is water even water at all?". What else would it be? If it weren't water we'd call it something else.

The rest of those questions seem silly to me, too, but that could be because of my technical background, and I could see how someone who didn't have a degree in physics or engineering wouldn't know them.

It gathers due to surface tension. It comes together as a solid at the temperature it does because the energy required to resist bonding forces keeps the water temperature at that temperature. Interestingly, water doesn't freeze when it gets to 32F. It must drop colder than that (quite a bit, in most cases), and then the energy released by the intermolecular bond heats the water back up. It rises because water molecules are composed of fairly light atoms. Its volume increases when it solidifies because of the shape of the crystal formation that occurs when it freezes. Water is very densely packed as a liquid.
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 27
view profile
History
Question about water
Posted: 8/23/2010 10:29:44 PM

"why is water even water at all?"

lol...

See: Law of Identity




Anyways, water is a fluid. Fluids are viscous and "seep" into cracks, thereby altering surfaces. They tend to simultaneously lubricate that surface as they do (but not always!). Thus, fluids alter the texture of a surface.

We call things with liquid fluids on them "wet" because of the texture alterations imposed by the fluids.

Make sense?
 .dej
Joined: 11/6/2007
Msg: 28
view profile
History
Question about water
Posted: 8/23/2010 11:02:37 PM
Side note: fluids are not all viscous. I mean, they are to an extent, but some to a very negligible extent. Air is a fluid.
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 29
view profile
History
Question about water
Posted: 8/23/2010 11:19:28 PM
"I mean, they are to an extent, but some to a very negligible extent. Air is a fluid."

I know.
 .dej
Joined: 11/6/2007
Msg: 30
view profile
History
Question about water
Posted: 8/23/2010 11:41:18 PM
I figured. Just elaborating for the audience.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 31
Question about water
Posted: 8/24/2010 6:18:03 AM

The rest of those questions seem silly to me, too, but that could be because of my technical background, and I could see how someone who didn't have a degree in physics or engineering wouldn't know them.


Exactly my point, .dej. Not everyone has a degree in engineering and physics. What it does it it invites inquiry, learning and understanding. These are perfectly reasonable questions, each leading to a greater understanding of reality and why things are the way they are.

There is a danger in being too arrogant and assuming "that's a stupid question," especially if it is a sincere question from someone with a sincere desire to learn.
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 32
view profile
History
Question about water
Posted: 8/24/2010 6:24:45 AM

What it does it it invites inquiry, learning and understanding. These are perfectly reasonable questions, each leading to a greater understanding of reality and why things are the way they are.

There is a danger in being too arrogant and assuming "that's a stupid question," especially if it is a sincere question from someone with a sincere desire to learn.


...wow. Just, wow.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 33
Question about water
Posted: 8/24/2010 6:26:53 AM

...wow. Just, wow.


Okay. Care to elaborate?
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 34
view profile
History
Question about water
Posted: 8/24/2010 6:35:01 AM
Isn't it obvious? What you just said to .dej could just as easily be said to you -- and it could be argued more so, given the degree of your bigoted insults/dismissals and the implications of the topic -- in the Tax and Realities threads.

In other words, you're being extremely hypocritical. Either that, or what you said above is completely disingenuous.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 35
Question about water
Posted: 8/24/2010 7:13:47 AM

What you just said to .dej could just as easily be said to you -- and it could be argued more so, given the degree of your bigoted insults/dismissals and the implications of the topic -- in the Tax and Realities threads.


I'll say to you now what I said to you there...you are confusing rejection of a philosophy with an inability to understand or as a moral failing.


In other words, you're being extremely hypocritical. Either that, or what you said above is completely disingenuous.


Hypocrisy abounds in the world. For instance, your insistence on reasoned and logical debates and yet your clear emotional bias towards the subject.

And your insistence that, while you can argue the broad strokes of your hypothetical world, you aren't required to address the specifics.
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 36
view profile
History
Question about water
Posted: 8/24/2010 7:16:51 AM
All I'm saying is, look at yourself in the mirror for Christ's sake and realize you've been a complete ass to me in those two threads and that you have absolutely no integrity if you actually meant what you said above.

If you don't want to respond to my "perfectly reasonable questions" and points, brought up by me with a "sincere desire to learn" without "being too arrogant" and "assuming [those] are stupid question[s]'", then please refrain from engaging me.

Not everyone has studied political philosophy. It's clear you haven't, and it's clear you don't want to -- despite your passionate opinions on the topic.

Quit kidding yourself into thinking you're an objective, open-minded, rational "scientist" with a true desire to learn. You're giving science a bad rep with the attitude you stain these forums with.


If you change your mind and decide to lay down the sword, I'll be happy to discuss with you. Until then, I suggest some introspection.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 37
Question about water
Posted: 8/24/2010 7:43:45 AM
Then read my response in that thread. And I'd suggest some maturity.
 .dej
Joined: 11/6/2007
Msg: 39
view profile
History
Question about water
Posted: 8/24/2010 6:38:06 PM

...only if the definition of Van der Waals force has drastically changed since the time of writing of every mention of it that I've read.

Either that or you took chemistry too long ago to remember:


In physical chemistry, the van der Waals force (or van der Waals interaction), named after Dutch scientist Johannes Diderik van der Waals, is the attractive or repulsive forces between molecules (or between parts of the same molecule) other than those due to covalent bonds or to the electrostatic interaction of ions with one another or with neutral molecules.[1] The term includes:

* force between two permanent dipoles (Van der Waals-Keesom force)
* force between a permanent dipole and a corresponding induced dipole (Van der Waals-Debye force)
* force between two instantaneously induced dipoles (London dispersion force or Van der Waals-London force)

It is also sometimes used loosely as a synonym for the totality of intermolecular forces. Van der Waals forces are relatively weak compared to normal chemical bonds, but play a fundamental role in fields as diverse as supramolecular chemistry, structural biology, polymer science, nanotechnology, surface science, and condensed matter physics.


[surface tension] is caused by cohesion of like molecules, and is responsible for many of the behaviors of liquids.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_der_Waals_force
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_tension
(respectively)
 chrono1985
Joined: 11/20/2004
Msg: 40
Question about water
Posted: 8/24/2010 10:11:10 PM
I think you guys are getting caught on the state "liquid" and losing track of the question of the property "wet". I admit I failed to take one crucial factor into consideration when I blindly poked at the subject, I used sensation of "wet" as my basis which is flawed when you considering quicksilver which is not "wet" based on sensation.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 42
view profile
History
Question about water
Posted: 8/28/2010 10:18:45 AM
I think we define "wetness" by how like water something is, so to a real extent, this is a "chicken or the egg" sort of question in some ways.
Another observation, water has various 'states of matter' like any substance. Frozen water and gaseous water are NOT wet.
Others have already discussed the structure of water and it's behavioral characteristics while in the liquid state.
Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  >