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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > Is Fox News Evil or Stupid? [CLOSED for further review]      Home login  
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 FrankNStein902
Joined: 12/26/2009
Msg: 126
Is Fox News Evil or Stupid?Page 6 of 26    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26)
of course POF is run by ultra liberals. to think overwise is stupid. PC runs rampent on here.

FYI: One guys owns and runs POF.




all i have to do to get kicked off of here is to quote authentic government statistics about a certain ethnic group and *bang* Email Tom Now is outta here under the guise of racial discrimination.

guess what: WE HAVE A MUSLIM AND A BLACK PROBLEM IN THIS COUNTRY.
what would Jesus do about it? i believe he'd institute racial profiling.

oh i went and said it. i may not be on here much longer as i will be banned from POF.

I bet you do not see the irony in that statement.

Much like some other fox news watchers.

They will jump up and down when they think their personal freedoms are being taken away and will be the first inline to take someone else s freedoms away, because they are of a different race or religion.

So I guess in your USA there is no freedom of speech or religion.




you liberals and ultra right wingers are bringing our country down with political correctness and entitlements. you want to take care of the whole world and do it by taxing the crap out of upper income wage earners so that others can freeload in return for votes.

So I guess then you want to bring the country back to what it was during the depression when the upper income earners where afforded the same tax breaks as they are now.




I BELIEVE AND IT IS MY OPINION that most Americans feel that same way so they tune into Fox by the millions and laugh heartily at msnbc (messnbc) and cnn commentators, who are watched by hugely lesser numbers.

So I guess the Simpson's where right.

http://www.portlandmercury.com/images/blogimages/2010/11/22/1290445753-fox-news-on-the-simpsons-20010-1290436268-2.jpg




Liberals are the reason the Tea Party even exists. giving all the money away is the reason we are in a jam today.

No incorrect. The tea Party exist because the Koch brother need a political party to push forward their agenda.

Which is extremely ironic considering:

...What few realize is that the secretive oil billionaires of the Koch family, the main supporters of the right-wing groups that orchestrated the Tea Party movement, would not have the means to bankroll their favorite causes had it not been for the pile of money the family made working for the Bolsheviks in the late 1920s and early 1930s, building refineries, training Communist engineers and laying down the foundation of Soviet oil infrastructure....

A People’s History of Koch Industries: How Stalin Funded the Tea Party Movement
By Yasha Levine
http://exiledonline.com/a-peoples-history-of-koch-industries-how-stalin-funded-the-tea-party-movement/





MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL (even liberals)

http://www.fancast.com/blogs/files/2010/12/simpsons-fox-news.jpg
 SpecificTruths
Joined: 9/19/2009
Msg: 127
Is Fox News Evil or Stupid?
Posted: 12/22/2010 9:49:07 AM
Ha! I'm starting a new job with Flint Hills Resources next year (a couple weeks). So I'll be kissing Koch arse for a bit.

I have no problem with rich people pushing agendas forward, or the Tea Party Movement, even though I'm more liberatarian than anything else. It's good to see people taking to the streets to fight for candidates to get elected.

Rather than whine about it, liberals should get up and out on the streets again.
 Email Tom Now
Joined: 9/17/2010
Msg: 128
Is Fox News Evil or Stupid?
Posted: 12/22/2010 11:47:45 AM
answers to frankie:


statement: FYI: One guys owns and runs POF.



answer: he doesn't "run"it alone. the moderators are the ones who ban you and tell you this is NOT a free speech site. i have been told that by cowboy. they do alot of the liberal work to remove free thinkers. i have rarely heard from the owner of this site.


i said:
all i have to do to get kicked off of here is to quote authentic government statistics about a certain ethnic group and *bang* Email Tom Now is outta here under the guise of racial discrimination.

guess what: WE HAVE A MUSLIM AND A BLACK PROBLEM IN THIS COUNTRY.
what would Jesus do about it? i believe he'd institute racial profiling.

oh i went and said it. i may not be on here much longer as i will be banned from POF.


frankie replied:
I bet you do not see the irony in that statement.


answer: there is no irony, only truth. there is no part of what i said that was false.


statement: The tea Party exist because the Koch brother need a political party to push forward their agenda.


answer: when the Tea Party speaks there is no mention of the Koch brothers. the Tea Party wants to get back to basics, not legaling pot smoking, not illegals having college grants, not entitlements to every 8 of 10 black babies born without an acknowledged father and using welfare money for drugs, not patting down 80 yr old grandmothers at the airport but asking questions of middleeast people, not american rights for muslims who want to kill children or poison our food supply or any of the other insane ideas the ultra libs come up with.

why do you think the democraps got spanked in the last election? pelosi is a certifiable loon and they let her return as the leader. how insane is that??? that tells it all.
 SpecificTruths
Joined: 9/19/2009
Msg: 129
Is Fox News Evil or Stupid?
Posted: 12/22/2010 12:48:49 PM

answer: when the Tea Party speaks there is no mention of the Koch brothers. the Tea Party wants to get back to basics, not legaling pot smoking, not illegals having college grants, not entitlements to every 8 of 10 black babies born without an acknowledged father and using welfare money for drugs, not patting down 80 yr old grandmothers at the airport but asking questions of middleeast people, not american rights for muslims who want to kill children or poison our food supply or any of the other insane ideas the ultra libs come up with.

The Tea Party has good merits, as well as poor ones.

I just don't get why the GOP feels the need to get into people's business. This "moral agenda" of the Tea Party is hypocritical in many respects. Lots of Tea Partiers smoke pot (at least around here they do), yet want to not only continue, but ramp up the worthless, overly expensive "war on drugs." They want to get rid of abortion rights, and ban gay marriage. What a waste of time. If they spent all this time/energy/funding on improving fiscal conservativism, the economy could be on the way back much sooner than otherwise.

You talk about free speach, but not freedom from the government getting into someone's personal life, eh?

All GOP and Democratic agendas are the "same old same old" but at least the TP is advocating for some change. Some is better than none.



guess what: WE HAVE A MUSLIM AND A BLACK PROBLEM IN THIS COUNTRY.
what would Jesus do about it? i believe he'd institute racial profiling.

oh i went and said it. i may not be on here much longer as i will be banned from POF.

Real funny. Not because of what you typed, but that you typed it at all. I'd bet the farm you don't have the stones to go out in public and say that, even though you're well within the law and your rights to do so.

Oh, and god doesn't exist, never has and never will. Take that out of the TP movement and I just might vote GOP again. Otherwise, I'll stick to my liberatarians, even though I'll be long dead before one gets elected.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 130
Is Fox News Evil or Stupid?
Posted: 12/22/2010 1:30:21 PM
Fox News is very, very good at what it does, and that is twofold:

1. Make money through high viewership
2. Promote and validate a certain political worldview

That disqualifies it from being stupid, but, unfortunately, not its uncritical viewers.

MSNBC attempts to compete in the same biased fashion, but:

1. Its target demographic tends not to watch news all day
2. Its semblance of journalistic integrity gets in the way
 FrankNStein902
Joined: 12/26/2009
Msg: 131
Is Fox News Evil or Stupid?
Posted: 12/22/2010 1:31:57 PM

answers to frankie:
statement: FYI: One guys owns and runs POF.
answer: he doesn't "run"it alone. the moderators are the ones who ban you and tell you this is NOT a free speech site. i have been told that by cowboy. they do alot of the liberal work to remove free thinkers. i have rarely heard from the owner of this site.

The moderators do not run the site, they enforce the rules that the owner has agreed to.

So the owner can set the rules anyway he wants, just like if you owned a forum web site, you could do the same.

It is his house not yours, thus his rules apply.

Like it or leave it.




i said:
all i have to do to get kicked off of here is to quote authentic government statistics about a certain ethnic group and *bang* Email Tom Now is outta here under the guise of racial discrimination.

guess what: WE HAVE A MUSLIM AND A BLACK PROBLEM IN THIS COUNTRY.
what would Jesus do about it? i believe he'd institute racial profiling.

oh i went and said it. i may not be on here much longer as i will be banned from POF.

frankie replied:
I bet you do not see the irony in that statement.

answer: there is no irony, only truth. there is no part of what i said that was false.

I think you fail to understand what irony is.

I was pointing out that you are ranting about something you the goverment should do something about. (ie. infringe on someone rights) while complaining your rights are being taking away. Typical hypocritical rant.

Oh and I see you are still here, so I guess you where wrong.




statement: The tea Party exist because the Koch brother need a political party to push forward their agenda.

answer: when the Tea Party speaks there is no mention of the Koch brothers. the Tea Party wants to get back to basics, not legaling pot smoking, not illegals having college grants, not entitlements to every 8 of 10 black babies born without an acknowledged father and using welfare money for drugs, not patting down 80 yr old grandmothers at the airport but asking questions of middleeast people, not american rights for muslims who want to kill children or poison our food supply or any of the other insane ideas the ultra libs come up with.

Oh course there is no mention, why would they expose themselves for what they really are.

A political party created to protect business interests.

Did you look at the link that I posted?

The Koch brothers are the main backers behind the tea party, and that can not be denied.



IMO
You have come up short in proving any of your points / rants and just proven that you are a racist.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 132
Is Fox News Evil or Stupid?
Posted: 12/22/2010 2:24:39 PM

just proven that you are a racist.

Proven? More like "admitted." I have to admit that I do have a modicum of respect for people who admit to being a racist, as opposed to people who try to keep it thinly veiled through the use of code and plausible deniability, or worse, people who do not even have a clue as to how much racism they harbor.
 FrankNStein902
Joined: 12/26/2009
Msg: 133
Is Fox News Evil or Stupid?
Posted: 12/22/2010 4:58:47 PM

1. Make money through high viewership

High for cable news networks, but only a faction of what ABC, CBS & NBC has for numbers.




2. Promote and validate a certain political worldview

Agreed.

Fox News Viewers Are The Most Misinformed: Study
First Posted: 12-17-10 09:42 AM | Updated: 12-17-10 04:49 PM

UPDATE: Fox News senior vice president for news Michael Clemente has responded to the study* which found that his network's viewers are more misinformed about American political issues than any other channel. In a statement to the New York Times' Brian Stelter, Clemente disparaged the University of Maryland, where the study was done.

"The latest Princeton Review ranked the University of Maryland among the top schools for having ‘Students Who Study The Least’ and being the ‘Best Party School’ – given these fine academic distinctions, we’ll regard the study with the same level of veracity it was ‘researched’ with," Clemente said.

"For the record, the Princeton Review says the University of Maryland ranks among the 'Best Northeastern Colleges," Stelter notes. "It was No. 19 on the Review’s list of 'Best Party Schools.'"


* Link to Study
Voters Say Election Full of Misleading and False Information
December 9, 2010
Poll Also Finds Voters Were Misinformed on Key Issues


...Those who watched Fox News almost daily were significantly more likely than those who never watched it to believe that most economists estimate the stimulus caused job losses (12 points more likely), most economists have estimated the health care law will worsen the deficit (31 points), the economy is getting worse (26 points), most scientists do not agree that climate change is occurring (30 points), the stimulus legislation did not include any tax cuts (14 points), their own income taxes have gone up (14 points), the auto bailout only occurred under Obama (13 points), when TARP came up for a vote most Republicans opposed it (12 points) and that it is not clear that Obama was born in the United States (31 points). The effect was also not simply a function of partisan bias, as people who voted Democratic and watched Fox News were also more likely to have such misinformation than those who did not watch it--though by a lesser margin than those who voted Republican...

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/brunitedstatescanadara/671.php?nid=&id=&pnt=671&lb=
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 134
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History
Is Fox News Evil or Stupid?
Posted: 12/23/2010 10:16:57 AM
It's a business, nothing more. The goal of nearly all businesses are to make money, nothing more.

The fact that so many companies can make so much money by appealing to the least use of our brains, and the greatest use of our tendency to be xenophobic and to blame others for our problems, shows just how far humanity has to go, just to get to a basic level of average cognitive function.

However, that is a good thing, as life gets very boring when you have nothing to do. So at least we can say that humanity has much to keep us interested in life, and much to achieve.
 FrankNStein902
Joined: 12/26/2009
Msg: 135
Is Fox News Evil or Stupid?
Posted: 12/31/2010 1:59:06 PM
It's a business, nothing more. The goal of nearly all businesses are to make money, nothing more.

Yes it is just a business, but they are in the business of disinformation, which is why some people have issue with that.

Now I know this thread has a slant towards Fox, but I know that all cable news networks and also most main stream media (in North America) is to blame for this trend, as news should not be a profit business.


To understand what is happening I would suggest reading some or all of the following:

Anti-intellectualism in American Life
Richard Hofstadter.

Amusing Ourselves to Death: Public Discourse in the Age of Show Business
Neil Postman

Unreliable Sources: A Guide to Detecting Bias in News Media
Lee Child

Griftopia: Bubble Machines, Vampire Squids, and the Long Con That Is Breaking America
Matt Taibbi

The Closing of the American Mind
Allan Bloom

Idiot America: How Stupidity Became a Virtue in the Land of the Free
Charles P. Pierce
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 136
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History
Is Fox News Evil or Stupid?
Posted: 1/1/2011 6:57:41 AM
I agree with Frank N. I too think that the decision made back in the sixties, to consciously aim to make high profits from news shows., is one of the larger reasons why ALL "news" shows suffer a quality problem.
Personally, I suspect that a significant reason why Fox has many supporters in their obviously purposeful slanting of the news, is that the perception is common, that OTHER news sources have a slant the other way. I have no proof, but I suspect that Fox itself believes that they are somehow providing balance, by slanting opposite to what they perceive as a left bias on other stations. I certainly HAVE heard many fans of Fox say that, when Fox's bias was pointed out to them.
If someone studies the STUDY of History, eventually they will have it pointed out to them that ALL humans have natural biases built into them, and even those who do work carefully to avoid letting their biases influence them, will not be perfect in their results. Thus in reporting the news, even the MOST fastidiously anti-bias reporters and producers will occasionally let bias creep in. What we hope for in the study of History, AND in news reporting, is that with enough people TRYING to report in an unbiased fashion, that by taking MANY sources into our consideration, we might be able to get a complete and balanced picture of things.
The idea that PURPOSELY accepting bias is in line with seeking balance, however, is a COMPLETE SELF-DELUSION. It is most akin to someone thinking that if their partner has missed hitting a target to one side, that if they shoot too far to the OTHER side, that the target will fall. You can't correct a lie, by lying in a different way. And you CERTAINLY don't provide ANY kind of public service by catering to the prejudices of your fans and viewers, helping them to believe they know what's going on when they are WRONG, because you will simply be leading them into MORE failure.
I would not say Fox is Evil. I don't use religious terms like Evil, because I don't believe in "bad magic." I would say that Fox News is a mismanaged, self-deluded company, which nevertheless makes a profit for it's investors, because profit is what they focus on. It's a shame that they masquerade as a legitimate source of news, because they are helping to prolong mistakes being made in this country, by purposely misleading their viewers to continue down erroneous paths. Nothing to be done about it though, except to try to contribute CORRECT information to the mix when one can.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 137
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History
Is Fox News Evil or Stupid?
Posted: 1/1/2011 3:56:15 PM
While Dan Rather was factually correct about Bush's chickenhawk behavior during his Vietnam era "service" there were technical difficulties about authentification of documentation used. That was enough for CBS to duly fire him more for corporate and political considerations rather than journalistic standards. Beck on the other hand, can lie repeatedly and still hold down his job.
http://mediamatters.org/research/201012300001

Fox consistently and repeated lies to the public, rarely apologizing or issuing a correcton, using instead the tactic of moving on to the next lies.
http://mediamatters.org/research/201012210005

On the rare occassion that Fox did fire journalists, it was because the journalists refused to lie following Fox's demands they do so.
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Jane_Akre_and_Steve_Wilson
Akre and Wilson were fired for daring tell the truth.

Fox profits most when they lie, manufacture false stories and amplify innuendo and lies. There is no other network that has created so much division for profit and created crazed killers with impunity.
 junipermoon
Joined: 3/1/2006
Msg: 138
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History
Is Fox News Evil or Stupid?
Posted: 1/1/2011 4:07:44 PM

So are they that stupid or are they that evil?


does it have to be one or the other?

seems to me, they're evil and stupid.
 4rumninja
Joined: 11/30/2009
Msg: 139
Is Fox News Evil or Stupid?
Posted: 1/6/2011 6:27:25 AM
Is this thread Evil or Stupid? FOX News is a business it has investors,unlike liberals, many believe that a free market system is a Good thing. So back to the question evil or stupid? FOX news can't be either, it is a corporation not an individual so the premise of the question is flawed. But as usual it gives Liberals a chance to Bash someone or something that doesn't agree with their World view.


Although I would question as to how you came to the conclusions that POF is run by a bunch of ultra liberals?
Seriously? It probably is difficult for those with Liberal views to see the Bias of the moderators on this site because they read so many posts that agree with their opinions as those opposing opinions are usually deleted. I started a thread about Diversity of opinion it was deleted, Ironic eh?
 FrankNStein902
Joined: 12/26/2009
Msg: 140
Is Fox News Evil or Stupid?
Posted: 1/6/2011 9:54:22 AM

...So back to the question evil or stupid? FOX news can't be either, it is a corporation not an individual so the premise of the question is flawed. But as usual it gives Liberals a chance to Bash someone or something that doesn't agree with their World view...

...Seriously? It probably is difficult for those with Liberal views to see the Bias of the moderators on this site because they read so many posts that agree with their opinions as those opposing opinions are usually deleted. I started a thread about Diversity of opinion it was deleted, Ironic eh?

This rant is typical.

First they complain that people should not have anything to say because it is a corporation, but the second they feel that a corporation does something they do not like they are the first in line to complain of a bias.

Seriously, make up your mind, do you want corporation to be able to do what ever they want or do you only want them to do what you want?
 rpl55
Joined: 3/22/2009
Msg: 141
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History
Is Fox News Evil or Stupid?
Posted: 1/6/2011 11:54:54 AM
4rumninja said:


So back to the question evil or stupid? FOX news can't be either, it is a corporation not an individual so the premise of the question is flawed. But as usual it gives Liberals a chance to Bash someone or something that doesn't agree with their World view.


It's funny - when I pointed out that George Bush was a lying, treasonous, murderous, neocon scum, I was called a traitor, and a typical liberal. Now, when I point out that Obama is a lying, treasonous, murderous, neocon scum, I get called a racist, and labeled a conservative. Hmmm - on second thought, maybe it's not that funny.

4rumninja said:


It probably is difficult for those with Liberal views to see the Bias of the moderators on this site because they read so many posts that agree with their opinions as those opposing opinions are usually deleted.


I can relate to this with a specific example. In the "Islamophobia" thread I posted that the good Imam Rauf, the man behind the "ground zero mosque" was in fact a member of the CFR, with citations to the CFR's site (in other words, a 100% factual post), an ex mod posted, in this ex mod's typical style, some half-witted insult (the truth didn't fit with his delusions) so I, in turn, posted an insult, knowing that our mutual insults would be properly deleted by the mods.

Imagine my surprise when my initial, 100% factual post, was also deleted. From this I can justifiably conclude that at least one current mod will delete perfectly legitimate posts if the post conflicts with his/her world view.

RPL
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 142
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History
Is Fox News Evil or Stupid?
Posted: 1/6/2011 8:10:49 PM
The question remains about how we allow ourselves to be bullied, and manipulated by sociopaths in the guise of "fair and balanced".

http://addictinginfo.org/new/?page_id=342
 hungry_joe
Joined: 6/24/2006
Msg: 143
view profile
History
Is Fox News Evil or Stupid?
Posted: 1/9/2011 7:50:08 AM
Awww Forget about it I get my news from several sources sometimes HLN, CNN, MSNBC, FNC, the internet (google news) the, News and Observer, Fayetteville, News, radio. yada yada yada. I think most folks do, so it doesn't matter too much. I figure most people are in the middle and lean a little one way or another depending on the topic. Happy New Year everyone.
 Thunder1000
Joined: 3/17/2009
Msg: 144
Is Fox News Evil or Stupid?
Posted: 1/10/2011 12:06:19 AM
All news/media is biased... There is no such thing as completely unbiased news. Which is exactly the way it should be for who in their right mind would want the prosecutor handling their defense in a court room? Think you'd get a fair trial if only one side got to tell their side of the events?
 Onegreattongue
Joined: 2/21/2009
Msg: 145
Is Fox News Evil or Stupid?
Posted: 1/12/2011 10:22:10 AM
All news is biased. CNN,ABC,NBC, pretty much all of them are biased towards the left. Fox news is biased towards the right.

I think it's only fair that there be a news channel for conservatives. They should not all be liberal.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 146
Is Fox News Evil or Stupid?
Posted: 1/12/2011 4:11:01 PM
Respectfully, CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC et al are all heavily biased to the right.

Look at the coverage the right wing rallies this summer garnered on the mainstream media. Usually it was a few dozen people somewhere, but they got extensive coverage before, during and after. Glenn Beck's rally received far more coverage than Jon Stewart's despite the fact that Stewart's had three times as many people.

Compare that to the Battle in Seattle. Tens of thousands came from all over; people weren't told it was going to happen by their news casters; it took the media completely by surprise; and today I doubt if one journalist in 20 could tell you why it happened. The mainstream media pays absolutely no attention to the left - but they fawn all over the right.
 FrankNStein902
Joined: 12/26/2009
Msg: 147
Is Fox News Evil or Stupid?
Posted: 1/28/2011 11:08:15 AM
Score one for Stupid.

Jon Stewart has taken many shots at Fox news over the year but last night he took it to a new level.

If you enjoy watching someone getting a verbal ass kicking you will enjoy this.



Jon Stewart Hits Back At Bill O'Reilly For Defending Nazi Rhetoric On Fox News

Canada - http://watch.thecomedynetwork.ca/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart/full-episodes/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart---january-27-2011/#clip406411

USA - http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-january-27-2011/bill-o-reilly-defends-his-nazi-analogies
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 148
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Is Fox News Evil or Stupid?
Posted: 1/28/2011 1:15:00 PM
"Imagine my surprise when my initial, 100% factual post, was also deleted. From this I can justifiably conclude that at least one current mod will delete perfectly legitimate posts if the post conflicts with his/her world view. "

Actually, this is result does NOT indicate a bias on the part of the mod, necessarily. I had it explained to me once, in regard to another post, that when you INSULT someone, the mod will delete the insult, AND will then delete any posts that are RELATED to the insults, in order to maintain the flow of the thread. Deleting what was referred to might have been a side effect of the fact that you stooped to insult someone, and have NOTHING to do with the content you posted otherwise.
 BalderDog2
Joined: 1/6/2011
Msg: 149
Is Fox News Evil or Stupid?
Posted: 1/28/2011 1:37:23 PM
Whenever I watch Fox News, I'm reminded of George Orwell's Two Minutes' Hate--except with Fox News, it's not two minutes; it goes on and on.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 150
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History
Is Fox News Evil or Stupid?
Posted: 1/29/2011 5:48:19 AM
Yes, the problem with ALL slanted "news," whether to the left, to the right, or to an imaginary center, is that it doesn't INFORM anyone at all. When someone lies to you, even if you KNOW they are lying, you have no way of knowing exactly how they are lying. We all end up with the illusion that we know what's going on in the world, but actually we only know what a very few over-paid and over-opinionated talking heads SAY is going on. That's part of why we are so often unpleasantly surprised by human events.

I DO appreciate that Fox is more open and obvious about their slants, in that they commonly put up outright and easily verifiable lies in print (they are famous for mislabeling the official political affiliation of people they are "reporting" about). That makes it much easier to realize that they have lied yet again. Some of the left-slanted reports are more subtle, requiring a greater than average level of understanding of English and of factual analysis, in order to properly question their reports. So it's a real tragedy for CONSERVATIVES, that this network serves them so badly. By lying to their own target audience, they increase the likelihood that the audience will deal with the world from a MISINFORMED place, and thereby increase the number of mistakes they will make. So it's not really valid to say that the Conservative point of view is well served by Fox.
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