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 mysterywoman999
Joined: 3/13/2011
Msg: 401
What Are The Reasons For Getting Legally Married?Page 17 of 32    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32)

I fail to see how that law is biased in favour of women.


This seems to be the only question so I'll answer it.

You are correct in the statement...
So the law "reams" the higher wage earner by your logic. So the law favours low wage earners of either gender.


Now seeing as only 30% of women earn more than men then the law at least 70% of the time favors women.

This is not bashing women. It is just fact.


You are still missing the point. The LAW favours no one. Where I live, the law does not need to be changed because the law is neutral. Would everyone be happier if women's average salaries were more on par with men's? Probably. It is heading that way sooner rather than later, fortunately.

Also, I never said that the law "reams" the higher wage earner. I stated that YOU feel that way. I don't think a person with greater ability to pay more towards supporting his or her own children is being "reamed", and I don't think a person who walks away with half the value of the marital home is being "reamed." I tried to explain that to you in terms other than money, but you don't get it.
 4ms4me
Joined: 4/24/2010
Msg: 402
view profile
History
What Are The Reasons For Getting Legally Married?
Posted: 6/8/2011 10:36:33 AM

Although I agree that it's difficult to determine who contributed what, how much, and when with respect to lengthy marriages, I would consider it unfair if a couple, upon marriage, moved into the home of one individual and a great deal had been invested in that home by the party originally owning it, had their name solely on the title, had owned it for a number of years (or not) and the couple decided to divorce within a short period as opposed to a lengthy period (I'm sure a determination of what constitutes a lengthy or short period of time could be legislated). It would be relatively easy to determine who owned the real estate prior to marriage or how much had been invested to that point. Concessions in such cases should be made, rather than a blanket 50/50 division of assets. Better yet, sell the home before marriage and move into a different one together where you've put both names on title and contributed equally to down payment and mortgage.


Yanno, I am currently dating a man - we do not live together, I have bought a home and he rents. He is also on disability, and though my salary isn't all that great, it's still considerably more than his. He "contributes" to the relationship by what he does for me, and that is very important, certainly more important than money. As far as I'm concerned, that entitles him to some consideration should I die; he's important to me, and I would want to honor and respect what he's given me that is not tangible, cannot be touched. As things stand now, he would have 1/3 of my assets, my two kids would get the other 2/3 should I die.

If we ever take the step of co-habitation or marriage, I would certainly want some agreement on division of assets should we split. Whatever we agreed on (and I'd most likely want to stick with one-third, two-thirds), it would have nothing to do with what *I* owned vs. what he didn't own. The intent of our relationship is to make each other's life better, in whatever way we can. It's not that he can improve my life financially all that much, but his time/efforts toward my comfort and well being are just as valuable as money. If he cooks a meal for me, at home, it saves me effort/time and money, since I won't even be tempted to eat out. If he vacuums or cleans the bathroom, mows the lawn, he contributes to the upkeep of the house and it's value. If he takes my dog out while I'm at work, he saves me the cost of dog-walker. I don't have a vehicle, he does, and he drives me where I want to go - saving me money again. Why shouldn't I recognize those contributions by entitling him to something materially, even though he may have paid nothing toward the down payment and minimally on the mortgage?
 RazzleRoadRunner
Joined: 4/13/2007
Msg: 403
What Are The Reasons For Getting Legally Married?
Posted: 6/8/2011 10:45:22 AM

Marriage has become, not an institution where 2 adults are in a sponsorship/sponsored relationship,but an equal partnership, and as such, needs to have a plan in place to dissolve the partnership equitably should the need arise to do so.


Now, here is a GEM of advice.....

But, let's take it to another level Mr Sleepy as follows:

-2 men decide to purchase a business and they contribute equal portions of money to buy the business.
-the business becomes successful, due to their many talents and excellent decisions and they both are pleased with the amount of money they are being paid through the corporation. They both are enjoying a good standard of living.
-then one day.........man #1, becomes displeased with man#2 and they both agree to disolve the business and go their separate way.
-they are unable to resolve the issues of how the assets are dispersed between the two and more arguments are the result of that escapade.
-finally, they put the matter before the courts to decide their plight.


Here is something to think about........most businesses have a backup plan in the event that a partnership or corporation fails to make it's partners and/or board of directors unhappy. So WHY, don't couples devise a backup plan in the event their relationship doesn't succeed? And.........why don't they plan their exit out, at the same time that they are planning their exit in?

Gads......I think I should become a freaking lawyer! Nah....everybody hates lawyers, so I'll stick to doing what I do best.
 chameleonf
Joined: 12/22/2008
Msg: 404
What Are The Reasons For Getting Legally Married?
Posted: 6/8/2011 10:51:08 AM
Why shouldn't I recognize those contributions by entitling him to something materially, even though he may have paid nothing toward the down payment and minimally on the mortgage?

By the sounds of it, you have already taken care of it legally, otherwise your children would automatically be entitlted to the whole kit and kaboodle of anything that is solely in your name. You've made plans for death - many people also see the need to make preparations for the possible death of a marriage. If it doesn't happen, the only thing that does cause eventual separation is death.

P.S. It sounds like you have a wonderful relationship
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 405
What Are The Reasons For Getting Legally Married?
Posted: 6/8/2011 11:36:41 AM

I agree with much of what you say above, but also want to mention how many men there are who are angry about women's increasing autonomy and independence, saying that women have become careless and uncaring about family and that is why there are so many divorces. I'm sure you've seen read the rants of such men on these forums, as I have. It seems to me that the complaints of men would be pretty much solved if there were a return to the days when women were encouraged and expected to be financially dependent on the male. No worries about her leaving, thus no worries about alimony or child support.

Indeed-it seems to come out qute often in threads having to do with the financial aspects of dating and courtship.Because women are now seen as citizens in their own right,and have some backing by law,to have equal opportunities in employment, education and economic opprtunity(independent finances, access to credit in her own right,control over her own money),some men seems to think that meant women would be taking over all financial responsibilities of continuing the species,that women would be the ones doing the approaching and asking in dating, and that men would just lay back and soak up all that obigation-free p*ssy, that they would have the ego boost of fatherhood but none of the work or expense. Yes, that is somewhat of an exaggeration for effect, an observation/comment on the hyperbolic side. Again, this is not all, probably not even MOST men, but the ones who seem to think that way are the ones that can tend to be the most vocal about their disappointment that equality does not work the way they THOUGHT it was going to. But perhaps all this yelling about "equality" being "cherry-picked", etc is really driven by resentment over the loss of socioeconomic control over the female gender? that would certainly account for all the b*tching about women thinking equality means "having her cake and eating it too."
Let me say right here that I am not talking about all men, or even most men, just a vocal subset who thought that "equality" meant that MALES would "get to have their cake and eat it too". Since that has not turned out to be the case,then they want to go back to having the socioeconomic upper hand. Again, this is just my own personal thoughts and observations, it is about a handful of men(relatively speaking)not all or most men, and is not presented as any fact, rule, misandrist information gleaned from a misandrist website,etc.
Look, most of us other than very young members, are at dating sites because in some way or another, Life has peed in our romantic/life partnership cornflakes. Our locations, lifestyles, schedules or personal philosophies about common social venues limit our opportunities to meet large numbers of available and romantic-minded adults of our opposite gender,so we've decided to explore the idea of internet dating sites. I wonder how many people these forums have purely scared the HELL out of,lol.

As long as men and women believe that men are essential to the child-rearing process and that marriage (or some kind of stable couple-dom in which both contribute to the whole) is the best environment in which to raise children, then men have some leverage. If men withdraw from that, and if women come to understand that men are not needed and cannot be relied upon either for emotional or financial support, then what? What role would men play in society, as women become more able to support themselves and their children, become better educated, and begin to fill the power positions that men now fill? Could men become even more powerless than women were 100 years ago, viewed as little more than breeding stock, and chattels for women's pleasure and use?

while no one can begin to know how much I hate to say this, but going by some of the threads in these forums, this is EXACTLY what a small but vocal group of hurt, angry men seem to want!

really don't see men or women doing themselves any favors by focusing on how independent and self-sufficent they must become, and making the protection of assets of paramount importance.

I agree with you,but again, perhaps this impression is being cause by a relatively small-but vocal- group of men and women,but who believe themselves to have been victimized by the institution of marriage.
For myself, as a widow, I sometimes feel like I am an indirect victim of divorce because so many "theoretically " available men are so damaged by it. There are not that many widowed males in the 45-65 age bracket, and the never-married males in that age bracket,while they can be great friends and enjoyable company, seem to be just overgrown kids. There are a few those men, of my acquaintance ,who do live independently, manage their own financial affairs,etc, but do seem to still have stronger-than-usual tether to families of origin,and their dating and relationships almost seem to take the form of "crushes" rather than an adult-to-adult relationship. As buddies or brother figures they are great,and as far as their emotional maturity referenced to pair-bond relatinships, well, it is what it is.

Where I live, the law does not need to be changed because the law is neutral.

while this is true, I think we do need to remember that a divorcing couple who cannot privately come to agreement about dividing assets and child custody and support,will have the matter decided by a judge,and generally speaking, the former life-partnes WILL have professional representation.
Perhaps child support and division of assets should be decided by a jury trial? Yes, that would be expensive and impractical,but it might remove some of the complaining about the divorce laws being biased.

As for a high-earning individual being financially taken advantage of by a lower-earning spouse in the event of a divorce,there's a SIMPLE solution to that problem...marry someone who is your socio-economic peer, and outsource having and caring for children( surrogate mothers and nannies),adopt a child already present and in need of parents, or refrain from having a family.
Cindy O
 RazzleRoadRunner
Joined: 4/13/2007
Msg: 406
What Are The Reasons For Getting Legally Married?
Posted: 6/8/2011 11:46:41 AM
Post #448..............EXCELLENT!!

See, women are more likely to be fair & just with their spouse.........but that's JMO.

As I've said before, some to most men only care about the size of THEIR WALLETS and marriage isn't the problem, PEOPLE are.


Anyhow......there are 2 types of wallets,
the wallet that you carry on your person and it contains money which is a tangible asset and the wallet that you carry in your heart and it contains all other intangible assets that are far more valuable than anyone's gold can buy. Nevertheless, it is a type of currency that is priceless.

So........what's in you WALLET!!!

Everybody hold onto your wallets............men are approaching!!
 chameleonf
Joined: 12/22/2008
Msg: 407
What Are The Reasons For Getting Legally Married?
Posted: 6/8/2011 12:15:33 PM
See, women are more likely to be fair & just with their spouse.........but that's JMO.


I'm glad that's just an opinion and not fact. You don't get to be my age without having seen any number of types of relationship dynamics between people, young and old. From actual observation, and not just a gender based slanted opinion, I see just as many women as men treating each other fairly and justly in their relationships as I see the converse of each. I've observed my grandparents generation, my parents generation, my own and my children's generation, who are both in their late 20s. It depends on the people themselves, not the gender. Unfortunately, the gender bashing that is spouted winds up being taken as fact by those who are susceptible to not observing and gathering their own facts and all it does is serve to perpetuate the bashing on each side of the gender coin. It's no wonder many younger people have become susceptible to these slants, having so many come from divorced households and having to listen to the bashing their parents do of the opposite gender. Guess who their learning this crap from?


As I've said before, some to most men only care about the size of THEIR WALLETS and marriage isn't the problem, PEOPLE are.


If the statement were changed to "some people only care about the size of their wallets", I could agree with the above statement, but as it stands,

vvvvv Though those statements are made from personal observation, that's certainly not been my experience of men, at least not one that can be made in a general, broad brush manner - some men can be like that, but my experience is not that "most" are - of any age - any more than women of varying ages are. Perhaps it has something to do with locale and in some cases more to do with the type of people attracted...and I'm not saying that in a bad way - our own looks and personality sometimes attract others that we're the least desirous of attracting through no fault of our own.
 RazzleRoadRunner
Joined: 4/13/2007
Msg: 408
What Are The Reasons For Getting Legally Married?
Posted: 6/8/2011 12:22:47 PM

There are not that many widowed males in the 45-65 age bracket, and the never-married males in that age bracket,while they can be great friends and enjoyable company, seem to be just overgrown kids.


Ain't that the truth........I'm 39 and I see the same shyte on this side of bricks as well, and I'm looking in the 34 to 43 years of age range. Mostly, I tell them to head back home to mommy and daddy, because the parents haven't raised them to adulthood yet.
Either that, or they just want to stay children in their minds and play adult social games.......but those adult social games will bite them in their arse eventually, and it will be very painful.

If they persist, well my dogs will bite them in the arse and that will be considerably less painful, but will get the point across.....

Just a little tooth in fresh meat joke there everyone
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 409
What Are The Reasons For Getting Legally Married?
Posted: 6/8/2011 12:29:15 PM
yes, post # 448 is an excellent example of a working committed relationship that does not involve living together. The man does not have much money so he brings more time and effort-and a set of wheels(lol) to the table.
Again, if a couple chooses this route, please be sure, that by documentation in a will, medical power of attorney,etc, that one partner is not denied things that would have been automatic were there an official marriage in place.
Another thing that mature adults might want to look at is how marriage might impact Social Security Retirement(or Disability) benefits, I've been told that in some cases a marriage between 2 SSR beneficiaries resulted in a reduction in income. I do know that SSI(Supplemental Security Insurance) is needs based,not based on paying in during ones' working career-it covers those who are not covered by Social Security Disability-marriage or living with a person who has income will affect SSI.
There is also the question of one marriage partners income and assets being yanked into the pot, so to speak, to cover long-term care for the spouse,catastrophic illness or something in one spouse's past( or even present) behavior coming back to bite BOTH partners. This is where what Unix mentioned-trusts-can be an invaluable protection.
Cindy O
 mysterywoman999
Joined: 3/13/2011
Msg: 410
What Are The Reasons For Getting Legally Married?
Posted: 6/8/2011 1:14:15 PM

Better yet, sell the home before marriage and move into a different one together where you've put both names on title and contributed equally to down payment and mortgage. If there's a disparity in income and amount to be paid for down payment and mortgage payments, it should calculated on percentages.


That would be a better plan. I, for one, would not want to move into someone else's place and never have the feeling that it was "ours". Similarly, I see the house that I own now as very much a symbol of being on my own, paying my own way and keeping it the way I like. If I were ever to marry, I'd much prefer that we get a place that is "ours".

I understand about percentage contribution, but there are those who can never get past the whole "but I paid for more" mentality. There are people who want to stop and calculate which is worth more: cutting the grass once a week or cleaning the bathroom every day. Whatever. Let 'em keep score. I have no interest in such things.
 chameleonf
Joined: 12/22/2008
Msg: 411
What Are The Reasons For Getting Legally Married?
Posted: 6/8/2011 1:44:59 PM

There are people who want to stop and calculate which is worth more: cutting the grass once a week or cleaning the bathroom every day. Whatever. Let 'em keep score. I have no interest in such things.

I hear ya, and yes, fresh beginnings for a couple starting out is the best route to go, when it can be done. Your whole mentality is the reason you are in a great relationship, even though you currently aren't living with your guy. I'm in the same position - life's grand. I've never been so relaxed in my entire life. My guy did live with me for 5 months from December through April while he was in the middle of a job change and relocating his residence, and it gave me an incling of what it would be like living with him 24/7 - but like you say, my place that I personally worked hard to obtain and I found myself becoming somewhat territorial in my mind. I'd have to sell and move with him into something else but I'd definitely have my financial ducks in a row beforehand so I wouldn't have to worry about it under stress, should it ever come to that. Personally, I prefer it just the way it is - at least for now - maybe forever...who knows.
 Capitano_Blaugh
Joined: 3/18/2008
Msg: 412
What Are The Reasons For Getting Legally Married?
Posted: 6/8/2011 4:41:25 PM

Post #448..............EXCELLENT!!

See, women are more likely to be fair & just with their spouse.........but that's JMO.




Man, you are one of the funniest broads here....

What utter bullshit that women treat their soon-to-be-ex-spouses more fairly and justly.....

Here, check out what whatshername said in message #448:


If we ever take the step of co-habitation or marriage, I would certainly want some agreement on division of assets should we split. Whatever we agreed on (and I'd most likely want to stick with one-third, two-thirds), it would have nothing to do with what *I* owned vs. what he didn't own.


SHE wants the larger portion. SHE is "likely to want to stick with one-third, two-thirds"....

... geez, I wonder why?

And, I'm sure that whatshername would be just fine and happy in a loving way when the ex decided to push for half by taking her to court.

... good comedy...

 4ms4me
Joined: 4/24/2010
Msg: 413
view profile
History
What Are The Reasons For Getting Legally Married?
Posted: 6/8/2011 5:17:51 PM

SHE wants the larger portion. SHE is "likely to want to stick with one-third, two-thirds"....

... geez, I wonder why?

Because I have two kids and he has none. Given that there are quite a few guys here who are inclined to track everything to the penny, and figure that she should leave with nothing more than what she came with, yeah -- I'd say my generosity and consideration far outshines them.

And, I'm sure that whatshername would be just fine and happy in a loving way when the ex decided to push for half by taking her to court.
... good comedy...


If he went to court, he might be able to get support from me, as well as 50%, even if the pre-nup specified that he wouldn't. It'd be tough if he succeeded, but you know what? I've re-started from absolutely nothing, within the last 10 years, when some dipsh!t of a guy decided that even though my money supported him for three-quarters of our relationship, I was entitled to nothing when he decided to end the relationship. It was a very conscious decision not to let that experience make me bitter and untrusting towards all men, and it took some effort on my part. Ultimately, I'm not going to let fear of what might happen dictate the rest of my life and my relationships. Its true I may suffer financially and materially for it, but I think living without trust and in fear is a greater hardship.

 RazzleRoadRunner
Joined: 4/13/2007
Msg: 414
What Are The Reasons For Getting Legally Married?
Posted: 6/8/2011 5:41:21 PM
No Worries..........it's still better than what Mr Sleepy was offering! First he was gonna have his spouse booted out of the house by his children(ie the Corporation) upon his death and the surviving spouse would receive nothing. Then he changed his mind and was gonna allow her to stay until she decided to vacate or she passed away in the same house, and then his children could have the 100% share of the house and to hell with the spouse's children from another marriage.

..............and that's no joke,!

But thanks........I do try to keep a good sense of humor, when I'm short on poker chips and the dice isn't always rolling in my favor.
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 415
What Are The Reasons For Getting Legally Married?
Posted: 6/8/2011 8:50:47 PM
Indeed, it is starting more and more to sound like the thinking is- to exit a failed marriage with nothing but what you brought into it is "fair" and "OK" if you have a vagina...but if you have a penis and come into a marriage with the lesser income and assets, then you are entitled to a 50% split.
Wait a minute...what was all that screaming about subsidizing the lesser earners' lifestyle being unfair and biased? Or does that allegation of "bias" only apply if the partner with the lower income and premarital assets is female? There should be one set of rules for divorces where the woman has less income and assets, and different set of rules when it is the man who is the lower income? THEN the 50% split IS fair?

OK, to be "fair", perhaps there was an intent to inform/warn the female poster with the lower income SO that marriage or cohabitation could be financially risky,but it sounds like she was already well aware of that, and considers it an acceptable risk. Some here may not be able to comprehend that-and probably don't WANT to comprehend it.
Cindy O
 Capitano_Blaugh
Joined: 3/18/2008
Msg: 416
What Are The Reasons For Getting Legally Married?
Posted: 6/9/2011 7:08:44 AM

Because I have two kids and he has none. Given that there are quite a few guys here who are inclined to track everything to the penny, and figure that she should leave with nothing more than what she came with, yeah -- I'd say my generosity and consideration far outshines them.


My point, simply, is that you, like most women, would NOT be HAPPY to hand over 50% of your present worth or have to pay future earnings to a past spouse.

Razzle and many women believe that they are far more magnanimous than any man is when it comes to money when a split happens and I'm calling Bullshit.



 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 417
What Are The Reasons For Getting Legally Married?
Posted: 6/9/2011 8:06:30 AM

No Worries..........it's still better than what Mr Sleepy was offering! First he was gonna have his spouse booted out of the house by his children(ie the Corporation) upon his death and the surviving spouse would receive nothing. Then he changed his mind and was gonna allow her to stay until she decided to vacate or she passed away in the same house, and then his children could have the 100% share of the house and to hell with the spouse's children from another marriage.


Again spinning.....The life estate was always there I never said she would be booted from the house.

This woman that is being so generous has no life estate that was mentioned. So it looks to me as he is the one booted.

As far as her leaving with nothing that is not true she would be able to build her own assets and provide for her own children.

Remember I am providing a home for her w/o any rent mortgage. She is only asked to pay half of the common expenses The cost of house repair falls only on me.

With these advantages she should be able to be provide a very nice inheritance for her children as I would for mine.

Not one of the posters that demanded that the 50/50 split was a minimum of being fair,one even said 80% of the ex husbands money should be paid to the ex wife if there was kids evolved,said the 1/3 -2/3 split was unfair to the man in this case.

See these double standards are why a pre nup is needed. A agreement before the demise of the love that women seem to say that it is all about.

I purposefully did not post until now to see where they would go with the 1/3-2/3 split.

They praised it because it was posted by a female if a male would have suggested such he would have been castigated!

One more little fact that needs to be looked at.

She admits she has no car and he provides transportation.

A car and all the upkeep taxes and gas can easily account for 1/3 or more of a families budget and she also stated he contributed to the other living expenses.

Taking that into consideration the measly 1/3 is not so generous is it. In fact I doubt he would even get back the amount invested to start with.

So in the end he would end up loosing in the deal.

The agreement says nothing of a split in assets if one of them decide to split. In that case he would really be screwed.

Sorry ladies but this generous offer doesn't even come close to being as equal to or have the ability for the lower earner to build assets of there on as mine does.

To the ladies out there that are not looking to profit off of a marriage and are finding it hard to find a man willing to marry-cohabit and co-mingle the money maybe this display of greed and lopsidedness,will give you insight as to why we are a little gun shy.

They offer 1/3 of assets she may not even have at the time of her death and nothing if the relationship is ended before.

No thanks I'll stick to the pre nup where both parties have rights that are protected.

The opposing side here has shown with out doubt they are Argumentum ad hominem.
 4ms4me
Joined: 4/24/2010
Msg: 418
view profile
History
What Are The Reasons For Getting Legally Married?
Posted: 6/9/2011 8:08:54 AM
Capitano, I would not be exactly happy to hand over 30% either, but that seems fair to me. I might indeed feel differntly in the pain and disappointment of a breakup, which is why a pre-nup would be a good idea.
I agree that selfishness and cruelty are not defined by gender.

yawn, I believe your bias is showing. Does the pre-nup you've got give her the equivalent of 30% of assets you may not even have when the split or death happens? Tell me it gives her half and I'll even revise my opinion of you.
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 419
What Are The Reasons For Getting Legally Married?
Posted: 6/9/2011 8:29:11 AM
No........ it does better it gives her the opportunity to build her own assets as much as she desires and I have no claim to them at all.

She could easily amass more assets and wealth than I. My way both can work together and for ourselves at the same time.

She has no rent/mortgage so she could save all of that money no insurance on a home she could save that too. she is saving 50% of a light bill. and 50% of food cost.

Lets add that up for say 10 years.

very modest rent..........$600.00
very modest electric.....$75.00.....this is her half
very modest food cost...$250.00....her half
Total.............................$925 dollars a month
12x$925.00=$11,100.00
so she is already saving over eleven grand a year.
$11,100.00x10years=111,000.00 so in 20 years if she put back just the money she would have used to live on her own she could have $222,000.00 that is close to 1/4 of a million! That is above any other retirement plans she may have! she could easily amass a Half a million in 20 years!

Where my plan is more than fair to the woman that I marry!

Is your plan that good?
America is the land of opportunity not guarantee! So the assets she has is totally up to her as mine would be totally up to me.

And as I pointed out my agreement is better because it provides for divorce/splitting up and death yours only has a payout to him if you die first and most likely would not even reimburse his expense.

Sorry but your deal is much to lopsided to even be thought of as fair.
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 420
What Are The Reasons For Getting Legally Married?
Posted: 6/9/2011 8:54:30 AM
Cap'n
I don't think ANYBODY is very happy when a marriage fails and asets have to be split,child custody divided, etc.
But it is what it is.
I doubt that magnanimity is particularly a gender trait,either, but who can know how a person will react to a marriage dissolution and the ensuing matters of asset division that has not happened and may not happen??
I suspect that quite often financial anger, over-concern about protecting assets in any subsequent marriages,can come from the issues behind the divorce that have little to do with income and assets,but money, the witholding or "protection" of money ,etc is the largest and handiest "weapon" or instrument of vengeance.
OTOH, every day there are couples who realize that their marriage has ceased to function without there having been some sort of betrayal or crime involved. They sit down with attorneys or a mediator, or even work it out between themselves, with a minimum of outside participation(or hindrance,lol).
Yes, there are cases where a spouse who brought fewer tangible assets to the marriage comes out of the deal with an improvement in their financial picture. Yes, there are cases where a spouse with a lesser capacity to earn or provide for themselves for a legit and verifiable reason, comes out with what looks like a bigger piece of the pie. I have absolutely no doubt that there ARE people who use strategic marriages and divorces for financial advancement, but I don't think that can be presumed to be an extremely common "career plan",regardless of gender.
In divorces of older couples in 2nd marriages, from what I have seen, the end result is about like what happens when you break a yo-yo in half and give the 2 halves to 2 people...they each have a yo. Not much you can do with a yo,right?

However, as your post commented, I seriously doubt that ANYBODY is "perfectly happy" to have their assets and financial quality of life reduced if that situation becomes a reality. And as far as "most women"-good grief this thread is RANK with men who are rabidly unhappy with having had to hand over half their worth and/or a portion of future earnings to an ex-wife and possibly kids.
I'm sorry to say this, but what I see is an element of anger with men, that if they can't have access to the p*ssy, why should they continue to pay or share assets for it. There seems to still be a strong element among a subset of males, of a sense of "ownership entitlement", I'm sorry to say...even if the ex-wife was a self-supporting individual who contributed greatly to the acquistion of tangible assets. Perhaps the "marriage reform" that needs to be made, is to eradicate an undercurrent of the old "ownership" mindset in some men?
In a sense, I do get it-nobody likes to have to keep making payments on something that isn't working anymore, the warranty has expired, but the contract you entered into does not permit you to stop making payments, not without consequence.
Is it possible, when the script is flipped and an ex-wife has to yield up assets or make payments to a spouse who has lower income, that she DOESN'T have the sense that she "owned" the man? That she recognizes divorce as the dissolution of a partnership, not loss of ownership?
Edit...
As a general observation, I think a lot of street-smart women would NOT accept a living situation that is essentially a "non-paying tenant on sufferance" arrangement. Regardless of what some piece of paper might say, there would be the emotional factor of living under a roof that one had no claim on-never mind if she just plain doesn't LIKE the house. Add to that, any redecorating, improvements, upgrades or refurbishing she does will essentially be money tossed down a rathole?
I don't know about anybody else but my responsewould be "sorry, no deal."
Cindy O
 4ms4me
Joined: 4/24/2010
Msg: 421
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What Are The Reasons For Getting Legally Married?
Posted: 6/9/2011 9:30:07 AM

And as I pointed out my agreement is better because it provides for divorce/splitting up and death yours only has a payout to him if you die first

Maybe you should re-read what I wrote before making those assumptions.


and most likely would not even reimburse his expense.

What expense, exactly? Are you privy to my financial affairs, and you know how much there might be available to divvy up among the three most important people in my life? I don't mind admitting it's not going to make anyone wealthy, but your assumptions and desire to make me (and women in general) the 'bad guy' is blinding you.


No........ it does better it gives her the opportunity to build her own assets as much as she desires and I have no claim to them at all.

As I pointed out, if you'd read the original post, my sweetie is on disability. There's not much chance of him working again for anything near enough to "amass wealth". My pre-nup, if he and I were going to go that route, doesn't touch his car, which is about the only asset he has. His best bet would be to win the lottery; we've already agreed that if EITHER of us wins, we split it 50/50. If he should happen to inherit something substantial, that would be entirely his to use as he saw fit. However, he possesses a generous spirit, so I think he'd use it for the benefit of both of us. And before you go jumping to the conclusion that there is something I expect him to inherit so I can get my greedy little hands on it, believe me, it's about as likely as a lottery win.


very modest rent..........$600.00
very modest electric.....$75.00.....this is her half
very modest food cost...$250.00....her half
Total.............................$925 dollars a month

Sure, I agree this would be a great situation for a renter. But a spouse is NOT a renter and this is a deal that I'd only take if I planned on saving some money before I left, in return for putting out now and then. Although I could probably find something for about the same money and I wouldn't have to put out, but whatever. Anyway, lets take a look at what I had envisioned I might expect from my guy, if he moved in ...
Rent: --- $400
Electric/utilities --- $0
Food cost --- whatever he felt comfortable with; my guess it would be between $150-$200 per month.

But this is because I would consider him a "life partner", not a parasite or someone from whom I need to protect myself.

A car and all the upkeep taxes and gas can easily account for 1/3 or more of a families budget and she also stated he contributed to the other living expenses.

At this time we do not live together, he gives me no cash toward living expenses; some of the stuff he does for me saves me money. As regards the car, I contribute gas money; if we were to live together, I suspect the car would become a shared expense.
 cap_n_mORGAN
Joined: 7/3/2009
Msg: 422
What Are The Reasons For Getting Legally Married?
Posted: 6/9/2011 10:23:41 AM

Sure, I agree this would be a great situation for a renter. But a spouse is NOT a renter and this is a deal that I'd only take if I planned on saving some money before I left, in return for putting out now and then. Although I could probably find something for about the same money and I wouldn't have to put out, but whatever. Anyway, lets take a look at what I had envisioned I might expect from my guy, if he moved in ...
Rent: --- $400
Electric/utilities --- $0
Food cost --- whatever he felt comfortable with; my guess it would be between $150-$200 per month.

But this is because I would consider him a "life partner", not a parasite or someone from whom I need to protect myself.


A great deal for putting out now and then?

Lets look at that frame of mind......I now pay about the same as I would if married and I promise I can get what you call "putting out" a lot more regular than "now and then."

So how is her "putting out now and then" a benefit to me?

People are you actually seeing the frame of mind of these posters?

Now lets look at the money you said he would owe you to marry you....$400.00 rent and $150.00-$200.00 a month in food.
On the low end that would be $550.00 a month

In my deal her half of living expenses would be no more than $400.00.

And she saves her own money that I can never get any of.

And you say my deal is raw for her,and your deal is great for him.

Sorry but I don't see that.

Even if on disability he has a income. He most likely qualifies for drastically reduced rent. My daughter is a single mother with two kids going to school to be a nurse.

Her light bill is a flat $50.00 a month on a assisted program
Her water is included in the assisted rent of $94.00 a month he surely would qualify for a similar rate of rent.
Yet you think charging him $400.00 is a deal for him?

Sorry but there are holes in your story that you could drive a semi through.

Your deal is praised for its fairness and mine demeaned as me being greedy. Yet mine has many more benefits that yours mostly for the lady I would marry. My only benefit would be no litigation for my assets.

Anyway my pre nup is mostly for her protection as I have over 90% of my assets in LLC's that if divorced could never be considered marital assets.

So w/o the pre nup her assets would be the only ones considered in a settlement,w/o the pre nup it would be me keeping her assets.

Some people are so insistent on do it the way it has always been done they fail to see there is a better way of doing it.

One that is fair to both partners whether it is marriage or co-habitation.

As far as living in my house if she had a place we could live there I would pay half the cost of the common living expenses.
She would have the cost of paying for the house if it wasn't paid for and any up keep expenses.

I would rent my house out and pocket the rent money.

Or vice versa she could pocket the rent from her house if she lives with me.



But this is because I would consider him a "life partner", not a parasite or someone from whom I need to protect myself.


Where did I call anyone a parasite? Those are your words not mine.

If I marry again it will be my third...the odds of a 3rd marriage lasting is under about 25%.
Has nothing to do with a parasite. Would you invest in a company that only had a 25% chance of making you money?

Most sane people wouldn't.

The thing is I have been vilified for my pre nup yet is is head and shoulder above yours.

Even the ones that was soooooo adamant about a 50/50 split being the only fair way has praised you for the generosity of your 1/3-2/3 split with the 2/3 of course going to the lady.

Wonder why?
 4ms4me
Joined: 4/24/2010
Msg: 423
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What Are The Reasons For Getting Legally Married?
Posted: 6/9/2011 11:01:14 AM
Yawn, I agree, your pre-nup is absolutely fine for the lady and for you. I actually thought you were attacking what I'd written just because, but I see now you are feeling quite misunderstood so I apologize for contributing to that. I am sure that your lady, when you find her, will be very happy with this arrangement, and I wish you and she the very best.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 424
What Are The Reasons For Getting Legally Married?
Posted: 6/9/2011 11:04:34 AM
All I can say is that I'm getting married not entering into a business relationship, so whatever it is, it is. People are welcome to argue about pre-nups and all sorts of other plans for divorce, but I'm not going to go into a marriage with a plan for getting a divorce. If I was going to do that, I'd just as soon not be in a relationship at all.
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 425
What Are The Reasons For Getting Legally Married?
Posted: 6/9/2011 11:12:20 AM
Some general thoughts...
If you have multiple failed marriages(regardless of who did what to who) and you accept the stats for the apparently abysmal success rate of 3rd or more marriages, why would you even contemplate getting married again? Fer petes' sake, save a couple of trees! Forget the pre-nup and just don't keep trying to do something that experience has shown doesn't work well for you.

As far as people who have low incomes due to certain reasons, quite often those reduced rate rents only apply to specific communities, If it is in fact a subsidized rent, I do not think a landlord can be legally forced to rent to someone on a subsidized rent program. What appears to be a "reduced rate" utility service may simply be a "budget" plan where the customer pays a set amount every month of the year, and if the payments do not cover the actual costs, then either the bill has to be settled to a zero balance, or the remaining balance will be rolled into the new budget plan,and the "usage" estimate bumper upwards resulting in a higher monthly payment for the next year.
Yes, it may appear that there are all kinds of financial breaks extended to those on reduced or fixed incomes, but oftentimes there is a trade-off for those "breaks".
Agreed ,living in one partners' current residence and renting out the other home can be an option, perhaps a wiser one than selling the property, but still I think that the partner living "rent free" could tend to create an imbalanced dynamic.
I don't disagree with pre-nups in principle, or REASONABLE"wealth conservation" strategies to enable one to leave something to one's children in the event of a catastrophic illness-or a prolonged one.
But when people have become so terrified of the financial aspects of marriage failure that they have to insulate themselves in piles of paper and convoluted ownership strategies for their present assets, IMO it begs the question "why bother? Just don't marry or cohabit."
No one here is against taking reasonable steps to ensure that a financial crisis caused by someone looking to "bootstrap" themselves into a better financial position through strategic marriage and divorce, is not one's lot in old age. That goes for both genders. But this bashing of genders, marriage , and divorce/asset division laws based on the ASSumption that one gender is getting away with legal piracy due to "biased" laws, seems to be becoming a common OBSESSION with the other gender.
There is a SIMPLE solution to the whole "biased divorce laws"...
DON'T GET MARRIED TO BEGIN WITH. If you are continously focused on your fears and anxieties,concerned with keeping everything "equal", guess what. You are going to absolutely SUCK as a partner and self-fulfill your fears. Who in the WORLD wants a marriage that resembles nothing so much as an UNfriendly game of Monopoly???
Cindy O
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