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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe      Home login  
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 Kardinal Offishall
Joined: 2/26/2010
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the UniversePage 10 of 19    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19)
mccullough:



while many supposed cosmologists may make marks on paper and discuss something from nothing. so far they have failed to physically and publicly demonstrate "something coming from nothing" to which there could be no other explaination. until then their talking nonsense.


I believe you may be missing the underlying points. The "marks on paper" are entrenched in the wider backdrop of contemporary physics, but specifically the two main pillars, namely quantum mechanics and relativity.

Also, the locution 'something from nothing' has a different meaning than the way in which you're construing it. You appear to be equivocating between two different notions.

On the one hand, you were discussing the origin of "matter," asserting that it must have come from somewhere, and that its only possible etiology was a deity of some sort.

On the other hand, you now are referring to "something coming from nothing" in a more general sense.

The two are not necessarily the same, and indeed we have good reason not to conflate them. The fact that our universe exists, even where the total energy appears to total to zero, does not entail that nothing exists 'explanatorily prior' to it (not to confused with 'temporally before', as the standard interpretation of big bang cosmology makes that notion unintelligible).

The key, again, is not to construe the common locution 'something from nothing' amongst cosmologists as meaning other than they intend it to mean.



It's not written in the stars, that there has to be a natural explaination for everything. That was made up by people. It still hasn't been proven, although it's been assumed by a lot of people.


It's called methodological naturalism; it's a heuristic that has proven itself in stunning fashion, and there has never been any reason to abandon it with respect to any phenomena so far.

You can read all about the success of this heuristic in a massive, extended case study referred to as 'the history of science'.



nothing wrong with it. They have no scientific proof of their position that the appearance of matter was a natural event because it remains unexplained.


Are you familiar with the basics of the inflationary paradigm in modern cosmology?



the fact that physical laws are such that they allow life to exist amidst so many possibilities of universes with physical laws that would not, combined with the fact that matter exists at all with no apparent natural explaination suggest a supernatural one.


This style of reasoning actually has a name: it's called an 'argument from ignorance', which can roughly be defined as 'we don't know with good certainty what explains y, therefore x', where x is some subjective belief based in little more than intuition.

Likewise, you're committing the same error here as you did with your "god as the origin of matter" assertion. You'll need to become acquainted with the various multiverse hypotheses in cosmology. Once again, these are naturalistic proposals, and to think that god is the only game in town is simply flatly wrong.



in some cases, Science is no longer searching. they are claiming that some thing came from nothing without explaination or proof.


The claim is that it is not requisite to invoke a deity to explain the origin of this universe, as in there are naturalistic models available which are grounded in known physics which could hypothetically explain what needs to be explained.

One key point here is that these models have a basis in known physics; your theistic hypothesis, on the other hand, has no basis in anything substantive, since diddly squat is known empirically about any gods.

Theists like yourself err mightily in thinking that the only hypothesis in town is god. The fatal error is in believing that there is some ineluctable necessary connection between a universe's existing and a god creating it. That in no way, shape, or form follows.

However, I do understand that you dearly wish that to be the case.

I invite you to talk about the properties of this god that you have in mind. I'm curious.
 null_locus_accede
Joined: 6/25/2011
Msg: 227
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/8/2012 9:25:18 AM
Is all just a competition to nog the egg.
And in the 6 seconds it takes to figure out what that even means.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkJqKOb0ZhY

 Samhein
Joined: 7/20/2010
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/8/2012 9:41:09 AM


You can read all about the success of this heuristic in a massive, extended case study referred to as 'the history of science'.

I simply must applaud all of your post.

Mc = owned.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 229
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/8/2012 10:03:30 AM
Well kardinal sense you ask. I tend to think of God as formed of uncreated particles very small much smaller by far than the smallest created particles but still physical they just do not interact.
They exceed the created particles by by some vast quantity being infinite as the created particle are but by some vaster quantity but limited in number when considered in number in relation to each created particle.
Thus there are limit to Gods knowledge and memory.
His memory does not extend infinitely backwards and he forgets and he does not know the exact infinite future
i do not believe he works miracles as his intrusions would inevitable work greater evil than good.
and because of his limited intelligence he could not correct for the evil nor dispense them fairly.
while i believe there are an infinite number if big bang in the universe irregularily spaced and therefore non- repeating, all sharing the same physical law, ocaams razor.
So there are a limited number of things to think about putting a further limit on his intelligence.
Which I like to say is about 10,000 IQ as an abitrary figure to have something to consider.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/8/2012 10:16:36 AM
and most if not all of what you claim to be a naturalistic models grounded known physics. are pseudo scientific fantasies and the only thing they have going for them is they don't use the word God. they don't have a single shred of evidence. just a lot of endless speculation.
 Samhein
Joined: 7/20/2010
Msg: 231
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/8/2012 10:51:13 AM
Infinites are equal

Somebody just likes using big concepts without knowing what they mean

I'll leave you to guess who it is
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/8/2012 11:36:49 AM
you can have a infinite number of particle form an infinite though lesser in number, number of planets in infinite space. there are greater and lesser infinities.
 mccullough64
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/8/2012 2:59:20 PM
or to put it another way you can have one (1) particle per cubic foot of Space or one million (1,000,000,000) particles per cubic foot filling infinite space. but the one million (1,000,000,000) particles per cubic foot number more than the one (1) per cubic foot although they are infinite too.
and although everything here may be logically ordered, how it got here may not be.
Play "The Logical Song" By Supertramp.
 Balsamica
Joined: 2/24/2012
Msg: 234
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/8/2012 8:45:16 PM
I didn't see anything in that article for or against a deity.

What exactly is his argument?
 boatswamper
Joined: 3/11/2007
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/9/2012 9:47:56 AM

I tend to think of God as formed of uncreated particles very small much smaller by far than the smallest created particles but still physical they just do not interact.
I thought god was supposed to look like humans? Doesn't the bible say something to the effect that we were created in his image? *confused*
Interesting thread. Lots of well reasoned posts, for the most part. A few loony ones too just for good measure.
 Samhein
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/9/2012 4:01:26 PM

you can have a infinite number of particle form an infinite though lesser in number, number of planets in infinite space. there are greater and lesser infinities.

No, you really can't.

Like I said. Somebody wants to talk about something they don't understand.

Infinities are equal. You don't have 'lesser' infinities.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/9/2012 4:14:46 PM
You like to deny things to get my goat. i proved you wrong twice.
 Paul K
Joined: 3/10/2006
Msg: 238
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/9/2012 4:26:02 PM
Hey Sam...........

You wrote:
"Infinities are equal. You don't have 'lesser' infinities."

The word "equal" means that there is the same number of, the same weight, the same........... you get the idea, right? Bottom line is that in order for "things" to be "equal", there has to be a way of determining the amount.........

How then can you say that "infinities" are equal, when infinity cannot be counted?

If you can count and give me a definite number for the amount of "X", then how can that be infinite? If you have a definite number, then it is not infinite.

Paul K
 musicfellow38
Joined: 2/17/2011
Msg: 239
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/9/2012 4:40:15 PM
and THIS is why "infinities" are just a concept and not an actual thing. Nothing is infinit but it makes for fun hypothetical discussions and argument enders such as "double dumb ass on you.... to infinity!" and then the other person goes and adds "1" and things get REALLY serious.
 Balsamica
Joined: 2/24/2012
Msg: 240
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/9/2012 7:41:04 PM
Will someone explain to me in a nutshell what Hawking's argument is?

Something about parallel universes?
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/9/2012 8:23:17 PM

Will someone explain to me in a nutshell what Hawking's argument is?

Try the first post in this hidden thread - http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts14166375.aspx
 mccullough64
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/9/2012 9:23:09 PM
sean carrol said many things, that is made a lot of claims but didn't prove any of them.
he said that the origin of the universe was spontaneous . it could have been god that made it appear, he hasnt demonstrated that it wasn't.
and he doesn't have an explaination of why it did either and that what he needs to prove that the appearece was a natural event it not enough to say that it just happened which would be magic. to be naturalistic science you have to explain how it happens. when things appear out of thin air from nowhere that's magic. except apparently when your talking about all of matter then it's completely natural.
and then he talk about how in quantum physics if you wait long enough anything will happen. what exactly is this based on. will Santa show if i wait long enough on christmas eve,law of quantum physics? and if its if you wait long enough anything "that can happen" will happen don't you have to prove that matter just appears before you assume it will and then you have to explain why it isn't appearing now.
and that there are all these universes.
that wasn't part of Einsteins original thought. that's a retrofit,
and there's no physical, publicly demonstratible evidence that they exist.
so far there just a fantasy that lot of scientist talk about and many even believe in but there's no evidence and there all pretty much make-believe. Same for parallel universe and higher dimensions all about as real as Alien spacecraft buzzing the earth and wormholes.
 lyingcheat
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/9/2012 10:02:37 PM

sean carrol said many things, that is made a lot of claims but didn't prove any of them.

You and he have much in common it seems, except that he is starting from the entirely rational idea that matter and the universe self-evidently exist.


he said that the origin of the universe was spontaneous . it could have been god that made it appear, he hasnt demonstrated that it wasn't.

He hasn't demonstrated that pixies riding unicorns didn't create it either. Is he a fool or what hey?


and he doesn't have an explaination of why it did either and that what he needs to prove that the appearece was a natural event it not enough to say that it just happened which would be magic.

Not quite, since it self-evidently exists now and seems to be governed by perfectly natural and deducible laws. The non-parsimonious explanation therefore is that some natural process will account for it being here.

'Magic' would be positing an invisible 'creator being' out of thin air when there's absolutely no evidence for such a thing, and, as far as we can tell, no need.
 Balsamica
Joined: 2/24/2012
Msg: 244
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/9/2012 10:19:42 PM
That post goes to the Hawking article and doesnt tell me anything more than I didnt know.

Can anyone EXPLAIN it in plain English???????
 mccullough64
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/10/2012 8:51:17 AM
@ lying cheat
well now your assuming quite a few things and all in your favor and that's not science. science is about experiment and public demonstration and you just can't.
 Kardinal Offishall
Joined: 2/26/2010
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/10/2012 12:54:07 PM
mccullough:



I tend to think of God as formed of uncreated particles very small much smaller by far than the smallest created particles but still physical they just do not interact.


This is interesting, because I think you just committed your notion of god to a spatiotemporal context. I say this is "interesting," because there's no reason to presume that such a context exists explanatorily prior to our universe (or multiverse, should that be the case).

In other words...you are presuming something which cannot be granted with any certainty. Your whole belief in a deity, by definition, therefore hinges entirely on a very tenuous assumption.

Recall that on the standard (or at any rate, most common) interpretation of big bang cosmology spacetime comes into existence during the big bang. It would be a cosmic presumption (pun not intended) on your part to think there's a spacetime context where you have assumed it.

Granted, some cosmologists have proposed models that do just that; but, unlike you, they do not pretend to know with certainty at this point that such a context exists/existed.

Here's a core upshot of all this: If, say, theoretical cosmologists were to conclude next week, that there was no spatiotemporal context that exists explanatorily prior to our big bang, your god hypothesis would then become completely untenable; it would not even be able to get off the ground.

You do realize this, right?



They exceed the created particles by by some vast quantity being infinite as the created particle are but by some vaster quantity but limited in number when considered in number in relation to each created particle.


So, wait. Are you implying that these particles are infinite in number...but not really?



Thus there are limit to Gods knowledge and memory.


This is another extremely ambitious claim, no less problematic that your previous assumption. Everything we know scientifically about mentality demonstrates that there are strong reasons to think that its instantiation is constrained in various ways.

In other words, since god supposedly has a mind, that mind must be actualized within the constraints that govern minds more generally.

What evidence do you have that, given those constraints, an IQ of "10,000" is even physically possible?

Sure, you can deny having to frame your assertions within the constraints I alluded to; but then you're simply asserting your own subjective intuitions. If so, there's absolutely no reason for anyone to believe anything you say. It would just be mccullough's singular intuition in a vacuum.

Moreover, there's the problem of 'folk-psychology'. There's a vast scientific literature on this topic and much of it has provided evidence that humans' perception of the world is filtered partly through it.

We 'automatically' interpret actions in ways that make reference to beliefs, desires, etc. (in other words, mentality). We have a 'lust' to see mindedness in all sorts of places, even places where it doesn't exist (hint, hint).

We're a hyper-social primate species that has had this system of adaptations drilled into our mind. If you were a slug, you would not be perceiving the world in mentalistic terms at all.

When humans hear a sudden strange noise emanating from the attic, oftentimes their immediate and reflexive cognitive framing of the occurrence is "Who's that?" Notice that this is in spite of the very real possibility that there may be no one in the attic, no agent at all.

I fear that when mccullough ponders the universe, he experiences a similar 'who dunnit?' reflex, without stopping to think that maybe it's just his mind imposing it without any good reason.



and he doesn't have an explaination of why it did either and that what he needs to prove that the appearece was a natural event it not enough to say that it just happened which would be magic. to be naturalistic science you have to explain how it happens. when things appear out of thin air from nowhere that's magic.


What he (Carroll) was briefly alluding to is not "magic" because he was speaking of a hypothetical way in which the origin of this universe could be explained naturalistically.

By contrast, when you say god did it, you're insinuating magic, because you have no inkling of exactly how that might be done -- though intuitively it probably 'feels' like you know what that would entail. Make it more explicit.



and then he talk about how in quantum physics if you wait long enough anything will happen. what exactly is this based on. will Santa show if i wait long enough on christmas eve,law of quantum physics?


Anything that 'can' happen. And it isn't wise to attempt to gain traction on this particular issue by simply appealing to one's intuition.

Is it possible in this sense for Donald Trump to spontaneously find himself with a third leg? What ever the answer is, I don't see how raw intuition will deliver anything we should grant much credence in.



don't you have to prove that matter just appears before you assume it will and then you have to explain why it isn't appearing now.


Some of the notions that Carroll and others appeal to stem from quantum mechanics. It would again be a mistake to think that what you've asserted is somehow on a par with what they're talking about.

What they're talking about is entrenched in a much larger and wider background theory, a scientifically-grounded context, in which they attempt to make various hypothetical derivations and so forth.

What you're talking about, on the other hand, is entrenched in your own intuitions, from start to finish.

The more you've been asked to spell out those intuitions in explicit fashion, the more ridiculous and unfounded they become.





Balsamica:

Perhaps this Wikipedia entry will give you some sense of what you're looking for:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartle%E2%80%93Hawking_state

Also, he writes about it in his last book, 'The Grand Design'. If you want, I can give you the page numbers. If you go into a book store, you can read it without buying the book because he keeps the explanation relatively brief.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/10/2012 1:24:11 PM
you have missed great deal of what i said and stuff i spelled out clearly in previous posts.
you may have 1 particle per cubic foot in infinite space numbering infinity.
you may also have 1,000,000,000 particles per square foot in infinite space numbering infinity.
but their relationship to each other is per square foot a million to one and limited.
so God would only be able to store a limited amount of information about each created particle, if his were physical because even if they were smaller he could only have so many before they prevented movement of the created particles.
and about the anything that can happen in the very next sentence i dealt with that by saying if it's any thing that can happen...
if it's that they have detected virtual particle spontaneously appearing then we go back to the spontaneous argument with this cavet.
it could be that these virtual particle are themselves made of smaller particle's that are to small to detect with the instruements or have been missed.
and that are bundling up to form composite particles.
in which case it's not spontaneous and your left with an explanation problem even more serious.
because now there's nothing spontaneous to even be naturalistic and of course if it appeared then you do have to explain why matter isn't appearing now as all other natural laws operate continiously.
 Aries_328
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/10/2012 2:15:42 PM
http://www.atlasoftheuniverse.com/universe.html

Does anyone have any idea if that is a legitimate perspective of the 'known universe'. The roundness of it doesn't bother me since it would be very strictly limited to the extent of what could be 'seen' from earth perspective. The part that bothers me is that from the 14b year perspective it is rather uniform. Nothing even remotely close to indicating an expansion where there should be a higher density / lower density pattern indicating a directional movement somewhere.

Taking into account that this perspective puts us in the center of the universe because we would have no way to know that we were to the left of anything... But shouldn't there be something indicating a directional travel since the universe is thought to be 'expanding'? We are not the center of the universe and even if expansion was totally uniform from our perspective we should see a hint of the expansion. Or am I totally off and looking at it wrong?
 mccullough64
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/10/2012 3:05:38 PM
they claim the rate of expansion is increasing so they put have some sense of it somewhere and i have run across things that suggest the notion we are at the center is a bit of a misnomer. rather everything is slowly moving away from us or we are slowly moving away from every thing or a bit of both.
 Samhein
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/11/2012 11:53:59 PM

Hey Sam...........
You wrote:
"Infinities are equal. You don't have 'lesser' infinities."
The word "equal" means that there is the same number of, the same weight, the same........... you get the idea, right? Bottom line is that in order for "things" to be "equal", there has to be a way of determining the amount.........
How then can you say that "infinities" are equal, when infinity cannot be counted?
If you can count and give me a definite number for the amount of "X", then how can that be infinite? If you have a definite number, then it is not infinite.
Paul K

Well, someone else hinted at the reasoning slightly after: it's just a concept. We cannot count nor number an infinity; it's a hypothetical. Therefore to say one is lesser of greater is just bollocks.

Much like Mc 'proving me wrong twice'
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