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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe      Home login  
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 Balsamica
Joined: 2/24/2012
Msg: 276
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the UniversePage 12 of 19    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19)
Does all this hinge on the definition of God?

If God were, say, Intelligence........let's use that or plug in another word ....could we say Intelligence created the universe?

Or, if God were the Laws of Physics, could we use that?

Or, if God were Atomic Energy.......or........whatever.

Is the problem really the bearded white man in a throne up on a cloud?
 Samhein
Joined: 7/20/2010
Msg: 277
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/14/2012 11:08:27 PM
if the 5 pound and ten pound cannon ball were fired at the same height above the ground with equal energy. they would both travel the same amount of distance.

Aside all the other errors in your statements, this is patently not true. As a fan of the Age of Sail, firing these objects from a cannon would bollocks up whatever your argument about gravity is.
Please, give it a rest.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 278
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/14/2012 11:30:52 PM
Uggg Samhein....

Ok, Got the message about inflation and how it all happened within the first few seconds and that the inflation had matter distributed evenly and then matter started clumping together to form blah blah blah...

WTF man... This absolutely must discount any sense of infinity right. You can't inflate infinity in an instant. It must be a constrained inflation. What is currently baking my brain is dark matter... If it is absolutely everywhere and even in the spaces between atoms then this would be what the universe was inflated with. Basically a balloon inflated with dark energy/matter which is the medium that interacts with particles to give them mass...

Now I will say that I wanted the dark matter / energy to be absolutely everywhere but now that is kind of breaking down because of the 3d map of dark matter. It now doesn't seem to be absolutely everywhere and is instead more like very large oil like droplets contained in yet another …thing…
http://www.esa.int/esaSC/SEMZ6GSVYVE_index_1.html#subhead1

Why does it seem that it would be just as likely that we are an experiment in some super universes laboratory particle collider that just discovered how to recreate the big bang... We have about 1/1000000 of a second left until we annihilate.

The lead scientists name is Joe Hova and he thought it would be a great laugh to see what would happen if he slipped in some of his own genetic material (wink wink) into the the center of the collision.
 Samhein
Joined: 7/20/2010
Msg: 279
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/14/2012 11:44:05 PM

WTF man... This absolutely must discount any sense of infinity right. You can't inflate infinity in an instant. It must be a constrained inflation. What is currently baking my brain is dark matter... If it is absolutely everywhere and even in the spaces between atoms then this would be what the universe was inflated with. Basically a balloon inflated with dark energy/matter which is the medium that interacts with particles to give them mass...

Infinity.. I don't know what you mean. I mean, from what you say, right, Space did not inflate to where it is now at that first instant. I have no idea if they've calculated some kind of rate of expansion to the point where they could offer a measurement of volume, per se, right after the beginning. I can't answer that Q without a lot of Googling and such.... But Space is in a sense, finite but boundless. You will never locate an edge. Now about Dark matter, I mean just skimming what it is is mind boggling to me. Basically it's all the galactic corn syrup mixed in with the tiny amount of real fruit juice. In my mind it must be bound up in interstellar objects and stellar furnaces... and probably black holes. It isn't immediately evident here around us personally so it must instead be located in more active phenomena where we could not have evolved or survived. Either that or it somehow permeates everything on a particle level and we just haven't grasped how to liberate it yet...



Now I will say that I wanted the dark matter / energy to be absolutely everywhere but now that is kind of breaking down because of the 3d map of dark matter. It now doesn't seem to be absolutely everywhere and is instead more like very large oil like droplets contained in yet another …thing…
http://www.esa.int/esaSC/SEMZ6GSVYVE_index_1.html#subhead1

Yeah...


Why does it seem that it would be just as likely that we are an experiment in some super universes laboratory particle collider that just discovered how to recreate the big bang... We have about 1/1000000 of a second left until we annihilate.

Well, it could be as likely. We are inside the box so we can never know. In my personal view, things that philosophically complex which I also cannot ever know, are irrelevant to me. If we annihilate , I won't know it. If we are about to, I don't know it. So i don't care. Just keep feeding me and give me some ass now and then and i'll run in the wheel all day.

And note: thusfar on that last bit PoF is totally useless ;) Someone change the experiment paradigm please
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 280
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/15/2012 12:11:36 AM

Infinity.. I don't know what you mean. I mean, from what you say, right, Space did not inflate to where it is now at that first instant. I have no idea if they've calculated some kind of rate of expansion to the point where they could offer a measurement of volume, per se, right after the beginning.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_(cosmology)

In physical cosmology, cosmic inflation, cosmological inflation or just inflation is the theorized extremely rapid exponential expansion of the early universe by a factor of at least 1078 in volume, driven by a negative-pressure vacuum energy density.[1] The inflationary epoch comprises the first part of the electroweak epoch following the grand unification epoch. It lasted from 10-36 seconds after the Big Bang to sometime between 10-33 and 10-32 seconds. Following the inflationary period, the universe continued to expand, but at a slower rate.


Yeah... within seconds. FML not only is that one big ass ballon but one hell of a compressor. hahaha. I like how they say "at a slower rate." Well ya think?
 Samhein
Joined: 7/20/2010
Msg: 281
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/15/2012 12:48:19 AM
It's all relative







-ity ;)
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 282
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/16/2012 1:34:06 PM
because of the density of the basic particle of the universe and their momentum's,
their collisions and the waythey angle off each other
in consistent and regular patterns
bundling up further and further
into more and more complex structures
which form the force and particles,
waves are really masses of smaller particles
-waves of particles
and as Feynman said,
it is just: particles, particles, particles, particles.
and as there can be no action at a distance.
all interaction
consists of one particle hitting another.
No matter what.
It is always a particle at the base.
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 283
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/16/2012 8:37:20 PM
Dark matter and dark energy are on average, not believed to be all that "mysterious" or "special". There is evidence [ie, side-effects such as too much or too little gravity in some places] that there is more energy or matter in some parts of the universe than we can detect at present. Because there is evidence these things exist, we identify them as matter and energy. Because we can't see what they are, we label them as "dark". Much of the "dark matter" is thought to simply be gaseous hydrogen which is diffuse enough to not block the telescopic view, but when it surrounds an entire galaxy and spills out into the void, it could be a LOT of mass added to the gravity of measurable things like stars and nebulae.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 284
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/16/2012 11:15:31 PM
so how would feeble science find god in the universe, catch him tinkering some where?

he's not IN this universe, if he exists.

general motors isn't in you car either.

no watch maker in you watch.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 285
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/17/2012 12:22:40 AM
he's not IN this universe, if he exists.


Sorry to say that statement also says that he is not here. Out of everything that I have learned through this thread and reading what I have read. You can't box god up. For some reason Religion boxes him up and moves him around and around and as each new discovery comes out the opinion is 'god doesn't live here' so he gets moved again.

This is partly because they want to prove he exists but can't. So... godditit is the easy catch phrase and it gets associated to the random thing of the day that can't be explained. Illness - Goddidit Recovery-Goddidit The sun-Goddidit, etc All that does is move him to the next unexplained thing (god of the gaps).

If we turned religion upside down and removed the "believe or ye shall die' aspect of it and not only promoted discovery and intelligence but encouraged the leaning of the unknown guess where god would be.

In everything and everywhere because we would be discovering new things all the time. Even universes of universes it would just keep expanding.

Go figure....
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 286
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/17/2012 1:33:22 AM

he's not IN this universe, if he exists.

How do you know where he/she/it is? Assuming, as you say, that he/she/it exists at all.
Which is why it's so funny that people talk about all these qualities and motivations they attribute to he/she/it but no one can actually even say where he/she/it might be, what he/she/it looks like, what capabilities he/she/it might have... etc etc. Yet believers see nothing ludicrous about espousing 'belief' in he/she/it?

general motors isn't in you car either.

The analogue is fallacious. The physical manifestations of General Motors exist (cars, amongst other things) and are directly traceable to an edifice that clearly exists. No such proof or traceable line of evidence exists for deities. Not one. Ever.

no watch maker in you watch.

There are no pixies in your watch either. But if you don't understand that an absence of pixies doesn't imply that pixies who live in alternate universe must have created your watch, just see above.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 287
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/17/2012 5:29:32 AM
@ balsamica the Laws of physics exist.
Now if they had brought the universe into existance
they would be bringing it into existance now.
and there would be more and more of it
and space would be filling up
and for those that point to those virtual particle's that"just " appear
they also "just" disappear
so that means the universe could just disappear at anytime
and if it can just dis appear
than logically it could just appear
so it is logical to say that it wasn't always here.
and you can't prove by science that it always was, so that's out.
and if it was a one time thing the appearance of the universe
than it can't be demonstrated by experiment
and public demonstration and its not science.
what Science really has to do
to prove the creation of the universe was natural
is to create a universe publicly ,
in an experiment.
with a machine or something.
and i don't think they can.
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 288
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/17/2012 1:11:02 PM

Now if they had brought the universe into existance
they would be bringing it into existance now.
and there would be more and more of it
and space would be filling up

Non sequitur. For an 'if-then' statement to be valid, your conclusion much actually be dependant on your assumption. In this case it absolutely isn't. What you have is juice powder and water - when you mix them, you have juice. You don't get any more though because what you needed to make it was used up in the process.


and for those that point to those virtual particle's that"just " appear
they also "just" disappear
so that means the universe could just disappear at anytime
and if it can just dis appear
than logically it could just appear

Another non sequitur. Virtual particles and matter aren't the same game. Note that the former are "virtual".


and if it was a one time thing the appearance of the universe
than it can't be demonstrated by experiment
and public demonstration and its not science

False. Many valid scientific proofs can be obtained indirectly, by demonstrating that all the parts necessary to create the whole, work in a suitable way. So "for A to be true, B through Z must all be true. Since B through Z ARE all true, A is a reasonable conclusion."


what Science really has to do
to prove the creation of the universe was natural
is to create a universe publicly ,
in an experiment

No. Such an experiment would only demonstrate a possible way of originating a universe. There would still be no 100% because one could still not observe the origin of our universe. While your experiment would add one more layer of security to the theory, the fact is that there are already many experiments which support the theory. The conclusions are the same and it's only a percentage point or two difference in confidence. Besides which, science doesn't prove ANYthing to be natural. Natural causes are an required assumption of all science. No unnatural causes have ever been demonstrated, and there's no reason to ever consider them a priori.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 289
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/17/2012 1:45:15 PM
do virtual particle exist or not?

and if you say it was a one time thing,
that the particle were used up
that means you cant repeat it
and you have to be able to repeat things for it to be Science

and science is the definition of a process or method
involving a human witness and machine recording,
not an outcome.

the process does not assume , you do. a priori

and the fact that matter exists may be proof that a God does. indirectly
and scientificly be cause of its order.

and while creation of a universe through experiment and public demonstration might only demonstrate one way to do it.
you have not demonstrated any
through experiment and public demonstration
just made excuses

what you are claiming is that your contention is logical.
not scientific and proven

and you can prove water freezes
so don't talk about proofs only appearing in math. it ain't true
 Samhein
Joined: 7/20/2010
Msg: 290
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/19/2012 2:42:31 AM

he's not IN this universe, if he exists.


But if he's affected this universe, then he is. If he is, or was, he will leave traces. If we can detect and measure these traces, his existence can be shown, potentially proven.

So far there is not one single shred of such evidence, and given the supposed properties, there won't be, so it isn't intelligent to posit him. We already have sufficient answers and sufficient evidence to dismiss the necessity; nature takes care of it all, without conscious outside direction.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 291
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/28/2012 12:04:19 PM
The Great Fly in the Sky and his Giant Turd's, Our Creator's Particles, may be too small to detect with our insturements in Roman time they used to say nothing smaller than what they could see existed and die from them all the time
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/28/2012 6:06:55 PM
and i beleive i have proved Godel wrong
you have one infinite set of number/word set
name all the particles in an infinite universe
and another infinite set of number /words stand for their locations
and you can combine these to numbers into a Meta-Language
where each combination represents something true and unambigous
Godel numbers are only one set and you need two (2)
and you can use this system to make security code
that are better than a single string of numbers
and add more layers of set of numbers to it
to make unbreakable security.
and its public domain i made it that way.


Pi (the area of a circle) may be calculated
it is different for every size circle

there is a way to calculate the absolute area of a circle,
it must be calculated in three dimensions.
there is no such thing as a one
or two dimensional surface.
the area of a circle is the area of a cylinder with a depth of one unit
to help calculate the volume of a cylinder
the formula for the volume of sphere is
on some ancients tomb, you'll have to research it.
computers calculate this to see if you know pi
for pi security, being able to tell the area of a circle
is the equvielent of knowing pi to a computer.
so it can be done.
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 293
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/30/2012 7:31:16 PM
Faith has no need to stand next to science.

For the record, I do not attend church. I am simply sick of what I see consistently here; the seeming need to prove oneself superior to others simply because they are not willing to dismiss the notion that there may be a God or gods, or because they have faith that there is a God. It is a personal issue, plain & simple & in no way an indication of one's intelligence or ability to comprehend science. The truth is that science has actually PROVEN nothing, only presented theories with some evidence. That human beings have faith seems natural & as much a part of evolution as the theory that evolution provides an answer to how we came to be. IMO, it does not; it only explains that change occurs, and most certainly it does, but it need not negate a creator, and it doesn't, as far as I am concerned.

Despite the arrogance, delusion & often ridiculous arguments presented here, from both sides, I continue to have faith in mankind. Oh, how ignorant of me!
 Kardinal Offishall
Joined: 2/26/2010
Msg: 294
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/31/2012 7:24:46 AM
ohwhynot46:



That human beings have faith seems natural & as much a part of evolution as the theory that evolution provides an answer to how we came to be. IMO, it does not; it only explains that change occurs, and most certainly it does, but it need not negate a creator, and it doesn't, as far as I am concerned.


The term "creator" is typically bandied about quite loosely. It shouldn't be assumed that a person knows what they mean when they make that utterance.

Usually what one has in mind by the locution 'creator' is one of the fairy tale construals of the Abrahamic faiths. In which case, those are sets of propositions easily testable empirically, and hence easily discardable.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 4/1/2012 6:41:16 PM
Ok, we are being very limited and naive, treating this materialistic universe, [atoms] as the only dimension.

just because we, mere humans is this dimension, can't test for no others.
 aremeself
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 4/14/2012 10:50:14 PM
just because we, mere humans is this dimension, can't test for no others. sorry!

just because we, mere humans in this dimension, can't test for other dimensions, doesn't mean they don't exist.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 297
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 4/15/2012 5:05:51 AM

just because we, mere humans in this dimension, can't test for other dimensions, doesn't mean they don't exist.


Doesn't mean they do, either. This is a "god of the gaps" fallacy. "I don't know, therefore god."
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 298
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 4/15/2012 7:08:55 PM
@Ohwhy


The truth is that science has actually PROVEN nothing, only presented theories with some evidence.


Agreed! Not only does science prove nothing (about the presence or absence of God); it cannot prove how anything in this universe ever came into being. The notion that the Universe created "itself" requires as much faith from an empiricist as the belief in as Deity does from a theist, regardless as to how much scientific jargon that they adorn their propositions with. Like activated DNA, The Universe is like an executable computer program; once set in motion it unfolds as it was primed to do from the outset. How it unfolds is dependent upon the physical constants that it is endowed with. Thus for one to say that the Universe "created itself" IMO is like taking a hand full of scrap metal pieces with you on top of the highest skyscraper; then tossing it out the window and expecting it to assemble itself into a Rolex watch upon impact!


but it need not negate a creator, and it doesn't, as far as I am concerned.


and it can't!


Despite the arrogance, delusion & often ridiculous arguments presented here, from both sides, I continue to have faith in mankind. Oh, how ignorant of me!


To do so, you have to have faith in "faith" itself!
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@Kard


Usually what one has in mind by the locution 'creator' is one of the fairy tale construals of the Abrahamic faiths. In which case, those are sets of propositions easily testable empirically, and hence easily discardable.


Whether the creator denotes an "abrahamic" God or not; you'd be hard pressed to discard his existence by empirical methods! To try an rule out the existence of a "being" whose nature/attributes would not conform to the physical properties of this Universe is very vacuous to say the least! If that were remotely possible, I'm sure it would have been done long ago by someone far more astute than yourself; and very likely would have won the Nobel prize in science
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At Star


Doesn't mean they do, either. This is a "god of the gaps" fallacy. "I don't know, therefore god."


It is not a matter of filling in the "gap" with God; its a matter of understanding that both possibilities are equally likely, when it concerns matters outside the confines (for lack of a better term) of this Universe.
 Samhein
Joined: 7/20/2010
Msg: 299
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 4/16/2012 1:36:55 AM

Whether the creator denotes an "abrahamic" God or not; you'd be hard pressed to discard his existence by empirical methods! To try an rule out the existence of a "being" whose nature/attributes would not conform to the physical properties of this Universe is very vacuous to say the least! If that were remotely possible, I'm sure it would have been done long ago by someone far more astute than yourself; and very likely would have won the Nobel prize in science

No, actually his existence is discarded based on the attributes alleged to him. Most are contradictory, and others are unnecessary given the ability of the universe to come about and work without him.

it is the default position to rule out something for which there is no evidence. Burden of proof is on the positive claimant, something most vacuous fundamentalists forget as soon as it's pointed out to them repeatedly.
 EKUstudent27
Joined: 3/1/2012
Msg: 300
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 4/16/2012 5:55:12 AM
None of the attributes of God are contradictory. You just misunderstand them. And the universe does not have the ability to come about and work without Him. Science has shown that the universe (all physical reality) had a cosmic beginning 13.7 billion years ago. So if the universe at one point 'didn't exist' and then 'existed' it would be metaphysically impossible for it to come about by itself.

There is plenty of evidence for the existence of God and atheists repeatedly deny it when it's pointed out to them.
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