Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  >      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 Demigod1979
Joined: 12/4/2011
Msg: 393
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the UniversePage 16 of 19    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19)
This ^ is not "science" as we know it to be, though we make the conjecture of it having been there at some point! The concept of 'infinity' is not something that is subject to scientific exegesis. Truth be told, no one really knows what the nature of a singularity is (ask Michio Kaku, for one). The 'singularity' is the point which all scientific observations (that we know of) fall apart. Cosmologists & physicists often try to grapple with it, but make no head way as the answers to their equations become absurd.

Well, keep in mind that "infinity" is just a short-hand way of saying "really really big". Whether it's actually infinite is doubtful (e.g., black holes are said to be of infinite density as well, but they can dissipate over time and disappear, a la Hawking radiation).
 notdating-forumsonly
Joined: 4/6/2012
Msg: 394
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/2/2013 11:22:06 AM

My question: For those creationists out there, do ideas in science such as these at all undercut or shake your belief in a god, personal or otherwise? (Honesty would be much appreciated.)


I went back to the original question.

No, it strengthens my belief in God and the belief that he created the earth, and I'll share why:

Historians and scholars belief that there is credible proof that Jesus existed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

I believe He existed and I believe in the existence of God as well.

I believe in the Bible. There are scholars, theologians and historians/ scientists who have written and researched at great length on the topic and most agree that the Bible is historically and scientifically correct, and just one such piece of evidence is the Flood ( in Genesis) and the evidence of the Flood that is scientifically and historically supported.

The first thing the Bible states is that God created the heavens and the earth.

It's my hypothesis that God created the earth and that He could have formed it with the 'Big Bang'. That effectively allows for both the creationary and the scientific theories of the creation of the earth ( planets, etc.)

Here are some supporting articles:

http://www.icr.org/article/cosmic-magnetic-fields-creation/

http://www.icr.org/research/cosmos/ (His idea that the universe expanded at the time of creation and the Genesis Flood may help explain the volumetric cooling needed during accelerated decay suggested in the RATE project- compelling stuff).
 cbbull21
Joined: 3/9/2009
Msg: 395
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/2/2013 12:09:56 PM

My question: For those creationists out there, do ideas in science such as these at all undercut or shake your belief in a god, personal or otherwise? (Honesty would be much appreciated.)

More to the point, given that we need not necessarily invoke god to explain the universe, and to the extent that one nevertheless maintains their belief in a deity, it would be interesting to know why it is that an individual would maintain that belief.


As others have stated, it's logical to believe that the universe has always existed or its causation has always existed.
I doubt that anyone bases their faith solely on the Cosmological Argument or a Prime Mover.

Others maintain "Who created God?" shows a fallacy in a first causation.
Which is more believable to those who believe in a deity : Asking how did THE universe begin and concluding God,
or asking how did OUR universe begin, invoking brane theory, and concluding that it is a result of events involving 2 or more universes which we must further inquire of their origins, reductio ad absurdum/infinitum?
There are other big bang scenarios, but they're just as likely to heeded by the target audience.
 Demigod1979
Joined: 12/4/2011
Msg: 397
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/4/2013 5:32:32 AM
I believe He existed and I believe in the existence of God as well.

I believe he existed as well, just not the way the gospels portray him. Most parts of the gospel, such as the virgin birth, miracles, and dying on a cross on a hill (to name just a few) are classic mythical elements of the mythic hero archetype and so I consider them legendary.


I believe in the Bible. There are scholars, theologians and historians/ scientists who have written and researched at great length on the topic and most agree that the Bible is historically and scientifically correct, and just one such piece of evidence is the Flood ( in Genesis) and the evidence of the Flood that is scientifically and historically supported.

Actually, the flood is not scientifically or historically supported. There is no evidence that the entire earth was flooded (if there was, there would be a uniform layer of marine sediments all around the world). There is only evidence of local floods, caused by freak floods and possibly the melting of the ice from the last ice age. The flood in Genesis is also now widely recognized by scholars to have been copied from the Babylonian flood legend (in other words, they took the story from the Babylonians and then modified it for their god). Other stories also suffer problems of historicity, such as the exodus. There is not a single piece of evidence that over two million Israelites lived/wandered in the desert for 40 years (archaeologists have found evidence of settlements for a far smaller number of settlers and for far shorter, and so the lack of evidence can be counted as evidence of absence). There is also very little evidence to suggest that the Kingdom of David ever existed (we only have one piece of evidence, which mentions a "house of David") and not a single trace of Solomon's great empire.


It's my hypothesis that God created the earth and that He could have formed it with the 'Big Bang'. That effectively allows for both the creationary and the scientific theories of the creation of the earth ( planets, etc.)

The order of creation is wildly at odds with scientific consensus. Frankly, there is no way to make sense of it, in any context (e.g., light was created before the sun and stars).
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 398
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/4/2013 7:08:29 AM

e.g., light was created before the sun and stars


Even things that seem obvious turn out not to be so obvious. Why is space black
http://www.universetoday.com/75893/why-is-space-black/

The answer is that in space, sunlight or any kind of star light does not have anything from which to bounce off.


VS

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/GR/olbers.html

* The Universe is expanding, so distant stars are red-shifted into obscurity.
* The Universe is young. Distant light hasn't even reached us yet.


If the universe stops expanding does that mean that space will eventually be as bright as the sun? So, it will all end in light?

Anyway, yes, light was created before the sun and stars.

Kind of a cool explanation of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gxJ4M7tyLRE


Infrared and red shift.
 albinosquirlz
Joined: 3/28/2010
Msg: 399
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/4/2013 8:57:45 AM
No, it strengthens my belief in God and the belief that he created the earth, and I'll share why:


No...not for the reasons you shared. Those are just defensive delusions. The devout are like a dog with a bone....it's as simple as that. They don't want to know or hear anything contradictory.


Historians and scholars belief that there is credible proof that Jesus existed.


Well no, actually there isn't. Even the scriptures, which is the only place he's mentioned (obvious forgeries like Josephus notwithstanding) can't get the story straight on the jesus character.

But it really does not matter whether there really was a historical character running around preaching at the time...we will never know. But this still doesn't give any legitimacy to his teachings or any of the supernatural claims. Existing doesn't make you right.

Regardless of which christian cult you belong to, it is basically a fourth century invention.



There are scholars, theologians and historians/ scientists who have written and researched at great length on the topic and most agree that the Bible is historically and scientifically correct


Uh...yea...NO.

Like I said...a dog with a bone.
 Kohmelo
Joined: 9/20/2011
Msg: 401
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/4/2013 2:13:40 PM
Even the scriptures, which is the only place he's mentioned

No. There's 4 references from noted authors close to the time he supposedly existed. Unfortunately, not one of the 4 was born before Jesus supposedly died.


This is the earliest piece:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus


The extant manuscripts of the writings of the 1st century Romano-Jewish historian Flavius Josephus include references to Jesus and the origins of Christianity.[1][2] Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews, written around 93–94 AD,


BUT....
Curious that is was written over 60 years after Jesus supposedly died.
Note that Josephus wrote books and none referenced Jesus, including "Jewish War" written 20 years earlier.



nd just one such piece of evidence is the Flood ( in Genesis) and the evidence of the Flood that is scientifically and historically supported

There's no credible scientific organization that supports the idea of a global flood



http://www.icr.org/article/cosmic-magnetic-fields-creation/

The Institute for Creation Research... kindly explain what kind of science begins with all the answers and then distorts the facts to suit those answers.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxJ4M7tyLRE

I love minute phyics
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 402
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/4/2013 4:43:00 PM

The Institute for Creation Research... kindly explain what kind of science begins with all the answers and then distorts the facts to suit those answers.




In 1983, on the basis of Scriptures implying the original created material of the earth was water, I proposed that God created the water with the spins of its hydrogen nuclei initially aligned in one direction (Humphreys, 1983). That would produce a strong magnetic field. After 6,000 years of decay, including energy losses from magnetic reversals during the Genesis Flood, (Humphreys, 1986a, 1990c) the strength of the earth's magnetic field would be what we observe today. In 1984 I extended the theory to the other planets of the solar system, the Sun, and the Moon (Humphreys, 1984). The theory explained the observed magnetic field strengths of those bodies very well. It also correctly predicted the field strengths of Uranus and Neptune measured by the Voyager 2 spacecraft several years later, (Humphreys, 1986b, 1990a, b) as well as magnetizations of surface rocks on Mars (Humphreys, 1999)


How do you get a job making up fiction all day long without actually having to write a book or have a plot with character development.

I could make up stuff all day long and get paid for it! Actually, I really could :)

http://www.ptable.com/
I propose that the number of the beast is a human number. And that the most basic element of life makes up that number. Carbon. Carbon has the atomic number of 6. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C3_carbon_fixation with contains 3 carbon atoms making the combined atomic number 666. This process can only occur in moderate temperature climates within plants therefore confirming the serpents existence in the garden of Eden.
 notdating-forumsonly
Joined: 4/6/2012
Msg: 405
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/7/2013 1:44:56 PM
Actually, the flood is not scientifically or historically supported. There is no evidence that the entire earth was flooded (if there was, there would be a uniform layer of marine sediments all around the world).


http://www.earthage.org/floodevidences/evidence_for_a_worldwide_flood_a.htm

http://www.foxnews.com/science/2012/12/12/archaeologist-claims-evidence-noahs-biblical-flood/

http://www.wnd.com/2012/06/does-science-prove-noahs-flood/ (hydroplate theory)

I'm not an expert in archeaology. I'm an avocational archeaologist in the TAS, with a lot of training in the field- mostly in North America, but with the networking info from archaeologists around the world. We all concur that every dig that we have taken part in shows some form of marine life- mostly shell remains, but marine life as well.
The first link refers to this information.

The more I read on the scientific data and theories, the more compelling the evidence is to me.
My experience in the field and the info from top archaeologists that I have discussed this with solidifies it for me.
 Paul K
Joined: 3/10/2006
Msg: 406
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/7/2013 2:47:36 PM
Someone posted the following link to a utube that purports to explain why the sky is dark when the sun is on the other side of the earth........... Nice try, but it really is a lot simpler that what he spent time diagraming................

He is right that the reason the sky is dark on the moon is because there is no atmosphere on the moon for the light to reflect off of and to give us the beatiful blue sky. Where is he wrong is that the reason the sky is dark at night on the earth when the sun is on the other side is because there isn't enough light to react with the atmosphere to turn the sky blue.............. its as simple as that. Even when you are on the sunny side of the earth, as you get higher in the atmosphere, the darker the sky gets.

Due to our proximity to our sun, we can't look directly at it, yet we can safely look at stars that are many times the power of our sun....... why is that? Again, simple..... because they are far enough away for the light that they emit to have disapated enough so as to be so weak as to not damage our eyes. Another example of that is that you will do damage to your eyes if you are close to someone welding, and you look directly at the arc. BUT, a few blocks away, you can see that they are welding, yet it won't harm your eyes. This is because the light waves emited are not parallel, but spread out as the go farther away from their source, thus weaking their effect. Lasers on the other hand, especially very high quality lasers don't/or spread a lot, lot less that reagualr light, so they will have a much stronger effect much farther.

Someone wrote:
"The extant manuscripts of the writings of the 1st century Romano-Jewish historian Flavius Josephus include references to Jesus and the origins of Christianity.[1][2] Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews, written around 93–94 AD,"

To which Kohmelo responded:
"BUT....
Curious that is was written over 60 years after Jesus supposedly died.
Note that Josephus wrote books and none referenced Jesus, including "Jewish War" written 20 years earlier."

Curious? Why is that? Does Josephus have to include EVERYTHING that happened in every book he wrote? Perhaps he wrote "Jewish War" on what he considered to be a different subject. It was written before "Antiquities of the Jews", and on a different subject. Why is that curious? I have read books on different historical subjects and they didn't give the whole history of the whole world, just the history of the subject at hand. For example.... A history on the Native American Indians would not have a chapter on Louis 16.............. even though they did occur at the same time.

Paul K

Paul K
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 407
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/7/2013 3:03:17 PM

http://www.earthage.org/floodevidences/evidence_for_a_worldwide_flood_a.htm

More assumptions and no explanation of where the water came from or where it went.



http://www.foxnews.com/science/2012/12/12/archaeologist-claims-evidence-noahs-biblical-flood/
Fox news derp aside, this is just one giant assiption while overlooking many other questions.




http://www.wnd.com/2012/06/does-science-prove-noahs-flood/ (hydroplate theory)

Makes claims that mountains where much lower and yet offers no evidence of how those mountains grew so fast and left no trace of the change that would indicate such.



At best these are only small cases that one could come to the conclusion of a world wide flood that all overlook many questions that quickly prove such an event did not occur.
 Kohmelo
Joined: 9/20/2011
Msg: 408
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/7/2013 3:06:17 PM

Curious? Why is that? Does Josephus have to include EVERYTHING that happened in every book he wrote?

A potentially valid point that would be worth revisiting if Josephus was alive when Jesus supposedly was.
Was he?
 Paul K
Joined: 3/10/2006
Msg: 409
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/7/2013 3:34:33 PM
Hey Kohmelo

The whole issue of whether "jesus" was even ever on earth is one that is going to be debated as long as there people talking.

I wrote:
"Curious? Why is that? Does Josephus have to include EVERYTHING that happened in every book he wrote?"

To which you replied:
"A potentially valid point that would be worth revisiting if Josephus was alive when Jesus supposedly was.
Was he? "

Actually it is a very valid point, because Josephus, as a historian wrote about MUCH, MUCH more than the period of time during which he, or Jesus were living. He wrote about the Jewish hsitory from far before Moses, and up to his day. Are you then saying that Josephus is constrained to write historical texts only about the time when he and the subjects of his texts were living at the same time?

Hardly. As far as the fact that there is not all that much written by secular historians about Jesus being around during the time it is claimed he was around, first look to see what historians of antiquity do write about...... They write about BIG historical happenings, such as wars between nations, great leaders being deposed, etc. You have to remember that at the time, they didn't even have typewriters, and during the time of Jesus, writing was a very difficult, and very expensive thing to do. There no Staples around to go get a few reams of paper, or Bic pens. Most historians were very well versed with HOW to make "paper" to write on, because they had to be. Just as carpenters of yore were very familiar with what trees work the best into furniture, and what trees are best for fences, and then they knew how to cut them down and how to transform them into planks.......... To most historians, the life of Jesus was not such a great earth shattereing thing as to have them all go out and write about it. Besides, most historians made a living writing history for the powerful of their era, and Jesus was not a popular person at all with those in charge, so very eaily could have told their scribes to make no mention of him.

Paul K
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 410
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/7/2013 4:15:16 PM

He wrote about the Jewish hsitory from far before Moses, and up to his day. Are you then saying that Josephus is constrained to write historical texts only about the time when he and the subjects of his texts were living at the same time?

So where did he get his information from?




Besides, most historians made a living writing history for the powerful of their era, and Jesus was not a popular person at all with those in charge, so very eaily could have told their scribes to make no mention of him.

Just like the people in charge told those historians to make up a story about a guy named jesus.

Written historical text from those times is for the most part nothing but the winners versions of the events and full of 1/2 truths and outright lies.
 notdating-forumsonly
Joined: 4/6/2012
Msg: 411
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/7/2013 4:20:41 PM
More assumptions and no explanation of where the water came from or where it went.


These quotes are from the cited articles:

"“About half the water now in the oceans was once in interconnected chambers about 10 miles below the entire earth’s surface,” explains Brown. “The average thickness of the subterranean water was at least three-quarters of a mile. Above the subterranean water was a granite crust; beneath the water was earth’s mantle.”
Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2012/06/does-science-prove-noahs-flood/#LbfwxC3SJ30qpAFD.99

"Because of tidal pumping forces increasing the water pressure beneath the miles of rock over the centuries, the crust stretched like an inflating balloon, says Brown. This pressure triggered a crack that ended up rupturing the earth’s crust – a process that Brown calculates took about two hours to wrap around the globe.

“As the crack raced around the earth, the 10-mile-thick crust opened like a rip in a tightly stretched cloth,” Brown explained. “Pressure in the subterranean chamber directly beneath the rupture suddenly dropped [and] caused supercritical water to explode with great violence out of the 10-mile-deep ‘slit’ that wrapped around the earth like the seam of a baseball.”

To relate the magnitude of this release, Brown equates it to the impact of 1,800 trillion hydrogen bombs, ripping a tear down the middle of the Atlantic, veering beneath Africa and Australia, running north a couple thousand miles off South America’s west coast, dipping under North America off Mexico’s west coast to Alaska, resurfacing in the Arctic Circle and continuing down through Iceland


Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2012/06/does-science-prove-noahs-flood/#LbfwxC3SJ30qpAFD.99

and it continues-


Where did the water go-if the plate theory is correct, for example, the mountains would rise, the valleys were low and the waters left after they receded would be lower on the mountains, would cover some of the valleys, etc. and the oceans would be much higher.

I'm not trying to argue whether these things happened or not.
I'm simply sharing that there are a lot of people in the scientific community who think these assertions are true.

To your edit:
Just like the people in charge told those historians to make up a story about a guy named jesus.

Written historical text from those times is for the most part nothing but the winners versions of the events and full of 1/2 truths and outright lies.


I seriously doubt that a number of credible historians would make it up.

I disagree with your statement in regard to written historical text from those times. That would infer that that none of the historical text from those times is correct, leaving a gaping hole in history, when indeed some text is correct.
All text is subjective, but a lot of the scientific theories add up. A lot of that parallels biblical text, which, to me, is the recorded text of the time. The bible, to me, is a historical record as well as a religious book.
 Paul K
Joined: 3/10/2006
Msg: 412
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/7/2013 5:08:18 PM
Hey aris.........

I wrote:
"He wrote about the Jewish hsitory from far before Moses, and up to his day. Are you then saying that Josephus is constrained to write historical texts only about the time when he and the subjects of his texts were living at the same time?"
To which you asked:
"So where did he get his information from?"

The same place most historians who wrote histories from times that preceded them, and that is from other historical works.

Then I wrote:
"Besides, most historians made a living writing history for the powerful of their era, and Jesus was not a popular person at all with those in charge, so very eaily could have told their scribes to make no mention of him."

To which you answered:
"Just like the people in charge told those historians to make up a story about a guy named jesus."

So now, when you wrote that, people are now wondering the following:
"So where did he get his information from?"

So, where did you get YOUR information that is just oh, so without any mistakes, and that you KNOW that the "historians" were ordered to make up a story abut a guy named jesus?

Sorry for going off-topic, but I was just following the "nuggets" laid out before me.............

Paul K
 notdating-forumsonly
Joined: 4/6/2012
Msg: 413
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/7/2013 5:15:06 PM
^^^I almost asked him about supporting his comments. The way they were written, as a personal opinion, or as a vent, I felt that it was moot. Based on his posts, if he challenges someone, he usually supports it with data.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 414
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/7/2013 5:42:39 PM

I'm not trying to argue whether these things happened or not.
I'm simply sharing that there are a lot of people in the scientific community who think these assertions are true.

By a lot, that would be a small fraction of outsiders who again fail to look at all the "facts" and cherry pick singular things from which they draw false conclusions from.




I disagree with your statement in regard to written historical text from those times. That would infer that that none of the historical text from those times is correct, leaving a gaping hole in history, when indeed some text is correct.

I am not saying that it is all BS, but a great deal of it and not knowing this is an epic failure at understanding how the written word have been used for the purpose of manipulation and spreading of lies.

Heck you can look at most High School text books and see the same work at hand as the powers at be get a say in what is written and facts come second to their agenda.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, where did you get YOUR information that is just oh, so without any mistakes, and that you KNOW that the "historians" were ordered to make up a story abut a guy named jesus?

I think is it pretty much common knowledge that Emperor Constantine was responsible for taking an allegorical tale and having it re-written to be told as a literal one.

So to really answer that, you would have to back and find the first iteration of the story some people today call the story of jesus.

Because it is just copied from other tales, you know historians re-writing other historians works.

The following characters all share similarities with the character we know as jesus, and they all pre-dated the tale.

Krishna: According to Bhagavata Purana some believe that Krishna was born without a sexual union, by “mental transmission” from the mind of Vasudeva into the womb of Devaki, his mother.

Romulus: Romulus is born of a vestal virgin, which was a priestess of the hearth god Vesta sworn to celibacy. His mother claims that the divine impregnated her, yet this is not believed by the King.

Dionysus: Dionysus was born of a virgin on December 25 and, as the Holy Child, was placed in a manger. He was a traveling teacher who performed miracles. He “rode in a triumphal procession on an ass.”

Glycon: In the middle of the 100s AD, out along the south coast of the Black Sea, Glycon was the son of the God Apollo, who: came to Earth through a miraculous birth, was the Earthly manifestation of divinity, came to earth in fulfillment of divine prophecy, gave his chief believer the power of prophecy, gave believers the power to speak in tongues, performed miracles, healed the sick, and raised the dead.

Zoroaster/Zarathustra: Zoroaster was born of a virgin and “immaculate conception by a ray of divine reason.” He was baptized in a river. In his youth he astounded wise men with his wisdom

Attis of Phrygia: Attis was born on December 25 of the Virgin Nana. He was considered the savior who was slain for the salvation of mankind. His body as bread was eaten by his worshippers

Horus: Born of a virgin, Isis. Only begotten son of the God Osiris. Birth heralded by the star Sirius, the morning star.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Based on his posts, if he challenges someone, he usually supports it with data.

Or like facts as shown above.

The fact is, the Bible is taken to court over copy-write infringement there would be guilty on many counts, but for some reason, people are willing to over look this and assume a completely allegorical tale is some type of historical record because they sprinkled in a few time line facts.
 Kohmelo
Joined: 9/20/2011
Msg: 415
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/7/2013 6:11:55 PM

^^^I almost asked him about supporting his comments.

Maybe he can find a biased website like the ones you cite?


Hey Kohmelo

Again, Josephus wasn't alive when Jesus supposedly was.
Please explain where he got his info.
If you can do that, you might be able to make a case.
 robertaus
Joined: 1/26/2010
Msg: 416
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/7/2013 6:19:47 PM

I'm not trying to argue whether these things happened or not.
I'm simply sharing that there are a lot of people in the scientific community who think these assertions are true


Why the rejection of the notion that there was a world-wide flood? Typically atheists reject the notion because it says so in the Bible.Where does the notion come from then? Why did they write about it? Australian Aborigines, New Zealand Maoris and I believe American Indians all have passed down stories of a devastating flood at some point in history.Might have been local floods.Who knows.No one knows for sure if there was a world-wide flood.

But it is curious that ancient people wrote about such an event and have passed down sories about such a thing happening.


There is also very little evidence to suggest that the Kingdom of David ever existed (we only have one piece of evidence, which mentions a "house of David") and not a single trace of Solomon's great empire


Haven't they found evidence that Solomon's temple actually existed?
 notdating-forumsonly
Joined: 4/6/2012
Msg: 417
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/7/2013 6:28:24 PM
By a lot, that would be a small fraction of outsiders who again fail to look at all the "facts" and cherry pick singular things from which they draw false conclusions from.


You're entitled to your opinion, but I disagree. They're not outsiders. These are credible historians, theologians, geologists, archeaologists, etc.


I am not saying that it is all BS, but a great deal of it and not knowing this is an epic failure at understanding how the written word have been used for the purpose of manipulation and spreading of lies.

Heck you can look at most High School text books and see the same work at hand as the powers at be get a say in what is written and facts come second to their agenda.


That's fine. I'm just basing it on documentation (text) by the credible historians, theologians, archeologists, geologists, etc., and my own beliefs.

I think is it pretty much common knowledge that Emperor Constantine was responsible for taking an allegorical tale and having it re-written to be told as a literal one.

So to really answer that, you would have to back and find the first iteration of the story some people today call the story of jesus.

Because it is just copied from other tales, you know historians re-writing other historians works.


Again, I disagree. It wasn't an allegorical tale. I find statements like this to generally be made by those who are non-believers in the religious sense. Credible historians, theologians, etc. generally agree that Jesus existed.
Your examples are are mythological. Jesus is not mythological IMO. The Bible is a historical text and it denotes his life and states that He walked the earth, etc- led a very 'normal' life as a human, and just happened to be someone who was led to share about God and to set the example for us through his life.
I'm well aware that others don't share my opinion. That's what opinions are about- to share openly and to hopefully learn from them and cause some cognitive thought.

I hardly think that a high school year book is comparative to the bible.


But it is curious that ancient people wrote about such an event and have passed down sories about such a thing happening.


These are the kinds of things I asked myself when reading a lot about any historical information/events- and it was very common to have stories like this handed down. I put this information together, as well as a geographic and historical timeline, and in reading the bible and other texts, and find it to be true.


Haven't they found evidence that Solomon's temple actually existed?


Yes- just one of many articles: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/02/100226-king-solomon-wall-jerusalem-bible/
 albinosquirlz
Joined: 3/28/2010
Msg: 418
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/7/2013 6:40:31 PM

I'm simply sharing that there are a lot of people in the scientific community who think these assertions are true.


Except "creation science" doesn't qualify as being part of the actual scientific community.




I seriously doubt that a number of credible historians would make it up.


It wasn't the historians who made it up.....it was the forgers who added it long after the originals were written (as with Josephus).

And what little else there is does not present evidence of jesus...but evidence of christians.
 notdating-forumsonly
Joined: 4/6/2012
Msg: 419
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/7/2013 7:03:29 PM
^^^Again, I'm not arguing. I'm just stating my beliefs and opinions, which are based on credible individuals in the above stated fields. If you had read my previous posts, or any of them, I'm not referencing creation science- I've been discussing historical, geographical, etc info since we're discussing the scientific community.

I didn't say it was the historians who made anything up. You're simply using this as an opportunity to take my words and argue some innocuous statements that really don't say anything specifically except that you think there's no evidence of Jesus, yet you don't cite specifics to uphold that statement. Too many credible historians etc agree that he did exist.
 albinosquirlz
Joined: 3/28/2010
Msg: 420
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/7/2013 8:14:46 PM

If you had read my previous posts, or any of them, I'm not referencing creation science


Yes you were....the referenced theory you gave was from the Center for Scientific Creation, which is an outfit headed by young earth creationist kook, Walt Brown. All this creation "science" is not science. If you don't believe me, consult your own Supreme Court.

From where to you get the notion that most credible scientists agree with this? Like all these creationist kooks who try to use science to uphold their religious beliefs, they have either been debunked, or not even taken seriously in the first place (by actual scientists).

Of course, if you keep watching Fox News, you are never going to know these things LOL




You're simply using this as an opportunity to take my words and argue some innocuous statements that really don't say anything specifically except that you think there's no evidence of Jesus, yet you don't cite specifics to uphold that statement. Too many credible historians etc agree that he did exist.


I did cite specifics. You're the one who keeps saying all the credible people are agreeing with you. Really? name them. You're just making claims.

The Josephus reference to jesus being a christian forgery has been a widely held belief...for centuries. And not by non-believers...but christian biblical scholars.

It's technically possible that the jesus myth is based on an actual historical figure (or combination of figures) running around preaching at the time. It's not like jesus is the only self-proclaimed Messiah running around at the time (which historians of the time actually did write about, but hadn't heard of this jesus guy).

And I don't know why you would consider the bible any kind of history reference. Historians don't, and why would they....it doesn't tell much history, and wasn't meant to be a history book. The 4 gospels and the letters of Paul (which IS the bible) don't discus "history".

The anonymous writers of the gospels give not particularly consistent accounts of jesus' birth, and the last 2 or 3 years of his life.

Paul (who's writings predates the gospels) never heard of an earthy jesus.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 421
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/7/2013 8:51:52 PM

"“About half the water now in the oceans was once in interconnected chambers about 10 miles below the entire earth’s surface,” explains Brown. “The average thickness of the subterranean water was at least three-quarters of a mile. Above the subterranean water was a granite crust; beneath the water was earth’s mantle.”
Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2012/06/does-science-prove-noahs-flood/#LbfwxC3SJ30qpAFD.99

"Because of tidal pumping forces increasing the water pressure beneath the miles of rock over the centuries, the crust stretched like an inflating balloon, says Brown. This pressure triggered a crack that ended up rupturing the earth’s crust – a process that Brown calculates took about two hours to wrap around the globe.

“As the crack raced around the earth, the 10-mile-thick crust opened like a rip in a tightly stretched cloth,” Brown explained. “Pressure in the subterranean chamber directly beneath the rupture suddenly dropped [and] caused supercritical water to explode with great violence out of the 10-mile-deep ‘slit’ that wrapped around the earth like the seam of a baseball.”

To relate the magnitude of this release, Brown equates it to the impact of 1,800 trillion hydrogen bombs, ripping a tear down the middle of the Atlantic, veering beneath Africa and Australia, running north a couple thousand miles off South America’s west coast, dipping under North America off Mexico’s west coast to Alaska, resurfacing in the Arctic Circle and continuing down through Iceland

Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2012/06/does-science-prove-noahs-flood/#LbfwxC3SJ30qpAFD.99


And then afterwards, fairies came and healed up the crack.



I'm not trying to argue whether these things happened or not.
I'm simply sharing that there are a lot of people in the scientific community who think these assertions are true.

Relatively speaking, no there aren't. Even in the US, which is unique amongst western developed nations in the high level of community religiosity, only a tiny fraction of people in relevant scientific fields, ie; those who one would expect to be well informed, support any variety of creationism, either young, or old, or ID.
Biblical literalism, which includes such beliefs as creationism and a global flood event, are fringe beliefs even within religious circles.

The observed trend of an inverse correlation between higher education and religious belief doesn't even necessarily require expertise in relevant fields. A comprehensive education and even slight familiarity with science has a measurable effect on religious beliefs in general.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2111174/Intelligent-people-less-likely-to-believe-in-God.html
http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=26&storycode=402381&c=2
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html
http://philpapers.org/surveys
http://philpapers.org/surveys/demographics.pl
http://philpapers.org/surveys/index.html
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Approximately_what_percentage_of_recognized_Scientists_believes_in_Creation

,
Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  >