Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 402
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the UniversePage 16 of 19    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19)
what s. hawking said:
"As recent advances in cosmology suggest, the laws of gravity and quantum theory allow universes to appear spontaneously from nothing."

so, now when hawking says gravity existed before the universe, some will automaticaly gobble that up, without question, as the 'present, reining for a little while' ...truth?
 Ford_Galaxie
Joined: 6/3/2012
Msg: 403
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 12/26/2012 11:24:55 PM
Once again we have seen some evidence that Skynet did not take over, or that some magic show occurred because some people with chose to learn some basic geometry and astronomy - simple math taught in elementary school- were not prophets.

Those of us who see the world as it really is and don't use the words "zen" and "karma" know that when we wake up on 21 December, nothing will have happened- again.

And there was no "zen" and "karma" occurring on 22 December- the same spirituality that has existed all along was still front and center in the eyes of the new age nutcases- spirituality was directly in front of them, all around them just as it was the same thing that has kicked them in the ass all of their entire life and never once learned from it.

Just because engineers didn't have enough memory available to create 4 digit year codes on computers did not mean that Skynet was going to take over in Y2K. The Mayan's weren't no different- they weren't writing prophecy- THEY WERE WRITING MATH.

"WHAT PART OF 2 PLUS TWO EQUALS 4 DO YOU NOT "GET?" Furthermore, THERE'S NOTHING MORE TO THE EQUATION- nothing to read through lines, assume or insinuate.

There was a man who once said that "When you believe in things that you don't understand- then you were born ****ing stupid.” Something about superstition.
 RussArtLover
Joined: 5/13/2010
Msg: 404
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 12/27/2012 5:54:35 PM
lol
ok Imagine you are the oldest goofball in your village thousands of years ago. Your daughter asks you where did it all begin. You close your eyes and think hard and what did your superior intellect remember? You were in your mothers womb and Viola! you become aware of the firmament, gravity. After you realize what time is you realize some time has gone buy, the first day. Then you see light seeping into the womb etc etc etc. The your devil dad steals mommys tit away and you feel betrayed :)
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 405
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 12/27/2012 6:11:17 PM

so, now when hawking says gravity existed before the universe, some will automaticaly gobble that up, without question,


SH has been trying to be the "Dr. OZ" of physics; going well beyond his limits (or that of anyone else) to stay relevant. In his next book maybe SH should write about what exactly "nothingness" really is.
 kennerL71
Joined: 12/14/2012
Msg: 406
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 12/30/2012 6:36:02 PM
Firstly, I do not appreciate the "title". Secondly, I'm not about to give you my opinion, but I will give you my lifes experience that have been provene tried, and true. I may come across bitter but I'm really not because no one has showed up at my doorstep that wants this conversation. I like short stories because it saves me the task of typing, but their is alot to read between the lines, but those that can't, good-bye. To put it quite simply, if you don't believe in God, then spend all your time, attention, and money to try and become him. We will find you thinkin' your something special. No man or woman can explain all the mysteries in life or we would run out of math.(numbers). There are no numbers in eternity. And I hope you notice the period at the end of that last statement. your friend , Santa Claus. LOL. There is so much talent out there, I just hope that someone with other talents, (better than some of mine), will see what I'm saying and listen to a long term goal or life plan. Its about our "youth". Amen
 generlee
Joined: 12/10/2005
Msg: 407
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 12/31/2012 2:41:07 PM
first off; kudos to all contributors....You people sound intelligent and some of you write very well. Now for the record;

It is most doubtful that the 3.5 pounds of noodle [ brain ] will ever be capable of indexing or categorically knowing

the infinite mysteries of space. For the believer [ such as myself ], I find it a curious waste to "prove God"....much

easier to define him. And the etymology of g-o-d tracks to gad and that word means fortune....makes a lot of cent$ too

when you consider the masonic overseers of all Western currencies. To my mind, nothing is more absurd to claim

that gravity, planets with varying densities & spin rates, plasma [ which accounts for 99% of the known solar system],

the periodic table, magnetospheres, and SALT-WATER[ some 75 bazillion gallons of it] + fresh WATER came into

existence as a result of a large Cosmic bang. When we rule out the absurd, we can move on to logic and the first & 2nd

laws of Heat....and even with all the advances in science and astronomy, experts are still at a loss to explain why and

how one teaspoon of neutron star weighs a million tons. There is an I D K [ I don't know ] factor that is still at work

even in the realm of the Santa Barbara Channel and / or the deep blue Sea.
 Demigod1979
Joined: 12/4/2011
Msg: 408
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 12/31/2012 4:00:09 PM

To my mind, nothing is more absurd to claim that gravity, planets with varying densities & spin rates, plasma [ which accounts for 99% of the known solar system], the periodic table, magnetospheres, and SALT-WATER[ some 75 bazillion gallons of it] + fresh WATER came into existence as a result of a large Cosmic bang.

What's so absurd about it? Things like planet, plasma, water and so on are just different combinations of protons, neutrons and electrons. What the Big Bang did was provide the universe with it's basic ingredient: hydrogen (as well as the four forces of nature), which then combined to form heavier elements.

It seems to me that the your position is nothing more than personal incredulity, based on the false notion that these things are fundamentally different and too complex.


When we rule out the absurd, we can move on to logic and the first & 2nd laws of Heat....and even with all the advances in science and astronomy, experts are still at a loss to explain why and how one teaspoon of neutron star weighs a million tons.

Really? I'm not an expert, but even I can explain why this is so. A neutron star is one of the densest materials on earth. Despite appearances, solid matter (like you and me) is composed largely of empty space. As Professor Jim Al-Khalili explained, if we could take out all the empty space, then every single human being could fit inside an apple (and that apple would weigh the same as seven billion human beings).
 generlee
Joined: 12/10/2005
Msg: 409
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/1/2013 7:35:54 AM
maybe your explanation makes you content......make your own explosion and check for saltWater, ball bearings[ magnetically polarized spheres] and um.....blood--in varying classifications plus..um....this thing called "order".
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 410
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/1/2013 8:01:31 AM

first off; kudos to all contributors....You people sound intelligent and some of you write very well. Now for the record; It is most doubtful that the 3.5 pounds of noodle [ brain ] will ever be capable....

It's surprising what intelligence, fed with accurate information, and combined with rationality and logic can achieve. It's equally surprising that some would choose to abandon those tools and rely instead on guesses and made up factoids.


I find it a curious waste to "prove God"....much easier to define him. And the etymology of g-o-d tracks to gad and that word means fortune....makes a lot of cent$ too when you consider the masonic overseers of all Western currencies.

Here is the etymology of the words 'god', and 'gad'.

god (n.)
O.E. god "supreme being, deity; the Christian God; image of a god; godlike person," from P.Gmc. *guthan (cf. O.S., O.Fris., Du. god, O.H.G. got, Ger. Gott, O.N. guð, Goth. guþ), from PIE *ghut- "that which is invoked" (cf. O.C.S. zovo "to call," Skt. huta- "invoked," an epithet of Indra), from root *gheu(e)- "to call, invoke." But some trace it to PIE *ghu-to- "poured," from root *gheu- "to pour, pour a libation" (source of Gk. khein "to pour," also in the phrase khute gaia "poured earth," referring to a burial mound; see found (v.2)). "Given the Greek facts, the Germanic form may have referred in the first instance to the spirit immanent in a burial mound" [Watkins]. Cf. also Zeus.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=god&searchmode=none


gad (v.)
"to rove about," mid-15c., perhaps a back formation from Middle English gadeling (O.E. gædeling) "kinsman, fellow, companion in arms," but which had a deteriorated sense of "rogue, vagabond" by c.1300 (it also had a meaning "wandering," but this is attested only from 16c.); or else it should be associated with gad (n.) "a goad for driving cattle."
gad (n.)
"goad, metal rod," early 13c., from O.N. gaddr "spike, nail," from P.Gmc. *gadaz "pointed stick".
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=gad&searchmode=none


I see nothing about either word meaning, or having any connection to 'fortune', and nothing about either one being derived from the other.
Do you have a reference or source for your assertions?


To my mind, nothing is more absurd to claim that gravity, planets with varying densities & spin rates, plasma [ which accounts for 99% of the known solar system], the periodic table, magnetospheres, and SALT-WATER[ some 75 bazillion gallons of it] + fresh WATER came into existence as a result of a large Cosmic bang.

I don't think anyone has ever said, other than people who claim a god thing 'created' it all, that this ^^^ is what happened.
The things you refer to are outcomes and consequences - which could loosely be described as 'results' I suppose, if one was trying to misrepresent and massively oversimplify reality to the point of nonsensical incomprehensibility.


When we rule out the absurd, we can move on to logic and the first & 2nd laws of Heat....and even with all the advances in science and astronomy, experts are still at a loss to explain why and how one teaspoon of neutron star weighs a million tons. There is an I D K [ I don't know ] factor that is still at work even in the realm of the Santa Barbara Channel and / or the deep blue Sea.

This ^^^, like most of your post, is just a distortion of reality based on an uninformed opinion that leads to a flawed conclusion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_star
http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/science/know_l1/neutron_stars.html
http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/science/know_l1/pulsars.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang
http://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-powered-the-big-bang/
http://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/big-questions/how-did-universe-originate-and-evolve-produce-galaxies-stars-and-planets-we-see-today/

The truth can set you free.
 Demigod1979
Joined: 12/4/2011
Msg: 411
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/1/2013 8:43:34 AM

maybe your explanation makes you content......make your own explosion and check for saltWater, ball bearings[ magnetically polarized spheres] and um.....blood--in varying classifications plus..um....this thing called "order".

The Big Bang was not an "explosion" per se, it was an expansion that transformed the singularity into the universe that we see today. As I indicated earlier, it provided the universe with the four forces of nature (gravity, electromagnetism, weak nuclear force and strong nuclear force) and gave it it's birth ingredient, hydrogen. The hydrogen formed the first stars, and it is inside the core of these stars that complex elements were created through nuclear fusion (in a sense, ancient sun-worshiping cultures were right - the sun is the engine of creation). This explains all the elements we see today, and this process is still going on inside current stars like our sun (every second, tons of hydrogen is being fused into helium, giving off light and energy in the process).
 generlee
Joined: 12/10/2005
Msg: 412
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/1/2013 8:56:50 AM
check word no. 1408 in Strong's Exhaustive concordance....or obtain a copy of C J Koster's, "Come Out of Her My

People"--one of the finest books ever written about doctrine & etymology.

News Flash** You may believe what You want....its called free Will. The above links prove nothing....which, co-Incidently, is not the best enviroment for Explosions...ie...no Gravity...Absolute Zero Temp...no Matter...no God...

no intelligence and no purpose......and then that nothing extrapolated itself into everything....real nice science you

have there.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 413
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/1/2013 9:16:45 AM

check word no. 1408 in Strong's Exhaustive concordance....or obtain a copy of C J Koster's, "Come Out of Her My People"--one of the finest books ever written about doctrine & etymology.

It's not for me to substantiate your claims by searching through your vague references - both of which appear to be less then independent sources.
If you can't substantiate your claims get used to them being ignored, and/or mocked.


News Flash** You may believe what You want....its called free Will. The above links prove nothing...

This ^^^ is just an expression of imperviousness to rational input.
 Demigod1979
Joined: 12/4/2011
Msg: 414
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/1/2013 10:47:10 AM

News Flash** You may believe what You want....its called free Will. The above links prove nothing....which, co-Incidently, is not the best enviroment for Explosions...ie...no Gravity...Absolute Zero Temp...no Matter...no God... no intelligence and no purpose......and then that nothing extrapolated itself into everything....real nice science you have there.

From nothing? Did you misread something? I clearly stated that the Big Bang is an expansion from a singularity (a point of infinite density, like a really small but really heavy black hole).

You seem to be having a conversation with yourself.
 generlee
Joined: 12/10/2005
Msg: 415
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/1/2013 1:49:28 PM
a singularity of infinite density? Is that science? Can you explain that in english? the fact that you state something

in a meaningless sentence does not mean it is scientific fact. Its your religion, your belief..and you are taking it on

faith that the Universe is 14.6 billion years old because some Egghead said so on TV. Seriously, is this the best you

got?
 Demigod1979
Joined: 12/4/2011
Msg: 416
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/1/2013 3:38:39 PM

a singularity of infinite density? Is that science? Can you explain that in english? the fact that you state something in a meaningless sentence does not mean it is scientific fact. Its your religion, your belief..and you are taking it on faith that the Universe is 14.6 billion years old because some Egghead said so on TV. Seriously, is this the best you got?

Yes, it's science! And I just explained it in English (if you didn't understand that's your problem). As for the age of the universe (~13.75 billion years old), it can be gleaned from the microwave background radiation (e.g., WMAP).

Honestly, you are making yourself out to be a complete ignoramus. If you're interested in learning, then ask. If not, then say just say you don't understand and be done with it. You can mock science all you want, but the facts are the facts.
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 417
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/1/2013 5:26:12 PM

a singularity of infinite density? Is that science?


This ^ is not "science" as we know it to be, though we make the conjecture of it having been there at some point! The concept of 'infinity' is not something that is subject to scientific exegesis. Truth be told, no one really knows what the nature of a singularity is (ask Michio Kaku, for one). The 'singularity' is the point which all scientific observations (that we know of) fall apart. Cosmologists & physicists often try to grapple with it, but make no head way as the answers to their equations become absurd.
 gingerosity
Joined: 12/10/2011
Msg: 418
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/1/2013 6:37:57 PM
Its your religion, your belief..and you are taking it on faith that the Universe is 14.6 billion years old because some Egghead said so on TV. Seriously, is this the best you got?


For us to think that the universe is 13.75bn years old is not blind faith, it is a logical conclusion. A consensus amongst peer reviewed literature is as strong an argument from authority as there is possible - ie. a valid inductive argument. That means it is indeed the 'best we got' without ourselves undertaking many years of study to become cosmologists and further years of work analysing the data to see if it can be better explained by an alternative hypothesis.
 Demigod1979
Joined: 12/4/2011
Msg: 419
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/2/2013 5:13:03 AM
This ^ is not "science" as we know it to be, though we make the conjecture of it having been there at some point! The concept of 'infinity' is not something that is subject to scientific exegesis. Truth be told, no one really knows what the nature of a singularity is (ask Michio Kaku, for one). The 'singularity' is the point which all scientific observations (that we know of) fall apart. Cosmologists & physicists often try to grapple with it, but make no head way as the answers to their equations become absurd.

Well, keep in mind that "infinity" is just a short-hand way of saying "really really big". Whether it's actually infinite is doubtful (e.g., black holes are said to be of infinite density as well, but they can dissipate over time and disappear, a la Hawking radiation).
 notdating-forumsonly
Joined: 4/6/2012
Msg: 420
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/2/2013 11:22:06 AM

My question: For those creationists out there, do ideas in science such as these at all undercut or shake your belief in a god, personal or otherwise? (Honesty would be much appreciated.)


I went back to the original question.

No, it strengthens my belief in God and the belief that he created the earth, and I'll share why:

Historians and scholars belief that there is credible proof that Jesus existed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

I believe He existed and I believe in the existence of God as well.

I believe in the Bible. There are scholars, theologians and historians/ scientists who have written and researched at great length on the topic and most agree that the Bible is historically and scientifically correct, and just one such piece of evidence is the Flood ( in Genesis) and the evidence of the Flood that is scientifically and historically supported.

The first thing the Bible states is that God created the heavens and the earth.

It's my hypothesis that God created the earth and that He could have formed it with the 'Big Bang'. That effectively allows for both the creationary and the scientific theories of the creation of the earth ( planets, etc.)

Here are some supporting articles:

http://www.icr.org/article/cosmic-magnetic-fields-creation/

http://www.icr.org/research/cosmos/ (His idea that the universe expanded at the time of creation and the Genesis Flood may help explain the volumetric cooling needed during accelerated decay suggested in the RATE project- compelling stuff).
 cbbull21
Joined: 3/9/2009
Msg: 421
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/2/2013 12:09:56 PM

My question: For those creationists out there, do ideas in science such as these at all undercut or shake your belief in a god, personal or otherwise? (Honesty would be much appreciated.)

More to the point, given that we need not necessarily invoke god to explain the universe, and to the extent that one nevertheless maintains their belief in a deity, it would be interesting to know why it is that an individual would maintain that belief.


As others have stated, it's logical to believe that the universe has always existed or its causation has always existed.
I doubt that anyone bases their faith solely on the Cosmological Argument or a Prime Mover.

Others maintain "Who created God?" shows a fallacy in a first causation.
Which is more believable to those who believe in a deity : Asking how did THE universe begin and concluding God,
or asking how did OUR universe begin, invoking brane theory, and concluding that it is a result of events involving 2 or more universes which we must further inquire of their origins, reductio ad absurdum/infinitum?
There are other big bang scenarios, but they're just as likely to heeded by the target audience.
 kennerL71
Joined: 12/14/2012
Msg: 422
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/3/2013 6:56:29 PM
I agree. I think it's unfortunate for someone to try to contemplate who has not experienced the spiritual side of God that exists and cannot be figured out mathematically. Good discussion though.

Curiousity is a natural response from most people I on this subject I think, and it's healthy. I'm a simple man with some college, but a Large amount of life experience for my age that contributes to my comfortableness in knowing I don't know it all, and I don't have to either.

There are obvious issues in the world today that should be and I believe could be addressed. It all starts with your nieghborhood, and spreads like wildfire.

I've had lots of reasons to be mad at God in my life, and quite honestly I have been from time to time, but that does not take away from who he is.

It boils down to frustrating mathematics for some, anger and missinformation for others.

Costly for some. Pride and dignity for others.

Just my opinion, signed , uneducated man.
 Demigod1979
Joined: 12/4/2011
Msg: 423
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/4/2013 5:32:32 AM
I believe He existed and I believe in the existence of God as well.

I believe he existed as well, just not the way the gospels portray him. Most parts of the gospel, such as the virgin birth, miracles, and dying on a cross on a hill (to name just a few) are classic mythical elements of the mythic hero archetype and so I consider them legendary.


I believe in the Bible. There are scholars, theologians and historians/ scientists who have written and researched at great length on the topic and most agree that the Bible is historically and scientifically correct, and just one such piece of evidence is the Flood ( in Genesis) and the evidence of the Flood that is scientifically and historically supported.

Actually, the flood is not scientifically or historically supported. There is no evidence that the entire earth was flooded (if there was, there would be a uniform layer of marine sediments all around the world). There is only evidence of local floods, caused by freak floods and possibly the melting of the ice from the last ice age. The flood in Genesis is also now widely recognized by scholars to have been copied from the Babylonian flood legend (in other words, they took the story from the Babylonians and then modified it for their god). Other stories also suffer problems of historicity, such as the exodus. There is not a single piece of evidence that over two million Israelites lived/wandered in the desert for 40 years (archaeologists have found evidence of settlements for a far smaller number of settlers and for far shorter, and so the lack of evidence can be counted as evidence of absence). There is also very little evidence to suggest that the Kingdom of David ever existed (we only have one piece of evidence, which mentions a "house of David") and not a single trace of Solomon's great empire.


It's my hypothesis that God created the earth and that He could have formed it with the 'Big Bang'. That effectively allows for both the creationary and the scientific theories of the creation of the earth ( planets, etc.)

The order of creation is wildly at odds with scientific consensus. Frankly, there is no way to make sense of it, in any context (e.g., light was created before the sun and stars).
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 424
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/4/2013 7:08:29 AM

e.g., light was created before the sun and stars


Even things that seem obvious turn out not to be so obvious. Why is space black
http://www.universetoday.com/75893/why-is-space-black/

The answer is that in space, sunlight or any kind of star light does not have anything from which to bounce off.


VS

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/GR/olbers.html

* The Universe is expanding, so distant stars are red-shifted into obscurity.
* The Universe is young. Distant light hasn't even reached us yet.


If the universe stops expanding does that mean that space will eventually be as bright as the sun? So, it will all end in light?

Anyway, yes, light was created before the sun and stars.

Kind of a cool explanation of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gxJ4M7tyLRE


Infrared and red shift.
 albinosquirlz
Joined: 3/28/2010
Msg: 425
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/4/2013 8:57:45 AM
No, it strengthens my belief in God and the belief that he created the earth, and I'll share why:


No...not for the reasons you shared. Those are just defensive delusions. The devout are like a dog with a bone....it's as simple as that. They don't want to know or hear anything contradictory.


Historians and scholars belief that there is credible proof that Jesus existed.


Well no, actually there isn't. Even the scriptures, which is the only place he's mentioned (obvious forgeries like Josephus notwithstanding) can't get the story straight on the jesus character.

But it really does not matter whether there really was a historical character running around preaching at the time...we will never know. But this still doesn't give any legitimacy to his teachings or any of the supernatural claims. Existing doesn't make you right.

Regardless of which christian cult you belong to, it is basically a fourth century invention.



There are scholars, theologians and historians/ scientists who have written and researched at great length on the topic and most agree that the Bible is historically and scientifically correct


Uh...yea...NO.

Like I said...a dog with a bone.
 kennerL71
Joined: 12/14/2012
Msg: 426
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 1/4/2013 12:13:48 PM
Not trying to start an argument here, but most "cults" that I've ever heard about tend to separate themselves from society.
And a dog with a bone doesn't like to share.

Both contradictory to what I've experienced myself.

Signed, uneducated man.
Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe