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 johnemanuel
Joined: 7/22/2007
Msg: 98
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the UniversePage 4 of 19    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19)
Unfortunately, you are correct in your analyses of how evil men have tried to control religion to enslave fellow humans in order to control the natural resources to support and protect their own existence and actually perhaps more true because they have no recognition of their own behavior in the drama of their own existance. And then there are not so evil people who are acting in a capacity to promote their own concepts of how man MUST relate to others and be subordinate to their idea of God. It may surprize you that as a born again Christian dare I say, i wholeheartedly hope and pray for this separation and so did our Lord who inspired a noble writer to declare that pure religion and undefiled is to visit the widows and the fatherless in their affliction. So within what the world eroneously conceives to be the religios faction are people who know that in light of no emperical evidence to the contrary the best we can do is Love God and each other and go on about the business of living. If you asked me why i know God is real i really cant give you an answer because the truth is you have to know - to know..Aand really there comes a certain time in life if one lives long enough that you dont really care if people who believe in their own intellectual superiority or rather have bona fide reasons within themselves for not believing or who go as far as attacking or ridiculing other humans humans on the basis of what they believe, because if you have lived long enough you realize that in really a very few short years you will be in a better position to argue about these questions of God, for instance you will continue to exist or will not exist, and no one regardless of their level of intelligence or the number of books they written or read, no matter what group they belong to or position they take, at that time they will surely know. Now for sure there are people here on earth who actually DO know an awful lot about heavenly things but they would not waste their time trying to convince someone who is charmed by there own intelligence that what they know is real. There is a distinct possibility that the universe is in essence a giant computer and 40 billions years of sparks flashing in cosmic ooze under pressure "could " have resulted in this beautiful smiling creature sitting next to me who knows me as her dad ajd loves......or God really is real and He has given us this life to work out some choices on the physical plain to acheive some purpose we are not really sure of at this time. Personally i believe atheist's are lazy but that's just my opinion. I have heard most of the insults and ridicule and observations on what man has done in the name of God and i find that you dont have to believe or disbelieve to be rude arrogant smug etc i just actually feel good knowing it wont be that long before i know the answer to the question i have thought about for most of my life. i am convinced that it will be either absolutely nothing or it will be everything.... so i am of the mind that since there is a distinct possibility that it will be everything i am now totally free to love my fellow beings and be of service to God and man. if you of the intelligentsia find whatever proof there is to have worth in this life with reason to not believe there is still the certainty that one day you will know for sure. thats all i'm saying.....
 StrawberryBurns
Joined: 9/18/2010
Msg: 99
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 11/14/2010 4:00:11 PM

i am now totally free to love my fellow beings


Why did you feel you weren't free to do that before? I have never understood why people think you have to have religion or belief in a God to tell you the difference between right and wrong, to act with love and compassion toward those around you. I'm non religious, but I am peace loving, I volunteer, I know it's wrong to murder, etc. I had someone ask me once how on Earth I expected to raise my kids to be decent human beings without believing in man's concept of god and teaching it to them. (that's not verbatim but close) I responded by telling them that my kids can be taught values without the use of a god as a platform. I've taught my kids that murder is wrong, not because a god says so, but because it's wrong...period. Same goes for a lot of other values. And I have never forbidden my kids from going to church or exploring religion. I feel that something as important as a belief in a god, or non belief in a god, and aligning one's self with a denomination or not aligning one's self, is a very serious matter that should be given much thought. How would a child be able to make such a decision with a brain that isn't even close to being fully developed? I have moved past what I consider to be the brainwashing I had done on me as a child and have refused to pass that brain washing on to my kids. They are free to do their own investigation of religion and make their own decisions based on what the feel is right for them.



atheist's are lazy but that's just my opinion


Now for sure there are people here on earth who actually DO know an awful lot about heavenly things but they would not waste their time trying to convince someone who is charmed by there own intelligence that what they know is real.


Why are Atheists lazy? What are you basing that opinion on? I don't see Hawking as being charmed by his own intelligence as you put it. I see Science as being a hard working constant investigator of the nature of the universe. And I see religion as close minded, using faith to justify discontinuing the quest for reality based logical answers. Which seems to be more lazy to me than constant investigation. These people who you claim "actually DO know" about heavenly things, how do you know they actually know? Because they say they do? Science is about observation, investigation, tests, documentation, repetition of the experiments by other Scientists. Religion is about knowing something because someone told you to believe it based on faith, and not on any kind of proof.

I don't believe in man's version of God. I believe we are clueless as to even a tiny fraction of the workings of the universe. (which again shows the need for Science to continue it's quest for answers) We base all religions on the words of so called prophets who have been long gone. If someone came up to you on the street and professed to be a prophet or even a messiah, and told you God had spoken to him, would you believe them or consider them to be mentally ill? Mentally ill people claiming to be a messiah is something that we treat with medication now because we have an understanding of mental illness . There is also, for example, the cases of severe temporal lobe epileptics having intense religious experiences during seizures and coming out of it believing themselves to be a god or messenger from a god. The work of V.S. Ramachandran has been very enlightening on this subject.

Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIiIsDIkDtg

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5z4B5BYbjf8
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 100
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History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 11/14/2010 4:31:11 PM
RE Msg: 103 by StrawberryBurns:
I have never understood why people think you have to have religion or belief in a God to tell you the difference between right and wrong, to act with love and compassion toward those around you.
It's very simple. Not everyone is like you.
 johnemanuel
Joined: 7/22/2007
Msg: 101
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 11/27/2010 9:05:40 AM
The point is that there is an experience beyond which people who do not believe call religion and that is a system of things man has manufactured which is totally based on rules and regulations outside the scope of science and in most of the cases you mention are responsible for the sins of the " church " however well intentioned the whole thing started out but look to your own nature and consider the miracle of your children and see if that unconditional love you have for them is something that is quantifiable or explainable within the parlayance of quantum physics.....
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 104
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 8:31:04 AM

t o be con vicing atheist have to explain how the universe started


Um....no they don't. You clearly have no understanding of what atheism is. Here. Let me help you with that.


a·the·ism   [ey-thee-iz-uhm] noun
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2.disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.


It's not a cosmological question. It's not a question of origins.

I don't believe in a god(s) and no theist has ever given me good enough reason to accept the notion that one or more exists. The things you cite as "problems" aren't problems. They're simply fields of ongoing research.

Of course, to scientists it's usually "I don't know, therefore more research." To theists like yourself, it's "I don't know, therefore god." It's really quite lazy and it's not how you are here now, able to type your rambling prose on a computer.


atheist have no time machine


Neither do theists and they cannot go back in time to observe divine creation or see god snapping his fingers and making everything pop into existence.
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 109
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 6:27:54 PM

if physical law had operated for eternity matter would be uniformly distributed in the universe and unmoving, infinitely ordered and it would have never and there could never be any change.


I tend to agree, but then there are those who might say that the the Universe was always there except that is goes through phases of expansion and contraction like an accordion . But if that were true, what would be the point of this type of see-saw.
 Darkbutcomely
Joined: 4/20/2011
Msg: 111
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 7:40:37 PM
If god created the universe. WHO created god? And if nothing came from nothing why then can't the universe come from nothing??
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 112
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 7:51:52 PM

If god created the universe. WHO created god?


God is not something that is subject to being "created". That is why he (or it) is called God (I prefer the term 'cosmic creator')


And if nothing came from nothing why then can't the universe come from nothing??


because nothing from nothing always equals nothing (0 + 0 = 0); and since the universe is made of 'something' so it cannot come from nothing!

 Darkbutcomely
Joined: 4/20/2011
Msg: 114
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 8:33:48 PM
Why is it so hard to believe the universe started with a bang but BUT very acceptable to think that a being who has always been, created the universe?? This confuses me. Oh yea god has always been BUT the universe is too complex to not to have created by something. So if the universe is that complex how complex must be the being who created it and who created the being who created the universe??? AND who created the being who created the being who created the being who created the being who created the being who created the universe? God has always been requires faith. Without it you can not wrap your head around it. And the bible says you have to faith of a child.... So don't ask. Just go with it. Well I can't. I cant just go with it. I need these answers.
When my children asked questions I really did try to give them the best answers I could. Even if I had to dumb it down. But we aren't given any answers and told what I consider the dumbest down answer ever,,,,,, just believe, have faith.
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 115
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 8:45:55 PM

BUT god is made from nothing....


You will come to know whether or not this is the case, right at the moment that you breathe out your last breath; and then you better hope you guessed right!

 Darkbutcomely
Joined: 4/20/2011
Msg: 116
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 8:54:53 PM
You will come to know whether or not this is the case, right at the moment that you breathe out your last breath; and then you better hope you guessed right!


What if it isn't the god YOU believe in? What if it is the god of some long dead race of people the Christen killed??? THEN what??? I love how god's people never really ask what if or the question ?? Too scared?? Prefect love cast out fear BUT fear the lord thy god.
 Kohmelo
Joined: 9/20/2011
Msg: 117
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 8:57:02 PM


one problem with this veiw is the hypothetical make up of the universe as i see it if there is one big bang it is likely that there are others to infinity in infinite space all sharing the same physical laws, occams razor. while they may consist of roughly similar numbers of particles the spaces between them all vary and there are no repeats. if they were all expanding and contracting at different times the various bangs would have impinged on each other and all activity would have died down which itself implies a beginning to activity since eventually activity would have died down alternately all the infinte big bangs could have begun together since there was a beginning to either senario that God exists is certain


In the same case, there sould be an infinite number of gods creating an infinite number of universes all infringing upon each other (blah blah blah)

The differnce between big bang and god creation is a step

God -->universe
vs
universe

And to say man isn't capable of understanding where god came is a complete waste of the brain you claim god gave you.
Way to smack him in the face.
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 118
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 9:11:17 PM

What if it isn't the god YOU believe in?


News flash! If there is indeed a "God"; he(it) won't be anything like ANY human being can ever have possibly imagined through ANY type of 'holy' scripture! You will in accordance be judged(or valued) by your own belief system, which will either serve to indict you or will 'free' you!
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 120
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/1/2012 6:42:44 AM

and to say we just haven't figured it out yet can be a denial and avoidance of the fact that matter shouldn't be here at all. it should not exist. there is no reason. it requires an act of creation according to theories of science. that means there is a God. the alternate theory that it was always here cannot be falsified, cannot be tested, and so is out of the running.


No, to say we haven't figured something out means we haven't figured something out. Which is why there is research.

No, that does not mean matter shouldn't exist. Again...we don't know. It's not a crime to admit there are holes in knowledge. They're not god-shaped.

No. That doesn't mean god(s). And, of course, I'm assuming you mean your preferred concept of god. God(s) is/are a separate proposition which, if you posit existence, the burden of proof is on you.

No, it's not an either/or for existence. Steady state is one theory. Big Bang actually hasn't several models but the evidence is strongly in the favour of the big bang.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 122
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/1/2012 7:18:47 AM

Again "you dont know but you know it's not God" your picking and choosing what you will believe.


Again, you are blaring your ignorance of what the proposition of "atheism" truly is. There is no proof of god.


and that's not science. that's fooling yourself.


Not fooling myself at all. I'm not relying on speculation and wishful thinking to create an image of what I want reality to be. If you actually have EVIDENCE for your god, then present it.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 124
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/1/2012 8:16:02 AM

God could still exist.


So could magic unicorns. Again...evidence!


I am aware that you have a little disconnect that atheism can be separated from an explanation for the existance of the universe and reduced to a lack of belief in god but that is hiding things from yourself.


Repeating the same assertions doesn't make them true. The two are separate questions. In order to unite them, you have to provide actual evidence for the existence of god(s) independent of the existence of the universe, provide a mechanism by which said god(s) created the universe and show evidence of that creation. None of which you have even attempted.

The argument you are attempting is an old one. And it has been thoroughly debunked. Moving on.


and particles cant evolve their capabilites there is no way. so that means there is an absurd explanation, God.


This is a nonsensical statement. What "particles" and what "capabilities" are you attempting to explain through "godidit?"


I have repeated myself several times on why it is not science that the universe has always been here.


Please quote the specific post where I said this was the case. As near as I can tell, this is your own personal strawman. And strawmen are fallacious.


and thats what atheist's need to prove in order for their lack of belief to be true. for it is indeed possible to have a lack of belief in things that are real. many romans did not belive that germs or bacteria or anything smaller than what the eye could see existed. which we now know is not true so your lack of belief could be misleading.


the burden of proof is not on those who make he statement that something likely doesn't exist. It's on those who make the affirmative statement that something does exist. Whether the Romans believed in germs is irrelevant to the discussion.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 126
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/1/2012 10:32:03 AM
McCullough, you attempting to dispute Hawking is ridiculous! Now you're just embarrassing yourself!
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 127
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/1/2012 11:24:12 AM
i agree with Mccullough; Hawking has turned himself into a charlatan. Nobody even knows what the essence of gravity is, much less make such a ridiculous statement.
 Kohmelo
Joined: 9/20/2011
Msg: 129
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/1/2012 7:16:41 PM


I was unclear about how to get around the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle. It is not true.
You take ENTANGLE two particles and measure one for SPEED in one location and the other for DIRECTION in another: SIMULTANEOUSLY. Because they are linked by Entanglement, the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle does not hold true.

Whether that's true or not, it doesn't prove a god.
Nothing you have said does.
If you want to believe, have at it... but don't think you can convince anyone who is educated or has any capability to think rationally with your ill advised logic
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 130
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/1/2012 7:37:22 PM
@Coma


Stephen's statement isn't nonsense.


not only is it nonsense but it borders on the absurd. The world of physics (just like any other field of science) is FULL of crackpots. Unfortunately Hawking has condescended himself to this level just for the purpose of selling books and getting grants. Some years ago, Hawking posited that matter can somehow be lost within a black-hole. In the world of physics, this would have had dire implications. This was eventually debunked by physicist Leonard Suskind, who (for respect of what Hawking accomplished in his heyday) stopped short of calling him a crack-pot! To be fair to hawking, he is not the only. Many others have sold out. If you care to take a look at such an example in the link below, you will see what I mean!

http://www.rebelscience.org/Crackpots/notorious.htm


Everything we can't explain doesn't automatically lead to a supernatural conclusion.


You are right it doesn't but when it pertains to something that does not lend itself to empirical methods of explanation then you cannot rule out a 'supernatural cause' entirely


Would you say "disease is demon possession" if we didn't understand germs yet?


the discovery of the germ theory is something that is amenable to the scientific method. We do not know all that much about the human genome but via further scientific research we soon will. This is not the case with how the Universe was created. It won't lend itself to that type of understanding because all Mathematical/Physical principles are abolished at the level of the so-called singularity. So unless somebody first discovers a whole new branch of physics and math hitherto completely unknown to the human race, that can explain all that is; then we are not getting anywhere. We can be fully assured of it!


Why would any God create a universe and just let it take care of itself?


And why couldn't he? ^ This is an anthropocentrist statement; as though you think what God should(or shouldn't) do; ought to be based on your own world views or experiences!


We're clearly not designed.


I cannot prove to you that there is a God (or designer) so I won't, but that doesn't mean there can't be. If you can fully prove that we are "not designed" then show it to us; otherwise you are plainly talking out of your rear end!
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 132
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/1/2012 9:19:50 PM

I need only demonstrate the impossibility of the universe's existence without God creating it.


But you can't. The reason you can't is not because God doesn't exist. The reason you can't is because if there were a God and he created the universe he created what exists and it has to exist according to specific guidelines that support its existence.

Which BTW would also itself be a claim of multiple universes if you think about it.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 133
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/1/2012 9:57:17 PM

A human can conceptualize a better environment on a computer.


Hahaha. Funny analogy but not even close. Also, what is the engine behind natural selection? The constant improvement. Gradual. Highly specific. Allowing for symbiotic relationships.

Everything else in the universe decays but natural selection organizes.

My thought for the night...
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 134
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/1/2012 10:54:32 PM

Really? If you were designing a universe, you would purpose put a galaxy that supports life on a collision course with another one? Why would you do that? Would you make most of the planets incapable of supporting life? If you can design whatever you want, you could make each planet like paradise. There are a lot of species that aren't improving. Some are extinct and some have stopped evolving.


You’re listing magical unreal things. Unreal things can't exist. Why would you design a car that has a gas tank that blows up? Why would you design a computer system that is susceptible to viruses? Why would you create a legal system that requires that someone be harmed before any act of protection can occur? All those things happened because that’s the way it goes. We design in straight lines. Nature doesn't.

My question still stands though. What is the engine behind natural selection? How is it the only natural thing that continually improves? The only other thing that I am aware of in nature that does this is us. Stars don't. Stars are decaying engines of matter. Cosmic engines. Can you associate natural selection to a Galaxy? Not sure. They do form and over time organize and improve for their environment but only to the point that decay will permit. I hardly think it would make sense that Galaxy's change to suit their environment although they are definitely shaped by it. Is that spiral the best possible formation for a Galaxy to create the best possible environment to allow at least for some brief period of time the right environment to allow for life to thrive.

It is hard to not associate some form personification to it. When you break it down with forces and chemicals and particles you break down the components but that only describes the engines. If you break down a glass of milk into its components it stops being milk also.

And Yes. I do not believe a person sitting at a computer could design a better functioning universe. You have to allow the bad things also. It isn't real if you don't.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 135
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/1/2012 11:43:26 PM
:)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20264620/?GT1=10252

"These complex, self-organized plasma structures exhibit all the necessary properties to qualify them as candidates for inorganic living matter," said study team member V.N. Tsytovich of the Russian Academy of Science


I just randomly found that on google. Didn't find much but it getting spammed all over the internet.

The point is that I wouldn't be so quick to assume the universe is without its own mechanisms to say that natural selection is only relevant to living organisms.
 Oceanside77
Joined: 4/20/2009
Msg: 136
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/2/2012 12:27:02 AM
Quote: My question: For those creationists out there, do ideas in science such as these at all undercut or shake your belief in a god, personal or otherwise? (Honesty would be much appreciated.)

No, there is no reason for such things to undercut someone's religion or beliefs. Science and Religion are not in competition with each other. Both play an important part in life. It is only dualistic, limited views that implant wedges of seperation between things and cause so much stupidity...
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