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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe      Home login  
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 desertrhino
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 78
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the UniversePage 4 of 19    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19)

Each victory gained by science pails(sic) in comparison to the losses experienced.


...says the woman posting to an online forum on a computer in the middle of backwoods Canada.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 79
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 10/20/2010 5:25:51 AM
"backwoods Canada?"

Would that be anywhere north of Highway 7 in Toronto?
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 80
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 10/20/2010 12:04:19 PM
RE Msg: 77 by desertrhino:
I think the point is more that you cannot UNDERSTAND in adequate context, due to the direction and focus of your education to this point, what you read in the serious scientific journals.
Then I cannot falsify anything in it. But if I cannot falsify it, I cannot find it to be true either. So then, I can only take the perspective that it is just as likely to be false or true. All I could do then, is treat it as a hypothetical suggestion that anyone could make, but without validity.

It not that you can't TRUST it.
I trust scientists completely. I trust them to obey the laws of science, just like all inanimate objects, and all animals, including humans. One of this is the principle of scientific induction, which is that if something follows the same pattern of behaviour, then without anything happening that will force it to change its behaviour, it will continue to do so. So, whatever pattern of behaviour can be observed by yourself about a scentists, or about a group of scientists, then by scientific induction, they will continue in such manner.

You just lack the background and training to decide what is reasonable or where there may be holes in the research.
If I cannot say if it is unreasonable, then I cannot say it is reasonable. If I cannot say if it has holes, I cannot say it doesn't. So it becomes something that is equally likely to me, to be unreasonable as much as reasonable, and to have no holes as much as to have 1 hole or 2 holes or 3 holes or more holes. So then I can only take the perspective that it is at best, just as likely to be false or true. All I could do then, is treat it as a hypothetical suggestion that anyone could make, but without validity.
 merelymortal
Joined: 11/24/2009
Msg: 81
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 10/20/2010 11:52:53 PM

Hey merely

You wrote in response to my saying that hawking was expressing an opinion:
"Not really Paul K, Hawking was really just pointing out that something came out of nothing."
What is that if not an opinion??

Then you wrote:
"My point to you was that really, Hawking is outside of his field of expertise... philosophy covers this realm, not physics."

So now you agree that hawking was giving opinion?

Paul K


This was a long time back but I meant to answer it.

Basically, Paul K, I believe that Hawking's opinion that the universe needs no creator to come into existence is an expert opinion being that he is an accomplished physicist. An expert opinion is still an opinion, but it should be given more weight than a layman's opinion.

Now, whether or not god exists outside of the universe is a different question, just because no evidence comes from physics that there has to be a god doesn't mean there isn't a god.

I would say that philosophy answered that question allot longer before science did though. Also, that's why I think that Hawking is simultaneously outside of his field of expertise, but still put his scientific evidence that explains that god doesn't have to exist in order for the universe to exist in the expert category.
 Paul K
Joined: 3/10/2006
Msg: 82
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 10/21/2010 11:56:45 AM
Hey merely

You wrote:

"I would say that philosophy answered that question allot longer before science did though. Also, that's why I think that Hawking is simultaneously outside of his field of expertise, but still put his scientific evidence that explains that god doesn't have to exist in order for the universe to exist in the expert category."

You should be a politician, as you covered both sides of the argument perfectly. I do agree with your current assesment.

You wrote:
"Now, whether or not god exists outside of the universe is a different question, just because no evidence comes from physics that there has to be a god doesn't mean there isn't a god."

Very nicely put, I agree.

Paul K
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 83
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 10/21/2010 12:33:14 PM

Now, whether or not god exists outside of the universe is a different question, just because no evidence comes from physics that there has to be a god doesn't mean there isn't a god.


Doesn't mean there is one, either. The point of Hawking's statement is that God isn't needed to explain the existence of the universe.

And, if God is not the explanation for anything, isn't the consequence of that is that God is not the explanation for anything?
 merelymortal
Joined: 11/24/2009
Msg: 84
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 10/21/2010 3:29:37 PM
stargazer1000:
And, if God is not the explanation for anything, isn't the consequence of that is that God is not the explanation for anything?


Only if nihilism, a valueless existence, is what we want to hold as truth.

We can overcome nihilism without a god, sure, but some sort of creator of values of will ultimately be needed for "the masses"(the majority of non-reflective society of which most physical scientists are themselves a part of) to do so.

Its uncommon for one to be able to look at one's mortality with a straight face and not believe in some sort of meaningful purpose for life. Science provides no meaningful purpose for life. Science doesn't confront mortality, it delays it, ignores it, and tries to defy it. Science is not creative, it merely observes what has been created, by who knows what? Maybe nothing? So natural science is not value creating at all, its value destroying.

So, the question wasn't if god was needed to explain the existence of the universe in the first place, but wether mankind needs a creator of values in order to have a complete and meaningful existence.
 Paul K
Joined: 3/10/2006
Msg: 85
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 10/21/2010 3:36:19 PM
Hey ginger
you wrote:
"science from my point of view has given far more answers than the majority of the religeous books combined."

As it well should. Since you you referred to "religeous books", I will assume that you meant "science books" at the beginning of your statement. I am certain that you wouldn't find many equations or formulas in religious books, as you wouldn't find religious content in books of science either. What some religous teaching purports to do is to explain things that science has no answer for either. Granted, it is a faith level belief, so it can be dismissed by those who don't believe.

I agree with your statement.

Paul K
 merelymortal
Joined: 11/24/2009
Msg: 86
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 10/21/2010 3:55:43 PM
Paul K:
You should be a politician, as you covered both sides of the argument perfectly. I do agree with your current assesment.


Thanks Paul, thats flattering, I doubt I would get very far because to get votes a politician needs to flatter the masses. It would probably be fun to watch me run for public office and be critical of my own electorate.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 87
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 10/21/2010 4:40:07 PM


And, if God is not the explanation for anything, isn't the consequence of that is that God is not the explanation for anything?


Only if nihilism, a valueless existence, is what we want to hold as truth.


Why is that the only alternative, except to demand a false choice of God or nothing? What "meaning" life ultimately has is entirely your own choice. And your own responsibility. However, the constant assertion that only "God" can lay the foundation of a basic moral code is not only wrong, it's at least paternalistic and at worst insulting.


Science doesn't confront mortality, it delays it, ignores it, and tries to defy it. Science is not creative, it merely observes what has been created, by who knows what? Maybe nothing? So natural science is not value creating at all, its value destroying.


Again, utter nonsense! Science does not remove anyone's basic requirement to be good to their fellow human being. Indeed, science has shown that what we term "morality" actually has an evolutionary basis in group behaviours seen in several species.

I'm not religious. I'm at best ambivalent to the concept of "God" and I'm very enthusiastic to the latest findings in a variety of areas of science. Are you trying to say that, on that basis, I lack a basic morality? Well, I think I tend to treat people pretty good and certainly haven't killed anyone yet. Indeed, some of the worst crimes against humanity have been performed in the name of "God."

So the evidence would appear to contradict your supposition.


So, the question wasn't if god was needed to explain the existence of the universe in the first place, but wether mankind needs a creator of values in order to have a complete and meaningful existence.


Please feel free, with as few equivocations and prevarications as possible, to demonstrate how this is true.
 merelymortal
Joined: 11/24/2009
Msg: 88
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 10/21/2010 4:59:23 PM
stargazer1000:
Science does not remove anyone's basic requirement to be good to their fellow human being.


Sure it doesn't, but science also doesn't posit any moral values.


Indeed, science has shown that what we term "morality" actually has an evolutionary basis in group behaviours seen in several species.


What we term as "morality" is a bit deeper that what the scientists are examining in chimps and other animals. Are you saying that animals reflect on their mortality, and that science has confirmed evidence of this? Are you saying that Animals think about justice, and that science has confirmed evidence of this? Sorry, but while I can believe that a chimp group might split up food in a way it thinks its done "fairly", I don't buy that they are thinking about what happens after they die, or that they are contemplating justice and what it is. What you have proposed is just another example of how science breaks everything down to the lowest common denominator. This is exactly the reason why science is not value positing, it doesn't question existence or create anything, it merely observes facts and posits conclusions based on those facts.


Indeed, some of the worst crimes against humanity have been performed in the name of "God."


But those weren't crimes, those were actions of honesty and commitment to belief. If you read some of the wiki links to great book literature I put above maybe you will get a better understanding of what morality is than simply "nice behavior".
 merelymortal
Joined: 11/24/2009
Msg: 89
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 10/21/2010 6:40:58 PM
So, the question wasn't if god was needed to explain the existence of the universe in the first place, but wether mankind needs a creator of values in order to have a complete and meaningful existence.

stargazer1000:

Please feel free, with as few equivocations and prevarications as possible, to demonstrate how this is true.


Do you think that a valueless existence is a full and meaningful existence? Is life just all about being comfortable and peacefully coexisting with every other being on the planet? To me, that sounds allot like living the life of a herd animal. Not questioning which way to go, but following the herd. Not doing anything to upset the norm that is the herd. It is all about being a creature without any beliefs or will of its own. Its just nihilism.

There doesn't need to be a god to create values, but values need a creator. For example, I don't believe in god, but I believe in values. A god didn't create those values though, people did. Those values did not come from science though, because science doesn't affirm moral values. Science lacks that creative power.

You took offense from my claim that science creates no values because you are atheistic. So am I. When I examine where my values come from though, I realize they don't come from science, they are created by mankind.

Even if the animals observed by scientists do have values and morality, science didn't create it. Science is the study of material existence, not moral existence.
 merelymortal
Joined: 11/24/2009
Msg: 90
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 10/21/2010 7:11:39 PM
Oops, I realized i put those links on another thread, this is where morality comes from, philosophy, not science. Science doesn't create culture. Morals come from culture.

Take a quick read through this stuff:

The Republic (Plato): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Republic_(Plato)

The Prince (Machiavelli): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prince

Two Treatises on Government: (Locke) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Treatises_of_Government

The Federalist Papers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_Papers

New Atlantis (Bacon): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Atlantis

Politics and the Arts (Rousseau)

& Nietzsche,

Twilight of the Idols: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twilight_of_the_Idols,

Thus spoke Zarathustra: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thus_Spoke_Zarathustra,

The Anti-christ: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Antichrist_(book),

On the Genealogy of Morality:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Genealogy_of_Morality

After Buddha was dead people showed his shadow for centuries afterwards in a cave,—an immense frightful shadow. God is dead: but as the human race is constituted, there will perhaps be caves for millenniums yet, in which people will show his shadow.—And we—we have still to overcome his shadow! - Nietzsche
 60to70
Joined: 7/28/2008
Msg: 91
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 10/21/2010 10:20:38 PM
I have a problem with all these erudite, faded, dead, wrong men links and when the heck did all these educated unconscious males figure they have the ultimate say because they say it so so much better in their own minds but they died just like the rest of us and you bet you have to follow shadows because the alternative leaves you starved even after good steak and it is the middle of the night and your education runs out and you realize you have much knowledge but you have nothing more. Oh but I invented the Internet and thank you for cancer treatments and don't forget the flippin atom bomb and I really thank you for the power in my indoor lights and heating, but I wonder why it may all be descending into a denominator of have not and I am not thankful to man. Never. Who can buy the wonders of medical science and all of the rest of the whistles and bells when we all begin the steps down the ladder of what we deserve? But it is easier to believe in Man....why not? Man is the ultimate deceiver. Actually...who invented all of these flippin military weapons and ugliness that masks itself as defence and who invented a space program that robbed the poor and etc. Peace.
 merelymortal
Joined: 11/24/2009
Msg: 92
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 10/21/2010 10:29:33 PM
That was allot to allege in very poor grammar without any support 60 to 70.
 60to70
Joined: 7/28/2008
Msg: 93
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 10/21/2010 10:42:48 PM
Hey grammar is part of the plot of keeping your mind indoctrinated, you know? And by the way can I correct you? "that was allot" should be typed, yes typed...as...." that was a lot..." without any support? Who are you to say so? Allege is based on my evidence and wide reading and a heck of lot of experience. I actually respect results more than you, and the rest. And do not be lazy in your keyboard skills... it has a lot to say about your character as you feel so free to remark about mine. Lol.
 merelymortal
Joined: 11/24/2009
Msg: 94
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 10/22/2010 1:28:22 AM
60 to 70: "Indoctrinated" you call me, as if you are free, but who the hell taught you to be rude and type in a way that is hard to read? I don't type to be a "special" person like you that is better than the rest of us who at least do our best to make it easy for other people who take the time to read what we write.

You said that the great thinkers who I provided as examples of value positing men were no better than the rest of us because they were mortal... well, guess what... if they weren't mortal, then they wouldn't be very good value creators for mortals, because the same rules of life wouldn't apply.

I'm not really sure what your point was other that nihilism. You are a nothing believer. Sure, you can argue against everything, including trying to make anything you write easy for others to read, but thats only to be a difficult person to be with.

People like you are truly worthless even to the most easy and accepting type of person that can be. I'd be surprised if most people who know you enjoy your company.
 60to70
Joined: 7/28/2008
Msg: 95
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 10/24/2010 10:21:53 PM
I only reminded you that you can also take some lecturing. And...how you got from that to telling me that nobody enjoys my company is just plain wrong. The end.
 FoshFish
Joined: 4/30/2010
Msg: 96
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 10/24/2010 10:26:32 PM
"Stephen Hawking is almost completely paralyzed, he speaks through a computer, his is eternally limp as wilted lettuce and he poops into a bag.
/
Is it any wonder that he doesn't believe in God?"

I think it's more of a miracle, actually.
 FoshFish
Joined: 4/30/2010
Msg: 97
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 10/24/2010 10:32:41 PM
Even Stevie can't know. He is not saying that, is he?

Oh, and about expert opinion: The Pontiff says there is a god.

Which expert should I believe? Especially about as important and useless an information whether there is god or no?

Hawking is a physicist. The pope does not design Hadron Colliders.

I think people should do their business what they've been hired for. It's against union rules for a physicist to clean house in a spiritual matter, much like your parish priest should not dabble in discussions on evolution.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 98
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 10/26/2010 9:34:37 PM
it's always easy to call something a "Stupid","pseudo", or "invalid" question when you dont want to deal with the answer. as long as the question - why is there something instead of nothing? - is a genuine one. God remains a possible answer. additionally the spirit of science has always been one of curiosity it seems unusual that such a lack of curiosity should appear and no science of logic be applied to the question I think the question "why is there some thing instead of nothing"?. is legitimate. that there is probably no way of testing scientificly to see if the something of the universe has been here forever that means the origin or lack of origin of the universe cannot be scientifically discovered or proven.
 StrawberryBurns
Joined: 9/18/2010
Msg: 99
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 11/11/2010 5:23:54 PM
I've been reading a book called "The Scientists" ( a history of Science as told through the lives of some it's greatest contributors). In every single chapter that I've read so far there has been instance after instance of scientists being pressured, persecuted, tried by the Inquisition, being the subject of brutal assassination attempts, and being put to death for going against the popular religious beliefs of the day with their observations and research. How these scientists had to be very careful, how at times they had to publicly go against their own work to save their own lives, and would have to conduct work in secret. Religion in general has played a huge role in the stunting of the growth of science and technology. Why? Why would constant fear of knowledge and enlightenment be so ingrained in the religious communities of many different religions throughout history? It's about power, it's about the ability to keep the followers of your flock in your pocket. If they can be shown a reasonable explanation for something that goes against what the hierarchy of their religion wants them to believe, then that is perceived as a threat, when in reality it's just curiosity. When you see someone being overly defensive about something, don't it trip your radar? Science is not charged with the duty of disproving God, yet religion gets overly defensive and accuses science of it, it drags science into it's path so that science is given no choice but to address it. Religion has been like a bully on the playground who made your life miserable, and no matter how hard you tried to mind your own business and just do your own thing, religion would always be there ready to pounce. Now Science is no longer the pale thin kid on the playground. It has steadily sought the knowledge and truths of the world around us and the universe that world is in, which has given science strength and a high level of credibility. Non intentional byproducts of the truths science has sought have translated on an ever expanding scale into explanations of what used to be credited to the divine. Slowly but surely, these explanations have done away with a lot of the smoke and mirrors used by religion for a lot of us. I'm not surprised at the attention Hawking's book and statements are getting, it's par for the course. I'm just glad he's able to speak his mind without fear of being burned at the stake, stoned, or beheaded. If he were a scientist in another part of the world, he could be restricted greatly due to fear of prison or death if his research went against the controlling religion of the region. When you look at a lot of countries that are strictly governed by religion you find some pretty scary and horrific stuff going on. Religion has had to change it's game in a lot of countries though, that's why it is seeking to creep it's way into politics (especially in the US) at an ever increasing rate. Instead of burning scientists at the stake, we have lobbyists and special interest groups behind the scenes controlling politicians like puppets, trying to legislate itself back into power. FRC ring any bells???? Separation of Church and State in America is under attack in my opinion.

And while we are addressing the subject of creating, there is also the creation of hype and controversy on the part of the media to sell magazines, papers, get net views, and whatever else they can sell.
 johnemanuel
Joined: 7/22/2007
Msg: 100
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 11/13/2010 2:14:19 PM
Unfortunately, you are correct in your analyses of how evil men have tried to control religion to enslave fellow humans in order to control the natural resources to support and protect their own existence and actually perhaps more true because they have no recognition of their own behavior in the drama of their own existance. And then there are not so evil people who are acting in a capacity to promote their own concepts of how man MUST relate to others and be subordinate to their idea of God. It may surprize you that as a born again Christian dare I say, i wholeheartedly hope and pray for this separation and so did our Lord who inspired a noble writer to declare that pure religion and undefiled is to visit the widows and the fatherless in their affliction. So within what the world eroneously conceives to be the religios faction are people who know that in light of no emperical evidence to the contrary the best we can do is Love God and each other and go on about the business of living. If you asked me why i know God is real i really cant give you an answer because the truth is you have to know - to know..Aand really there comes a certain time in life if one lives long enough that you dont really care if people who believe in their own intellectual superiority or rather have bona fide reasons within themselves for not believing or who go as far as attacking or ridiculing other humans humans on the basis of what they believe, because if you have lived long enough you realize that in really a very few short years you will be in a better position to argue about these questions of God, for instance you will continue to exist or will not exist, and no one regardless of their level of intelligence or the number of books they written or read, no matter what group they belong to or position they take, at that time they will surely know. Now for sure there are people here on earth who actually DO know an awful lot about heavenly things but they would not waste their time trying to convince someone who is charmed by there own intelligence that what they know is real. There is a distinct possibility that the universe is in essence a giant computer and 40 billions years of sparks flashing in cosmic ooze under pressure "could " have resulted in this beautiful smiling creature sitting next to me who knows me as her dad ajd loves......or God really is real and He has given us this life to work out some choices on the physical plain to acheive some purpose we are not really sure of at this time. Personally i believe atheist's are lazy but that's just my opinion. I have heard most of the insults and ridicule and observations on what man has done in the name of God and i find that you dont have to believe or disbelieve to be rude arrogant smug etc i just actually feel good knowing it wont be that long before i know the answer to the question i have thought about for most of my life. i am convinced that it will be either absolutely nothing or it will be everything.... so i am of the mind that since there is a distinct possibility that it will be everything i am now totally free to love my fellow beings and be of service to God and man. if you of the intelligentsia find whatever proof there is to have worth in this life with reason to not believe there is still the certainty that one day you will know for sure. thats all i'm saying.....
 StrawberryBurns
Joined: 9/18/2010
Msg: 101
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 11/14/2010 4:00:11 PM

i am now totally free to love my fellow beings


Why did you feel you weren't free to do that before? I have never understood why people think you have to have religion or belief in a God to tell you the difference between right and wrong, to act with love and compassion toward those around you. I'm non religious, but I am peace loving, I volunteer, I know it's wrong to murder, etc. I had someone ask me once how on Earth I expected to raise my kids to be decent human beings without believing in man's concept of god and teaching it to them. (that's not verbatim but close) I responded by telling them that my kids can be taught values without the use of a god as a platform. I've taught my kids that murder is wrong, not because a god says so, but because it's wrong...period. Same goes for a lot of other values. And I have never forbidden my kids from going to church or exploring religion. I feel that something as important as a belief in a god, or non belief in a god, and aligning one's self with a denomination or not aligning one's self, is a very serious matter that should be given much thought. How would a child be able to make such a decision with a brain that isn't even close to being fully developed? I have moved past what I consider to be the brainwashing I had done on me as a child and have refused to pass that brain washing on to my kids. They are free to do their own investigation of religion and make their own decisions based on what the feel is right for them.



atheist's are lazy but that's just my opinion


Now for sure there are people here on earth who actually DO know an awful lot about heavenly things but they would not waste their time trying to convince someone who is charmed by there own intelligence that what they know is real.


Why are Atheists lazy? What are you basing that opinion on? I don't see Hawking as being charmed by his own intelligence as you put it. I see Science as being a hard working constant investigator of the nature of the universe. And I see religion as close minded, using faith to justify discontinuing the quest for reality based logical answers. Which seems to be more lazy to me than constant investigation. These people who you claim "actually DO know" about heavenly things, how do you know they actually know? Because they say they do? Science is about observation, investigation, tests, documentation, repetition of the experiments by other Scientists. Religion is about knowing something because someone told you to believe it based on faith, and not on any kind of proof.

I don't believe in man's version of God. I believe we are clueless as to even a tiny fraction of the workings of the universe. (which again shows the need for Science to continue it's quest for answers) We base all religions on the words of so called prophets who have been long gone. If someone came up to you on the street and professed to be a prophet or even a messiah, and told you God had spoken to him, would you believe them or consider them to be mentally ill? Mentally ill people claiming to be a messiah is something that we treat with medication now because we have an understanding of mental illness . There is also, for example, the cases of severe temporal lobe epileptics having intense religious experiences during seizures and coming out of it believing themselves to be a god or messenger from a god. The work of V.S. Ramachandran has been very enlightening on this subject.

Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIiIsDIkDtg

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5z4B5BYbjf8
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 102
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 11/14/2010 4:31:11 PM
RE Msg: 103 by StrawberryBurns:
I have never understood why people think you have to have religion or belief in a God to tell you the difference between right and wrong, to act with love and compassion toward those around you.
It's very simple. Not everyone is like you.
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