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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe      Home login  
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 johnemanuel
Joined: 7/22/2007
Msg: 101
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the UniversePage 5 of 19    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19)
Unfortunately, you are correct in your analyses of how evil men have tried to control religion to enslave fellow humans in order to control the natural resources to support and protect their own existence and actually perhaps more true because they have no recognition of their own behavior in the drama of their own existance. And then there are not so evil people who are acting in a capacity to promote their own concepts of how man MUST relate to others and be subordinate to their idea of God. It may surprize you that as a born again Christian dare I say, i wholeheartedly hope and pray for this separation and so did our Lord who inspired a noble writer to declare that pure religion and undefiled is to visit the widows and the fatherless in their affliction. So within what the world eroneously conceives to be the religios faction are people who know that in light of no emperical evidence to the contrary the best we can do is Love God and each other and go on about the business of living. If you asked me why i know God is real i really cant give you an answer because the truth is you have to know - to know..Aand really there comes a certain time in life if one lives long enough that you dont really care if people who believe in their own intellectual superiority or rather have bona fide reasons within themselves for not believing or who go as far as attacking or ridiculing other humans humans on the basis of what they believe, because if you have lived long enough you realize that in really a very few short years you will be in a better position to argue about these questions of God, for instance you will continue to exist or will not exist, and no one regardless of their level of intelligence or the number of books they written or read, no matter what group they belong to or position they take, at that time they will surely know. Now for sure there are people here on earth who actually DO know an awful lot about heavenly things but they would not waste their time trying to convince someone who is charmed by there own intelligence that what they know is real. There is a distinct possibility that the universe is in essence a giant computer and 40 billions years of sparks flashing in cosmic ooze under pressure "could " have resulted in this beautiful smiling creature sitting next to me who knows me as her dad ajd loves......or God really is real and He has given us this life to work out some choices on the physical plain to acheive some purpose we are not really sure of at this time. Personally i believe atheist's are lazy but that's just my opinion. I have heard most of the insults and ridicule and observations on what man has done in the name of God and i find that you dont have to believe or disbelieve to be rude arrogant smug etc i just actually feel good knowing it wont be that long before i know the answer to the question i have thought about for most of my life. i am convinced that it will be either absolutely nothing or it will be everything.... so i am of the mind that since there is a distinct possibility that it will be everything i am now totally free to love my fellow beings and be of service to God and man. if you of the intelligentsia find whatever proof there is to have worth in this life with reason to not believe there is still the certainty that one day you will know for sure. thats all i'm saying.....
 StrawberryBurns
Joined: 9/18/2010
Msg: 102
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 11/14/2010 4:00:11 PM

i am now totally free to love my fellow beings


Why did you feel you weren't free to do that before? I have never understood why people think you have to have religion or belief in a God to tell you the difference between right and wrong, to act with love and compassion toward those around you. I'm non religious, but I am peace loving, I volunteer, I know it's wrong to murder, etc. I had someone ask me once how on Earth I expected to raise my kids to be decent human beings without believing in man's concept of god and teaching it to them. (that's not verbatim but close) I responded by telling them that my kids can be taught values without the use of a god as a platform. I've taught my kids that murder is wrong, not because a god says so, but because it's wrong...period. Same goes for a lot of other values. And I have never forbidden my kids from going to church or exploring religion. I feel that something as important as a belief in a god, or non belief in a god, and aligning one's self with a denomination or not aligning one's self, is a very serious matter that should be given much thought. How would a child be able to make such a decision with a brain that isn't even close to being fully developed? I have moved past what I consider to be the brainwashing I had done on me as a child and have refused to pass that brain washing on to my kids. They are free to do their own investigation of religion and make their own decisions based on what the feel is right for them.



atheist's are lazy but that's just my opinion


Now for sure there are people here on earth who actually DO know an awful lot about heavenly things but they would not waste their time trying to convince someone who is charmed by there own intelligence that what they know is real.


Why are Atheists lazy? What are you basing that opinion on? I don't see Hawking as being charmed by his own intelligence as you put it. I see Science as being a hard working constant investigator of the nature of the universe. And I see religion as close minded, using faith to justify discontinuing the quest for reality based logical answers. Which seems to be more lazy to me than constant investigation. These people who you claim "actually DO know" about heavenly things, how do you know they actually know? Because they say they do? Science is about observation, investigation, tests, documentation, repetition of the experiments by other Scientists. Religion is about knowing something because someone told you to believe it based on faith, and not on any kind of proof.

I don't believe in man's version of God. I believe we are clueless as to even a tiny fraction of the workings of the universe. (which again shows the need for Science to continue it's quest for answers) We base all religions on the words of so called prophets who have been long gone. If someone came up to you on the street and professed to be a prophet or even a messiah, and told you God had spoken to him, would you believe them or consider them to be mentally ill? Mentally ill people claiming to be a messiah is something that we treat with medication now because we have an understanding of mental illness . There is also, for example, the cases of severe temporal lobe epileptics having intense religious experiences during seizures and coming out of it believing themselves to be a god or messenger from a god. The work of V.S. Ramachandran has been very enlightening on this subject.

Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIiIsDIkDtg

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5z4B5BYbjf8
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 103
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 11/14/2010 4:31:11 PM
RE Msg: 103 by StrawberryBurns:
I have never understood why people think you have to have religion or belief in a God to tell you the difference between right and wrong, to act with love and compassion toward those around you.
It's very simple. Not everyone is like you.
 RATHLINLIGHTHOUSE
Joined: 2/10/2009
Msg: 104
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 11/15/2010 9:05:44 PM
stargazer >>>
And, if God is not the explanation for anything, isn't the consequence of that is that God is not the explanation for anything?

There is absolutely no reason to invoke a God to explain a universe. However there remains the mystery of why there are people who live among mosquitoes and moose in Canada. Surely there must be a Devil.?
 johnemanuel
Joined: 7/22/2007
Msg: 105
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 11/27/2010 9:05:40 AM
The point is that there is an experience beyond which people who do not believe call religion and that is a system of things man has manufactured which is totally based on rules and regulations outside the scope of science and in most of the cases you mention are responsible for the sins of the " church " however well intentioned the whole thing started out but look to your own nature and consider the miracle of your children and see if that unconditional love you have for them is something that is quantifiable or explainable within the parlayance of quantum physics.....
 Paul K
Joined: 3/10/2006
Msg: 106
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 11/27/2010 1:19:37 PM
I would be a lot more impressed with Hawkings statements if he only had the common sense to post on this thread........

until then............. oh well.

Paul K
 RATHLINLIGHTHOUSE
Joined: 2/10/2009
Msg: 107
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 11/27/2010 3:24:57 PM
It appears Hawking is considering the old model of the single event Big Bang universe

It now appears the universe is a result of continuous vibration or wave type propagation universe

ie GOD throws a pebble in a pond universe

http://iopscience.iop.org/0004-637X/724/1/374/?rss=1.0
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-11837869

GOD doesnt play dice he throws the dice in his pond
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 108
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 8:19:49 AM
t o be con vicing atheist have to explain how the universe started and they cant do that you cant just say things rubbed and the universe appeared or a 2 -d hit a1-d and it appeared or its a continuous wave you have to prove those things are real and then you have to show where those things come from so its just a shell game and science is a definition of a process and not the definition of an outcome and covers many feilds and therefore can include the discovery of God. atheist have no time machine they can not prove that matter has always been here even if they did they could not go back eternally so thats not science and those virtual particle that just appear while that could always be a miricle of God that you were witnessing or those could be composite particle made of even smaller particle that were bundling up forming onelarge enough for the insturments to detect that's a more scientifc explaination than they are just appearing. so we are left atheist cant prove by science their contentions and a creation wins by default though it was at least 14 billion years ago and is not the god of the bible.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 109
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 8:31:04 AM

t o be con vicing atheist have to explain how the universe started


Um....no they don't. You clearly have no understanding of what atheism is. Here. Let me help you with that.


a·the·ism   [ey-thee-iz-uhm] noun
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2.disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.


It's not a cosmological question. It's not a question of origins.

I don't believe in a god(s) and no theist has ever given me good enough reason to accept the notion that one or more exists. The things you cite as "problems" aren't problems. They're simply fields of ongoing research.

Of course, to scientists it's usually "I don't know, therefore more research." To theists like yourself, it's "I don't know, therefore god." It's really quite lazy and it's not how you are here now, able to type your rambling prose on a computer.


atheist have no time machine


Neither do theists and they cannot go back in time to observe divine creation or see god snapping his fingers and making everything pop into existence.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 110
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 9:05:43 AM
it may be that atheism is a disbelif or lack of belief in the Gods in which case it is also a denial of reality as there is no other explanation for the existanse of the universe. there is no further research that can be done. all the result are in. there is no other explanation than divine creation. to claim that further research needs to be done is denial. a start to the universe although not directly observable like so many things in science is predictable. if physical law had operated for eternity matter would be uniformly distributed in the universe and unmoving, infinitely ordered and it would have never and there could never be any change. and it is beginning tto look as if people like leonard krause know this and are out to decieve people delibrately now while the god of the bible may not exist, there is a God and some people don't want other people to know or belive
 Coma White
Joined: 4/11/2004
Msg: 111
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 9:39:50 AM

it may be that atheism is a disbelif or lack of belief in the Gods in which case it is also a denial of reality as there is no other explanation for the existanse of the universe.


Since we're just guessing now, why can't we guess that Bumba had a pain in his stomach and threw up the sun, the stars and the planets? This is the belief of the Bantu tribe in Africa.


there is no further research that can be done. all the result are in.


No, they're not. That's like saying "all the results are in" once you discover that the world isn't flat. You're delusional if you think science isn't advancing at a steady pace.


there is no other explanation than divine creation. to claim that further research needs to be done is denial.


Further research is being done though. Saying "God did it" doesn't answer anything because it doesn't explain where God came from.


if physical law had operated for eternity matter would be uniformly distributed in the universe and unmoving, infinitely ordered and it would have never and there could never be any change.


That's simply not true. Space expanded with the occurrence of the big bang. It makes no sense that everything would be still. Matter was carried along with the expanding space.


there is a God and some people don't want other people to know or belive


You made the claim, now show proof.
 Paul K
Joined: 3/10/2006
Msg: 112
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 11:23:23 AM
The latest on Hawking is that he is a regular at a "sex club" in So Cal....................

I guess certain universes still expand...............

:) :) :) :)

Paul K

PS

Hey Coma...... here is the eternal question......... where did the "stuff" that exploded in the big bang come from?
 ProcolHarem
Joined: 8/29/2008
Msg: 113
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 12:57:53 PM
there is a God and some people don't want other people to know or belive

You made the claim, now show proof.


I guess when proof can be shown that there is no God, the other side will no longer need to show proof that there IS.

One of those things where neither side can actually prove their point huh?
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 114
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 6:21:23 PM
It is not nessacary to show where God came from in order to demon strate that he indeed made the universe no matter how much one might wish to knowa nd many might refuse to belive unless their curiosity were satisfied but there is no answer to that question inded God himself does not know and it's mystery is nessacary for our our kind of intelligence (for god and we share the same type of intelligence other wise he would not recognise us as smart) so we arenever, never going to know. never, never going to know where God came from. not even God who has a limited intelligence of about ten thousand.
as to your inability to imagine what physical laws operating for eternity would do . it is not an alternate senario in competition with the big bang. rather it is an imagination of a universe that had no start. for a universe with out a God can have no start. it is chicanary to say there can be an endless series of starts that have no start. it is possible to imagine but one can imagine a great many thing that are not true. and a universe without a start can never change. while scientists have ben good about demonstrating the the existence they have not been good about explaining how it got to be there or why it exploded when it did in eternity. and where it got its momentum and science is a definition ofa process not an out come and it applies to many feilds and it isnt the same thing as proclaiming the bible as the word of god and that it should be taken literally and they have been a little prejudiced.
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 115
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 6:27:54 PM

if physical law had operated for eternity matter would be uniformly distributed in the universe and unmoving, infinitely ordered and it would have never and there could never be any change.


I tend to agree, but then there are those who might say that the the Universe was always there except that is goes through phases of expansion and contraction like an accordion . But if that were true, what would be the point of this type of see-saw.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 116
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 7:27:51 PM
one problem with this veiw is the hypothetical make up of the universe as i see it if there is one big bang it is likely that there are others to infinity in infinite space all sharing the same physical laws, occams razor. while they may consist of roughly similar numbers of particles the spaces between them all vary and there are no repeats. if they were all expanding and contracting at different times the various bangs would have impinged on each other and all activity would have died down which itself implies a beginning to activity since eventually activity would have died down alternately all the infinte big bangs could have begun together since there was a beginning to either senario that God exists is certain
 Darkbutcomely
Joined: 4/20/2011
Msg: 117
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 7:40:37 PM
If god created the universe. WHO created god? And if nothing came from nothing why then can't the universe come from nothing??
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 118
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 7:51:52 PM

If god created the universe. WHO created god?


God is not something that is subject to being "created". That is why he (or it) is called God (I prefer the term 'cosmic creator')


And if nothing came from nothing why then can't the universe come from nothing??


because nothing from nothing always equals nothing (0 + 0 = 0); and since the universe is made of 'something' so it cannot come from nothing!

 Paul K
Joined: 3/10/2006
Msg: 119
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 7:53:35 PM
Hey complex

You asked:
"WHO created god?"

Most thiests will answer that with "God always was, he has no beginning and has no end." I prefer an answer that makes more sense.......... I don't know because it is beyond the level of comprehension of humans. Sort of like trying to teach my cat math........

That still leaves the question of where matter/energy originated.

Paul K
 Darkbutcomely
Joined: 4/20/2011
Msg: 120
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 8:33:48 PM
Why is it so hard to believe the universe started with a bang but BUT very acceptable to think that a being who has always been, created the universe?? This confuses me. Oh yea god has always been BUT the universe is too complex to not to have created by something. So if the universe is that complex how complex must be the being who created it and who created the being who created the universe??? AND who created the being who created the being who created the being who created the being who created the being who created the universe? God has always been requires faith. Without it you can not wrap your head around it. And the bible says you have to faith of a child.... So don't ask. Just go with it. Well I can't. I cant just go with it. I need these answers.
When my children asked questions I really did try to give them the best answers I could. Even if I had to dumb it down. But we aren't given any answers and told what I consider the dumbest down answer ever,,,,,, just believe, have faith.
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 121
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 8:45:55 PM

BUT god is made from nothing....


You will come to know whether or not this is the case, right at the moment that you breathe out your last breath; and then you better hope you guessed right!

 Darkbutcomely
Joined: 4/20/2011
Msg: 122
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 8:54:53 PM
You will come to know whether or not this is the case, right at the moment that you breathe out your last breath; and then you better hope you guessed right!


What if it isn't the god YOU believe in? What if it is the god of some long dead race of people the Christen killed??? THEN what??? I love how god's people never really ask what if or the question ?? Too scared?? Prefect love cast out fear BUT fear the lord thy god.
 Kohmelo
Joined: 9/20/2011
Msg: 123
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 8:57:02 PM


one problem with this veiw is the hypothetical make up of the universe as i see it if there is one big bang it is likely that there are others to infinity in infinite space all sharing the same physical laws, occams razor. while they may consist of roughly similar numbers of particles the spaces between them all vary and there are no repeats. if they were all expanding and contracting at different times the various bangs would have impinged on each other and all activity would have died down which itself implies a beginning to activity since eventually activity would have died down alternately all the infinte big bangs could have begun together since there was a beginning to either senario that God exists is certain


In the same case, there sould be an infinite number of gods creating an infinite number of universes all infringing upon each other (blah blah blah)

The differnce between big bang and god creation is a step

God -->universe
vs
universe

And to say man isn't capable of understanding where god came is a complete waste of the brain you claim god gave you.
Way to smack him in the face.
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 124
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 9:11:17 PM

What if it isn't the god YOU believe in?


News flash! If there is indeed a "God"; he(it) won't be anything like ANY human being can ever have possibly imagined through ANY type of 'holy' scripture! You will in accordance be judged(or valued) by your own belief system, which will either serve to indict you or will 'free' you!
 Coma White
Joined: 4/11/2004
Msg: 125
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 9:16:03 PM

I guess when proof can be shown that there is no God, the other side will no longer need to show proof that there IS.


You can never be called upon to prove a negative. That's just silly.
That's like me claiming that a Magical Shoe exists in a parallel dinension and asking you to prove it doesn't exist. The burden of proof always falls upon those making the claim.

Just because we haven't figured out where all the matter from the big bang came from yet, doesn't mean we should conclude that it was by supernatural intervention.
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