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 Samhein
Joined: 7/20/2010
Msg: 137
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the UniversePage 5 of 19    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19)

I need only demonstrate the impossibility of the universe's existance without God creating it.

You have unequivocally failed to do so.
 Samhein
Joined: 7/20/2010
Msg: 138
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/2/2012 1:20:08 AM

And Yes. I do not believe a person sitting at a computer could design a better functioning universe. You have to allow the bad things also. It isn't real if you don't.
If you're designing an entire universe, and designed it without bad things happening.. then yes, it WOULD be real, for that universe.
 MikeWM
Joined: 2/7/2011
Msg: 139
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/2/2012 4:42:16 AM
That would be the optiverse which is where all the optimists live innit?
 Samhein
Joined: 7/20/2010
Msg: 140
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/2/2012 4:51:55 AM
And your God-name would be Optimus Prime
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 142
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/2/2012 9:07:17 AM
I think you are forgetting that it is almost impossible for science to say something is 100% true.

You are taking that small percentage of uncertainty and turning it into your own 100% truth that life is artificially created from a spontaneous generation.

You are stating things as absolutes when they just cannot be stated that way. It doesn't mean that the things you think are out the window as the day’s garbage. It means that absolutes are incredibly rare and pinhead humans require doubt to grow and learn.

Have you ever been interested in a learning a very specific something. Could be anything like learning how to cook fried chicken. You can spend days, weeks, months, even years working out the fine details until one day you finally create your desired result and you sit back and push your empty plate back and then you are done. From then on you have your fried chicken the way you like it. You are now off on a new quest to learn the art of sushi and your chicken is forever within the range of your desired result. You lose interest in the chicken because you are done with it. You may occasionally enjoy it but there is no longer any quest for a result.

Being 100% absolute about things has a similar effect. You are so confident in being right that absolutely everything reinforces your absoluteness and anything that doesn't is ignorant and not worth your time. Your plate of fried chicken is in front of you and it is done. You may not have moved on to sushi yet but black holes as gateways to alternate universes will come.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 144
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/2/2012 10:22:28 AM

not artificial created from a spontaneous generation created by a God. spontaneous creation requires a explaination. as does the universe. scientists are stuck on the notion that the explanation of the universe is logical when it isn't


ok let me correct my sentence for you.

You are taking that small percentage of uncertainty and turning it into your own 100% truth that life is artificially created from a spontaneous generation.


You are taking that small percentage of uncertainty and turning it into your own 100% truth at life is artificially created from a random chance event where the building blocks of life chemically bonded to give rise to evolving life.

If that isn't it you can substitute that second half with anything that fits your mold. The rest of what I said still stands.
 ericwashere123
Joined: 1/30/2012
Msg: 149
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/2/2012 7:40:58 PM
I don't get why religious people get so bent out of shape over science!! i mean, science does not deal with, nor care about any questions that are related to "god!" why... because such questions are not testable. Therefore, creationist are extremely ignorant and left behind and that's why, in my opinion, they get upset with science!!! oh and the one sentence that Darwin wrote in his book "maybe this might help shed light on the origin of man." that is all he every mentioned in respects to humans and evolution. please don't forget that Darwin was a god fearing man himself but was also scientist, and therefore, published the results of his research unadulterated.
 Samhein
Joined: 7/20/2010
Msg: 150
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/3/2012 6:00:02 AM

: not artificial created from a spontaneous generation created by a God.


Essentially they are the same thing.

Look, you have an extremely basic 'grasp' - and I'm using the term loosely - on a few large scientific concepts, mixing them up with words and definitions that don't apply if you actually knew said scientific concepts, then claiming they are impossible and injecting your God into them.

Just because you don't understand established scientific concepts yourself, doesn't mean your backward religious dogma is proven.

Your modern life runs on a world where these sciences are used correctly. Your life is essentially as it is, because our ideas on evolution and the Big Bang etc are correct. Just frickin deal with it.
 What_He_Said
Joined: 1/11/2012
Msg: 152
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/3/2012 6:40:07 AM
Some good post about this topic.

From my POV:

If someone is a believer (of whatever faith or denomination) then what anyone says may not have all that much impact on your particular belief system. Mostly because it is an article of faith.

But I tend to doubt that anyone who believes to the contrary will by swayed by any argument(s). No matter who the proponent of those arguments is, or what is background or claim to fame might be. At least in one sitting or one reading.

If you are a believer then you will an all likely hood still believe. If you are agnostic you will presumably still doubt. If you are an atheist you will still deny.
 Samhein
Joined: 7/20/2010
Msg: 153
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/3/2012 7:02:49 AM

No,you deal with it. your ideas are not correct. you can not demonstrate them. as i have demonstrated to you. and you have not rebutted. you have simply made claims and denials you have not offered one test which may be publicly done which physically demonstrates that the universe has been here, forever. it's on you.

No, really, it's you.
One tactic of the scientifically unaware is to make people cite references over and over, ignoring the last set, causing people to get tired of even trying, and then claiming some odd victory.

The fact of the matter is, you don't understand the science. That's not the sciences' problem. It's yours.

You haven't demonstrated a SINGLE THING. All your propositions are based on wishful thinking and have no scientific basis. they cannot be proved as they rely on magic.

What test have you offered that demonstrates a designed universe? What test have you offered which creates an alternative theory [in the real, scientific sense, ie. based on the evidence] to anything we are talking about? You make childish demands that you yourself totally fail at accomplishing.

here's a quick Q I am sure you'll be embarrassed not to answer: What scientific elimination process ahve you demonstrated which removes ALL other Gods from the equation as creator and left only your God? That's a question no imbecile IDer has ever bothered even considering, in my experience. In order to prove a creator you must ALSO identify said creator. What studies have been done to prove it's /your/ version of a God?

Odds are it's probably mine, and not yours.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 155
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/3/2012 8:08:54 AM
Mccullough - What is the reason that you are required to be so right? It isn't just that you think God(s) may have existed or that life was created artificially or really anything else at all. It is that you think you are correct and are calling any disagreement to the above as wrong.

Most of what has been proven by science does not support design or Gods. But that is not surprising. There has not been proof that matter has existed forever. There is even a theory on the possible age of the universe. There isn't proof for what occurred prior to the universe but there is math that shows that maybe it could be that there are multiple universes.

I can't grasp the math because I suck at math. I trust that others have reviewed the math and did not laugh their heads off at its absurdity giving it that little bit more credibility.

'Only Absolute Truth is that there are No Absolute Truths'. -Socrates
 Samhein
Joined: 7/20/2010
Msg: 156
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/3/2012 8:29:29 AM

it is you who are making me cite the reference over and over without answering it and no, i dont have to identify said creator personally


What references HAVE you cited?

And yes, you've already identified the creator you think is: God. We know what God that is. Your faulty reasoning points to exactly what God you follow.

Or are you admitting Odin made the first pair of humans?

Your attempts at diversion are rather sophomoric.
 Samhein
Joined: 7/20/2010
Msg: 158
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/3/2012 8:33:52 AM
Basically, QED. Thank you.
 Samhein
Joined: 7/20/2010
Msg: 160
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/3/2012 10:12:30 AM
Again, no I don't have to prove any God didn't do it, you have to prove a God DID do it, because you claim one did against all evidence. The evidence IS public, you just choose not to believe it, because it endangers your idea of God.

And, well, look at that, you really do believe in the God of the Bible, despite all your misdirections. Well done.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 164
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/4/2012 3:29:05 AM

it is you who are making me cite the reference over and over without answering it...

You haven't cited any references. At all.
All you've done is make wild, illogical, and/or irrational claims.


your ideas are not correct. you can not demonstrate them. as i have demonstrated to you. and you have not rebutted.

You haven't 'demonstrated' anything other than a lack of understanding and a fondness for bizarre speculation.
There's nothing to 'rebut' since you don't even try to substantiate anything you're saying (for obvious reasons).

It would be easy, though time consuming, to point out the fallacies in the enormous number of baseless assumptions you make but there'd be no point since it's obvious you're impervious to reason.
As a 'for instance', your most recent post -


well the universe is ordered and is moving, which indicate it had a start and was designed by intelligence.
An unsupported assumption.

if it had always been here under physical law operating for infinity things would be different.
An unsupported guess.

so i'm pretty sure it was a God and if it was magic it was intelligent magic close enough to a god that ill just call it that.
A bizarre statement.

and the law of the conservation of mass is just an observation. and doesn't prove mass was not created. Only that once it was created it was conserved.
An irrelevancy.

Go back to basics. Your speculations took a wrong turn somewhere such that your opinions are now only semi-rational highly subjective guesses with little correspondence to observed reality.
 Samhein
Joined: 7/20/2010
Msg: 165
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/4/2012 6:27:16 AM
@samhein well there is the theory that the God of the bible made the universe about 6200 year ago to look likeit washere 14 billion and that he caused the flood and erased all the evidence i dont belive it, but you can believe i belive it, because you believe matter has always been here, somewhere, without any proof.

Really, where did I say that? Please quote me.

Oh, that's right, you just like making stuff up.

By the way, that thing about God making the universe there in your quote, is an hypothesis, not a theory. Theories come from evidence.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 166
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/4/2012 4:36:04 PM
''The universe is not ordered.''.........quoted from above.

I didn't know that.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 167
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/4/2012 4:42:17 PM
the universe from start to where ever, is a process that we are catching glimpses of.

each of us can, if we want, make up our own mind as to what triggered that.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 168
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/4/2012 4:50:12 PM

the universe from start to where ever, is a process that we are catching glimpses of.

each of us can, if we want, make up our own mind as to what triggered that.

Let me fix that for you -

'the universe from start to where ever, is a process that we are catching glimpses of.
each of us can, if we ignore facts and abandon rationality, make up our own mind as to what triggered that.'

There, now it's ^^^ accurate.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 169
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/4/2012 4:59:31 PM
'the universe from start to where ever, is a process that we are catching glimpses of.
each of us can, if we ignore facts and abandon rationality, make up our own mind as to what triggered that.'

In the end, cheat, we all make up our own minds.

we can not [but will try to] in the end say, well, he said this, or they said that, you are on your own.

so I repeat, we ALL make up our OWN minds.

and the process [universe] does not at all rule out the creator.

everyone owns their own decision, regardless of the changing future information and discoveries.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 171
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/4/2012 7:01:35 PM

In the end, cheat, we all make up our own minds.

we can not [but will try to] in the end say, well, he said this, or they said that, you are on your own.

so I repeat, we ALL make up our OWN minds.

Certainly, I didn't say otherwise. All I pointed out was that some base the decision making process on known facts and observed reality while others rely on superstition, magical fantasies, and generally irrational 'beliefs'.

For instance...


the universe is highly ordered there are many physical laws while it may be possible to make matter by magic. It is not possible to create stars that dont run out of matter and a universe with galaxies that don't collide. and that was good enough for Gods purposes since he was not proposing to intervene in the universe anyway.
that it is a property of matter that it is impossible to be created has never been proven it is not science your making a wild and false claim and it has been demonstrated that it cannot be proven by any physical, public test to have been here for eternity test where the endless video tape to prove it.
The way it looks now it may be possible to court and demonstrate that a supernatural start to the universe is as if not more scientific than a natural start given that scientists cannot demonstrate that matter was here or where it came from with out reference to ideas that they cannot scientificly demonstrate and the argument can be advanced that it is harmful to society to belive in them until they can.


This post is not only crazily detached from reality, it's self contradictory.

eg;
the universe is highly ordered there are many physical laws while it may be possible to make matter by magic.

Has this ever been observed? Are there any precedents for 'making' anything at all "by magic"? Is the idea of 'making' things "by magic" a rational or scientific concept?


It is not possible to create stars that dont run out of matter and a universe with galaxies that don't collide. and that was good enough for Gods purposes since he was not proposing to intervene in the universe anyway.

Not only do you presuppose a god, you assume to know what he/she/it had in mind for he/she/its 'creation'. Are you a psychic specialising in reading the minds of invisible supernatural beings?


that it is a property of matter that it is impossible to be created has never been proven it is not science your making a wild and false claim and it has been demonstrated that it cannot be proven by any physical, public test to have been here for eternity test where the endless video tape to prove it.

Garbled nonsense.


The way it looks now it may be possible to court and demonstrate that a supernatural start to the universe is as if not more scientific than a natural start given that scientists cannot demonstrate that matter was here or where it came from with out reference to ideas that they cannot scientificly demonstrate...

More garbled nonsense.


...and the argument can be advanced that it is harmful to society to belive in them until they can.

You apparently suggest this ^^^ to limit the influence of science and support your own alternative position, yet the reasoning in it, such as it is, explicitly contradicts and undermines the validity of your own 'magical' and supernatural claims and beliefs.
This should suggest to you that there's a flaw in your logic somewhere?
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 173
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/4/2012 9:43:20 PM

you call things nonsense that are not. they make sense, you do not. you don't want to admit your wrong. so you deny. and do not answer the arguements.


So far almost everyone that has responded to you has done so in a way that has tried to demonstrate to you that your thinking is the problem and not anything about infinite possibilities about what may or may not be true.

Through this entire conversation you have rejected every opinion that was not in agreement. You have rejected all attempts at logic and you have not once provided any form of factual reference based on 3rd party evidence.

Why would anyone accept your word for the truth? You have no qualifications, you have no supporting evidence and you have established nothing as far as credibility or critical thinking. So why would anyone admit they were wrong just because you say so?

The reality of the world is that we exist. There is not one single proof outside of our observable world that is true because of our existence. That is life. The non-existence of proof outside of our observable world does not give license to every hypothesis made up by any of the 7 billion conscience beings on the planet.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 175
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/5/2012 6:10:59 AM

you don't need proof... then you are just saying things.


That statement coming from you McCullough is oddly ironic, dontcha think!?
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 177
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/5/2012 7:55:48 AM

you call things nonsense that are not. they make sense, you do not. you don't want to admit your wrong. so you deny. and do not answer the arguements.

Not at all. I addressed specific problems in your reasoning in posts #181 and #189.
It's you who deny and do not answer the criticisms or questions.

To refresh your memory, here they are again -


it is you who are making me cite the reference over and over without answering it...

You haven't cited any references. At all.

Nothing to say to that ^^^ ?


well the universe is ordered and is moving, which indicate it had a start and was designed by intelligence.
This ^^^ is an unsupported assumption. You haven't addressed the problem in it as yet.

if it had always been here under physical law operating for infinity things would be different.
This ^^^ is just a guess. You haven't addressed in what way, on what basis, or how you know "things would be different".

so i'm pretty sure it was a God and if it was magic it was intelligent magic close enough to a god that ill just call it that.
This ^^^ is just a bizarre statement.
"i'm pretty sure it was a God"?
"Intelligent magic"? What rational or scientific principle does "intelligent magic" rest on? Do tell.

the universe is highly ordered there are many physical laws while it may be possible to make matter by magic.

"It may be possible to make matter by magic"? Really... well, ya learn something new everyday hey?
But say, has this ever been observed? Are there any precedents for 'making' anything at all "by magic"? Is the idea of 'making' things "by magic" a rational or scientific concept?

It is not possible to create stars that dont run out of matter and a universe with galaxies that don't collide. and that was good enough for Gods purposes since he was not proposing to intervene in the universe anyway.

Not only do you presuppose a god, you assume to know what he/she/it had in mind for he/she/its 'creation'. Are you a psychic specialising in reading the minds of invisible supernatural beings?
You must be since you not only prescribe what is or isn't "possible" for 'god' to 'create', you also announce what was in his/her/its mind during the alleged process.

The two paragraphs I labeled as garbled nonsense, were actually garbled nonsense. Here they are -
that it is a property of matter that it is impossible to be created has never been proven it is not science your making a wild and false claim and it has been demonstrated that it cannot be proven by any physical, public test to have been here for eternity test where the endless video tape to prove it.

The way it looks now it may be possible to court and demonstrate that a supernatural start to the universe is as if not more scientific than a natural start given that scientists cannot demonstrate that matter was here or where it came from with out reference to ideas that they cannot scientificly demonstrate...

And finally, you ignored this point too -
...and the argument can be advanced that it is harmful to society to belive in them until they can.
Which you seem to have suggested to limit the influence of science and support your own alternative position, yet the reasoning in it, such as it is, explicitly contradicts and undermines the validity of your own 'magical' and supernatural claims and beliefs.

If an argument that can't be supported is, in your words, "harmful to society to belive in them until they can", then explain how you know "things would be different" if the universe had a rational beginning.
Explain how if "the universe is ordered and is moving" that must, apparently necessarily, imply that "it had a start and was designed by intelligence".

Explain how "i'm pretty sure it was a God" escapes the "harmful to society" unsupported belief label.
Explain how you know this 'god' thing is the possessor of "intelligent magic" and produce the evidence to support this assertion. Because well... it's "harmful to society to belive in" stuff that can't be 'supported' hey?

Take your time.
 veevee
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 181
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/5/2012 4:15:55 PM
read profiles more often for interesting info guys
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