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 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 112
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the UniversePage 5 of 19    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19)

If god created the universe. WHO created god?


God is not something that is subject to being "created". That is why he (or it) is called God (I prefer the term 'cosmic creator')


And if nothing came from nothing why then can't the universe come from nothing??


because nothing from nothing always equals nothing (0 + 0 = 0); and since the universe is made of 'something' so it cannot come from nothing!

 Paul K
Joined: 3/10/2006
Msg: 113
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 7:53:35 PM
Hey complex

You asked:
"WHO created god?"

Most thiests will answer that with "God always was, he has no beginning and has no end." I prefer an answer that makes more sense.......... I don't know because it is beyond the level of comprehension of humans. Sort of like trying to teach my cat math........

That still leaves the question of where matter/energy originated.

Paul K
 Darkbutcomely
Joined: 4/20/2011
Msg: 114
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 8:33:48 PM
Why is it so hard to believe the universe started with a bang but BUT very acceptable to think that a being who has always been, created the universe?? This confuses me. Oh yea god has always been BUT the universe is too complex to not to have created by something. So if the universe is that complex how complex must be the being who created it and who created the being who created the universe??? AND who created the being who created the being who created the being who created the being who created the being who created the universe? God has always been requires faith. Without it you can not wrap your head around it. And the bible says you have to faith of a child.... So don't ask. Just go with it. Well I can't. I cant just go with it. I need these answers.
When my children asked questions I really did try to give them the best answers I could. Even if I had to dumb it down. But we aren't given any answers and told what I consider the dumbest down answer ever,,,,,, just believe, have faith.
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 115
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 8:45:55 PM

BUT god is made from nothing....


You will come to know whether or not this is the case, right at the moment that you breathe out your last breath; and then you better hope you guessed right!

 Darkbutcomely
Joined: 4/20/2011
Msg: 116
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 8:54:53 PM
You will come to know whether or not this is the case, right at the moment that you breathe out your last breath; and then you better hope you guessed right!


What if it isn't the god YOU believe in? What if it is the god of some long dead race of people the Christen killed??? THEN what??? I love how god's people never really ask what if or the question ?? Too scared?? Prefect love cast out fear BUT fear the lord thy god.
 Kohmelo
Joined: 9/20/2011
Msg: 117
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 8:57:02 PM


one problem with this veiw is the hypothetical make up of the universe as i see it if there is one big bang it is likely that there are others to infinity in infinite space all sharing the same physical laws, occams razor. while they may consist of roughly similar numbers of particles the spaces between them all vary and there are no repeats. if they were all expanding and contracting at different times the various bangs would have impinged on each other and all activity would have died down which itself implies a beginning to activity since eventually activity would have died down alternately all the infinte big bangs could have begun together since there was a beginning to either senario that God exists is certain


In the same case, there sould be an infinite number of gods creating an infinite number of universes all infringing upon each other (blah blah blah)

The differnce between big bang and god creation is a step

God -->universe
vs
universe

And to say man isn't capable of understanding where god came is a complete waste of the brain you claim god gave you.
Way to smack him in the face.
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 118
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 9:11:17 PM

What if it isn't the god YOU believe in?


News flash! If there is indeed a "God"; he(it) won't be anything like ANY human being can ever have possibly imagined through ANY type of 'holy' scripture! You will in accordance be judged(or valued) by your own belief system, which will either serve to indict you or will 'free' you!
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 119
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/1/2012 6:29:02 AM
saying" i don't know what it is. but i know it isn't God" is picking and choosing what you will believe and not scientific inquiry. and to say we just haven't figured it out yet can be a denial and avoidance of the fact that matter shouldn't be here at all. it should not exist. there is no reason. it requires an act of creation according to theories of science. that means there is a God. the alternate theory that it was always here cannot be falsified, cannot be tested, and so is out of the running. and the theory of continious and present creation of virtual particles has an explanation , two of them take your pick miracle of God or smaller particles forming larger ones which may then be seen by the instruements so God is doing just great.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 120
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/1/2012 6:42:44 AM

and to say we just haven't figured it out yet can be a denial and avoidance of the fact that matter shouldn't be here at all. it should not exist. there is no reason. it requires an act of creation according to theories of science. that means there is a God. the alternate theory that it was always here cannot be falsified, cannot be tested, and so is out of the running.


No, to say we haven't figured something out means we haven't figured something out. Which is why there is research.

No, that does not mean matter shouldn't exist. Again...we don't know. It's not a crime to admit there are holes in knowledge. They're not god-shaped.

No. That doesn't mean god(s). And, of course, I'm assuming you mean your preferred concept of god. God(s) is/are a separate proposition which, if you posit existence, the burden of proof is on you.

No, it's not an either/or for existence. Steady state is one theory. Big Bang actually hasn't several models but the evidence is strongly in the favour of the big bang.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 121
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/1/2012 6:59:50 AM
Again "you dont know but you know it's not God" your picking and choosing what you will believe. and that's not science. that's fooling yourself.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 122
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/1/2012 7:18:47 AM

Again "you dont know but you know it's not God" your picking and choosing what you will believe.


Again, you are blaring your ignorance of what the proposition of "atheism" truly is. There is no proof of god.


and that's not science. that's fooling yourself.


Not fooling myself at all. I'm not relying on speculation and wishful thinking to create an image of what I want reality to be. If you actually have EVIDENCE for your god, then present it.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 123
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/1/2012 7:37:56 AM
I am aware that you have a little disconnect that atheism can be separated from an explanation for the existance of the universe and reduced to a lack of belief in god but that is hiding things from yourself. the universe had a start and that means something had to start it. there are no series of endless starts. and particles cant evolve their capabilites there is no way. so that means there is an absurd explanation, God. I have repeated myself several times on why it is not science that the universe has always been here. and thats what atheist's need to prove in order for their lack of belief to be true. for it is indeed possible to have a lack of belief in things that are real. many romans did not belive that germs or bacteria or anything smaller than what the eye could see existed. which we now know is not true so your lack of belief could be misleading. God could still exist.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 124
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/1/2012 8:16:02 AM

God could still exist.


So could magic unicorns. Again...evidence!


I am aware that you have a little disconnect that atheism can be separated from an explanation for the existance of the universe and reduced to a lack of belief in god but that is hiding things from yourself.


Repeating the same assertions doesn't make them true. The two are separate questions. In order to unite them, you have to provide actual evidence for the existence of god(s) independent of the existence of the universe, provide a mechanism by which said god(s) created the universe and show evidence of that creation. None of which you have even attempted.

The argument you are attempting is an old one. And it has been thoroughly debunked. Moving on.


and particles cant evolve their capabilites there is no way. so that means there is an absurd explanation, God.


This is a nonsensical statement. What "particles" and what "capabilities" are you attempting to explain through "godidit?"


I have repeated myself several times on why it is not science that the universe has always been here.


Please quote the specific post where I said this was the case. As near as I can tell, this is your own personal strawman. And strawmen are fallacious.


and thats what atheist's need to prove in order for their lack of belief to be true. for it is indeed possible to have a lack of belief in things that are real. many romans did not belive that germs or bacteria or anything smaller than what the eye could see existed. which we now know is not true so your lack of belief could be misleading.


the burden of proof is not on those who make he statement that something likely doesn't exist. It's on those who make the affirmative statement that something does exist. Whether the Romans believed in germs is irrelevant to the discussion.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 125
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/1/2012 9:38:53 AM
stephen hawkings statement "because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing" is complete nonsense nothing in the staement demonstrates its truth its gobblygook."Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing why the universe exists why we exist". does not explain spontaneous creation so stepen hawking is really claiming that a miracle is the source of the universe. explaining spontainious creation it is the role or job of science to explain and this they can't. it could in fact be a miricle of God that they were witnessing they can't prove otherwise saying we came from spontanious creation does not explain spontanious creation which is what scientist have to do in order to prove it isn't supernatural.
so so stephen is spouting nonsense and in denial because he's to attached to how he wants thing to be and he's not honest. and really it just smaller particles bundleing up to form larger composite particle that then appear to be detected by the scientists instruments , that is the most likly explian ation the scientist have probably been very stupid.

like they have with the heisenburg principle you can break that by using two entangled particle and measure one in one location for speed and the other in another location at the same time because their linked due to entanglement the hesinburg principle is proven wrong.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 126
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/1/2012 10:32:03 AM
McCullough, you attempting to dispute Hawking is ridiculous! Now you're just embarrassing yourself!
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 127
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/1/2012 11:24:12 AM
i agree with Mccullough; Hawking has turned himself into a charlatan. Nobody even knows what the essence of gravity is, much less make such a ridiculous statement.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 128
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/1/2012 11:51:27 AM
I was unclear about how to get around the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle. It is not true.
You take ENTANGLE two particles and measure one for SPEED in one location and the other for DIRECTION in another: SIMULTANEOUSLY. Because they are linked by Entanglement, the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle does not hold true.
 Kohmelo
Joined: 9/20/2011
Msg: 129
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/1/2012 7:16:41 PM


I was unclear about how to get around the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle. It is not true.
You take ENTANGLE two particles and measure one for SPEED in one location and the other for DIRECTION in another: SIMULTANEOUSLY. Because they are linked by Entanglement, the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle does not hold true.

Whether that's true or not, it doesn't prove a god.
Nothing you have said does.
If you want to believe, have at it... but don't think you can convince anyone who is educated or has any capability to think rationally with your ill advised logic
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 130
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/1/2012 7:37:22 PM
@Coma


Stephen's statement isn't nonsense.


not only is it nonsense but it borders on the absurd. The world of physics (just like any other field of science) is FULL of crackpots. Unfortunately Hawking has condescended himself to this level just for the purpose of selling books and getting grants. Some years ago, Hawking posited that matter can somehow be lost within a black-hole. In the world of physics, this would have had dire implications. This was eventually debunked by physicist Leonard Suskind, who (for respect of what Hawking accomplished in his heyday) stopped short of calling him a crack-pot! To be fair to hawking, he is not the only. Many others have sold out. If you care to take a look at such an example in the link below, you will see what I mean!

http://www.rebelscience.org/Crackpots/notorious.htm


Everything we can't explain doesn't automatically lead to a supernatural conclusion.


You are right it doesn't but when it pertains to something that does not lend itself to empirical methods of explanation then you cannot rule out a 'supernatural cause' entirely


Would you say "disease is demon possession" if we didn't understand germs yet?


the discovery of the germ theory is something that is amenable to the scientific method. We do not know all that much about the human genome but via further scientific research we soon will. This is not the case with how the Universe was created. It won't lend itself to that type of understanding because all Mathematical/Physical principles are abolished at the level of the so-called singularity. So unless somebody first discovers a whole new branch of physics and math hitherto completely unknown to the human race, that can explain all that is; then we are not getting anywhere. We can be fully assured of it!


Why would any God create a universe and just let it take care of itself?


And why couldn't he? ^ This is an anthropocentrist statement; as though you think what God should(or shouldn't) do; ought to be based on your own world views or experiences!


We're clearly not designed.


I cannot prove to you that there is a God (or designer) so I won't, but that doesn't mean there can't be. If you can fully prove that we are "not designed" then show it to us; otherwise you are plainly talking out of your rear end!
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 131
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/1/2012 8:42:14 PM
I need explain neither the mechanism, nor provide the movie of it's creation, nor actual evidence of God's existance. I need only demonstrate the impossibility of the universe's existance without God creating it. After that it's on you. you are simply refusing to believe.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 132
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/1/2012 9:19:50 PM

I need only demonstrate the impossibility of the universe's existence without God creating it.


But you can't. The reason you can't is not because God doesn't exist. The reason you can't is because if there were a God and he created the universe he created what exists and it has to exist according to specific guidelines that support its existence.

Which BTW would also itself be a claim of multiple universes if you think about it.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 133
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/1/2012 9:57:17 PM

A human can conceptualize a better environment on a computer.


Hahaha. Funny analogy but not even close. Also, what is the engine behind natural selection? The constant improvement. Gradual. Highly specific. Allowing for symbiotic relationships.

Everything else in the universe decays but natural selection organizes.

My thought for the night...
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 134
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/1/2012 10:54:32 PM

Really? If you were designing a universe, you would purpose put a galaxy that supports life on a collision course with another one? Why would you do that? Would you make most of the planets incapable of supporting life? If you can design whatever you want, you could make each planet like paradise. There are a lot of species that aren't improving. Some are extinct and some have stopped evolving.


You’re listing magical unreal things. Unreal things can't exist. Why would you design a car that has a gas tank that blows up? Why would you design a computer system that is susceptible to viruses? Why would you create a legal system that requires that someone be harmed before any act of protection can occur? All those things happened because that’s the way it goes. We design in straight lines. Nature doesn't.

My question still stands though. What is the engine behind natural selection? How is it the only natural thing that continually improves? The only other thing that I am aware of in nature that does this is us. Stars don't. Stars are decaying engines of matter. Cosmic engines. Can you associate natural selection to a Galaxy? Not sure. They do form and over time organize and improve for their environment but only to the point that decay will permit. I hardly think it would make sense that Galaxy's change to suit their environment although they are definitely shaped by it. Is that spiral the best possible formation for a Galaxy to create the best possible environment to allow at least for some brief period of time the right environment to allow for life to thrive.

It is hard to not associate some form personification to it. When you break it down with forces and chemicals and particles you break down the components but that only describes the engines. If you break down a glass of milk into its components it stops being milk also.

And Yes. I do not believe a person sitting at a computer could design a better functioning universe. You have to allow the bad things also. It isn't real if you don't.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 135
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/1/2012 11:43:26 PM
:)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20264620/?GT1=10252

"These complex, self-organized plasma structures exhibit all the necessary properties to qualify them as candidates for inorganic living matter," said study team member V.N. Tsytovich of the Russian Academy of Science


I just randomly found that on google. Didn't find much but it getting spammed all over the internet.

The point is that I wouldn't be so quick to assume the universe is without its own mechanisms to say that natural selection is only relevant to living organisms.
 Oceanside77
Joined: 4/20/2009
Msg: 136
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/2/2012 12:27:02 AM
Quote: My question: For those creationists out there, do ideas in science such as these at all undercut or shake your belief in a god, personal or otherwise? (Honesty would be much appreciated.)

No, there is no reason for such things to undercut someone's religion or beliefs. Science and Religion are not in competition with each other. Both play an important part in life. It is only dualistic, limited views that implant wedges of seperation between things and cause so much stupidity...
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