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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe      Home login  
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 johnemanuel
Joined: 7/22/2007
Msg: 103
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the UniversePage 5 of 19    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19)
The point is that there is an experience beyond which people who do not believe call religion and that is a system of things man has manufactured which is totally based on rules and regulations outside the scope of science and in most of the cases you mention are responsible for the sins of the " church " however well intentioned the whole thing started out but look to your own nature and consider the miracle of your children and see if that unconditional love you have for them is something that is quantifiable or explainable within the parlayance of quantum physics.....
 Paul K
Joined: 3/10/2006
Msg: 104
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 11/27/2010 1:19:37 PM
I would be a lot more impressed with Hawkings statements if he only had the common sense to post on this thread........

until then............. oh well.

Paul K
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 105
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 8:19:49 AM
t o be con vicing atheist have to explain how the universe started and they cant do that you cant just say things rubbed and the universe appeared or a 2 -d hit a1-d and it appeared or its a continuous wave you have to prove those things are real and then you have to show where those things come from so its just a shell game and science is a definition of a process and not the definition of an outcome and covers many feilds and therefore can include the discovery of God. atheist have no time machine they can not prove that matter has always been here even if they did they could not go back eternally so thats not science and those virtual particle that just appear while that could always be a miricle of God that you were witnessing or those could be composite particle made of even smaller particle that were bundling up forming onelarge enough for the insturments to detect that's a more scientifc explaination than they are just appearing. so we are left atheist cant prove by science their contentions and a creation wins by default though it was at least 14 billion years ago and is not the god of the bible.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 106
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 8:31:04 AM

t o be con vicing atheist have to explain how the universe started


Um....no they don't. You clearly have no understanding of what atheism is. Here. Let me help you with that.


a·the·ism   [ey-thee-iz-uhm] noun
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2.disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.


It's not a cosmological question. It's not a question of origins.

I don't believe in a god(s) and no theist has ever given me good enough reason to accept the notion that one or more exists. The things you cite as "problems" aren't problems. They're simply fields of ongoing research.

Of course, to scientists it's usually "I don't know, therefore more research." To theists like yourself, it's "I don't know, therefore god." It's really quite lazy and it's not how you are here now, able to type your rambling prose on a computer.


atheist have no time machine


Neither do theists and they cannot go back in time to observe divine creation or see god snapping his fingers and making everything pop into existence.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 107
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 9:05:43 AM
it may be that atheism is a disbelif or lack of belief in the Gods in which case it is also a denial of reality as there is no other explanation for the existanse of the universe. there is no further research that can be done. all the result are in. there is no other explanation than divine creation. to claim that further research needs to be done is denial. a start to the universe although not directly observable like so many things in science is predictable. if physical law had operated for eternity matter would be uniformly distributed in the universe and unmoving, infinitely ordered and it would have never and there could never be any change. and it is beginning tto look as if people like leonard krause know this and are out to decieve people delibrately now while the god of the bible may not exist, there is a God and some people don't want other people to know or belive
 Paul K
Joined: 3/10/2006
Msg: 109
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 11:23:23 AM
The latest on Hawking is that he is a regular at a "sex club" in So Cal....................

I guess certain universes still expand...............

:) :) :) :)

Paul K

PS

Hey Coma...... here is the eternal question......... where did the "stuff" that exploded in the big bang come from?
 ProcolHarem
Joined: 8/29/2008
Msg: 110
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 12:57:53 PM
there is a God and some people don't want other people to know or belive

You made the claim, now show proof.


I guess when proof can be shown that there is no God, the other side will no longer need to show proof that there IS.

One of those things where neither side can actually prove their point huh?
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 111
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 6:21:23 PM
It is not nessacary to show where God came from in order to demon strate that he indeed made the universe no matter how much one might wish to knowa nd many might refuse to belive unless their curiosity were satisfied but there is no answer to that question inded God himself does not know and it's mystery is nessacary for our our kind of intelligence (for god and we share the same type of intelligence other wise he would not recognise us as smart) so we arenever, never going to know. never, never going to know where God came from. not even God who has a limited intelligence of about ten thousand.
as to your inability to imagine what physical laws operating for eternity would do . it is not an alternate senario in competition with the big bang. rather it is an imagination of a universe that had no start. for a universe with out a God can have no start. it is chicanary to say there can be an endless series of starts that have no start. it is possible to imagine but one can imagine a great many thing that are not true. and a universe without a start can never change. while scientists have ben good about demonstrating the the existence they have not been good about explaining how it got to be there or why it exploded when it did in eternity. and where it got its momentum and science is a definition ofa process not an out come and it applies to many feilds and it isnt the same thing as proclaiming the bible as the word of god and that it should be taken literally and they have been a little prejudiced.
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 112
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 6:27:54 PM

if physical law had operated for eternity matter would be uniformly distributed in the universe and unmoving, infinitely ordered and it would have never and there could never be any change.


I tend to agree, but then there are those who might say that the the Universe was always there except that is goes through phases of expansion and contraction like an accordion . But if that were true, what would be the point of this type of see-saw.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 113
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 7:27:51 PM
one problem with this veiw is the hypothetical make up of the universe as i see it if there is one big bang it is likely that there are others to infinity in infinite space all sharing the same physical laws, occams razor. while they may consist of roughly similar numbers of particles the spaces between them all vary and there are no repeats. if they were all expanding and contracting at different times the various bangs would have impinged on each other and all activity would have died down which itself implies a beginning to activity since eventually activity would have died down alternately all the infinte big bangs could have begun together since there was a beginning to either senario that God exists is certain
 Darkbutcomely
Joined: 4/20/2011
Msg: 114
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 7:40:37 PM
If god created the universe. WHO created god? And if nothing came from nothing why then can't the universe come from nothing??
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 115
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 7:51:52 PM

If god created the universe. WHO created god?


God is not something that is subject to being "created". That is why he (or it) is called God (I prefer the term 'cosmic creator')


And if nothing came from nothing why then can't the universe come from nothing??


because nothing from nothing always equals nothing (0 + 0 = 0); and since the universe is made of 'something' so it cannot come from nothing!

 Paul K
Joined: 3/10/2006
Msg: 116
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 7:53:35 PM
Hey complex

You asked:
"WHO created god?"

Most thiests will answer that with "God always was, he has no beginning and has no end." I prefer an answer that makes more sense.......... I don't know because it is beyond the level of comprehension of humans. Sort of like trying to teach my cat math........

That still leaves the question of where matter/energy originated.

Paul K
 Darkbutcomely
Joined: 4/20/2011
Msg: 117
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 8:33:48 PM
Why is it so hard to believe the universe started with a bang but BUT very acceptable to think that a being who has always been, created the universe?? This confuses me. Oh yea god has always been BUT the universe is too complex to not to have created by something. So if the universe is that complex how complex must be the being who created it and who created the being who created the universe??? AND who created the being who created the being who created the being who created the being who created the being who created the universe? God has always been requires faith. Without it you can not wrap your head around it. And the bible says you have to faith of a child.... So don't ask. Just go with it. Well I can't. I cant just go with it. I need these answers.
When my children asked questions I really did try to give them the best answers I could. Even if I had to dumb it down. But we aren't given any answers and told what I consider the dumbest down answer ever,,,,,, just believe, have faith.
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 118
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 8:45:55 PM

BUT god is made from nothing....


You will come to know whether or not this is the case, right at the moment that you breathe out your last breath; and then you better hope you guessed right!

 Darkbutcomely
Joined: 4/20/2011
Msg: 119
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 8:54:53 PM
You will come to know whether or not this is the case, right at the moment that you breathe out your last breath; and then you better hope you guessed right!


What if it isn't the god YOU believe in? What if it is the god of some long dead race of people the Christen killed??? THEN what??? I love how god's people never really ask what if or the question ?? Too scared?? Prefect love cast out fear BUT fear the lord thy god.
 Kohmelo
Joined: 9/20/2011
Msg: 120
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 8:57:02 PM


one problem with this veiw is the hypothetical make up of the universe as i see it if there is one big bang it is likely that there are others to infinity in infinite space all sharing the same physical laws, occams razor. while they may consist of roughly similar numbers of particles the spaces between them all vary and there are no repeats. if they were all expanding and contracting at different times the various bangs would have impinged on each other and all activity would have died down which itself implies a beginning to activity since eventually activity would have died down alternately all the infinte big bangs could have begun together since there was a beginning to either senario that God exists is certain


In the same case, there sould be an infinite number of gods creating an infinite number of universes all infringing upon each other (blah blah blah)

The differnce between big bang and god creation is a step

God -->universe
vs
universe

And to say man isn't capable of understanding where god came is a complete waste of the brain you claim god gave you.
Way to smack him in the face.
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 121
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 2/29/2012 9:11:17 PM

What if it isn't the god YOU believe in?


News flash! If there is indeed a "God"; he(it) won't be anything like ANY human being can ever have possibly imagined through ANY type of 'holy' scripture! You will in accordance be judged(or valued) by your own belief system, which will either serve to indict you or will 'free' you!
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 123
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/1/2012 6:29:02 AM
saying" i don't know what it is. but i know it isn't God" is picking and choosing what you will believe and not scientific inquiry. and to say we just haven't figured it out yet can be a denial and avoidance of the fact that matter shouldn't be here at all. it should not exist. there is no reason. it requires an act of creation according to theories of science. that means there is a God. the alternate theory that it was always here cannot be falsified, cannot be tested, and so is out of the running. and the theory of continious and present creation of virtual particles has an explanation , two of them take your pick miracle of God or smaller particles forming larger ones which may then be seen by the instruements so God is doing just great.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 124
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/1/2012 6:42:44 AM

and to say we just haven't figured it out yet can be a denial and avoidance of the fact that matter shouldn't be here at all. it should not exist. there is no reason. it requires an act of creation according to theories of science. that means there is a God. the alternate theory that it was always here cannot be falsified, cannot be tested, and so is out of the running.


No, to say we haven't figured something out means we haven't figured something out. Which is why there is research.

No, that does not mean matter shouldn't exist. Again...we don't know. It's not a crime to admit there are holes in knowledge. They're not god-shaped.

No. That doesn't mean god(s). And, of course, I'm assuming you mean your preferred concept of god. God(s) is/are a separate proposition which, if you posit existence, the burden of proof is on you.

No, it's not an either/or for existence. Steady state is one theory. Big Bang actually hasn't several models but the evidence is strongly in the favour of the big bang.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 125
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/1/2012 6:59:50 AM
Again "you dont know but you know it's not God" your picking and choosing what you will believe. and that's not science. that's fooling yourself.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 126
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/1/2012 7:18:47 AM

Again "you dont know but you know it's not God" your picking and choosing what you will believe.


Again, you are blaring your ignorance of what the proposition of "atheism" truly is. There is no proof of god.


and that's not science. that's fooling yourself.


Not fooling myself at all. I'm not relying on speculation and wishful thinking to create an image of what I want reality to be. If you actually have EVIDENCE for your god, then present it.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 128
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/1/2012 7:37:56 AM
I am aware that you have a little disconnect that atheism can be separated from an explanation for the existance of the universe and reduced to a lack of belief in god but that is hiding things from yourself. the universe had a start and that means something had to start it. there are no series of endless starts. and particles cant evolve their capabilites there is no way. so that means there is an absurd explanation, God. I have repeated myself several times on why it is not science that the universe has always been here. and thats what atheist's need to prove in order for their lack of belief to be true. for it is indeed possible to have a lack of belief in things that are real. many romans did not belive that germs or bacteria or anything smaller than what the eye could see existed. which we now know is not true so your lack of belief could be misleading. God could still exist.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 129
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/1/2012 8:16:02 AM

God could still exist.


So could magic unicorns. Again...evidence!


I am aware that you have a little disconnect that atheism can be separated from an explanation for the existance of the universe and reduced to a lack of belief in god but that is hiding things from yourself.


Repeating the same assertions doesn't make them true. The two are separate questions. In order to unite them, you have to provide actual evidence for the existence of god(s) independent of the existence of the universe, provide a mechanism by which said god(s) created the universe and show evidence of that creation. None of which you have even attempted.

The argument you are attempting is an old one. And it has been thoroughly debunked. Moving on.


and particles cant evolve their capabilites there is no way. so that means there is an absurd explanation, God.


This is a nonsensical statement. What "particles" and what "capabilities" are you attempting to explain through "godidit?"


I have repeated myself several times on why it is not science that the universe has always been here.


Please quote the specific post where I said this was the case. As near as I can tell, this is your own personal strawman. And strawmen are fallacious.


and thats what atheist's need to prove in order for their lack of belief to be true. for it is indeed possible to have a lack of belief in things that are real. many romans did not belive that germs or bacteria or anything smaller than what the eye could see existed. which we now know is not true so your lack of belief could be misleading.


the burden of proof is not on those who make he statement that something likely doesn't exist. It's on those who make the affirmative statement that something does exist. Whether the Romans believed in germs is irrelevant to the discussion.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 131
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/1/2012 9:38:53 AM
stephen hawkings statement "because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing" is complete nonsense nothing in the staement demonstrates its truth its gobblygook."Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing why the universe exists why we exist". does not explain spontaneous creation so stepen hawking is really claiming that a miracle is the source of the universe. explaining spontainious creation it is the role or job of science to explain and this they can't. it could in fact be a miricle of God that they were witnessing they can't prove otherwise saying we came from spontanious creation does not explain spontanious creation which is what scientist have to do in order to prove it isn't supernatural.
so so stephen is spouting nonsense and in denial because he's to attached to how he wants thing to be and he's not honest. and really it just smaller particles bundleing up to form larger composite particle that then appear to be detected by the scientists instruments , that is the most likly explian ation the scientist have probably been very stupid.

like they have with the heisenburg principle you can break that by using two entangled particle and measure one in one location for speed and the other in another location at the same time because their linked due to entanglement the hesinburg principle is proven wrong.
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