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 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 190
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the UniversePage 8 of 19    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19)
nothing wrong with it. They have no scientific proof of their position that the appearance of matter was a natural event because it remains unexplained. They need to explain how it occured in naturalistic terms not just note that it did until they do a supernatural explaination remains viable. Science is explainitory not just descriptive.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 191
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/7/2012 6:00:32 PM

in some cases, Science is no longer searching. they are claiming that some thing came from nothing without explaination or proof.

On the contrary...
http://lhc.web.cern.ch/lhc/
http://public.web.cern.ch/public/en/LHC/LHC-en.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider

Contrast the efforts of science ^^^ with that of the advocates for invisible wizards - who all rely solely on personal anecdotes and ancient books.


and nonsensical and fairy tale are unsavory labels not proofs that it did not happen that way, until science finishes its search, they are in the running.

That ^^^ would be all religious fairytales of course, since they all rest on the same evidential foundation.
Which implies that every single crackpot hypothesis dreamed up by every single deranged stone-age person terrified of the natural world is 'valid' by your reasoning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec_mythology
etc etc...
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 192
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/7/2012 6:42:34 PM
"for all we know" is not a scientific explaination and there is no way of testing it. so there is no proof. to quote you,"there is no such thing as a scientific explaination without proof"
and Order in the universe is a sign of intelligence. that all particle have momentum. not a single one does not. that it is possible for life to exist when so many permutations involving changes of natural law would make life impossible.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 193
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/7/2012 8:15:11 PM
It's not written in the stars, that there has to be a natural explaination for everything. That was made up by people. It still hasn't been proven, although it's been assumed by a lot of people.
 Samhein
Joined: 7/20/2010
Msg: 194
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/7/2012 11:31:41 PM
It's not written in the stars, that there has to be a natural explaination for everything. That was made up by people. It still hasn't been proven, although it's been assumed by a lot of people.

Cling to your foolish, and wrong, superstition all you like. People have been trying to educate you this entire thread, and it's obvious you're in desperate need.

The world will pass you right on by regardless of whether you learn or not, and won't care when you drop off of it.

Thank you, Darwinism.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 195
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/8/2012 12:04:57 AM
that the order in the universe is arbitrary has not been determined by Science. the fact that physical laws are such that they allow life to exist amidst so many possibilities of universes with physical laws that would not, combined with the fact that matter exists at all with no apparent natural explaination suggest a supernatural one.
 Samhein
Joined: 7/20/2010
Msg: 196
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/8/2012 12:30:32 AM
How do you define 'arbitrary'?

If every element in a system has a specific set of properties, mix them all together and things will settle out based on the interactions of all those properties.

There is a totally natural explanation, and you denying it five thousand times, won't change it.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 197
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/8/2012 8:52:30 AM
i am not operating under the aussumption that everything needs a beginning. you are assuming that it has always been here. it has not been experimentailly verified and cannot be. there is no place proven for it to have come from, no process explained by it it could have appeared. the burden of explaination falls on those that would say it's appearance was a natural event. while you may search, a magical origin appears likely and scientist's that say something came from nothing are in effect saying magic did it, their just not saying God.
 Samhein
Joined: 7/20/2010
Msg: 198
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/8/2012 8:56:57 AM
Some folks are just hopeless cases.
 null_locus_accede
Joined: 6/25/2011
Msg: 200
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/8/2012 9:25:18 AM
Is all just a competition to nog the egg.
And in the 6 seconds it takes to figure out what that even means.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkJqKOb0ZhY

 Samhein
Joined: 7/20/2010
Msg: 201
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/8/2012 9:41:09 AM


You can read all about the success of this heuristic in a massive, extended case study referred to as 'the history of science'.

I simply must applaud all of your post.

Mc = owned.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 202
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/8/2012 10:03:30 AM
Well kardinal sense you ask. I tend to think of God as formed of uncreated particles very small much smaller by far than the smallest created particles but still physical they just do not interact.
They exceed the created particles by by some vast quantity being infinite as the created particle are but by some vaster quantity but limited in number when considered in number in relation to each created particle.
Thus there are limit to Gods knowledge and memory.
His memory does not extend infinitely backwards and he forgets and he does not know the exact infinite future
i do not believe he works miracles as his intrusions would inevitable work greater evil than good.
and because of his limited intelligence he could not correct for the evil nor dispense them fairly.
while i believe there are an infinite number if big bang in the universe irregularily spaced and therefore non- repeating, all sharing the same physical law, ocaams razor.
So there are a limited number of things to think about putting a further limit on his intelligence.
Which I like to say is about 10,000 IQ as an abitrary figure to have something to consider.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 203
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/8/2012 10:16:36 AM
and most if not all of what you claim to be a naturalistic models grounded known physics. are pseudo scientific fantasies and the only thing they have going for them is they don't use the word God. they don't have a single shred of evidence. just a lot of endless speculation.
 Samhein
Joined: 7/20/2010
Msg: 204
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/8/2012 10:51:13 AM
Infinites are equal

Somebody just likes using big concepts without knowing what they mean

I'll leave you to guess who it is
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 205
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/8/2012 11:36:49 AM
you can have a infinite number of particle form an infinite though lesser in number, number of planets in infinite space. there are greater and lesser infinities.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 206
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/8/2012 2:59:20 PM
or to put it another way you can have one (1) particle per cubic foot of Space or one million (1,000,000,000) particles per cubic foot filling infinite space. but the one million (1,000,000,000) particles per cubic foot number more than the one (1) per cubic foot although they are infinite too.
and although everything here may be logically ordered, how it got here may not be.
Play "The Logical Song" By Supertramp.
 Balsamica
Joined: 2/24/2012
Msg: 207
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/8/2012 8:45:16 PM
I didn't see anything in that article for or against a deity.

What exactly is his argument?
 Samhein
Joined: 7/20/2010
Msg: 209
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/9/2012 4:01:26 PM

you can have a infinite number of particle form an infinite though lesser in number, number of planets in infinite space. there are greater and lesser infinities.

No, you really can't.

Like I said. Somebody wants to talk about something they don't understand.

Infinities are equal. You don't have 'lesser' infinities.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 210
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/9/2012 4:14:46 PM
You like to deny things to get my goat. i proved you wrong twice.
 Paul K
Joined: 3/10/2006
Msg: 211
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/9/2012 4:26:02 PM
Hey Sam...........

You wrote:
"Infinities are equal. You don't have 'lesser' infinities."

The word "equal" means that there is the same number of, the same weight, the same........... you get the idea, right? Bottom line is that in order for "things" to be "equal", there has to be a way of determining the amount.........

How then can you say that "infinities" are equal, when infinity cannot be counted?

If you can count and give me a definite number for the amount of "X", then how can that be infinite? If you have a definite number, then it is not infinite.

Paul K
 musicfellow38
Joined: 2/17/2011
Msg: 212
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/9/2012 4:40:15 PM
and THIS is why "infinities" are just a concept and not an actual thing. Nothing is infinit but it makes for fun hypothetical discussions and argument enders such as "double dumb ass on you.... to infinity!" and then the other person goes and adds "1" and things get REALLY serious.
 Balsamica
Joined: 2/24/2012
Msg: 213
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/9/2012 7:41:04 PM
Will someone explain to me in a nutshell what Hawking's argument is?

Something about parallel universes?
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 214
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/9/2012 8:23:17 PM

Will someone explain to me in a nutshell what Hawking's argument is?

Try the first post in this hidden thread - http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts14166375.aspx
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 215
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/9/2012 9:23:09 PM
sean carrol said many things, that is made a lot of claims but didn't prove any of them.
he said that the origin of the universe was spontaneous . it could have been god that made it appear, he hasnt demonstrated that it wasn't.
and he doesn't have an explaination of why it did either and that what he needs to prove that the appearece was a natural event it not enough to say that it just happened which would be magic. to be naturalistic science you have to explain how it happens. when things appear out of thin air from nowhere that's magic. except apparently when your talking about all of matter then it's completely natural.
and then he talk about how in quantum physics if you wait long enough anything will happen. what exactly is this based on. will Santa show if i wait long enough on christmas eve,law of quantum physics? and if its if you wait long enough anything "that can happen" will happen don't you have to prove that matter just appears before you assume it will and then you have to explain why it isn't appearing now.
and that there are all these universes.
that wasn't part of Einsteins original thought. that's a retrofit,
and there's no physical, publicly demonstratible evidence that they exist.
so far there just a fantasy that lot of scientist talk about and many even believe in but there's no evidence and there all pretty much make-believe. Same for parallel universe and higher dimensions all about as real as Alien spacecraft buzzing the earth and wormholes.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 216
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/9/2012 10:02:37 PM

sean carrol said many things, that is made a lot of claims but didn't prove any of them.

You and he have much in common it seems, except that he is starting from the entirely rational idea that matter and the universe self-evidently exist.


he said that the origin of the universe was spontaneous . it could have been god that made it appear, he hasnt demonstrated that it wasn't.

He hasn't demonstrated that pixies riding unicorns didn't create it either. Is he a fool or what hey?


and he doesn't have an explaination of why it did either and that what he needs to prove that the appearece was a natural event it not enough to say that it just happened which would be magic.

Not quite, since it self-evidently exists now and seems to be governed by perfectly natural and deducible laws. The non-parsimonious explanation therefore is that some natural process will account for it being here.

'Magic' would be positing an invisible 'creator being' out of thin air when there's absolutely no evidence for such a thing, and, as far as we can tell, no need.
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