Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 Samhein
Joined: 7/20/2010
Msg: 176
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the UniversePage 8 of 19    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19)
Again, no I don't have to prove any God didn't do it, you have to prove a God DID do it, because you claim one did against all evidence. The evidence IS public, you just choose not to believe it, because it endangers your idea of God.

And, well, look at that, you really do believe in the God of the Bible, despite all your misdirections. Well done.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 177
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/3/2012 10:47:05 AM
and QED thats bogus too.
its based on Einstein and Einstien is based on the lie of galilian relativity.
aristotle was esentially correct the larger object because it has a larger gravitational field of its own pulls at the earth at the same time that the earth pulls it.
it pulls on the earth more strongly than the smaller object,
attracting the earth more closely to it. this causes it to accelerate towards the earth at a faster rate. that's reality.
galileo put out that things fell at the same rate and used object very close in weight so that they would hit within a micro second of each other and the differance would not be noticed. and then announced this misinformation as his discovery,
hoping to fool the enemies of his city and gain a technological advantage.
and it has worked very well fooling the world for six hundred years including thousands if not millions of scientists.
any way einstien based his theory on it and it'a lie so that blows einstein
and entaglement which works faster than light but probably not instantaneous because instruement cant measure that.
it can only be claimed.
and if you can't measure it, it's not science.
and infinite distance cant be proved either so it's probably of limited distance.
since there is no mechanism for infinite distance so it looks like faster than light speed has been proven.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 178
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/3/2012 11:17:34 AM
@samhein well there is the theory that the God of the bible made the universe about 6200 year ago to look likeit washere 14 billion and that he caused the flood and erased all the evidence i dont belive it, but you can believe i belive it, because you believe matter has always been here, somewhere, without any proof.
 Coma White
Joined: 4/11/2004
Msg: 179
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/3/2012 11:38:44 PM

@samhein well there is the theory that the God of the bible made the universe about 6200 year ago to look likeit washere 14 billion and that he caused the flood and erased all the evidence i dont belive it, but you can believe i belive it, because you believe matter has always been here, somewhere, without any proof.


The proof is the law of conservation of mass.

What you're saying is that everything has a cause. E.g. The big bang had a cause.
The cause of the big bang was God.
God doesn't need a cause because he always existed through magic.

Now the question:
Why can't matter and the universe exist by themselves through magic?
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 180
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/4/2012 1:58:50 AM
well the universe is ordered and is moving, which indicate it had a start and was designed by intelligence. if it had always been here under physical law operating for infinity things would be different. so i'm pretty sure it was a God and if it was magic it was intelligent magic close enough to a god that ill just call it that. and the law of the conservation of mass is just an observation. and doesn't prove mass was not created. Only that once it was created it was conserved.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 181
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/4/2012 3:29:05 AM

it is you who are making me cite the reference over and over without answering it...

You haven't cited any references. At all.
All you've done is make wild, illogical, and/or irrational claims.


your ideas are not correct. you can not demonstrate them. as i have demonstrated to you. and you have not rebutted.

You haven't 'demonstrated' anything other than a lack of understanding and a fondness for bizarre speculation.
There's nothing to 'rebut' since you don't even try to substantiate anything you're saying (for obvious reasons).

It would be easy, though time consuming, to point out the fallacies in the enormous number of baseless assumptions you make but there'd be no point since it's obvious you're impervious to reason.
As a 'for instance', your most recent post -


well the universe is ordered and is moving, which indicate it had a start and was designed by intelligence.
An unsupported assumption.

if it had always been here under physical law operating for infinity things would be different.
An unsupported guess.

so i'm pretty sure it was a God and if it was magic it was intelligent magic close enough to a god that ill just call it that.
A bizarre statement.

and the law of the conservation of mass is just an observation. and doesn't prove mass was not created. Only that once it was created it was conserved.
An irrelevancy.

Go back to basics. Your speculations took a wrong turn somewhere such that your opinions are now only semi-rational highly subjective guesses with little correspondence to observed reality.
 Samhein
Joined: 7/20/2010
Msg: 182
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/4/2012 6:27:16 AM
@samhein well there is the theory that the God of the bible made the universe about 6200 year ago to look likeit washere 14 billion and that he caused the flood and erased all the evidence i dont belive it, but you can believe i belive it, because you believe matter has always been here, somewhere, without any proof.

Really, where did I say that? Please quote me.

Oh, that's right, you just like making stuff up.

By the way, that thing about God making the universe there in your quote, is an hypothesis, not a theory. Theories come from evidence.
 Coma White
Joined: 4/11/2004
Msg: 183
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/4/2012 1:09:56 PM

well the universe is ordered and is moving, which indicate it had a start and was designed by intelligence. if it had always been here under physical law operating for infinity things would be different. so i'm pretty sure it was a God and if it was magic it was intelligent magic close enough to a god that ill just call it that. and the law of the conservation of mass is just an observation. and doesn't prove mass was not created. Only that once it was created it was conserved.


The universe is not ordered. It's literally just a bunch of stuff floating around. We're on a collision course with the Andromeda Galaxy. If God was making things with magic, wouldn't it make more sense to create stars that don't burn out and galaxies that don't collide? No matter what you're still back to square one. Either magic made God and then God created the universe, or magic created the universe without God.



and the law of the conservation of mass is just an observation. and doesn't prove mass was not created. Only that once it was created it was conserved.


No, that's not true at all. It's not just an observation, it's a property of matter. Matter can't be created - period. Not by magic, or any other means. Your mistake is in misdirecting people to think that it was created, when that is impossible.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 184
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/4/2012 4:36:04 PM
''The universe is not ordered.''.........quoted from above.

I didn't know that.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 185
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/4/2012 4:42:17 PM
the universe from start to where ever, is a process that we are catching glimpses of.

each of us can, if we want, make up our own mind as to what triggered that.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 186
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/4/2012 4:50:12 PM

the universe from start to where ever, is a process that we are catching glimpses of.

each of us can, if we want, make up our own mind as to what triggered that.

Let me fix that for you -

'the universe from start to where ever, is a process that we are catching glimpses of.
each of us can, if we ignore facts and abandon rationality, make up our own mind as to what triggered that.'

There, now it's ^^^ accurate.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 187
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/4/2012 4:59:31 PM
'the universe from start to where ever, is a process that we are catching glimpses of.
each of us can, if we ignore facts and abandon rationality, make up our own mind as to what triggered that.'

In the end, cheat, we all make up our own minds.

we can not [but will try to] in the end say, well, he said this, or they said that, you are on your own.

so I repeat, we ALL make up our OWN minds.

and the process [universe] does not at all rule out the creator.

everyone owns their own decision, regardless of the changing future information and discoveries.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 188
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/4/2012 5:17:25 PM
the universe is highly ordered there are many physical laws while it may be possible to make matter by magic. It is not possible to create stars that dont run out of matterand a universe with galaxies that don't collide. and that was good enough for Gods purposes since he was not proposing to intervene in the universe anyway.
that it is a property of matter that it is impossible to be created has never been proven it is not science your making a wild and false claim and it has been demonstrated that it cannot be proven by any physical, public test to have been here for eternity test where the endless video tape to prove it.
The way it looks now it may be possible to court and demonstrate that a supernatural start to the universe is as if not more scientific than a natural start given that scientists cannot demonstrate that matter was here or where it came from with out reference to ideas that they cannot scientificly demonstrate and the argument can be advanced that it is harmful to society to belive in them until they can.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 189
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/4/2012 7:01:35 PM

In the end, cheat, we all make up our own minds.

we can not [but will try to] in the end say, well, he said this, or they said that, you are on your own.

so I repeat, we ALL make up our OWN minds.

Certainly, I didn't say otherwise. All I pointed out was that some base the decision making process on known facts and observed reality while others rely on superstition, magical fantasies, and generally irrational 'beliefs'.

For instance...


the universe is highly ordered there are many physical laws while it may be possible to make matter by magic. It is not possible to create stars that dont run out of matter and a universe with galaxies that don't collide. and that was good enough for Gods purposes since he was not proposing to intervene in the universe anyway.
that it is a property of matter that it is impossible to be created has never been proven it is not science your making a wild and false claim and it has been demonstrated that it cannot be proven by any physical, public test to have been here for eternity test where the endless video tape to prove it.
The way it looks now it may be possible to court and demonstrate that a supernatural start to the universe is as if not more scientific than a natural start given that scientists cannot demonstrate that matter was here or where it came from with out reference to ideas that they cannot scientificly demonstrate and the argument can be advanced that it is harmful to society to belive in them until they can.


This post is not only crazily detached from reality, it's self contradictory.

eg;
the universe is highly ordered there are many physical laws while it may be possible to make matter by magic.

Has this ever been observed? Are there any precedents for 'making' anything at all "by magic"? Is the idea of 'making' things "by magic" a rational or scientific concept?


It is not possible to create stars that dont run out of matter and a universe with galaxies that don't collide. and that was good enough for Gods purposes since he was not proposing to intervene in the universe anyway.

Not only do you presuppose a god, you assume to know what he/she/it had in mind for he/she/its 'creation'. Are you a psychic specialising in reading the minds of invisible supernatural beings?


that it is a property of matter that it is impossible to be created has never been proven it is not science your making a wild and false claim and it has been demonstrated that it cannot be proven by any physical, public test to have been here for eternity test where the endless video tape to prove it.

Garbled nonsense.


The way it looks now it may be possible to court and demonstrate that a supernatural start to the universe is as if not more scientific than a natural start given that scientists cannot demonstrate that matter was here or where it came from with out reference to ideas that they cannot scientificly demonstrate...

More garbled nonsense.


...and the argument can be advanced that it is harmful to society to belive in them until they can.

You apparently suggest this ^^^ to limit the influence of science and support your own alternative position, yet the reasoning in it, such as it is, explicitly contradicts and undermines the validity of your own 'magical' and supernatural claims and beliefs.
This should suggest to you that there's a flaw in your logic somewhere?
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 190
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/4/2012 9:00:45 PM
you call things nonsense that are not. they make sense, you do not. you don't want to admit your wrong. so you deny. and do not answer the arguements.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 191
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/4/2012 9:43:20 PM

you call things nonsense that are not. they make sense, you do not. you don't want to admit your wrong. so you deny. and do not answer the arguements.


So far almost everyone that has responded to you has done so in a way that has tried to demonstrate to you that your thinking is the problem and not anything about infinite possibilities about what may or may not be true.

Through this entire conversation you have rejected every opinion that was not in agreement. You have rejected all attempts at logic and you have not once provided any form of factual reference based on 3rd party evidence.

Why would anyone accept your word for the truth? You have no qualifications, you have no supporting evidence and you have established nothing as far as credibility or critical thinking. So why would anyone admit they were wrong just because you say so?

The reality of the world is that we exist. There is not one single proof outside of our observable world that is true because of our existence. That is life. The non-existence of proof outside of our observable world does not give license to every hypothesis made up by any of the 7 billion conscience beings on the planet.
 Coma White
Joined: 4/11/2004
Msg: 192
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/4/2012 9:49:07 PM

the universe is highly ordered there are many physical laws while it may be possible to make matter by magic. It is not possible to create stars that dont run out of matterand a universe with galaxies that don't collide. and that was good enough for Gods purposes since he was not proposing to intervene in the universe anyway.


Phsyical laws do not indicate that there was a designer. It is possible to create stars that don't run out or galaxies that don't collside. If God created the universe through magic, he could easily create stars that don't burn out. You can do ANYTHING with magic.


that it is a property of matter that it is impossible to be created has never been proven it is not science your making a wild and false claim and it has been demonstrated that it cannot be proven by any physical, public test to have been here for eternity test where the endless video tape to prove it.


It's not a wild and false claim, that's just more rhetoric without anything to back it up. The law of conservation of mass comes from the continuity equation. You don't need proof that the mass and energy contained in the universe has always been here. Their properties speak for themselves. The supernatural stuff is just speculation. So far, there hasn't been any evidence to back it up. I would gladly believe it if there was evidence.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 193
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/5/2012 5:40:15 AM
you don't need proof... then you are just saying things. and its not science. and no. it's never been altogether true that you could do anything with magic and maybe you can't. your just insisting in that if God didn't create it like you think it should be or insist it should be done that he couldn't have done it.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 194
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/5/2012 6:10:59 AM

you don't need proof... then you are just saying things.


That statement coming from you McCullough is oddly ironic, dontcha think!?
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 195
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/5/2012 7:37:48 AM
scientists cannot prove any of the so called natural scenario's to explain the start of the universe even exist let alone did start the universe. science is the definition of a process not a outcome so it does not exclude the supernatural. matter cannot be proven to have always been here and if it had it would be in a different form. these things add up. they add up to God. when and if the scientists ever come up with anything then we can switch.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 196
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/5/2012 7:55:48 AM

you call things nonsense that are not. they make sense, you do not. you don't want to admit your wrong. so you deny. and do not answer the arguements.

Not at all. I addressed specific problems in your reasoning in posts #181 and #189.
It's you who deny and do not answer the criticisms or questions.

To refresh your memory, here they are again -


it is you who are making me cite the reference over and over without answering it...

You haven't cited any references. At all.

Nothing to say to that ^^^ ?


well the universe is ordered and is moving, which indicate it had a start and was designed by intelligence.
This ^^^ is an unsupported assumption. You haven't addressed the problem in it as yet.

if it had always been here under physical law operating for infinity things would be different.
This ^^^ is just a guess. You haven't addressed in what way, on what basis, or how you know "things would be different".

so i'm pretty sure it was a God and if it was magic it was intelligent magic close enough to a god that ill just call it that.
This ^^^ is just a bizarre statement.
"i'm pretty sure it was a God"?
"Intelligent magic"? What rational or scientific principle does "intelligent magic" rest on? Do tell.

the universe is highly ordered there are many physical laws while it may be possible to make matter by magic.

"It may be possible to make matter by magic"? Really... well, ya learn something new everyday hey?
But say, has this ever been observed? Are there any precedents for 'making' anything at all "by magic"? Is the idea of 'making' things "by magic" a rational or scientific concept?

It is not possible to create stars that dont run out of matter and a universe with galaxies that don't collide. and that was good enough for Gods purposes since he was not proposing to intervene in the universe anyway.

Not only do you presuppose a god, you assume to know what he/she/it had in mind for he/she/its 'creation'. Are you a psychic specialising in reading the minds of invisible supernatural beings?
You must be since you not only prescribe what is or isn't "possible" for 'god' to 'create', you also announce what was in his/her/its mind during the alleged process.

The two paragraphs I labeled as garbled nonsense, were actually garbled nonsense. Here they are -
that it is a property of matter that it is impossible to be created has never been proven it is not science your making a wild and false claim and it has been demonstrated that it cannot be proven by any physical, public test to have been here for eternity test where the endless video tape to prove it.

The way it looks now it may be possible to court and demonstrate that a supernatural start to the universe is as if not more scientific than a natural start given that scientists cannot demonstrate that matter was here or where it came from with out reference to ideas that they cannot scientificly demonstrate...

And finally, you ignored this point too -
...and the argument can be advanced that it is harmful to society to belive in them until they can.
Which you seem to have suggested to limit the influence of science and support your own alternative position, yet the reasoning in it, such as it is, explicitly contradicts and undermines the validity of your own 'magical' and supernatural claims and beliefs.

If an argument that can't be supported is, in your words, "harmful to society to belive in them until they can", then explain how you know "things would be different" if the universe had a rational beginning.
Explain how if "the universe is ordered and is moving" that must, apparently necessarily, imply that "it had a start and was designed by intelligence".

Explain how "i'm pretty sure it was a God" escapes the "harmful to society" unsupported belief label.
Explain how you know this 'god' thing is the possessor of "intelligent magic" and produce the evidence to support this assertion. Because well... it's "harmful to society to belive in" stuff that can't be 'supported' hey?

Take your time.
 Coma White
Joined: 4/11/2004
Msg: 197
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/5/2012 9:10:15 AM

scientists cannot prove any of the so called natural scenario's to explain the start of the universe even exist let alone did start the universe. science is the definition of a process not a outcome so it does not exclude the supernatural. matter cannot be proven to have always been here and if it had it would be in a different form. these things add up. they add up to God. when and if the scientists ever come up with anything then we can switch.


Like I said earlier, the scientific laws speak for themselves. Science does not include the supernatural because there is no reason to do so. You can't observe the supernatural. It has never been proven to exist. Why would we include fairly tales in science? Why would matter be in a different form if it has always been here? The matter and energy that exist in our universe have properties that demonstrate neither can be created. Saying things add up to God is simply nonsensical word play.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 198
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/5/2012 3:20:42 PM
there is no proof that matter has always been here other than your say so. and matter has no property that has ever been demonstrated to show"may not be magicly created" again other than your say so. you need to prove it had been here forever to show that it doesn't need to be. and that still wouldn't demonstrate that it couldn't. and even if you can't observe the supernatural you can observe its effects namely" whats been created" and science does allow for that.
 Coma White
Joined: 4/11/2004
Msg: 199
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/5/2012 3:43:40 PM

there is no proof that matter has always been here other than your say so. and matter has no property that has ever been demonstrated to show"may not be magicly created" again other than your say so. you need to prove it had been here forever to show that it doesn't need to be. and that still wouldn't demonstrate that it couldn't. and even if you can't observe the supernatural you can observe its effects namely" whats been created" and science does allow for that.


There is proof that matter has always existed. The properties of matter demonstrate that it can't be created. You're arguing against science and it's not working. I don't need to prove anything actually. The universe exists and there's no reason to think it was created through magic. You're making the claim that God created the universe, so you need to supply the evidence. Saying that the universe is evidence of of the supernatural is fuzzy logic. I can just as easily say that planets are proof that the Magical Shoe created the universe by kicking a soccer ball.

You can make any ridiculous claim you want, but without evidence, you're still exactly where you started - holding an empty sack. You're assuming that the universe is the creation of the supernatural. You don't actually have any evidence to back it up. You made the claim that we can observe the effects of the supernatural, now you need to supply evidence.
 Kardinal Offishall
Joined: 2/26/2010
Msg: 200
view profile
History
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/5/2012 3:55:05 PM
mccullough:



Let's impose some structure onto your footloose musings.


that it is a property of matter that it is impossible to be created has never been proven it is not science your making a wild and false claim and it has been demonstrated that it cannot be proven by any physical, public test to have been here for eternity test where the endless video tape to prove it.


First of all, the standard interpretation of the big bang would make it illicit to claim that "matter" has "been here for eternity." Speaking of "matter" as existing 'before' the big bang is unintelligible on this account.

Secondly, it is not uncommon to hear cosmologists who investigate these matters point out that the total energy of the universe is zero, since gravity 'balances the books' by canceling out the 'positive' energy.

Here's a quote from Alex Vilenkin discussing this point in the context of the inflationary period of the big bang (from his book 'Many Worlds in One', pp. 11-12):

"The dramatic increase in mass during inflation may at first appear to contradict one of the most fundamental laws of physics, the law of energy conservation. By Einstein's famous relation, E = mc2, energy is proportional to mass. (Here, E is energy, m is mass, and c is the speed of light.) So the energy of the inflating chunk must also have grown by a colossal factor, while energy conservation requires that it should remain constant. The paradox disappears if one remembers to include the contribution to the energy due to gravity. It has long been known that gravitational energy is always negative. This fact did not appear very important, but now it suddenly acquired a cosmic significance. As the positive energy of matter grows, it is balanced by the growing negative gravitational energy. The total energy remains constant, as demanded by the conservation law."

So, contrary to what you seem to be saying, there may not be anything to really explain in terms of the genesis of energy (or “mass,” in your words), since it appears to be zero.

Also, take quantum cosmology for illustrative purposes. Make no mistake: It is a very strange domain when set against our everyday folk intuitions of physics. If the origin of this universe/multiverse is quantum cosmological in nature, the truth is quite likely going to be strange and very counterintuitive.

You don't seem to realize how much your thinking on this topic is permeated with instinctual species-typical habits of thought; you continually frame the issue in agentic terms and workaday causation -- i.e., 'someone' must have set 'it' (the universe) in motion/'it's here', therefore it must have been 'created' by a more complex, minded entity, namely 'god'.

None of that follows in the slightest by necessity; and we have every reason now to be highly suspicious of this mode of thinking, given how well mapped out it is scientifically.

These ways of seeing and interpreting the world are adaptations that were put in us by nature; they are not 'theory-free' ways of viewing the world.

We (by dint of nature) imbue the world with these conceptual schemes, not vice versa. This is why it's vital to be self-aware of the natural inclinations we have to think in these ways, to see the world as such. In a very real sense, they are as natural to us as breathing and seeing.

(Even children ascribe intentional behavior to a pair of dots on a screen, if such a pair of dots is suitably programmed to display 'chasing' behavior. And as adults, though we know the dots aren't agents, we still can't help but interpret their motion at a basic level as being animate.)



The way it looks now it may be possible to court and demonstrate that a supernatural start to the universe is as if not more scientific than a natural start given that scientists cannot demonstrate that matter was here or where it came from with out reference to ideas that they cannot scientificly demonstrate


The "supernatural start" hypothesis is but one among many competing hypotheses in cosmology. Also, there are conceptual subtleties to the proposed naturalistic hypotheses that you aren't taking account of.

Your favored hypothesis -- viz., 'god done did it' -- makes an ontological posit no differently than all the other hypotheses.

If it is testable in principle, then so are the others. To think otherwise is to fall victim to your own cartoonish philosophy of science.

And as always, if theological cosmogony is the last remaining element propping up your faith, you are indeed setting yourself up for disappointment, for it is the barest of bare threads to cling to.

Ask yourself: How well does your theistic belief stack up with the rest of our scientific knowledge? Most likely yours is a very watered down deism.

In the words of Alan Guth, "It's often said that you cannot get something for nothing, but the universe may be the ultimate free lunch."
Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe