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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe      Home login  
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 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 201
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the UniversePage 9 of 19    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19)

their talking nonsense as many scientist's make a career of doing.


Except they're the ones doing the calculations and you've done...what!?
 Coma White
Joined: 4/11/2004
Msg: 202
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/6/2012 9:59:48 AM

if the energy of the universe were really zero, nothing would exist, so their talking nonsense as many scientist's make a career of doing.


I think you are misunderstanding the scientific theories that are being brought up. He's saying that there are equal amounts of opposing forces. In no way does that mean that nothing exists. I have a stove that makes things hot and I have a fridge that makes things cold. That means that neither one exists?

The bottom line is that you're claiming that God created the universe. When you make a claim, you need to back it up with evidence. So far, you haven't presented any evidence. You've just been pointing to things that haven't been completely figured out yet and saying "well, the only explanation is God." I'm afraid that doesn't count as evidence.
 Kardinal Offishall
Joined: 2/26/2010
Msg: 203
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/6/2012 7:17:30 PM
mccullough:



if the energy of the universe were really zero, nothing would exist,


Granted, it might seem profoundly odd to you that the total energy of the universe is zero, but that would just be an interesting psychological fact about you. Unfortunately, however, your idiosyncratic intuitions do not hold sway over the calculations derived in physics.

If you canvass various books written by cosmologists discussing mathematical models of the origins of the universe and inflation, inter alia, it's not uncommon to hear them use locutions along the lines of 'something from nothing' to refer to these above notions.



so their talking nonsense as many scientist's make a career of doing.


I think what you're trying to say here is that you cannot accept this apparent conclusion, because to do so would confound your own personal pet explanation, which you ostensibly cling to dearly.

Bottom line: Our intuitions are not the benchmark to which reality is to be appraised. Last century the famous biologist J.B.S Haldane once remarked that reality is "not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose."
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 204
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/7/2012 9:07:15 AM
while many supposed cosmologists may make marks on paper and discuss something from nothing. so far they have failed to physically and publicly demonstrate "something coming from nothing" to which there could be no other explaination. until then their talking nonsense.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 205
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/7/2012 9:13:21 AM

so far they have failed to physically and publicly demonstrate "something coming from nothing" to which there could be no other explaination.


And when have you applied the same standard of evidence to your own assertions? Expecting from others what you are not prepared to do yourself is hypocrisy.
 Coma White
Joined: 4/11/2004
Msg: 206
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/7/2012 9:32:12 AM

while many supposed cosmologists may make marks on paper and discuss something from nothing. so far they have failed to physically and publicly demonstrate "something coming from nothing" to which there could be no other explaination. until then their talking nonsense.


Science doesn't need to prove that something came from nothing. Science is about searching for answers, not making up fairly tales to explain things. The burden of proof is still upon you because you are making the claim that God created the universe. You are trying to distract others by pointing out the obvious - that science is actively exploring the origins of the universe, not handing out nonsensical answers.
 Coma White
Joined: 4/11/2004
Msg: 207
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/7/2012 9:32:32 AM
duplicate post.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 208
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/7/2012 12:48:51 PM
in some cases, Science is no longer searching. they are claiming that some thing came from nothing without explaination or proof.
and nonsensical and fairy tale are unsavory labels not proofs that it did not happen that way, until science finishes its search, they are in the running.
Science is about proving via experimentation and public demonstration.
so you need to improve your knowledge of what science is about.
naturalists and atheists do need to prove that something came from nothing scientificly to win the argument,that there is no need for a Creator, scientificaly
 veevee
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 209
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/7/2012 5:22:43 PM
naturalists and atheists do need to prove that something came from nothing scientificly to win the argument,that there is no need for a Creator, scientificaly

wrong wra wra wra wrong and pretty much... no, 100% wrong
I forgot to mention - you are WRONG.
You need to find other people with mental issues to argue with because you aren't listening, you are just being all cuckoo and spoiling threads. If you know clinically that you are nuts why are you trying to argue on the nuts bus expecting us to act nuts too, won't happen. Understand that your brain is broken, you can't argue worth a shit with sane folk. Over and over people have been patient with you and you just keep posting nonsense.
 Coma White
Joined: 4/11/2004
Msg: 210
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/7/2012 5:53:34 PM

in some cases, Science is no longer searching. they are claiming that some thing came from nothing without explaination or proof.
and nonsensical and fairy tale are unsavory labels not proofs that it did not happen that way, until science finishes its search, they are in the running.
Science is about proving via experimentation and public demonstration.
so you need to improve your knowledge of what science is about.
naturalists and atheists do need to prove that something came from nothing scientificly to win the argument,that there is no need for a Creator, scientificaly


Science is no longer searching? They're just building huge particle accelerators for the laughs? I can't say I've ever heard that one before.

Fairy tales actually aren't in the running because they haven't been proven. Science doesn't claim to know the answer. That's the difference.

No one needs to prove that something came from nothing. Science isn't claiming that something came from nothing. For all we know, everything always existed, and there was never "nothing". The burden of proof is upon you because you're claiming that God made everything with magic, and God came from magic.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 211
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/7/2012 5:54:10 PM
nothing wrong with it. They have no scientific proof of their position that the appearance of matter was a natural event because it remains unexplained. They need to explain how it occured in naturalistic terms not just note that it did until they do a supernatural explaination remains viable. Science is explainitory not just descriptive.
 Coma White
Joined: 4/11/2004
Msg: 212
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/7/2012 5:57:35 PM

nothing wrong with it. They have no scientific proof of their position that the appearance of matter was a natural event because it remains unexplained. They need to explain how it occured in naturalistic terms not just note that it did until they do a supernatural explaination remains viable. Science is explainitory not just descriptive.


No, the supernatural explanation is garbage and I'll tell you why. If you come up with an explanation for something, you need to show proof. If you can't, it's no longer an explanation, it's garbled nonsense. Science is investigating the nature of the universe and why things happened. There is no such thing as a scientific explanation without proof. You're probably thinking about a hypothesis.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 213
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/7/2012 6:00:32 PM

in some cases, Science is no longer searching. they are claiming that some thing came from nothing without explaination or proof.

On the contrary...
http://lhc.web.cern.ch/lhc/
http://public.web.cern.ch/public/en/LHC/LHC-en.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider

Contrast the efforts of science ^^^ with that of the advocates for invisible wizards - who all rely solely on personal anecdotes and ancient books.


and nonsensical and fairy tale are unsavory labels not proofs that it did not happen that way, until science finishes its search, they are in the running.

That ^^^ would be all religious fairytales of course, since they all rest on the same evidential foundation.
Which implies that every single crackpot hypothesis dreamed up by every single deranged stone-age person terrified of the natural world is 'valid' by your reasoning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec_mythology
etc etc...
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 214
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/7/2012 6:42:34 PM
"for all we know" is not a scientific explaination and there is no way of testing it. so there is no proof. to quote you,"there is no such thing as a scientific explaination without proof"
and Order in the universe is a sign of intelligence. that all particle have momentum. not a single one does not. that it is possible for life to exist when so many permutations involving changes of natural law would make life impossible.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 215
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/7/2012 8:15:11 PM
It's not written in the stars, that there has to be a natural explaination for everything. That was made up by people. It still hasn't been proven, although it's been assumed by a lot of people.
 Coma White
Joined: 4/11/2004
Msg: 216
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/7/2012 8:25:41 PM

"for all we know" is not a scientific explaination and there is no way of testing it. so there is no proof. to quote you,"there is no such thing as a scientific explaination without proof"
and Order in the universe is a sign of intelligence. that all particle have momentum. not a single one does not. that it is possible for life to exist when so many permutations involving changes of natural law would make life impossible.


I'm not claiming that science as any explanation about the origin of the universe, or that I know the answer. Science is dedicated to studying these things and seeking answers. The order you see in the universe is abitrary. No one has any idea what you're talking about when you say "order". We're on a collision course with the Andromeda Galaxy. That's order? The fact that life exists isn't solid proof of a supernatural being. So far, all you have is a made up explanation. I might as well say that I went back in time after finding a magic wand and created the universe from nothing. Like you said, science hasn't figured it out yet, so all other options are on the table.
 Samhein
Joined: 7/20/2010
Msg: 217
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/7/2012 11:31:41 PM
It's not written in the stars, that there has to be a natural explaination for everything. That was made up by people. It still hasn't been proven, although it's been assumed by a lot of people.

Cling to your foolish, and wrong, superstition all you like. People have been trying to educate you this entire thread, and it's obvious you're in desperate need.

The world will pass you right on by regardless of whether you learn or not, and won't care when you drop off of it.

Thank you, Darwinism.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 218
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/8/2012 12:04:57 AM
that the order in the universe is arbitrary has not been determined by Science. the fact that physical laws are such that they allow life to exist amidst so many possibilities of universes with physical laws that would not, combined with the fact that matter exists at all with no apparent natural explaination suggest a supernatural one.
 Samhein
Joined: 7/20/2010
Msg: 219
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/8/2012 12:30:32 AM
How do you define 'arbitrary'?

If every element in a system has a specific set of properties, mix them all together and things will settle out based on the interactions of all those properties.

There is a totally natural explanation, and you denying it five thousand times, won't change it.
 Coma White
Joined: 4/11/2004
Msg: 220
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/8/2012 7:19:07 AM

that the order in the universe is arbitrary has not been determined by Science. the fact that physical laws are such that they allow life to exist amidst so many possibilities of universes with physical laws that would not, combined with the fact that matter exists at all with no apparent natural explaination suggest a supernatural one.


You're operating under the assumuption that everything needs a beginning. Do you have proof that matter was created? That seems to contradict the properties of matter. The difference is that science is looking for answers, while others are closing the book and saying God did it as an explanation. If you can't see the difference between seeking the truth and a creation myth, it's going to be impossible to discuss this topic.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 221
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/8/2012 8:52:30 AM
i am not operating under the aussumption that everything needs a beginning. you are assuming that it has always been here. it has not been experimentailly verified and cannot be. there is no place proven for it to have come from, no process explained by it it could have appeared. the burden of explaination falls on those that would say it's appearance was a natural event. while you may search, a magical origin appears likely and scientist's that say something came from nothing are in effect saying magic did it, their just not saying God.
 Samhein
Joined: 7/20/2010
Msg: 222
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/8/2012 8:56:57 AM
Some folks are just hopeless cases.
 Kardinal Offishall
Joined: 2/26/2010
Msg: 223
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/8/2012 9:20:46 AM
mccullough:



while many supposed cosmologists may make marks on paper and discuss something from nothing. so far they have failed to physically and publicly demonstrate "something coming from nothing" to which there could be no other explaination. until then their talking nonsense.


I believe you may be missing the underlying points. The "marks on paper" are entrenched in the wider backdrop of contemporary physics, but specifically the two main pillars, namely quantum mechanics and relativity.

Also, the locution 'something from nothing' has a different meaning than the way in which you're construing it. You appear to be equivocating between two different notions.

On the one hand, you were discussing the origin of "matter," asserting that it must have come from somewhere, and that its only possible etiology was a deity of some sort.

On the other hand, you now are referring to "something coming from nothing" in a more general sense.

The two are not necessarily the same, and indeed we have good reason not to conflate them. The fact that our universe exists, even where the total energy appears to total to zero, does not entail that nothing exists 'explanatorily prior' to it (not to confused with 'temporally before', as the standard interpretation of big bang cosmology makes that notion unintelligible).

The key, again, is not to construe the common locution 'something from nothing' amongst cosmologists as meaning other than they intend it to mean.



It's not written in the stars, that there has to be a natural explaination for everything. That was made up by people. It still hasn't been proven, although it's been assumed by a lot of people.


It's called methodological naturalism; it's a heuristic that has proven itself in stunning fashion, and there has never been any reason to abandon it with respect to any phenomena so far.

You can read all about the success of this heuristic in a massive, extended case study referred to as 'the history of science'.



nothing wrong with it. They have no scientific proof of their position that the appearance of matter was a natural event because it remains unexplained.


Are you familiar with the basics of the inflationary paradigm in modern cosmology?



the fact that physical laws are such that they allow life to exist amidst so many possibilities of universes with physical laws that would not, combined with the fact that matter exists at all with no apparent natural explaination suggest a supernatural one.


This style of reasoning actually has a name: it's called an 'argument from ignorance', which can roughly be defined as 'we don't know with good certainty what explains y, therefore x', where x is some subjective belief based in little more than intuition.

Likewise, you're committing the same error here as you did with your "god as the origin of matter" assertion. You'll need to become acquainted with the various multiverse hypotheses in cosmology. Once again, these are naturalistic proposals, and to think that god is the only game in town is simply flatly wrong.



in some cases, Science is no longer searching. they are claiming that some thing came from nothing without explaination or proof.


The claim is that it is not requisite to invoke a deity to explain the origin of this universe, as in there are naturalistic models available which are grounded in known physics which could hypothetically explain what needs to be explained.

One key point here is that these models have a basis in known physics; your theistic hypothesis, on the other hand, has no basis in anything substantive, since diddly squat is known empirically about any gods.

Theists like yourself err mightily in thinking that the only hypothesis in town is god. The fatal error is in believing that there is some ineluctable necessary connection between a universe's existing and a god creating it. That in no way, shape, or form follows.

However, I do understand that you dearly wish that to be the case.

I invite you to talk about the properties of this god that you have in mind. I'm curious.
 null_locus_accede
Joined: 6/25/2011
Msg: 224
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/8/2012 9:25:18 AM
Is all just a competition to nog the egg.
And in the 6 seconds it takes to figure out what that even means.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkJqKOb0ZhY

 Samhein
Joined: 7/20/2010
Msg: 225
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/8/2012 9:41:09 AM


You can read all about the success of this heuristic in a massive, extended case study referred to as 'the history of science'.

I simply must applaud all of your post.

Mc = owned.
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