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 Balsamica
Joined: 2/24/2012
Msg: 217
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the UniversePage 9 of 19    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19)
That post goes to the Hawking article and doesnt tell me anything more than I didnt know.

Can anyone EXPLAIN it in plain English???????
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 218
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/10/2012 8:51:17 AM
@ lying cheat
well now your assuming quite a few things and all in your favor and that's not science. science is about experiment and public demonstration and you just can't.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 220
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/10/2012 1:24:11 PM
you have missed great deal of what i said and stuff i spelled out clearly in previous posts.
you may have 1 particle per cubic foot in infinite space numbering infinity.
you may also have 1,000,000,000 particles per square foot in infinite space numbering infinity.
but their relationship to each other is per square foot a million to one and limited.
so God would only be able to store a limited amount of information about each created particle, if his were physical because even if they were smaller he could only have so many before they prevented movement of the created particles.
and about the anything that can happen in the very next sentence i dealt with that by saying if it's any thing that can happen...
if it's that they have detected virtual particle spontaneously appearing then we go back to the spontaneous argument with this cavet.
it could be that these virtual particle are themselves made of smaller particle's that are to small to detect with the instruements or have been missed.
and that are bundling up to form composite particles.
in which case it's not spontaneous and your left with an explanation problem even more serious.
because now there's nothing spontaneous to even be naturalistic and of course if it appeared then you do have to explain why matter isn't appearing now as all other natural laws operate continiously.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 221
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/10/2012 2:15:42 PM
http://www.atlasoftheuniverse.com/universe.html

Does anyone have any idea if that is a legitimate perspective of the 'known universe'. The roundness of it doesn't bother me since it would be very strictly limited to the extent of what could be 'seen' from earth perspective. The part that bothers me is that from the 14b year perspective it is rather uniform. Nothing even remotely close to indicating an expansion where there should be a higher density / lower density pattern indicating a directional movement somewhere.

Taking into account that this perspective puts us in the center of the universe because we would have no way to know that we were to the left of anything... But shouldn't there be something indicating a directional travel since the universe is thought to be 'expanding'? We are not the center of the universe and even if expansion was totally uniform from our perspective we should see a hint of the expansion. Or am I totally off and looking at it wrong?
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 222
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/10/2012 3:05:38 PM
they claim the rate of expansion is increasing so they put have some sense of it somewhere and i have run across things that suggest the notion we are at the center is a bit of a misnomer. rather everything is slowly moving away from us or we are slowly moving away from every thing or a bit of both.
 Samhein
Joined: 7/20/2010
Msg: 223
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/11/2012 11:53:59 PM

Hey Sam...........
You wrote:
"Infinities are equal. You don't have 'lesser' infinities."
The word "equal" means that there is the same number of, the same weight, the same........... you get the idea, right? Bottom line is that in order for "things" to be "equal", there has to be a way of determining the amount.........
How then can you say that "infinities" are equal, when infinity cannot be counted?
If you can count and give me a definite number for the amount of "X", then how can that be infinite? If you have a definite number, then it is not infinite.
Paul K

Well, someone else hinted at the reasoning slightly after: it's just a concept. We cannot count nor number an infinity; it's a hypothetical. Therefore to say one is lesser of greater is just bollocks.

Much like Mc 'proving me wrong twice'
 Samhein
Joined: 7/20/2010
Msg: 224
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/11/2012 11:58:00 PM

http://www.atlasoftheuniverse.com/universe.html
Does anyone have any idea if that is a legitimate perspective of the 'known universe'. The roundness of it doesn't bother me since it would be very strictly limited to the extent of what could be 'seen' from earth perspective. The part that bothers me is that from the 14b year perspective it is rather uniform. Nothing even remotely close to indicating an expansion where there should be a higher density / lower density pattern indicating a directional movement somewhere.
Taking into account that this perspective puts us in the center of the universe because we would have no way to know that we were to the left of anything... But shouldn't there be something indicating a directional travel since the universe is thought to be 'expanding'? We are not the center of the universe and even if expansion was totally uniform from our perspective we should see a hint of the expansion. Or am I totally off and looking at it wrong?

Whoa, cool map.
Mm, no, there shouldn't be much of a high/low density to indicate, say, a glob moving away from a certain point, because the expansion is uniform in all directions, and the medium in which the matter is dispersed, is also likewise expanding.

It's turtles all the way down
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 225
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/12/2012 12:14:17 AM

Mm, no, there shouldn't be much of a high/low density to indicate, say, a glob moving away from a certain point, because the expansion is uniform in all directions, and the medium in which the matter is dispersed, is also likewise expanding.


Sorry, not grasping. I know the concept that big bang was a big inflation but I don't understand how that results in an even distribution with continuing expansion.

If we are moving away from other bodies that means the reverse direction we were closer and if you keep following that back that means things were closer together. If the 14billion years ago light was 14billion years ago age of universe than there should be some sign of density... Because we are not the center of the universe we should see a clear path… If we were the exact center we wouldn’t because everything would be moving away from us in a straight line. But we are not the center of the universe :)


Maybe we need a Family Guy style cutaway... Stewie, you got this?
 Samhein
Joined: 7/20/2010
Msg: 226
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/12/2012 12:51:52 AM
Yes! A good cutaway with a dancing chorus line would be perfect at this point.

OK, let me try and clarify. Speaking generally, back at the beginning shortly after Planck time, the energy that would become matter, was essentially spread everywhere there was a /where/ to be. To picture it, as space expanded, there was not an 'outer' area empty of energy expanding faster, no clear buffer zone. Thus, you would not really expect to see matter concentrated in a 'center', with an outer area empty.

From our single vantage point, we see empty areas of the inverse but that's simply because matter tends to clump; matter's own properties cause it to move away from uniform spread and cluster into galaxies, at this scale. The galactic clumping we view now is a process that came later, once there was matter to exert gravity upon itself. So when the Bang first happened, all space was filled by primordial energy. Billions of years later, it's rather less uniform than it was because of the phenomenon of mass, which was not possible at the beginning.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 227
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/12/2012 6:57:41 AM
although infinite particles may not be be numbered,
portions of them may be measured
and if there are more than one kind of infinite particle,
they may be measured relative to each other,
by their number per Volume of space in an infinite space.
thus there are greater and lesser infinities.

there is no rule that Samhein cannot be wrong and he is.
It has been proven twice.
 Samhein
Joined: 7/20/2010
Msg: 228
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/12/2012 7:04:14 AM
lol, it hasn't been proven at all. Its just rambling displaying a lack of knowledge of mathematics, astrophysics, and sundry other subjects, which you insist is fact, and since you keep inserting the word 'infinite', you keep shooting yourself in the foot.

There is no 'rule' I can't be proven wrong; you just need to show competence on the subject matter. You've failed, uniformly. I never believed I am right all the time; but I am right in this. That's all that's required.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 229
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/12/2012 7:39:49 AM
Astrophysic's has nothing, nessacarily to do with it.
although what i am saying may indeed inform Astrophysics.
 Samhein
Joined: 7/20/2010
Msg: 230
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/12/2012 7:41:36 AM
And a quick clarification,

and if there are more than one kind of infinite particle,
they may be measured relative to each other,
by their number per Volume of space in an infinite space.
thus there are greater and lesser infinities.

No. If you're comparing, you're comparing concrete numbers within the volume you claim to be measuring, and coming up with a concrete number ratio. Then, you are considering the result as an average compared to everywhere. But you are still numbering, and then extrapolating. But you'd be wrong to assert one was greater as you stretch the set contents to infinity. There's just no way around that.

if you removed your preference to assert infinity then you might have something. But you're working, essentially, with square circles, here.

You can assert there's more hydrogen than oxygen in the universe, based on the comparative frequency of their atomic composition and creation in stars; but you can never prove it nor state it is certain. There's no sense in it if you start talking about infinity.
If there's infinite oxygen and infinite hydrogen, it doesn't matter.
 Samhein
Joined: 7/20/2010
Msg: 231
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/12/2012 7:43:31 AM

although what i am saying may indeed inform Astrophysics.
that's very, very funny
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 232
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/12/2012 8:03:44 AM
i will elucidate, it may be you are confused,
perhaps not every mathmatical construct has a physical analog in the universe.

that it is thought, wrongly to my mind, that there are bounds to space and time because of the work of Einstein and that there are a limited number of particle in the actual universe.

in no way limits us from imagining an another kind a infinite one with flat space, absolute, going to infinity in all directions and with infinite particles of several kinds in greater and lesser quanities.
and that because all the particles have momentum and because of the density of them that they all eventually hit each other and these interactions build up up into forces and particles,
because, as we know, there are no actions at a distance.
such is the universe that i think we actually live in.

if not, nonetheless it is an imaginable one and it proves and demonstrates my point about greater and lesser infinities completely.

they don't have to actually exist for what i say about them to be true.
 Samhein
Joined: 7/20/2010
Msg: 233
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/12/2012 8:06:40 AM
I realize you have some pathology against Einstein, but, you aren't talking about some abstract universe; you're talking about this one. So to suddenly pretend you're measuring hypothetical infinities, when you've been talking about our actual universe all this time, simply shows that your 'elucidation' is really a clumsy effort to cover your mistake.

Unless your diatribes that your God is responsible for some hypothetical universe instead of ours, is what you were really saying all this time?

If you're talking about your God making his own pretend universe, i've got no problem talking about mythology in context.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 234
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/12/2012 8:09:52 AM
because i am working hypothetically,
i can stipulate with certainty that all equal areas of space are fill with an equal number of particles in relation to each other,
it is not a guess, it is given, there is no extrapolation,
because no measurement is needed.
 Samhein
Joined: 7/20/2010
Msg: 235
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/12/2012 8:13:38 AM
You will have to agree then that an infinite number of gods actually created the universe.

And not merely one.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 236
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/12/2012 8:30:18 AM
I am sorry that you made a mistake.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 237
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/12/2012 12:49:02 PM
Galileo,
Newton,
Einstein,
All wrong,
Universe by Jon,
And God, of Course!

which regards to the inertia of gravitationally attracted bodies.
It is not greater per per pound of mass for larger bodies than for smaller,
therefore because gravitation is directly proportional to the sum of the mass of the bodies so is the acceleration.

for example: the earth attracts a 5 and 10 pound pound mass equally pound for pound,
and this cancels out their inertia.
but the 5 and ten pound weight pull at the same number of pounds when they pull at the earth but with different masses themselves.
and there fore with different gravitational forces if they are the same diameter
leading to differences in acceleration,
as inertia has already been overcome and doesn't need to be again.

Galilio might have been correct if everything had the same mass per volume. but materials have different densities and therefore gravitationally attract each other at different rates across the same amount of space.
 crguy43
Joined: 2/14/2011
Msg: 238
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/12/2012 2:12:31 PM
There's nothing inherently more rational in Mr. Hawking's position--that "gravity" or some such force spurred creation of the universe randomly out of nothing--than assuming there is a God. In the end, it's as much what Hawking for whatever reasons WANTS to believe as opposed to what the most devout believer WANTS to believe. Until one or the other can present objective proof--and Hawking may think he has, but it's just the opinion spawned in his 400 grams or so of grey matter--one belief system is as valid as the other. It may be icily heroic to believe that we're in this mess alone, but I'll cast my lot with the comfort provided by the belief that life has ultimate meaning and purpose beyond the random play of atoms...
 justanicegy_2
Joined: 7/18/2007
Msg: 239
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/12/2012 8:35:40 PM
God certainly created the Universe...at least for those that view God as a reality. For those whos reality does not include God, then the Universe needed no devine slap to come into existance. Argue whos reality is the "truth" for however long you wish....good luck! God does exist....either as an absolute truth, or a necessary invention of man. And it really doesn't matter which one it is. Sometimes my reality of the Universe includes a God "particle", other times, it just unfolds as randomly as you or I, live our lives beneath that inverted bowl we call the sky....A bit of old Omar thrown in for fun. :)
 Samhein
Joined: 7/20/2010
Msg: 240
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/12/2012 11:37:51 PM
Science and the irrational religions simply aren't on the same level of discernment of truth no matter how many times that old saw is reworded, or those religions stomp their feet to be taken seriously.

It was not 'out of nothing' either Crguy, that's simply another error those who fight against science, make all too frequently. it's been addressed throughout this thread.
 mccullough64
Joined: 11/11/2006
Msg: 241
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Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/13/2012 7:43:51 AM
Talking about errors Newtons, formula F=MA is frequently misunderstood and is incorrect.
because Galilean Relativity is wrong, and acceleration is not a constant. The formula should read F=MGI or Force equals mass times gravitational intensity .

as the 5 and 10 pound weights are attracted by the earth's gravity
on a equal, pound for pound basis and thus inertia is overcome equally,
it does not have to be calculated again and double-charged
when the gravitational attractions of the 5 and ten pound weights are calculated.
thus because the distance is the same
but the gravitational intensity of the ten pound weight greater
and gravitational attraction is responsible for acceleration.
the acceleration of the ten pound weight will be greater than the five pound weight
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 242
Stephen Hawking: God Did Not Create the Universe
Posted: 3/13/2012 2:20:29 PM

Talking about errors Newtons, formula F=MA is frequently misunderstood and is incorrect. because Galilean Relativity is wrong, and acceleration is not a constant. The formula should read F=MGI or Force equals mass times gravitational intensity .


Okey doke, then. Now provide the proof of this assertion through application of your mathematical formula. Citation to a peer reviewed paper in any of the recognized scientific publications such as Nature should do it.

BTW...WTF is "Galilean Relativity" anyway!? Last I looked...there was no such thing!
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