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 ItsMargo
Joined: 4/24/2007
Msg: 24
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Traditional vs. Modern (or maybe not)Page 2 of 3    (1, 2, 3)
Funny, on my second read of your OP I thought "oh, I wonder if what she's after is a man who believes in equality but will also defer to women?"

If so, in my northern experience, that is quite a big 'ask', if not an impossible (to my way of thinking) way to live ones life. It seems to me, trying to hold two quite divergent belief systems simultaneously kinda has one be incompatible in their own skin.

Quite often, men who practice chivalry also tend to have quite traditional pov about who a woman should be in the world. And *sometimes* it's just layered on learned behviour and doesn't reflect their real regard for the other person.

You might want to search chivalry; there's been a number of threads on the topic, with some very divergent opinions.
 az109
Joined: 7/3/2010
Msg: 25
Traditional vs. Modern (or maybe not)
Posted: 9/18/2010 10:46:41 AM

How does a modern woman with traditional beliefs meet a traditional man with modern beliefs?

The distinction between modern and traditional applied to people and beliefs is interesting in this case for the woman herself being labeled modern, the man himself not but his beliefs, are, and, of course, the other way around. Neither has beliefs matching themselves. Neither believes in what they actually are. You want a man to treat you, a modern women, in traditional ways. You crave incongruity. You don't want a modern man, despite your being a modern women. You want a traditional man whose beliefs agree not with your own, which are traditional, but with yourself, the modern woman.

After careful study of this apparent paradox I have decided that what is going on here is that you want a man who will do what you want him to do and will agree with you, but so far haven't found one like that. To meet a man who will do what you want and agree with you, go someplace there are men, or at least is one, and want what he does, and only say things you know he will agree with.
 ItsMargo
Joined: 4/24/2007
Msg: 26
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Traditional vs. Modern (or maybe not)
Posted: 9/18/2010 11:43:59 AM
^^ oh az, you put it much better than I did!

I can't imagine what one would have to go through to live such an incongruity if, indeed, it is even possible to do.


what is going on here is that you want a man who will do what you want him to do and will agree with you, but so far haven't found one like that.
 Zikoris
Joined: 9/16/2009
Msg: 27
Traditional vs. Modern (or maybe not)
Posted: 9/18/2010 12:27:19 PM

In terms of what attributes make me a "modern" woman, those are things that are left for me and those who know me.


So, you're willing to write paragraphs about the traits that make you traditional, but the traits that make you modern are some big secret?


Suffice it to say, they go beyond paying my own way and making my own money, WHICH I DO!


In your mind, requiring the man to pay for the date = paying your own way?

I'm truly a modern woman(ask for separate bills in restaurants, don't demand any sort of special treatment, etc) and women like this make me want to bang my head in the wall. Sort of like "vegetarians" who "only eat fish, chicken, and pork".
 afashionlady
Joined: 4/19/2008
Msg: 28
Traditional vs. Modern (or maybe not)
Posted: 9/18/2010 12:54:58 PM
You say your modern but won't really explain why...you do realize that's confusing right?

I don't see your list as traditional...the things you've listed are good requirements but some of them seem to border more of wanting a man with manners. And there's nothing wrong with that but even a "modern" man has these qualities.

I wonder if the type of man you want is one that would be at home in church than not? Yes, I know, there's not always a plethora of men there but from reading this and your profile, I wonder if that's more of what you're seeking.

Believe it or not you're not really asking for anything different than most men and women, our age or not. To me, this is more about compatibility...nothing to do with being traditional or modern (and for some reason calling yourself modern doesn't sound right...it's an outdated way of looking at yourself sweetness, just a thought. The song "Thoroughly Modern Millie" comes to mind...not a pretty thought).

Too many times we spend so much time putting labels on people that we think we need or want a certain type of person.

The qualities you've listed can be found...its the packaging that they might be in that might make it hard to see them
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 29
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Traditional vs. Modern (or maybe not)
Posted: 9/18/2010 1:25:12 PM
Good stuff from Az, Margo, and Afashionlady, as usual. I'm just stepping in to add:
in addition to the inherent conflicts in what you are saying and asking for, there are assumptions you are making about what your list of behaviors MEANS. What you call traditional behaviors (the guy acting as though the woman requires constant protection from her own innocent foolishness), obviously is being translated in your mind to indicate that the guy is ALSO thoughtful, caring, forward looking, and has various other traits you think will make for a good mate.
There's no surprise to this, since it's the REASON these behaviors were DESIGNED AND TAUGHT. The trouble now AND in the past, is that there really never has been any direct connection between a given set of public behaviors, and the true character of a person.
Extremely polite people are often found in private to be self-centered, thoughtless jerks to their families. No, not always, don't be silly. My point is, that there is no such thing as making up a list of behaviors or characteristics, or anything else, and being able to turn that into a guaranteed good match. Watch out that your fantasy, childhood-acquired picture of what makes for a "good man" don't cause you to commit yourself to a truly incompatible person.
 Kranck
Joined: 11/30/2009
Msg: 31
Traditional vs. Modern (or maybe not)
Posted: 9/18/2010 5:12:39 PM
In addition, I am curious as to whether people on POF are searching for something that doesn't exist, either online or elsewhere. There may be "chemistry" and "compatibility", but have we become so distorted in our thinking and expectations that we no longer know that is "real", or how to recognize it?

Yes, by general agreement, I’d say we are. Searching for what doesn't exist. Not any given one of us, I hasten to add, not you or me, but the others, yes definitely.
They’re too picky, but they settle when they shouldn’t. They rush into things, but they have a candy-store mentality.
They don’t give each other a half a chance, but they don’t see the red flags either when they’re waving. Not me, or you. But those other folks, yes. They’re too hesitant. Yet impulsive, I’m sure. They don’t know what’s real.
If only they'd turn to us for guidance. Sex and dating shouldn't be left to the individual.
 daynadaze
Joined: 2/11/2008
Msg: 32
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Traditional vs. Modern (or maybe not)
Posted: 9/18/2010 5:50:48 PM
Such deep thoughts, and here I was being simple and thinking she meant she wanted a man who would let her say No!No!No! when she meant Yes!Yes!Yes! and not make her take any responsibility for what happens in the dark.
 ItsMargo
Joined: 4/24/2007
Msg: 33
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Traditional vs. Modern (or maybe not)
Posted: 9/18/2010 7:07:55 PM
I'm really trying to get a corner of what you're trying to look at, but I can't make head nor tails of it.


However, I have had numerous discussions with men on POF who say they are looking for "an old-fashioned" woman. Upon further inquiry, they most often relate to a clearly perceived notion of what roles they think the genders should play (akin to message 19). I consider those things as ways to care for those whom I care about.

OK, so these men are congruent. They are, from what is presented, being who they are, saying who they are and looking for someone who shares their way of looking at the world. If you consider "these things" ways to care for those you care about, you *seem* to be saying you would be compatible, as you share a similar perception of "who you are and how the world should work".


I am of the impression that roles within a relationship are established by the individuals.

Well, yes, although I am leery of 'roles' as some use it like "here's the jacket I'm wearing tonight". So, sidestepping the word in hopes of getting to your intent... Two people get together and their values, beliefs and attitudes will naturally lead them to a particular way of being. If this easily meshes, say they are perceiving the world, themselves and the others in a similar way, they have an easy dynamic.


In addition, I am curious as to whether people on POF are searching for something that doesn't exist, either online or elsewhere. There may be "chemistry" and "compatibility", but have we become so distorted in our thinking and expectations that we no longer know that is "real", or how to recognize it?

Huh? Perceptual differences would say: what is real to one person will look distorted to someone else.
 az109
Joined: 7/3/2010
Msg: 34
Traditional vs. Modern (or maybe not)
Posted: 9/18/2010 7:21:27 PM
Someone who was looking for either a man or woman would easily find many of those here. Look left, look right; you are surrounded.

Now, when you get sophisticated to the point of looking for a man or woman who is endowed with highly complex and abstract qualities and combination qualities such as modernistic yet old fashioned, uniquely normal, or independently empathetic with selective mind reading capabilities, your discernment has become a nearly impossible feat of simultaneous definition and recognition of a mythical beast that dwells not among the present men and women, but deep within your own psyche as the **stard love child of how the woman your father should have married would love the man he failed to become.
 beehearnow
Joined: 9/28/2007
Msg: 35
Traditional vs. Modern (or maybe not)
Posted: 9/18/2010 8:59:45 PM

your discernment has become a nearly impossible feat of simultaneous definition and recognition of a mythical beast that dwells not among the present men and women, but deep within your own psyche as the **stard love child of how the woman your father should have married would love the man he failed to become.


good stuff, az109

OP, I'm with Margo, not really sure what you are getting at...you seem to be wondering if the very thing you are presented with, and that you say is what you would expect, from men actually exists?

It's as though you are asking this classic question: Is reality a perception or is perception a reality?
 AintNoDeal
Joined: 2/3/2010
Msg: 36
Traditional vs. Modern (or maybe not)
Posted: 9/18/2010 11:55:17 PM
...okay...

Whatever train of thought was started by this thread has jumped the tracks, fallen off the bridge, and is now quite underwater in the river. Anyone riding on that train is a casualty.

Now, those at the station can keep wondering "What happend to that train?" and the Railman will say "It was never gonna make it there, anyway. No Refunds!"

Here's the ticket: Stop dreaming for a day, and read the friggin' Destination Board above the ticket booth. Find a destination you'd like to go, and get on the friggin' train. Stop complaining about the quality of the ride.

You have to make a decision in the REAL WORLD, because that Fantasy Train is never going anywhere.
 RealisticRomantic
Joined: 7/19/2010
Msg: 37
Traditional vs. Modern (or maybe not)
Posted: 9/19/2010 1:47:41 AM
They are down at the I want to have my cake and eat it too store.

This was supposed to be funny but has more horsepower than at first glance. Both terms are perjorative. Modern means disgraceful beach and traditional means fastideous old bag. You don't go for both when what you really want is neither.
 Delete_Me_Please
Joined: 11/10/2009
Msg: 39
Traditional vs. Modern (or maybe not)
Posted: 9/19/2010 8:14:21 PM

How does a modern woman with traditional beliefs meet a traditional man with modern beliefs?

You find someone you click with who has a good understanding of manners and when it comes to preferences that are important to you, you give him a heads up. Not every person wants to hold hands every time they walk and not every person is familiar with your stair rules (I've never heard those before). So if those are things you really like, you just tell him so. But finding a guy who will treat when he asks you out or who holds opens doors is not the slightest bit difficult to find, despite what many of the people here make it seem. You just have to speak up about the things that aren't such common knowledge.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 40
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Traditional vs. Modern (or maybe not)
Posted: 9/20/2010 12:35:36 PM

How does a modern woman with traditional beliefs meet a traditional man with modern beliefs?

Do you think that the two could be compatible?
The qualities you look for, are all qualities that men were taught to do by their mothers, because women were considered weaker and less capable. Men held doors open for women, because they would struggle to open a normal door. Men would hold hands, to make women feel secure when they were outside of their house, because they never left their home. Men would go before you as you walk down stairs and behind you as you walked down them, so that if you fell, you could be caught by the man, because women were weak and prone to falling. Men would pay for women, because women would stay home and so didn't earn any money to spend. Men would ask women out, because women were expected to be shy and timid, to just accept whatever they got, because they lacked the courage to do anything like approach people.

Men would only be happy doing these things for women, if the women were nowhere near as capable as them, and they liked that, that being, a man who wanted a traditional shy home-maker, who would accept whatever her husband gave her, in other words, a man who wants a traditional woman.
 revoskeepnus
Joined: 9/2/2010
Msg: 41
Traditional vs. Modern (or maybe not)
Posted: 9/20/2010 12:41:07 PM
I have no idea what the op is saying, but... I think she means...
someone to pay the bills
that's all I need :)

nevermind
back to Spanish...
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 42
Traditional vs. Modern (or maybe not)
Posted: 9/20/2010 12:54:23 PM

In terms of what attributes make me a "modern" woman, those are things that are left for me and those who know me. Suffice it to say, they go beyond paying my own way and making my own money, WHICH I DO! And, NO. I am not an "old" 46 by any means.

I do realize that using labels like "traditional" and "modern" may cause strong reactions is some, but please FOCUS on the heart of the questions.

The heart of the question is what you mean by modern and traditional. It's impossible to say anything without knowing that. If you want to keep that between you and those who know you, ask those who know you.
 KissMyKarma
Joined: 9/9/2010
Msg: 44
Traditional vs. Modern (or maybe not)
Posted: 9/20/2010 9:18:19 PM
What you're looking for is a Gentleman.

It never goes in and out of style but it's hard to find nowadays.
Men learn it (or don't learn it) from their Dads example and from what their Mom expected.
It's a little harder now, some girls don't like all that goofing around and like to be considered independent, so some of the gentle ways have been uningrained in men and not appreciated as they should be. IMO.

Keep looking. They're there.
They're just being Gentlemen and not all out in your face asking for a booty call.
 --Zen--
Joined: 6/29/2011
Msg: 45
Traditional vs. Modern (or maybe not)
Posted: 3/1/2012 5:38:25 AM
Author. In a real world you can not only have positive qualities without the negative. You want independence and chivalry. You want flowers, open doors and paid dinner with a committed, romantic, sensitive man who will cook and clean. Men want a lady and a tramp. They want paid expenses, wild casual sex, home cooked diner, clean home while sitting a recliner with a beer and a remote control.

Prepare for stereotypes!

Modern women are arrigant, selfish and indifferent at the same time strong, outspoken and independent. They have trouble forming and maintaining relationships and at the same time make powerful wifes and strong mothers.
typical labels: [career types, feminists, misandrists]

Traditional women are perceived as weak, dependent, manipulative pushovers are gentle, empathic and sensitive who are loving wifes and perfect mothers and rarely have relationship troubles.
typical labels: [domestic engineers, sussie-homemaker]

Modern men are weak, unreliable, emotional wreaks who are also sensitive, tolerant and understanding. They have trouble attracting and keeping a mate at the same time are loving husbands and fathers.
typical labels: [nice-guys, players, metrosexuals]

Traditional men are rigid, uncaring, power hungry despots are also chivalrous, courageous, assertive and outspoken. Perfect providers, strong husbands and wise fathers that rarely have relationship problems.
typical labels: [macho-man, workaholics, misogynists]
 CulturedBlackMan
Joined: 2/20/2012
Msg: 46
Traditional vs. Modern (or maybe not)
Posted: 3/1/2012 5:55:00 AM
It appears to me the conflict resides in you. As a self-professed modern woman how often do you ask a gentleman out, how often do you pick up the tab?

Seems to me many women desire the label modern woman until the check comes then they morph into traditional women.

OR

Im a traditional woman, but you cook, you pick up the tab, Im not doing laundry or falling into any stereotypical traditional roles until it suits me.

Of course being open and honest about your expectations always works, at least the guy knows youre fickle and has the information necessary to know if he wants to proceed....communication usually trumps all issues.
 Maleman999
Joined: 2/14/2010
Msg: 47
Traditional vs. Modern (or maybe not)
Posted: 3/1/2012 8:08:49 AM
This reminds me of the thread started a few weeks ago about Valentine's Day and how modern women suddenly become traditional women on that day-meaning the guy pays for dinner, flowers, and chocolate-then go back to being modern the day after. I can't think of any special day where men totally change for a day.
 Capn_America
Joined: 10/6/2011
Msg: 48
Traditional vs. Modern (or maybe not)
Posted: 3/1/2012 8:54:33 AM

" 3) Go before me as I walk down stairs and behind me as I walk up them;"


LMAO I do that with my 3 1/2 year old, and also have my kids walk to my right so they dont get hit by cars if they pass by, does that count as being chivalrous?
Problem is, and maybe you ladies dont realise it, but a lot of women are NOT like this; a lot of them ridicule such "protective" behavior.
I believe in buying lunch if I go out too, but you getpractically your head ripped off if the girl your dating is "modern". She thinks you think of her as inferior to yourself. The problem with 2012 is the lines are very blurred, very ill defined, and depending on WHICH source of information you listen, you either get "all women are evil" and "All women are sheep" instead of something in between. Same with men.
 Capn_America
Joined: 10/6/2011
Msg: 49
Traditional vs. Modern (or maybe not)
Posted: 3/1/2012 8:55:57 AM

I'll just settle for a guy that wants to walk up and down stairs,
before me or behind me,
instead of playing X-box 24-7


Oh, and I resent that lol. I'm a gamer at heart, probably always will be, yet, if I did have a girlfriend right now, the Xbox's buttons will probably the least of the "buttons" on my mind
 LathaMath
Joined: 1/30/2012
Msg: 50
Traditional vs. Modern (or maybe not)
Posted: 3/1/2012 9:10:55 AM
I think you are having problems with labels and sterotypes. I'd suggest forgetting about "modern" and 'traditional", basically incompatible, and just list the qualities and behaviours for which your are searching in a man or men. I've met several men who I think would suit your requirements, all of them government bureaucrats with univertisty degrees. I think it's because their traditional social values have been tempered by a liberal arts education and a socially conscious career. Not all government bureacrats, mind, but quite a few. They tend to be socially conservative, economically liberal, and risk adverse.
 good_catch77
Joined: 3/28/2007
Msg: 51
Traditional vs. Modern (or maybe not)
Posted: 3/1/2012 9:29:45 AM

I suggest you advertise for a “real man


Well the thing is there are a lot of real men out there. It boils down to physical attraction intertwined with it though. Real men come in all shapes and sizes (as do real women as well)

I was once making a comment on a FB thread about how I would like for women to flirt back if they are interested. I got the "well you're looking at girls and not women" bit (in regards to maturity). I then responded that "the problem with mature women is that they are hard to spot because age doesn't guarantee maturity" I never got a response...all I heard was "crickets".

Point with that is "real men" are equally hard to find because age doesn't guarantee maturity with us guys either.

As to the actual OP, sorry went of on a rant with the "real man" thingy. There are a lot of people out there with red flags and such. Some are very important and "need" others are "wants"....

IE

I "need" a woman that doesn't smoke
I "want" a woman that can cook well

I can live with the 2nd one if she couldn't cook but a smoker is another thing...(don't read into this I just used cook as a example)

I personally "don't sweet the small stuff"...but those big red flags are totally different...
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