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 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 119
I FEEL statement elicits better communication.. Has it worked for you?Page 6 of 7    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)

Hypothetical situation:

I'm a severe animal lover - and it's one of my (VERY FEW) weaknesses. I'll take a stab at this one:

You have a dog that is your absolute best buddy. He loves you, jumps up and down when you come home, gives you licks, and you love him. A random stranger approaches you while you are with your dog. He pulls out a knife and stabs your dog, killing him instantly, and then has the audacity to kick him while laughing in your face. "What are you going do about that, a**hole?!" he says to you. "Huh?! Whatchu gonna do?!"

I'm all about damage control, so I'd find a way to track the guy down later and immediately get my dog medical care. I'd write the guy off as a random nutcase since I don't know him and therefore can't be the target of any grudges, and I'd try to see he got penalized for it. I'd obviously wish I was stabbed instead, but that's irrelevant. It's all about dealing with what's at hand now and crying about it later.

So you're going to say that that person can't make you feel angry and full of rage? And then later, after he runs off, you're going to tell us that you aren't going to feel extreme sadness for the loss of your dog? Your best buddy?

Oh, the dog dies? Well if I tried my best to save the dog and it wasn't to be helped - all I can do is move on. Naturally grief is grief, and I'd feel horrible, but I'd make sure I dealt with it alone and kept it private, as usual.

So in this situation, you're going to tell us that you have a choice in how you feel?

You don't choose how you feel, but you CAN choose what you do about it/how you express it.

Only a robot would be able to distance itself in such an unemotional way. Only a robot would be able to choose how to feel in that situation.

Agreed. You can grieve without causing a scene or torturing others about it, however.

I believe it was Hume who said that emotions are more powerful than ideas. The idea that you can choose how to feel when confronted with someone filling you with rage and anger after killing your dog in such a cold-blooded fashion is ridiculous. Your emotions are going to go into turbo drive! Unless, of course, one is a robot.

Anger and revenge are wasted in this situation, outside of the normal range of grieving. So long as it's part of a process and you move through it it's normal. You can freak out all you want, but it doesn't bring the dog (relationship, job, person, whatever) back.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 120
I FEEL statement elicits better communication.. Has it worked for you?
Posted: 9/28/2010 9:23:06 AM
Indeed why would you. So even a slightest irritation from anyone would cause you break up with them?

Your argument is a logical fallacy known as False dilemma. You left out the obvious alternative (which apparently isn't as obvious as it should be). Know what you really care about and what you don't care about, so that you know what you won't tolerate and what you'll deal with and make sure you're self consistent. I care if my partner cheats on me and I'm sure she cares if I cheat on her. I really don't care if she looks through my stuff or asks me questions that would remove any doubt where I've done something that for whatever reason seems suspicious. My first priority is to make sure she never gets some seed of mistrust planted due to some silly need for privacy. Therefore I expect my relationships to be completely open and I date women who want to share all aspects of my life rather than date women who feel a need to keep parts f themselves private. (I think that such a need is indicative of other issues I'd rathernot deal with, but I digress.) I don't really care how someone I'm dating feels about it. If she feels strongly enough about it to cause conflict, she should date someone with more similar views.

I'm very disorganized (at least as others see things) and the antithesis of a neat freak. My fiancee is a compulsive neat freak. I try to accomodate her rather than argue about it because I don't really care. I don't take it personally when she complains that I sould have put something away that I'm no longer using. I don't care how she says it. I know she wants stuff put away and being careless about doing that is my fault. My fiancee is a little less compulsive and I'm a lot neater.

I expect people to arrive at the time they say they will. I won't tolerate a peron who is always late and needs to be told to arrive early just to arrive on time. It's not negotiable. I either care about something enough to know what I want and how much I'm willing to compromise or I don't care enough to make it an issue. If people actually gave some thought about what is REALLY important and what really DOESN'T matter, dating would be simpler and few people would be puzzled over the behavior of those they date. That would also reduce the psychobabble of the ``I feel'' phrases and ``I statements'' and all of the other nonsense that arises because people get into relationships that are just begging for conflict.
 moraima
Joined: 6/26/2005
Msg: 121
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I FEEL statement elicits better communication.. Has it worked for you?
Posted: 9/28/2010 10:04:56 AM
"So even a slightest irritation from anyone would cause you break up with them? Something like leaving the toilet seat up or being messier than you or forgetting to do things they have agreed to do?"

Yes, I would prefer the seat to be put down. However, on the scale of 1 to 10, it is a minus 1 to me of being important. They may not like the way I squeeze the tooth paste, which direction I refill the toilet roll. To me, the question how important is it comes to my mind. Seriously, if things like this require communication and change behaviour, I don't want to be in such a controlled relationship where it is important to sweat the small stuff.

"And do you not travel? Or forget a restaurant - you are standing in a public place and the same is happening. Or whatever. You like where you are, except someone is there, smoking. Even better - they smoke there even its against the law - you hate it. Then you have a conflict."

Yes, I travel often. I have never travelled to a place that doesn't have designated smoking areas. When I walk into a place, I can decide to sit in the smoking or non smoking area. If I decide to sit in the non smoking area, and someone starts to smoke, all I have to do is wait (and it won't take long) for someone who sweats the small stuff to get into a conflict with the smoker. I will never forget being in Varadero airport (one long building for departure.....one side of the hall is smoking, the other is non smoking). Along came a European tourist who freaked out on someone who was smoking in the smoking area instead of realizing it was a smoking and moving to the other side of the hall. What I found most funny was that this tourist smelled of bo like I have never smelled on another human. He grabbed a police office, and demanded the cigarette be put out. Quietly the police man directed him to the other side of the hall. I can't imagine what it was like for the passengers sitting next to this stinky man on a long plane ride. He was only interested in what bothered him, and didn't even realize (or care) that his stink was offensive to anyone around him. It was all about him.

"Not because he wants to piss you off but because he often misplaces his and cannot find it. Otherwise the relationship is great and you love each other. This however causes you not being able to find the phone quickly when you really need it and it goes to voicemail every time (and out of battery), although you would like to answer it. Voila - you have a conflict."

I wouldn't put myself in a position to fall in love with a person who was selfish and irresponsible.

"You probably did not work with any Skandinavians. So if it did happen, and believe me, some stuff smells up more than one room, you have a conflict."

That is why air freshener was invented. Mole hill not a mountain. If I don't like a smell someone else created that they enjoy in say food............what to do about it? My answer is to find a solution that keeps everyone happy. I can't see that as a reason to get into a conflict. Who am I to try to control what other eat.

"It's not a matter of telling people they get on your nerves. It's a matter of disagreeing on something, disliking something they do that has a bearing on you."

I wasn't suggesting telling anyone that they got on my nerves. I was suggestion, that I would be questioning myself as to why my nerves were so bad, and why was I associating with a person who caused me stress. There are enough people on this planet who don't cause me stress, to not get involved with people who do.

"I am not going to cut ties with someone who i love just because they are not identical to me."

I didn't say identical. In my opinion, we all know what we want in our lives (or at least I hope so), therefore we wouldn't start a relationship and let ourselves fall in love with a person who got on our nerves.

Food for thought on communication. My long term (11 years) international friend and family still don't speak each others language very well (in some cases not at all). For the first couple of years, we communicated through gestures, looking up words in the dictionary, and acting things out. When using email I use google translation which often causes mistranslations due to the fact that there is 5 different types of Spanish. The miscommunications cause us to laugh.

They are from a totally different culture. However, my female friend often says "I understand your life, and you understand mine". That actually means we get each other and nothing about the other person bothers us. How did that happen when we can't communicate properly through language? I am not even sure how to explain it on the internet. People would have to see it work to know it doesn.I just know that we have the same outlook on life, and don't stress the small stuff.
 ItsMargo
Joined: 4/24/2007
Msg: 122
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I FEEL statement elicits better communication.. Has it worked for you?
Posted: 9/28/2010 7:21:14 PM
I highly doubt it. You're going to act on reflex, on pure emotion. And if you say otherwise ... well, then, my friend, it is YOU who have just proven -- once again -- that you are the true robot.

I don't buy it zebra. If you are attempting to prove abelian is robotic, I'd suggest you attempt to do so with a less extreme example. People can and do have very different reflexes and reactions in intense situations; some get swamped by emotions and fall apart while others detach temporarily from emotion, as it isn't useful to the situation, and deal with it logically. And a whole range within the two extremes. Pulling together and being very logical in a dangerous situation does not make one robotic.

An example: when I was 20-something I was kidnapped by two men and over a several hour car ride, I stayed very logical and focused. Emotion did not enter into it, I simply couldn't afford to dwell on fear and anticipatory angst about whether I was going to be killed after they raped me. I didn't think "oh, I can't be emotional here", it was my instinctive or reflex reaction to being in danger. I couldn't afford to be angry with them. Instead, I watched them with hyper attention and, noting their reactions, talked them into letting me go (well, throwing me out of a moving car on the highway, but same result). To give you some assurance that I am not robotic, once I reached safety I collapsed into the sobbing mound of frightened and all-too-human me. And no, as far as I can recall, I didn't actually use "I feel" statements in this situation, lol.

Further, I don't recall which scientist identified this, but in the book "Destructive Emotions" co-authored by the Dalai Lama, research was presented demonstrating there is a window of a second or two between stimulus and response. The contention is no one HAS to have a 'knee jerk' response to emotional stimulus. In fact, it's suggested that all of us can train ourselves to be more thoughtful and less reactive. If we do this will be a much more peaceful world.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 123
I FEEL statement elicits better communication.. Has it worked for you?
Posted: 9/28/2010 9:01:30 PM
Clever ... but totally false.

Get over it. You're just another logically challenged person who can be maniplulated like a puppet by your enotional reactions and it pisses you off when I point out how programmable you are.

A man just stabs your dog and is taunting you and laughing in your face immediately afterward. You're telling me you choose how you're going to react in that situation?

As a matter of fact, yes, I am. I don't lose it and go nuts in situations like that. As soon as you allow someone to control your emotions, you let them control you. I'm sorry if you have no control over your reactions under pressure, but I'd hate to be you.

I highly doubt it.

You just don't want to believe it.

You're going to act on reflex, on pure emotion. And if you say otherwise ... well, then, my friend, it is YOU who have just proven -- once again -- that you are the true robot.

The robot is the person who everyone can program to react like a puppet, ie., you.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 124
I FEEL statement elicits better communication.. Has it worked for you?
Posted: 9/29/2010 6:42:53 AM
Who the f*ck cares?!

Uh, anyone who doesn't like being manipulated or having people push their buttons?

With your logic, then, if someone makes you feel joy, arousal, or happiness, then you're giving them control over you!

As I've noted in the past, you are logically challenged, so I don't think you'll ever get the point that people differ from lower life forms precisely because they can reason and overcome their intinctual reactions. I can enjoy a hell of a lot better adrenaline rush than a person who avoids doing risky things and I'll live longer and have more fun than a person who does risky things but panics under pressure. I'll also have a better sex life if I'm not easily manipulated by every woman willing to sleep with me and think with the big head instead of reacting to the little one.

You say that the robot is the person who everyone can program to react like a puppet, but you've got it wrong, bro'.

Not at all. People who react without thinking are not only easy to manipulate, but they become extremely confused when someone fails to react in the way they expect. Yawn.
 moraima
Joined: 6/26/2005
Msg: 125
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I FEEL statement elicits better communication.. Has it worked for you?
Posted: 9/29/2010 7:05:24 AM
"People who react without thinking are not only easy to manipulate, but they become extremely confused when someone fails to react in the way they expect."

Confused for sure. Most expect to communicate with full on emotion, and have no idea what to do next when others don't buy into the drama.

Took me several years in my youth to learn to tools don't to play the drama games. Some never learn how to get past their emotions and will be slaves to their emotions for life.

People are welcome to live their lives how they wish. However expecting others to be involved with them for the most part is a loosing battle.

Life doesn't have to be dysfunctional. Communication can not work in a dysfunctional relationship, no matter what skills of communication are used.
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 126
I FEEL statement elicits better communication.. Has it worked for you?
Posted: 9/29/2010 10:52:35 AM
I think emotions are getting confused with reactions in some cases here. How you feel and what you do about it are very different. There are times when paralyzing emotions HAVE to be put aside in order to survive or get through a crisis, but they're there. You can control them, organize them, and even disregard them if they don't fit the situation or they impede what you're trying to do - but your natural instinct in certain situations will bring up an (albeit internal) initial emotional response.
 4ms4me
Joined: 4/24/2010
Msg: 127
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I FEEL statement elicits better communication.. Has it worked for you?
Posted: 9/29/2010 11:17:04 AM
Get over it. You're just another logically challenged person who can be maniplulated like a puppet by your enotional reactions and it pisses you off when I point out how programmable you are.

This seems like a pretty emotional response. I think a response not based on emotion would be along the lines of "We disagree" and not a lot else at this point - ie: walking away because you aren't one to be drawn into emotional displays regardless of the provocation. At least you've shown you're not a robot.



I think emotions are getting confused with reactions in some cases here. How you feel and what you do about it are very different. There are times when paralyzing emotions HAVE to be put aside in order to survive or get through a crisis, but they're there. You can control them, organize them, and even disregard them if they don't fit the situation or they impede what you're trying to do - but your natural instinct in certain situations will bring up an (albeit internal) initial emotional response.

What she said. I have to say that in my experience on these forums, WIP and Margo are two of the more stellar examples of people able to keep their emotions from influencing their behavior. Or at least their posts.
 tinainhouston39
Joined: 8/9/2009
Msg: 128
I FEEL statement elicits better communication.. Has it worked for you?
Posted: 9/29/2010 11:26:16 AM
I don't really use "I feel" statements. For me it's kinda intention assuming…you assume intention when you own your “feelers”. I'm a principle fighter to begin with so I guess that style doesn’t really work. I'm more into deductive reasoning....but the old "...yeah me no likie" works well. I don't like having the same conversations over and over again. I state my expectation and use deductive reasoning to express the translation from settlement to principle and allow the person to correct the behavior. Everyone has choices and if they choose to do it, then I make my choice, but I'm not going to continue to have the same conversations over and over again....nor am I going to lecture a grown man. I have found that most men are unaware...their intentions aren't that which women often perceive. Therefore, a simple "me no likie" usually does the trick....Just remember, it's really not that serious for men..they really don't care to hear all those details...lol
 torquoise pixie
Joined: 11/20/2008
Msg: 129
I FEEL statement elicits better communication.. Has it worked for you?
Posted: 9/29/2010 5:16:13 PM
@moirama


Yes, I would prefer the seat to be put down. However, on the scale of 1 to 10, it is a minus 1 to me of being important. They may not like the way I squeeze the tooth paste, which direction I refill the toilet roll. To me, the question how important is it comes to my mind. Seriously, if things like this require communication and change behaviour, I don't want to be in such a controlled relationship where it is important to sweat the small stuff.

I did not say you need to sweat it. I had something simple like "each time I go in and out the study, I trip over your shoes" in my mind. In my experience, it works and the person (being considerate and caring for how I feel), puts their shoes away. Not perhaps 100% of the time, but if they can and remember, they do it. If I said nothing, I would be constantly tripping over the shoes. Of course I try to be considerate in the same way and I prefer to be told what someone does not like. It does not mean I will kill myself not doing it, but if its all the same to me, I will not do it.


If I decide to sit in the non smoking area, and someone starts to smoke, all I have to do is wait (and it won't take long) for someone who sweats the small stuff to get into a conflict with the smoker.

Oh I see. Well if the smoke does bother you, then all you are doing, is not having guts to be assertive. If it does not bother you, why would you even care if someone stops it. And then if it actually DID bother you, instead of being thankful that someone had the guts to say something, you think you are better than them, because they sweat the small stuff and you don't. By the way, what I had in mind did not involve freaking out or getting a police officer but something like "Would you please smoke a bit further away from the restaurant, thank you." That usually meets with a response like "Certainly, sorry".


I wouldn't put myself in a position to fall in love with a person who was selfish and irresponsible

That is rather funny. So you would break up with them as soon as their bad phone hanging habits come to light. Oh yes, that is much better solution than talking about it - and who knows - finding out that they actually care enough to make effort to put the phone where it belongs. Talking about sweating small stuff… shish


That is why air freshener was invented. Mole hill not a mountain. If I don't like a smell someone else created that they enjoy in say food............what to do about it? My answer is to find a solution that keeps everyone happy. I can't see that as a reason to get into a conflict. Who am I to try to control what other eat.

We have an unwritten agreement at work that people don't generally bring and heat up fish, because it really does stink up the place. Everybody IS happier that way. Clearly you did not like the BO of the person in the airport. Now imagine that one of your employees would stop showering and would stink like this all day long right there next to you, making you want to hurl. Would you just go on, not doing anything about it?


I was suggestion, that I would be questioning myself as to why my nerves were so bad, and why was I associating with a person who caused me stress. There are enough people on this planet who don't cause me stress, to not get involved with people who do.

Yes, I get that and I agree with it, except I don't ditch people because they don't put phones on chargers. There is tiny stuff, which I just let be, there is small repeated stuff, which I express myself about, there is big stuff, which I express myself about too, but more strongly, and then only there is break up stuff.

Emailing someone for 11 years, long distance, is somewhat different from close everyday relationship, and hardly an illustration of how tolerant and chilled you are. I don't have conflicts with such people either
 torquoise pixie
Joined: 11/20/2008
Msg: 130
I FEEL statement elicits better communication.. Has it worked for you?
Posted: 9/29/2010 5:19:01 PM

@ Zebra Circle


In fact, I ask others -- does this guy seem like he's a real human being?!

Yes, and if he is really that much in control and aware, kudos to him.


Can a human being be this detached from his emotions and operate only on pure logic?!

But that is not the case. It's a case of not letting your emotions dictate what you do and being aware of your choices. Yes, it is possible. Whether abelian is really like that, I have no way of knowing, but it is an ideal I would like to strive for myself and occasionally manage. I do not deal with killed dogs on daily basis, but I get my share of more realistic challenges.


So a doctor hits your knee with his little hammer and your knee twitches in the air ever so slightly. That's called a reflex -- an unthinking reflex. You're telling me you choose to lift your leg after the hammer hits it? I doubt it.

I don't see him saying anything like that. Reaction to an emotion or external situation is chosen (or you are acting of pre-programming). It's not a reflex, therefore this is a red herring (god I hate that phrase, but what do you call it when you see one)

I am not saying that we all don't sometimes react automatically, because we do. That does not mean we are not capable of choice, only not aware of it, or not using it.

Further abelian never said he does not allow himself to feel sadness or anger, but that he does not allow these to control him, which is a different thing. You can choose what to do about an anger.


With your logic, then, if someone makes you feel joy, arousal, or happiness, then you're giving them control over you!

Again, you are confusing, perhaps even on purpose two separate things. 1) Feeling something, 2) Acting on it in a pre-programmed (as opposed to chosen) way. Another read herring.
Nobody can even make you feel anything anyway, you have to open yourself to it, whether its and anger or sexual arousal. And THEN you still have an ability (whether used or not) to choose what you DO about it.

Who the f*ck cares?!

I do, because I like to act with awareness, not automatically and let others push my buttons.


I'm a human being; I'm a social creature. I crave human contact. And as we all know, there are a ton of different personalities out there, so I'm not going to get along with all of us. Sometimes, people are going to bring pure joy to my life. Other times, some people are going to bring anger and saddness to my life. But a lot of times, people are going to bring me both joy and pain to my life -- and these are the most special type of people of all.

And you can choose both who you associate with as well as how you react to them.


You wouldn't know this, however, because as soon as someone brings you some pain -- Mr. my way or the highway -- you cut them out of your life.

Don't know about abelian, but My way or high way is not my way, as I am demonstrating in other posts. Which does not mean there are not boundaries or level of aggravation that would not make me choose to break up with someone.


>> ... it was my instinctive or reflex reaction to being in danger.

Exactly. Your body's desire for self-preservation kicked into reflex mode and did what it needed to do to take care of itself. This ultimately lead to the following, once it was over ...


>> once I reached safety I collapsed into the sobbing mound of frightened and all-too-human me.

abelian would never have done such a thing (or maybe he wouldn't even have been capable of doing such a thing, being a robot and all) because that, in abelian's words, "would have given them control of (him)."

But like yourself, I -- and most of us here -- would have felt the same thing and displayed a pretty similar set of emotions once it was all over.

I don't know how you can claim what abelian would do. The way I understood what he said, is that he would consider breaking down in the car, letting panic take over and losing it WHILST he needed to keep a cool head, a way to let the situation control him.
I also don't think Margo reacted instinctively, what she says is that she did not allow herself to let the panic and horror take over until she was in safety, which is when she let her emotions out. I don't see it as being in conflict with what abelian says.

Your concert and gas station scenarios are both red herrings. Again abelian did not claim that feeling an emotion = letting someone control you. He said that not choosing what you will do about the emotion, and reacting without thinking = letting others control you. At the petrol station if it was your only option to get the fuel or get stuck, you would have to use it. Then it is even more advisable to THINK - can this be done safely etc.
Btw, there are certainly situations, where it is fine to let go, not think and just act based on emotions and instinct - like when you are having sex with someone. There are others where keeping your head clear can make a difference between life and death.

Whether or not I or Margo or whoever believes that abelian would be able to always control himself, is irrelevant. Nobody is perfect and we all sometimes slip into autopilot. It is good to stop every now and then and realise this, and check if the autopilot is taking us where we want to land.


Last I checked, "being manipulated" isn't an emotion -- but it's one you keep harping on.

Nobody said the problem is to feel something, he said the problem is letting that control your behaviour. Thus, if you always react automatically, people can push your buttons aka manipulate you.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 131
I FEEL statement elicits better communication.. Has it worked for you?
Posted: 9/29/2010 6:14:21 PM

Hey, abelian! I think Plenty of Fish has a match for you.

I already found a match here - my fiancee.
 moraima
Joined: 6/26/2005
Msg: 132
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I FEEL statement elicits better communication.. Has it worked for you?
Posted: 9/29/2010 6:55:17 PM
"I did not say you need to sweat it. "

Yet, you had a list of examples you addressed to me.

I had something simple like "each time I go in and out the study, I trip over your shoes" in my mind. In my experience, it works and the person (being considerate and caring for how I feel), puts their shoes away. "

If the person was considerate, it wouldn't be a problem in the first place, and there would be nothing to be considerate about.

"Oh I see. Well if the smoke does bother you, then all you are doing, is not having guts to be assertive. If it does not bother you, why would you even care if someone stops it. "

I don't care. I just enjoy people watching and how they stress out is interesting.
I repeat "Smoke free restaurant in Ontario".

"We have an unwritten agreement at work that people don't generally bring and heat up fish, because it really does stink up the place. Everybody IS happier that way. "

Guess you don't eat in restaurants that cook fish.

"Clearly you did not like the BO of the person in the airport."

No, I just found it amusing that he was so self absorded.

"except I don't ditch people because they don't put phones on chargers. There is tiny stuff, which I just let be, there is small repeated stuff, which I express myself about, there is big stuff, which I express myself about too, but more strongly, and then only there is break up stuff."

Sounds more like communicating that changing people to meet your standards is the issue.

"Emailing someone for 11 years, long distance, is somewhat different from close everyday relationship, and hardly an illustration of how tolerant and chilled you are. I don't have conflicts with such people either "

Part of communicating is listening to what the other person actually said, rather than changing the meaning of what they said. Please read the misunderstood part of what I posted.

People can say "I feel" as much as they like, however, is they don't listen to the answers they get, they might as well save their breath.
 packagedealx3
Joined: 2/4/2006
Msg: 133
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I FEEL statement elicits better communication.. Has it worked for you?
Posted: 10/1/2010 12:54:53 AM
Sweetness, I don't know that the self-help industry exists because there are so many people that are necessarily emotionally damaged or otherwise not emotionally healthy. We live in a culture that has changed a great deal since the 1950s through to sometime I think in the 1970s when the unspoken mantra for families was let's pretend that everything is peachy keen. You had a lot of parents during that era who drank a lot and most of the women were on valium. Each family seemed to have some significant skeletons or dysfunction.

I see the self-help industry as people being proactive about their emotional growth and not waiting until they need a therapist to work through feelings, thoughts, attitudes. I can't imagine trying to raise my children without having read books and umpteen magazines, particularly during the younger years. The irony of parenting is that by the time you figure out how to deal with one stage the kid is onto the next thing that you may have some instincts about, but without looking at what other people have learned, you are pretty much flying by the seat of your pants.

I think with me, I may have some lightbulb moments when reading a book or article but in many cases, information has reinforced my first response to a situation, or it just helped me to organize thoughts that were already there that I hadn't really crystallized yet.

An extreme of anything isn't good. If someone is using this genre to do their thinking for them, of course that's not advisable, but not seeking out books that might help you gain a little balance or wisdom to me is a bit like failing to ask a question because you assume that the answer is no. You may get nothing out of a book, television show, or article but is this a reason to fail to seek it out?
 packagedealx3
Joined: 2/4/2006
Msg: 134
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I FEEL statement elicits better communication.. Has it worked for you?
Posted: 10/1/2010 1:17:54 AM

Zebra Circle,
vast majority of your everyday experiences does not involve meeting psychos with knives who are out there to get your dog. 99.999999% of your conflicts are far milder than that. None the less - generic answer is - you cannot choose what you FEEL(i agree on that), but you can choose what you DO about that feeling.
You can also choose what you THINK and one more time - what you DO, and that both drives your emotions significantly, so indirectly you can, to a degree, choose what you feel.

Nice.

What Abelian illustrates is far from robotic. With your dog whacker example, a robotic response would be turning on the attacker and I agree with Abelian, it illustrates that you care less about the dog than righting a wrong done to you. If you cared about he wrong to the dog you would focus your attention on whether the dog's life might be saved. Even if you realize instantly that the dog is already dead, don't you want to be there with the dog regardless?

It takes a much stronger character to experience passionate emotions while not allowing those emotions to drive one's behavior. In my experience, those that espouse the notion that one cannot control his feelings has found a convenient way to shun accountability for his actions. Vigilante justice is frowned upon in this society but if it works for you, have at it.

I don't want an antiseptic life but I also would prefer not to exist in constant chaos.
 torquoise pixie
Joined: 11/20/2008
Msg: 135
I FEEL statement elicits better communication.. Has it worked for you?
Posted: 10/1/2010 8:13:04 AM


Nobody can even make you feel anything anyway, you have to open yourself to it, whether its and anger or sexual arousal. And THEN you still have an ability (whether used or not) to choose what you DO about it.
Hey, abelian! I think Plenty of Fish has a match for you.

I take that as a compliment, i.e. your acknowledgment, that I don't punch everyone who pisses me off or jump into bed with everyone who I find attractive. Yes, I am aware I said "who pisses me off", I used that as a shorthand, still nobody has power over me in that they will dictate my emotions, let alone my behaviour.
 torquoise pixie
Joined: 11/20/2008
Msg: 136
I FEEL statement elicits better communication.. Has it worked for you?
Posted: 10/1/2010 8:39:03 AM

"I did not say you need to sweat it. "

Yet, you had a list of examples you addressed to me.

What I meant is that you don't have to go ballistic. You can simply communicate your difference of opinion.


I had something simple like "each time I go in and out the study, I trip over your shoes" in my mind. In my experience, it works and the person (being considerate and caring for how I feel), puts their shoes away. "

If the person was considerate, it wouldn't be a problem in the first place, and there would be nothing to be considerate about.

This shows that you believe that everyone has same standards and same things bother/don't bother them. Some people don't mind jumping over shoes, some do. Until you have pointed out to person who does not mind it, that you do, they are not aware of it, unless you expect them to be mind readers. In fact, expecting that is one of the root causes of problems in relationships. If the person was not considerate, they would not put their shoes away even after I have said something. They even apologised, which I in no way expected. Problem solved.


"Oh I see. Well if the smoke does bother you, then all you are doing, is not having guts to be assertive. If it does not bother you, why would you even care if someone stops it. "

I don't care. I just enjoy people watching and how they stress out is interesting.
I repeat "Smoke free restaurant in Ontario".

Don't care about what? The smoke? Fair enough, then this example does not apply to you. Then why even repeat "Smoke free restaurant in Ontario" - it is irrelevant to you. If you would be bothered by the smoke (and not everybody observes laws about it), then - what i said before.


"We have an unwritten agreement at work that people don't generally bring and heat up fish, because it really does stink up the place. Everybody IS happier that way. "

Guess you don't eat in restaurants that cook fish.

That is completely irrelevant to my point. Trust me, there are foods that people can heat up that would make you feel slightly nauseus, unless your smell cells are dead. On the same note, I see you have conveniently decided not to comment on my hypothetical scenario of hiring a stinky. Could that be because you would have to admit - that - God forbid - you would have to say something to them?


"except I don't ditch people because they don't put phones on chargers. There is tiny stuff, which I just let be, there is small repeated stuff, which I express myself about, there is big stuff, which I express myself about too, but more strongly, and then only there is break up stuff."

Sounds more like communicating that changing people to meet your standards is the issue.

Errr, yeah?? The whole thread is about communication. You cannot change anybody anyway. My point is that the phone situation is a minor conflict, which you may wish to communicate, if it becomes too much.


"Emailing someone for 11 years, long distance, is somewhat different from close everyday relationship, and hardly an illustration of how tolerant and chilled you are. I don't have conflicts with such people either "

Part of communicating is listening to what the other person actually said, rather than changing the meaning of what they said. Please read the misunderstood part of what I posted.

I have read what you have written and if I have misunderstood, it was not done on purpose. I have gone and re-read it again now. I still don't know what I have misunderstood. Feel free to point it out.


People can say "I feel" as much as they like, however, is they don't listen to the answers they get, they might as well save their breath.

I am not a fan of "I feel" statements, unless you are really talking about feelings. And of course I agree that listening is extremely important, otherwise indeed we are all just wasting our breath. However, even if you do listen carefully, you can still misunderstand, in which case, why not clarify?
 torquoise pixie
Joined: 11/20/2008
Msg: 137
I FEEL statement elicits better communication.. Has it worked for you?
Posted: 10/1/2010 8:46:46 AM

Please read the misunderstood part of what I posted.

I guess the part I might have misunderstood is that you are not in fact long distance friends? Sorry that was indeed somehow my imagination. So how often do you see these people face to face? I don't assume it is daily, which was my point.
Further part of my point was that it is easy to get along with people who have the same views as you, and more challenging to overcome differences in opinion. It seems to me that most of your friends are basically very similar to you and you choose not to associate with people who are different. That is fine, but not true for everyone, nor it is a good general recommendation. People who are different in my opinion provide more stimulating interaction and learning opportunities. That does not mean it is not nice to also experience highly validating relationships with those who are very similar to us. Both types of interaction have their value. There are of course relationships with a level of conflict I would avoid too. But for me it would not be set at the level at which it is set for you.
 moraima
Joined: 6/26/2005
Msg: 138
view profile
History
I FEEL statement elicits better communication.. Has it worked for you?
Posted: 10/1/2010 8:59:33 AM
"For the first couple of years, we communicated through gestures, looking up words in the dictionary, and acting things out. "

"I guess the part I might have misunderstood is that you are not in fact long distance friends? Sorry that was indeed somehow my imagination. So how often do you see these people face to face? I don't assume it is daily, which was my point."

Please don't dismiss my original idea/food for thought when I said it is possible to communicate when you don't speak the same language. You can indeed end up with a long term relationship with them.

No I don't see them daily, but do spend a good period of time living with them in the winter. The long term plan is that I will be living with them 6 months a year within the next two years. None of us are busy learning each other language. We find no reason to study language to communicate.
 torquoise pixie
Joined: 11/20/2008
Msg: 139
I FEEL statement elicits better communication.. Has it worked for you?
Posted: 10/1/2010 9:07:13 AM
moraima, I have not challenged or dismissed this "it is possible to communicate when you don't speak the same language."
I have done it myself with an Italian family, albeit only for a few days. Communication is more than just language. Ther was SOME communication anyway, otherwise you would be just staring at each other. Even gestures are communication. Still my point is that these people are very similar to you (you say you have the same outlook on life). Again, what I said in my previous post.
 motown cowgirl
Joined: 6/30/2010
Msg: 140
I FEEL statement elicits better communication.. Has it worked for you?
Posted: 10/1/2010 9:24:34 AM
i'm sorry, i just couldn't wade thru this entire thread. however i do have a comment based on the subject of the thread.

the basic model of neuro-linguistic programming says that people have different modalities and sub-modalities that they operate from. these modalities and sub-modalities describe how a person habitually relates to the world around him. the basic modalities are visual, auditory, and kinesthetic.

I FEEL is kinesthetic.

saying I FEEL is not necessarily going to elicit better communication. because saying I FEEL to a visual-dominant (I SEE) or auditory-dominant (I HEAR) person is not going to have as nearly much impact as saying I FEEL to a person who operates primarily in the kinesthetic mode.
 moraima
Joined: 6/26/2005
Msg: 141
view profile
History
I FEEL statement elicits better communication.. Has it worked for you?
Posted: 10/1/2010 10:22:23 AM
"This shows that you believe that everyone has same standards and same things bother/don't bother them. Some people don't mind jumping over shoes, some do. Until you have pointed out to person who does not mind it, that you do, they are not aware of it, unless you expect them to be mind readers. In fact, expecting that is one of the root causes of problems in relationships. If the person was not considerate, they would not put their shoes away even after I have said something. They even apologised, which I in no way expected. Problem solved."

I can either walk around them, or if I trip over them, put them outside. Problem solved.



"Oh I see. Well if the smoke does bother you, then all you are doing, is not having guts to be assertive. If it does not bother you, why would you even care if someone stops it. "


" Then why even repeat "Smoke free restaurant in Ontario" - it is irrelevant to you. If you would be bothered by the smoke (and not everybody observes laws about it), then - what i said before."

Why keep question it? I am trying to communicate that in Ontario, restaurant are smoke free. No one fails to observe the law. I don't know if is just that people decided to accept that restaurants are smoke free, or if the reason they don't do it is the multi thousand dollar fines involved.

"On the same note, I see you have conveniently decided not to comment on my hypothetical scenario of hiring a stinky. Could that be because you would have to admit - that - God forbid - you would have to say something to them?"

Sigh! Why would anyone hire anyone who came to an interview stinking? The stink would automatical speak for it's self. Some goes for meet and greets. If the personal stinks, they automatically remove themselves from the dating pool. It isn't my job to teach anyone to wash. I wouldn't appoint myself to correct them.


"except I don't ditch people because they don't put phones on chargers. There is tiny stuff, which I just let be, there is small repeated stuff, which I express myself about, there is big stuff, which I express myself about too, but more strongly, and then only there is break up stuff."

Sounds more like communicating that changing people to meet your standards is the issue.

Errr, yeah?? The whole thread is about communication. You cannot change anybody anyway. My point is that the phone situation is a minor conflict, which you may wish to communicate, if it becomes too much."

You are welcome to handle communication in the way you see fit.

I prefer not to associate with people who require much communication to make them aware that they are high maintenance in the communication department.

Different ways of living life for different people.

"People who are different in my opinion provide more stimulating interaction and learning opportunities. "

Friends who are similiar to me have different opinions than me on many things. We accept the others opinions without a need to change it. We understand each other and listen and accept what the other person is saying.

We just don't feel the need to have rules of conduct that they other person has to live by. Bascially we don't do things that would bother the group. Some smoke while others don't. The smokers remove themselves from the group when they go for a cigarette. No need for anyone to ask them to do it. This is the way it has always been even before the smoking ban. We consider it (and situations like it) to be being considerate of other people. Now, if a new person joined the group who tried to smoke, they would be asked to smoke in the smoking area. Recently, we were standing outside a restaurant and I started that my vehicle has never been smoked in. I had already offer a ride home to one of the ladies. She got in my vehicle with the cigarette she had just lit. Of course I said "this is a no smoking vehicle", and she tossed her cigarette out. My guess is that she just wasn't thinking because she smokes in her own vehicle, and is rarely in my vehicle. I didn't need to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

" Especially since they see you pick it up after them day after day after day, without letting them know it bothers you. "

If they don't get the message but my through their shoes outside, then they and their shoes are too high maintenance to be welcome in my home. I get that children may do this, but adults leaving shoes for people to trip over. If this is typical of their behaviour, then people have tripped over their shoes before, and they haven't learned from it.
 torquoise pixie
Joined: 11/20/2008
Msg: 142
I FEEL statement elicits better communication.. Has it worked for you?
Posted: 10/1/2010 10:35:09 AM

I can either walk around them, or if I trip over them, put them outside. Problem solved.

No it isn't. Say it keeps happening again and again and again. Not because the person who leaves them there is inconsiderate, but because they have no idea it bothers you. Especially since they see you pick it up after them day after day after day, without letting them know it bothers you. If you simply say something, the problem is really solved, as they start putting the shoes away. I did try the walking around and picking up and stuck with it for a while. Did not work for me. More peaceful this way.


"Oh I see. Well if the smoke does bother you, then all you are doing, is not having guts to be assertive. If it does not bother you, why would you even care if someone stops it. "


" Then why even repeat "Smoke free restaurant in Ontario" - it is irrelevant to you. If you would be bothered by the smoke (and not everybody observes laws about it), then - what i said before."

Why keep question it? I am trying to communicate that in Ontario, restaurant are smoke free. No one fails to observe the law. I don't know if is just that people decided to accept that restaurants are smoke free, or if the reason they don't do it is the multi thousand dollar fines involved.

All you are saying is that you have not encountered it. Which is great. It does happen in places, sometimes. Forget it if you find it irrelevant, I was merely using it as an example so that the debate is not so hypothetical, but you are convinced this cannot happen in your world.


"On the same note, I see you have conveniently decided not to comment on my hypothetical scenario of hiring a stinky. Could that be because you would have to admit - that - God forbid - you would have to say something to them?"

Sigh! Why would anyone hire anyone who came to an interview stinking? The stink would automatical speak for it's self. Some goes for meet and greets. If the personal stinks, they automatically remove themselves from the dating pool. It isn't my job to teach anyone to wash. I wouldn't appoint myself to correct them.

moraine, you have pointed out I did not listen to you very well, well now I am turning the tables. I have never said they came to the interview stinking. That started only when they were hired.

Clearly you are such a good people reader that you expect absolutely every potential problem with the person beforehand. Amazing. Or you ditch them for really minuscule stuff that would only need one sentence to address. Or you would slave away picking up their shoes forever. I agree - different ways for different people.
 Discerning Virtuosa
Joined: 6/10/2008
Msg: 143
view profile
History
I FEEL statement elicits better communication.. Has it worked for you?
Posted: 10/1/2010 10:47:48 AM
Even though it doesn't work with everyone, I prefer to use a gentle approach like "I feel...........". If you are approaching a sensitive subject with the wrong person they can still completely overlook wording and tone, projecting their anger onto you. Take for example a man who has a low opinion of women in general, to say " I feel I would respond better to more foreplay", and a guy will say "you women are always b!tching".
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