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 AUTHOR
 Island home
Joined: 7/5/2009
Msg: 23
How can I believe in - Page 2 of 2    (1, 2)
salamander000

this thread reminds me of this song runs through my mind with frequency

How can I go forward when I don't know which way I'm facing?
How can I go forward when I don't know which way to turn?
How can I go forward into something I'm not sure of?
Oh no, oh no
How can I have feeling when I don't know if it's a feeling?
How can I feel something if I just don't know how to feel?
How can I have feelings when my feelings have always been denied?
Oh no, oh no

You know life can be long
And you got to be so strong
And the world is so tough
Sometimes I feel I've had enough

How can I give love when I don't know what it is I'm giving?
How can I give love when I just don't know how to give?
How can I give love when love is something I ain't never had?
Oh no, oh no

You know life can be long
You've got to be so strong
And the world she is tough
Sometimes I feel I've had enough

How can we go forward when we don't know which way we're facing?
How can we go forward when we don't know which way to turn?
How can we go forward into something we're not sure of?
Oh no, oh no


Would you know what the title of this song is and where I may gain a copy so that I can hear it preferably on the web?
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 24
How can I believe in -
Posted: 9/25/2010 5:38:49 AM
Maybe I should ask it this way - is knowing the same thing as believing?
And is "knowing", whatever that means to you, voluntary as well?


Well, some will tell you they "know" there is a God. They'll tell you they "know" that ghosts are real. They'll tell you they "know" that blacks are inferior to whites. They'll tell you they "know" that women should have their clitoris excised in order to keep her faithful to her husband.

But are these things actually true?

Real knowledge - that the sun will comes up, the truth of the pythagorean theorum, that the Earth is round, General Relativity - is all accepted because it is demonstrable time and time again. Real knowledge is confirmed, verified, unbiased.

Belief, on the other hand, can be had whether there is demonstrable truth to the proposition or not.
 x_file
Joined: 6/25/2006
Msg: 26
How can I believe in -
Posted: 9/25/2010 10:07:57 AM

To me, believing something is real, is synonymous with knowing it to be real. Knowing - meaning the evidence has reached the tipping point that in my mind that I call "knowledge".


Do you know who Gettier is?

He wrote 3 pages in philosophy - that was the whole of his contribution to philosophy. And he showed how a "true justified belief" cannot be knowledge.

Make sure you call a thing by its right name.


From what I read, it seems most people use the term more in the sense of thinking something is "likely" to be real.


Basically.


For example - we are waiting at a bus stop. Someone asks "is the bus coming soon?"
Being familiar with history and schedules, I might say "I believe it is". Because that is my "guess". A "probable" outcome. Obviously - it's not certain. If pressed, I might admit that I don't know if it will be soon.


Well explained.


That's the thing - in my vocabulary I say I "know" the Pythagorean theorem is true. I've done the math, and done it enough times that the tipping point of evidence has been reached. Not only that, but I challenge you to believe it is NOT true. If it is VOLUNTARY, you should be able to decide it is not true.


I know what the problem is.

By voluntarily, you mean something like: I have a belief and a "truth-switch" to that believe and I can flip the switch "as I please".

That's ALL true. But only from the "ability or power to do so" perceptive.

Here is the punch line: The rational mind DOES NOT allow for such "as I please" changes to a belief - such a mind has the nagging awareness that by changing a belief "as it pleases" it commits an error. Lunatics do not have this limitation/advantage.

Before I can flip the truth-switch of a belief I require reason. Therefore, even though I voluntarily reason, and voluntarily flip the switch AFTER I reason, I do so in order... I first reason, then flip the switch. And thus I cannot "just flip the switch" as I please.

Now this is NOT always true. Meaning, I do find myself in circumstances where I must do as the lunatic - just flip the switch. The thing is, by this point, I am in a land where reason can no longer serve me. And perhaps at this point, the only difference between me and a lunatic is that I'm aware of what I'm doing.

It is also not truth in another sense. For example, when I do thought experiments, I "set" the beliefs or flip their switches, and THEN reason. I have no problem doing so because reason guards the entire process... for it was reason that began it.
 Island home
Joined: 7/5/2009
Msg: 27
How can I believe in -
Posted: 9/25/2010 7:18:27 PM

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wq7jLEnZw6s

You'll recognise it immediately, I am sure.


The recognition was vague
The written words aided the appreceation
Thanks
 lateā„¢
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 28
How can I believe in -
Posted: 9/25/2010 10:40:39 PM

...personal responsibility for my beliefs....


The point of that other thread wasn't that a certain belief (or non belief) was claimed, it was that it was arrived at without reason.

As far as "beliefs" are concerned, ...how they are arrived at says more about those who hold them (or not), than whether the belief is approved of or not.

I thought this was obvious.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 29
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History
How can I believe in -
Posted: 9/26/2010 1:11:55 AM
Sounds to me as though you ran into a combination of semantic misunderstanding, and religious fervor.
As for my own experience with belief, I have carefully looked myself over, and having been brought up in a scientific world, by VERY logical parents, I parse out what is belief, and what is provable knowledge, into two separate categories. I would tend to agree more with you, that I do not CHOOSE to believe something, at least not out of the blue. I can DISCOVER that I believe something. It's actually very much like love, in that respect...I can't CHOOSE to love someone, or to be attracted to someone, I can only DISCOVER that I am.
I can only choose what I want to DO about what I feel. I think the same is true about religious beliefs.
I didn't see whatever forum interchange you describe, but what you say about it sounds like a semantic argument getting out of hand. The daughters would more accurately have been said to have DECLARED that they did not believe, rather than that they DECIDED NOT TO. You were trying to suggest that as the case, but the way you put it made it sound as though you were the VICTIM of nonbelief, rather than that you came to RECOGNIZE that you were not a believer. That set off the folks who accused you of refusing responsibility, which was NOT the case at all, you just expressed yourself in a way that sounded like that to them.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 30
view profile
History
How can I believe in -
Posted: 9/26/2010 1:38:12 AM
x file: I read the Gettier paper, and I think you misrepresented it slightly. He didn't prove that " a "true justified belief" cannot be knowledge," he was showing that the COINCIDENCE of two actually unrelated things being true, did not mean there was a logical connection between them, and that one 'proved' the other. I personally thought he did this rather badly, as he was using words like "justified" , and "knowing," without an agreed upon definition of those words being established first.
 x_file
Joined: 6/25/2006
Msg: 31
How can I believe in -
Posted: 9/26/2010 7:34:50 PM


He didn't prove that " a "true justified belief" cannot be knowledge," he was showing that the COINCIDENCE of two actually unrelated things being true, did not mean there was a logical connection between them, and that one 'proved' the other.


Hmm... I must have read a different paper.

Instead of "things" apply the logic to beliefs. If I have a belief and it is true, but not because of the evidence, or reason, but because by coincidence, then that belief cannot be knowledge.



I personally thought he did this rather badly, as he was using words like "justified" , and "knowing," without an agreed upon definition of those words being established first.


That is because those words were already defined else where - in the "true justified belief" account of knowledge. Gettier was simply rebutting it.
 shakeitupbaby2012
Joined: 8/12/2010
Msg: 32
How can I believe in -
Posted: 9/27/2010 10:42:39 AM

Well, some will tell you they "know" there is a God. They'll tell you they "know" that ghosts are real. They'll tell you they "know" that blacks are inferior to whites. They'll tell you they "know" that women should have their clitoris excised in order to keep her faithful to her husband.

But are these things actually true?

Real knowledge - that the sun will comes up, the truth of the pythagorean theorum, that the Earth is round, General Relativity - is all accepted because it is demonstrable time and time again. Real knowledge is confirmed, verified, unbiased.

Belief, on the other hand, can be had whether there is demonstrable truth to the proposition or not.


Perhaps this is a scientific approach or thought on the subject; I tend to see it as a bit more of an abstract thought, but I will blend that with a scientific viewpoint to try to catch my thoughts and make them more understood to the scientific community:

I believe that Plato once said that a statement must be justified, true , and believed to be considered knowledge. And what is belief? I see it as being a supportive statement, an act of confidence in someone or something ( confidence in truth and existence, etc.); a conviction- as in an assertion of trust, and understanding or a non-cognitive awareness that stems so deeply within one's gut that it is felt to be true.

In your example of knowing things to be true, for instance,,,let's take your example of a husband and wife staying sexually active-meeting each other's needs- as one way of maintaining a faithful relationship. If this works for them, is that not real belief- to them- that this exercise works? Does that not then become their own personal knowledge, as well as shared knowledge for others? Does it have to be 'real' knowledge to be knowledge? I personally don't think so. I feel that knowledge is made up of both both cognitive thought and personal belief, and that cognition, or cognitive processes, can be natural or artificial, conscious or unconscious. Cognitive (thought), and belief, can be cerebral, emotional, intellectual or subjective IMO. So I see a blended value in both. You may see both in scientific terms- I see them in 'real' terms, as they apply to life from my viewpoint. It's interesting how we all see things in this life.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 33
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History
How can I believe in -
Posted: 9/27/2010 12:17:44 PM
"Perhaps if people took more responsibility for what they believed, they might take more responsibility in what they do with that belief."

nowsucksless responds.."Are you friggin kidding me!?!
Go ahead. CHOOSE to believe that you can fly over a cliff and make the leap. Yeah, ignorance fought. Darwin +1."

Some beliefs are leaps of faith. Sometimes you have to belive things to see them. Beliefs can range from the superstitious to the physical where one believes they can do something enough that they CAN do it. I dreamt of jumping off a cliff and flying since I was a kid. As I grew older, there came the opportunity and means to realize that dream and believe I could do it. I flew off cliffs thousands of times with only a couple of incidents of hitting the ground or trees. I have lots of friends who still kiss the clouds because they believe they can jump off cliffs and fly.
 x_file
Joined: 6/25/2006
Msg: 34
How can I believe in -
Posted: 9/27/2010 9:36:17 PM

Some beliefs are leaps of faith. Sometimes you have to belive things to see them.


Why is it "believing some to see it" a leap of faith? Why is something natural, such as the exercise of the imagination, a leap of faith?

What about all those "leaps of faith" that ended in "failure" or "no where"? What's that called, "failure of faith"?



Beliefs can range from the superstitious to the physical where one believes they can do something enough that they CAN do it.


What about the opposite? What about the cases where someone believes something false to the point that it cripples the person, it make him suffer, or costs him his life?

Here too credit must be given to faith. And so, I ask, what good is faith for?



I dreamt of jumping off a cliff and flying since I was a kid.


Your dream has significance far beyond you simply jumping off a cliff and flying.

Your dream has probably more to do with courage (and thus fear) and little or nothing to do with flying. It's the mind state(s) of your dream that is/are important, and not the content.


I have lots of friends who still kiss the clouds because they believe they can jump off cliffs and fly.


No, not because they believe, but because they have courage... or enjoy it, or are adrenaline junkies, etc..
 arwen52
Joined: 3/13/2008
Msg: 35
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History
How can I believe in -
Posted: 9/28/2010 5:37:39 PM
Well, I suppose tomorrow I could decide to believe in the Easter Bunny but I don't think I'd be able to convince myself. Neither can I convince myself that an elephant-headed deity will, if I believe in Him and pray to Him, remove barriers in my life.

I'm with you. Belief is not necessarily a choice.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 36
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History
How can I believe in -
Posted: 9/28/2010 6:25:34 PM
I tried to differenciate between the leaf of faith of religion and other leaps, and the attainable, and real. One is given to faith of one kind, the other given to the attainale, quantifiable and doable. Some folks jump off cliffs, denying basic health care to their kids with prayer only faith. Some others rely on quantifiable physical laws, engineering, and trust in government standards to not kill people. "Faith", "trust", "beliefs", etc, are just another few words for "government", the act of people coming together to say what is right or wrong in how we treat one another, manipulate one another, or what is acceptable in screwing the neighbors and friends.

My leap of faith, in flying and community, involves throwing questions out there that cannot be honestly answered without someone losing face and having to be honest. Too many times people are being screwed over by outside forces with no concern for folks. Those that believe in simple and workable things like community, sustainability, clean water and air, and really bad school plays, have far more a right to their reality than the corporations who wish to poison them all, make them vote against themselves because of blatant manipulation, and good ol boy money deals.

I have been there with small towns who believed in something beyond the friggin lies being sold by hypsters of many colours. They kicked azzzzz...and believed they could.
 x_file
Joined: 6/25/2006
Msg: 37
How can I believe in -
Posted: 9/29/2010 9:23:01 AM

I tried to differenciate between the leaf of faith of religion and other leaps, and the attainable, and real.


I understand. A leap of faith made possible by ignorance is not the same as a leap of faith made possible by reason. A leap of faith made possible by reason is called inference. A leap of faith made possible by ignorance is called, well, faith.



"Faith", "trust", "beliefs", etc, are just another few words for "government", the act of people coming together to say what is right or wrong in how we treat one another, manipulate one another, or what is acceptable in screwing the neighbors and friends.


No, those words are not synonyms for "government". Those words are labels for aspects/properties of a human.

And right and wrong is NOT a matter of consensus. No matter what the consensus on "what will happen when you jump of a cliff without any safety equipment" is, doing so has consequences completely independent of consensus... and thus belief, trust, faith, reason, etc..

Nature does conform to the consensus of men, but men conform to the ways of nature.



I have been there with small towns who believed in something beyond the friggin lies being sold by hypsters of many colours. They kicked azzzzz...and believed they could.


It's a shame they have to "believe"! I'd think they want to "know".

How can such people be sure that by going beyond certain lies, they do not enter, and begin to advocate/serve other lies?
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