Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Stating odds of life at Gliese 581g "100%" optimistic      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 26
view profile
History
Stating odds of life at Gliese 581g 100% optimisticPage 2 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)
New evidence shows that Darwin was wrong..that evolution can flow backwards.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andy-borowitz/palins-evolution-into-odo_b_759297.html

We see it on this forum frequently.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 27
view profile
History
Stating odds of life at Gliese 581g 100% optimistic
Posted: 10/18/2010 5:09:28 PM
Paul..Thanks for being the poster child for far right wingnuts who don't have any sense of irony or satire. As soon as the Huffpo think came up, you refused to even ponder the humor of it all. It was an Andy Borowitz post that they reposted. I do have admiration for Arianna, the go-to feminist most loved to be hated by angry white old guys among us. Have seen many other forums where the mere mention of her name invoked small ball syndrome and much blathering. Oops..did not mean any sort of ad hominim...I was talking about someone else.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 28
view profile
History
Stating odds of life at Gliese 581g 100% optimistic
Posted: 10/18/2010 6:01:17 PM
You don't know Borowitz or his background in an illustrious line of satirists. Nothing to do with Arianna other than she posted his contribution today like hundreds of thousands of others did.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Borowitz

And YES, I know of Arriana, through the years, when she was both conservative and liberal. I don't know why she is such a connundrum for the far right these days other than her sex. Lots of conservatives have flipped over to the side of truth, but she seems to be a mysoginist magnet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arriana_Huffington

Tell us more about why this woman should be feared for featuring truth and humor on her website.

And I would love to see some compelling and honest proof that there is intelligent life on earth.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 29
Stating odds of life at Gliese 581g 100% optimistic
Posted: 10/19/2010 4:57:05 AM
Andy, yours and Paul's posts read like the usual attempts by would-be creationists/IDers propping the back door open to the mystical explanations for naturalistic phenomenon. As demanding as they are for proof of the naturalistic explanation, of course, they are frequently intellectually dishonest enough to not expect the same standard of proof for the "guiding hand of God."


Now we have black people and we have pink people…you know where I am going with this don’t you! Are black people a different species? Are Asians, Aboriginies? Suddenly there’s going to be arms flung in the air and all sorts of accusations.


Godwin's Law alert! Just sayin'.


Now Stargazer linked an ongoing experiment to demonstrate evolution, my interpretation of this is that evolution has not occurred here, it is a built in mechanism that has long been known about with E.coli and many other ‘bugs’. This discovery however, could be significant in finding out why bacteria become ‘super bugs’ ie resistant to penicillin, being able to switch Genes on and off. But the ‘fact’ remains that the gene was there in the first place, no ‘new’ material was introduced or lost, so to me, no demonstration of evolution. To other's this is clear evidence.


How is what they showed not evolution in action? Evolution is about adaptation. That means genes change and that change results in a particular survival advantage. No "new" information was required. For instance, one of the 12 streams or 'tribes' of bacteria in the Lenskie experiment developed the ability to metabolise citrate. They noted a definitive change in the DNA of that group that allowed them to do that. Furthermore, they went back and cultured past samples to find the point where that change occurred to verify that, in fact, an adaptive change had occurred.

There are innumerable other examples of evolution in action, both in modern times and throughout the fossil record. True, there are many theories for how evolution occurs, but nothing that actually disputes evolution as the overarching mechanism for species adaptation and change. Indeed, of the mechanisms you mention, it is most likely that the truth is a synthesis of the group since one can see how each might come into play at different times. If you are truly interested in the subject of evolution, there are many books by the likes of Dawkins and Jerry Coyne. If you don't like the atheistic slant many of them take, there's even Ken Miller, a practicing Catholic who has no problems with the both his views on the existence of a deity and evolution as a mechanism for change.

Which sadly has nothing to do with my OP.
 slybandit
Joined: 7/10/2006
Msg: 30
Stating odds of life at Gliese 581g 100% optimistic
Posted: 10/19/2010 6:33:36 AM
Oh, somebody had to say it. It's a debate on intelligent life on other planets.

Vogt's 100% sure there's life on Gliese 581g, hey we could use his help down here.
I'm not 100% sure there's intelligent life inside the DC Beltway.
Maybe he can help us find it.

We've got an economic crisis, and no one seems to have a plan that does not involve (1) billions of dollars in handouts to the bankers that largely caused it, and various other failing industries, like carmakers (Democratic version);
(2) Jesus coming back to help out (Republican version);
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 31
Stating odds of life at Gliese 581g 100% optimistic
Posted: 10/19/2010 8:39:39 AM

I'm not 100% sure there's intelligent life inside the DC Beltway.


We have the same problem on a certain 'hill' in Ottawa.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 32
Stating odds of life at Gliese 581g 100% optimistic
Posted: 10/19/2010 12:54:52 PM
Where I have a problem with those that hold out the theory of evolution as the ONLY way to explain how/why/etc., is just because they have some of the truths in the middle of the timeline, and not all of them, without knowing the beginning and the end of the timeline, they feel confident enough to proclaim that this THEORY is now FACT.


You have a dead body with a knife plunged into it's chest, you don't need to know what the victim had for breakfast March 13, 1985 to be able to deduce the murder now, do you.

As has been pointed out, the evidence for biological evolution is legion and solid. Evolution happens. Trying to back door the Magic Sky Man with prevarication, sophistry and assorted other forms of intellectual dishonesty as the Creation/ID crowd is wont to do is not going to change that reality.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 33
Stating odds of life at Gliese 581g 100% optimistic
Posted: 10/19/2010 3:33:31 PM
And I thought that my attempt at an analogy was a stretch...............


Actually, it didn't go far enough. A more accurate representation would be to say that, to solve the murder, you would have to have the individual conception stories of both the murder victim and the perpetrator.


The part you refuse to consider is that unless you know HOW it all started, all you are doing is looking a relatively small piece of the puzzle.


And you're presuming I haven't considered it and realized the sophistry this "argument" represents. Of course biological evolution is only a small part of the overall picture. But are you seriously trying to suggest that we have to roll in cosmology and particle physics along with chemistry, biology and paleontology? Should we require the same of a physician before he employs a new treatment? How about an engineer do so before introducing a new model car?


You do know the story about how three people were blindfolded, and given different parts of an animal to feel, and each came up with a very different conclusion as to what it was....................


Actually, I do. The animal was an elephant. Clearly, you missed my point about Creationists/IDers demanding an level of proof from science they are not willing to apply to their own position.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 34
view profile
History
Stating odds of life at Gliese 581g 100% optimistic
Posted: 10/19/2010 5:35:23 PM
There is nothing honest about creationists/IDers pretenting that dinosaurs existed while Adam and Eve were having consensual sex with their kids...or Noah and his gang participating in repopulation via said incest.

There is much science to support the diversity of life on this planet from the most hostile environs, to the most supportive. The diversity of such life forms in between give credence to the probability that many forms of life can exist outside of our current norms of acceptance. Just 100 years ago, scientists would have scoffed at 90% of today's knowledge and understanding. That in itself shows a profound ability to evolve with our small brains. To use Fox News Logic, they can offer that knowledge as proof that our God/s have scammed us and throw doubt on gravity, the flat earth, pollution, and diminishing returns of investment in education. The later works quite effectively when pushy/preachy doubt becomes a religion in itself. Fox is a religon.

The studies of extra-terrestrial influences that hit the Earth show that most of, or many of the basic building blocks of life are universal, have come here over vast epochs, are still bouncing around the big bang, and are not that all uncommon in this expanding universe. Small brains are probably universal as well and the trend toward moving past that lends credence to intelligent life somewhere. Obviously not welcomed in this part of the known universe.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 35
view profile
History
Stating odds of life at Gliese 581g 100% optimistic
Posted: 10/19/2010 6:37:28 PM
Paul k...I live deeply amongst the anti-evolutionists. I know first hand what "believers" believe nearly daily when they try to chide me into their churches/beliefs/and armed bastions against those who don't believe enough or rightly. There is some really scarey shi-ite going on in fundie land, and it has little to do with education and everything to do with indoctrination and challenging science and knowledge. I agree that class sizes matter, but it has more to do with quality of education, vs. who can screw up text books via intimidation and bullying.

Those who were "created" will always be threatened by those who continue to evolve. Ne'ar the twain shall meet but on bloody battlefields. The "special ones" of their gods have a long, dark history of wiping out reason in their wakes. And yes...I know these folks and their designs for the rest of us.

http://creationmuseum.org/whats-here/

http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/02/26/liberals.atheists.sex.intelligence/

1.The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality. – George Bernard Shaw
2. Faith means not wanting to know what is true. – Friedrich Nietzsche
3. I believe in God, only I spell it Nature. – Frank Lloyd Wright
4. We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes. – Gene Roddenberry
5. To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today. - Isaac Asimov
6. A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows. – Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain)
7. Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. – Seneca the Younger
8. Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. – Anonymous
9. Not only is there no god, but try getting a plumber on weekends. – Woody Allen
10. If I were not an atheist, I would believe in a God who would choose to save people on the basis of the totality of their lives and not the pattern of their words. I think he would prefer an honest and righteous atheist to a TV preacher whose every word is God, God, God, and whose every deed is foul, foul, foul. – Isaac Asimov
11. Belief in the supernatural reflects a failure of the imagination. – Edward Abbey
12. With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. – Steven Weinberg
13. I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence. – Doug McLeod
14. The world holds two classes of men – intelligent men without religion, and religious men without intelligence. – Abu’l‐Ala al Ma’arri
15. Since the Bible and the church are obviously mistaken in telling us where we came from, how can we trust them to tell us where we are going? – Anonymous
16. I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. – Susan B. Anthony
17. The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike. – Delos B. McKown
18. Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer. – Anonymous
19. Atheism leaves a man to sense, to philosophy, to natural piety, to laws, to reputation; all of which may be guides to an outward moral virtue, even if religion vanished; but religious superstition dismounts all these and erects an absolute monarchy in the minds of men. – Francis Bacon
20. The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully. – Richard Dawkins
21. A God who kept tinkering with the universe was absurd; a God who interfered with human freedom and creativity was tyrant. If God is seen as a self in a world of his own, an ego that relates to a thought, a cause separate from its effect. he becomes a being, not Being itself. An omnipotent, all‐knowing tyrant is not so different from earthly dictators who make everything and everybody mere cogs in the machine which they controlled. An atheism that rejects such a God is amply justified. – Karen Armstrong
22. It is not as in the Bible, that God created man in his own image. But, on the contrary, man created God in his own image. – Ludwig Feuerbach
23. People ask me what I think about that woman priest thing. What, a woman priest? Women priests. Great, great. Now there’s priests of both sexes I don’t listen to. – Bill Hicks
24. All the biblical miracles will at last disappear with the progress of science. – Matthew Arnold
25. Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the Creator of human intelligence. – Anonymous
26. Be thankful that you have a life, and forsake your vain and presumptuous desire for a second one. – Richard Dawkins
27. What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof. – Christopher Hitchens
28. In Christianity neither morality nor religion come into contact with reality at any point. – Friedrich Nietzsche
29. It will yet be the proud boast of women that they never contributed a line to the Bible. – George W. Foote
30. On the first day, man created God. – Anonymous
31. I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. – Stephen Roberts
32. You do not need the Bible to justify love, but no better tool has been invented to justify hate. – Richard A. Weatherwax
33. What’s “God”? Well, you know, when you want something really bad and you close your eyes and you wish for it? God’s the guy that ignores you. – Steve Buscemi (From the movie “The Island”)
34. As far as I can tell from studying the scriptures, all you do in heaven is pretty much just sit around all day and praise the Lord. I don’t know about you, but I think that after the first, oh, I don’t know, 50,000,000 years of that I’d start to get a little bored. – Rick Reynolds
35. Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish. – Anonymous
36. Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color. – Don Hirschberg
37. God should be executed for crimes against humanity. – Bryan Emmanuel Gutierrez
38. To say that atheism requires faith is as dim-witted as saying that disbelief in pixies or leprechauns takes faith. Even if Einstein himself told me there was an elf on my shoulder, I would still ask for proof and I wouldn’t be wrong to ask. – Geoff Mather
39. I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it. – Mark Twain
40. Of all religions the Christian is without doubt the one which should inspire tolerance most, although up to now the Christians have been the most intolerant of all men. – Voltaire
41. And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence. – Bertrand Russell
42. Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? – Epicurus
43. I’m a polyatheist – there are many gods I don’t believe in. – Dan Fouts
44. If it turns out that there is a God, I don’t think that he’s evil. But the worst that you can say about him is that basically he’s an underachiever. – Woody Allen
45. A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it. – David Stevens
46. Men rarely (if ever) manage to dream up a God superior to themselves. Most Gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. – Robert A Heinlein
47. I refuse to prove that I exist,” says God, “for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing. – Douglas Adams
48. It ain’t the parts of the Bible that I can’t understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand. – Mark Twain
49. He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. – William Drummond
50. Remember, Jesus would rather constantly shame gays than let orphans have a family. – Steven Colbert
51. Which is it, is man one of God’s blunders or is God one of man’s? – Friedrich Nietzsche
52. Religion does three things quite effectively: Divides people, Controls people, Deludes people. – Carlespie Mary Alice McKinney
53. Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea. – Anonymous
54. When a man is freed of religion, he has a better chance to live a normal and wholesome life. – Sigmund Freud
55. They felt that science would be corrosive to religious belief and they were worried about it. Damn it, I think they were right. It is corrosive to religious belief and it’s a good thing. – Steven Weinberg
56. Take from the church the miraculous, the supernatural, the incomprehensible, the unreasonable, the impossible, the unknowable, the absurd, and nothing but a vacuum remains. – Robert G. Ingersoll
57. History teaches us that no other cause has brought more death than the word of god. – Giulian Buzila
58. Atheism is a non-prophet organization. – George Carlin
59. We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. – Richard Dawkins
60. A believer states everything must have a creator but fail to say how he was created. – Anonymous
61. “There are no atheists in foxholes” isn’t an argument against atheism, it’s an argument against foxholes. – James Morrow
62. People will then often say, ‘But surely it’s better to remain an Agnostic just in case?’ This, to me, suggests such a level of silliness and muddle that I usually edge out of the conversation rather than get sucked into it. (If it turns out that I’ve been wrong all along, and there is in fact a god, and if it further turned out that this kind of legalistic, cross-your-fingers-behind-your-back, Clintonian hair-splitting impressed him, then I think I would choose not to worship him anyway.) – Douglas Adams
63. Properly read, the bible is the most potent force for Atheism ever conceived. – Isaac Asimov
64. If all the Christians who have called other Christians “not really a Christian” were to vanish, there’d be no Christians left. – Anonymous
65. An atheist is a man who has no invisible means of support. – John Buchan
66. Gods dont kill people. People with Gods kill people. – David Viaene
67. If God were suddenly condemned to live the life which He has inflicted upon men, He would kill Himself. – Alexandre Dumas
68. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make when in the presence of religious dogma. – Sam Harris
69. I don’t believe in God because I don’t believe in Mother Goose – Clarence Darrow
70. No philosophy, no religion, has ever brought so glad a message to the world as this good news of Atheism. – Annie Wood Besant
71. I refuse to believe in a god who is the primary cause of conflict in the world, preaches racism, sexism, homophobia, and ignorance, and then sends me to hell if I’m ‘bad’. – Mike Fuhrman
72. Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. – Frater Ravus
73. Believing there is no God gives me more room for belief in family, people, love, truth, beauty, sex, Jell-o, and all the other things I can prove and that make this life the best life I will ever have. – Penn Jillette
74. Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power but absolute power is corrupt only in the hands of the absolutely faithful. – Anonymous
75. Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense. – Chapman Cohen
76. The inspiration of the bible depends on the ignorance of the person who reads it. – Robert G. Ingersoll
77. When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion. – Robert Pirsig
78. I wonder who got the shit job of scouring the planet for the 15000 species of butterfly or the 8800 species of ant they eventually took on board Noah’s Ark. But at least we got that magical rainbow for all their trouble. – Azura Skye
79. I have no need for religion, I have a conscience. – Anonymous
80. Man has always required an explanation for all of those things in the world he did not understand. If an explanation was not available, he created one. – Jim Crawford
81. I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. – Richard Dawkins
82. What has been Christianity’s fruits? Superstition, Bigotry and Persecution. – James Madison
83. The characters and events depicted in the damn bible are fictitious. Any similarity to actual persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental. – Penn and Teller
84. If god is the alpha and the omega. The begining and the end, knows what has passed and what is to come, like it states in the bible, why do people pray and think it will make any difference. – Mark Fairclough
85. The finality of death is the coldest truth one must face. Religion makes the perfect distraction. – Anonymous
86. Religion is the opiate of the masses. – Karl Marx
87. If God created the world, then who created god? and who created whoever created god? So somewhere along the line something had to just be there. So why can’t we just skip the idea of god and go straight to earth? – Ryan Hanson
88. If we expect God to subscribe to one religion at the exclusion of all the others, then we should expect damnation as a matter of chance. This should give Christians pause when expounding their religious beliefs, but it does not. – Sam Harris
89. Atheists will celebrate life, while you’re in church celebrating death. – Anonymous
90. Animals do not have gods, they are smarter than that. – Ronnie Snow
91. I have observed that the world has suffered far less from ignorance than from pretensions to knowledge. It is not skeptics or explorers but fanatics and ideologues who menace decency and progress. No agnostic ever burned anyone at the stake or tortured a pagan, a heretic, or an unbeliever. – Daniel Boorstin
92. I have never seen the slightest scientific proof of the religious ideas of heaven and hell, of future life for individuals, or of a personal God. So far as religion of the day is concerned, it is a damned fake… Religion is all bunk. – Thomas Edison
93. Fundamentalism, of any type, due to its prerequisite lack of intelligent thought, could prove to be the worst weapon of mass destruction, of all. – David J. Constable
94. To really be free, You need to be free in the mind. – Alexander Loutsis
95. Most religions prophecy the end of the world and then consistently work together to ensure that these prophecies come true. – Anonymous
96. Jesus hardly made the greatest sacrifice. He knew he would be resurrected anyway. – Anonymous
97. Religion is like a virus that affects the behaviour of its host in such a way as to propagate itself further. – Jack Pritchard
98. Religions are like pills, which must be swallowed whole without chewing. – Anonymous
99. Today’s religion will be the future’s mythology. Both believed at one time by many; but proved wrong by the clever. – Steven Crocker
100. The Bible – A Fairytale book of rules brainwashing millions. Obliviously used to help create war, kill, hate, judge and discriminate. – Anonymous
101. Isn’t it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? – Douglas Adams
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 36
view profile
History
Stating odds of life at Gliese 581g 100% optimistic
Posted: 10/20/2010 4:59:08 AM
Yeah, you're right Paul...that came across is overly broad, when I was more referring to the believers I encounter that have disdain for science, push creationism, hate the Beatitudes, and would love for Olde Testament Theocracy to rule our government, schools and the world.

I have many friends of the various sects and faiths who are also quite wary of and weary of those "believers" of the pushy, aggressive sort. They give Christianity a bad name and push people away from the faith and even real and practicing Christians are tainted by the Theocrats and IDiots.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 37
Stating odds of life at Gliese 581g 100% optimistic
Posted: 10/20/2010 5:24:11 AM

the point I keep trying to make is that some "scientists" declare a whole spectrum of issues as fact, when in fact, they only have positive proof on a part of that spectrum, without having proved the rest. Like I said before, adaptation is fact. Beyond that...............


The point is invalid, plain and simple. Of course all theories in science, including evolution, are provisional. If you read anything on evolution by evolutionary scientists, you would see them acknowledge that very fact. However, we can make reasonable conclusions based on the evidence we have. Evolution is accepted because evolution works as the most reasonable and likely explanation there is. But feel free to offer a viable and evidencially supportable alternative.

The fact is simply this: you don't have to go all the way back to the big bang to prove biological evolution is valid. It is an unreasonable standard of proof for which you've offered absolutely no justification for. That's like asking a judge to recite the entire history of common, property, criminal and corporate law to justify a single ruling.

Okay, let's do a simple comparison:

Evolution: the development of new species from prior existing species through a natural progression influenced by the laws of physics and chemistry, natural selection, adaptation, extinction of previous and more successful competition which opens new opportunities, etc., or...

Creationism/ID: The development/creation of life in its current form or guided toward its current form for unknowable but presumeably specific goal, leaving absolutely no evidence of the existence of said "creator" or "intelligence," etc.

Who's being intellectually dishonest, here?
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 38
Stating odds of life at Gliese 581g 100% optimistic
Posted: 10/20/2010 1:01:00 PM
Not a valid analogy. You picked an example that I happen to have a bit more than a passing knowledge of. The difference between the two, and the REASON a judge is not forced to go back to the very first example of the common law to justify a ruling, is because a judge COULD go back to the very Origin of the ruling, and scientists can't do that with the theory of evolution.


Paul, you are attempting to discredit the analogy through an appeal to authority. Don't bother. Fallacious arguments aren't going to impress anyone here. My point is that even though a judge could certainly go back all the way to the Magna Carta in order to justify a modern ruling, he doesn't need to. Sufficient precendent exists in the most recent record to do so. Similarly, an evolutionary biology could go back to the big bang to justify the theory but it is highly unnecessary. There's enough evidence in modern biology and paleontology, thank you very much.


As I have said before, there are as many answers to that question as there are people. If you have problems with those that claim that creationism/ID is a scientific fact, please, take that fight to them, not me.


Good. Then we're agreed that Creation/ID is unsupportable. How then do you go to this?


I believe that only adaptation occurs, and have yet to see sny one particular species, being, life form "evolve" to a more complex life form. Yes, everything adapts, but that is it.


This is very reminiscent of the equivocation, sophistry and prevarication used by the Creationist/ID crowd that shows a fundamental lack of understanding of what the science is all about. First of all, "beings" and "lifeforms" don't evolve all at once. Entire populationss do, over various amounts of time. Information on this is available all over the place. I've even recommended authors for you to read who can clarify the point far more eloquently than I.

Secondly, adaptation is one of the primary mechanisms of evolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution). To say adaptation without evolution is a little like saying fire, but no heat.

However, as I have challenged you and others with before, if you have a viable alternative, feel free to offer it. Be warned, however. Whatever alternative you have to offer is going to have to be successful at explaining all the things evolution does successfully, now. Things like:

1) The fossil record that clearly shows morphological and functional changes in species over deep time.
2) The fact that all life on the planet shares at least some genes in common, especially genes that support certain developmental functions, such as the Hox which has led to the specific body architecture we see with all vertebrates.
3) Genetic similarities in species close together including the 98 per cent similarity in our closest cousins the apes, versus further (but still with some similarities) with further separated species such as the carrot. Yes, you and I share at least a few genes with common root vegetables.
4) Animal distributions based on time and migration. Did you know that Darwin observed he could accept evolution as a mechanism based only on the distribution of animals?
5) Observed instances of evolution and speciation. For instance, the Lenskie experiment I cited. Also http://www.cnah.org/pdf_files/647.pdf

...and last but not least...

6) The origin of all species in their present forms and sharing the above-mentioned qualities, if not through evolution from earlier and simpler ancestors.


As far as needing to know the origin, YES, that is very important, because HOW it happened will dictate how evolution now occurs.


But not THAT evolution occurs, again, given that we have no reasonable and testable alternative. Remember, evolution only becomes a question after the first self-replicating molecule starts replicating. Which is why abiogenesis and cosmogenesis are separate fields of study at present.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 39
Stating odds of life at Gliese 581g 100% optimistic
Posted: 10/20/2010 1:16:07 PM

I guess the word "proof" has different meaning to different people. Assumption cannot be part of its discription.


Care to offer specific criticisms? Offering purposely non-specific criticisms is also a tendency of the Creationist/ID crowd.
 OpenEyes
Joined: 9/26/2010
Msg: 40
Stating odds of life at Gliese 581g 100% optimistic
Posted: 10/20/2010 1:46:05 PM

the word "proof" has different meaning to different people

Exactly- to people who have actually extensively studied biology, the extensive correlations between genetic mutation clocks, physiological similarities, fossil records, geological strata dating all converging together and pointing towards the same thing- lineages of evolution from common ancestry; is proof enough. For people who are blinded by faith and just a layman's education, or worse, have read extensively from pseudoscientific sources, no amount of scientific convergence of evidence will be sufficient; until they can actually watch the process of hundreds of millenia occur right before their eyes, they'll keep demanding more.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 41
Stating odds of life at Gliese 581g 100% optimistic
Posted: 10/20/2010 2:19:19 PM

Lets put it this way, I know about as much of evolution as you know about proof...............


Some of us understand the difference between a mathematical proof and evidenciary-based proof.

And still, no viable alternative or answer to the challenges I put forward.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 42
Stating odds of life at Gliese 581g 100% optimistic
Posted: 10/20/2010 3:45:55 PM

Silly me, asking for evidence..................


Silly you for not recognizing the abundance of evidence there is.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-research.html

And still no alternative proposed. Hmmm....
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 43
Stating odds of life at Gliese 581g 100% optimistic
Posted: 10/20/2010 5:20:34 PM

You know what really bothers me....... you have to use words like "estimate" and "assumes", and then that is trotted out as proof.


Perhaps you are having a problem with the words being used. You see, this is evidence of evolution. All scientific knowledge is provisional as scientists readily acknowledge. For instance, the current story of evolution would have to be greatly revised if they found a mammalian skeleton in cambrian-era rock for instance. Until that happens, it remains the best explanation.

Taken as a single point, this single example might seem problematic. Again, given the DNA evidence, it is very strong in favour of the case for evolution. Added to the preponderance of evidence in favour of evolution from other sources, it becomes the best explanation.

Again...still no alternative proposed. You have yet to answer the question: where do you think life came from in its varied forms but still related on the basic level. This arguing the "problems" with evolution without offering an alternative - beyond godidit, of course - is a common creationist approach. Surely you can see how one could be confused about your position, given that fact.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 44
view profile
History
Stating odds of life at Gliese 581g 100% optimistic
Posted: 10/20/2010 6:23:10 PM
"I have to agree with you in that there are those that call themselves "christians" and have no clue as to the true meaning, or at least what I would consider the true meaning. Just like in all walks of life, there the few who muck it up for all. That is true in Chritianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, islam......... everybody. The DIFFERENCE is that there are religions where their religion is not only a religion, but a social contract as to how life is to be lived, and that social contract impinges not only on the believers, but on ALL mankind, and they are very willing to use force to achieve their "religious" desires.

Those are the ones I have a problem with.

Paul K "


Agreed. A rare occassion Paul. Thanks.

I live in the buckle of the Babble Belt where people are using their kids as projectiles, shields, and sacrificial lambs in the name of Theocratic take-over of public institutions. They are shameless, relentless, and aggressive as hell. From forcing prayer into public events, to taking over school boards, curiculums, public forums and higher offices, these folks who hate science, the teachings of peaceful prophets, and reason, are intent on instituting a Christian Taliban to dictate beliefs, their morality, and their desires, often with the underlying threat of force. This is just another one of the latest episodes of their tactical attempts to conquer reason and sanity.
http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2010/oct/20/national-group-demands-end-prayers-soddy-daisy-hig/

And here's the current head Theocrat dissing science..
http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201010200013
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 45
Stating odds of life at Gliese 581g 100% optimistic
Posted: 10/20/2010 7:18:11 PM

Please show me in anyting I have written that "godidit"


Feel free to show me how what you've argued doesn't lead directly to this implication. Or, at the very least, offer a viable alternative.


Plese don't mix me up with others. I maintain, and always have, that we don't know, and that to me evolution just doesn't explain things, as there is NO connection from one life form to another.


Argumentum ad ignorantum. Just because you don't see it as "possible," doesn't make it true. But please do try to argue away years of molecular biology and research into genetic evolution. Including evidence from genetic research that shows clear relationships between species, including the Hox genes.


And, I have answered the question of where I think life came from, you have asked me many times, I have answered many times; you want that answer, look it up.


Really? Because I looked back over your history. And I haven't seen anything resembling an actual answer to the question. The best I saw was....


Hey atar

You wrote a bunch of stuff:
"1) The fossil record that clearly shows morphological and functional changes in species over deep time."
The fossil record proves no such thing. ALL it shows is that there are species that are similar to each other........ Just like most Hondas look like each other, and don't look like Fords, doesn't meant that one Honda begat the other........

"2) The fact that all life on the planet shares at least some genes in common, especially genes that support certain developmental functions, such as the Hox which has led to the specific body architecture we see with all vertebrates."
Same as your #1.

"3) Genetic similarities in species close together including the 98 per cent similarity in our closest cousins the apes, versus further (but still with some similarities) with further separated species such as the carrot. Yes, you and I share at least a few genes with common root vegetables."
SAME as #1.

"4) Animal distributions based on time and migration. Did you know that Darwin observed he could accept evolution as a mechanism based only on the distribution of animals?"
And this is part of the proof of evolution?


So, again, only the same "doubting Thomas" approach, with no real offer of an alternative. And yes, the latter part is part of evolution.


The fossil record proves no such thing. ALL it shows is that there are species that are similar to each other........ Just like most Hondas look like each other, and don't look like Fords, doesn't meant that one Honda begat the other........


Weak. If Hondas and Fords were governed by the same laws of chemistry as life is, then this would be a legitimate argument. This is much like Hoyle's example of the spontaneous development of a 747 from a junk yard.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 46
Stating odds of life at Gliese 581g 100% optimistic
Posted: 10/20/2010 7:53:23 PM
God knows...figuratively speaking. Back to the business at hand...
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 47
view profile
History
Stating odds of life at Gliese 581g 100% optimistic
Posted: 10/21/2010 2:56:25 AM
I think the slope slipped when someone tried to give equal credence to creationists/IDers in discussing matters of biology, evolution, and the probability of life elsewhere in the universe.

Evolution, and the possibility of life forming on another planet is alien to certain belief systems here on earth. Anti-evolutionists are embracing a dumbing down of sciences for their young toward the ID-faith based model. When we have popular street preachers like Beck and O'Donnel going ballistic over the theory of evolution, and Creationists like Ham proclaiming that the whole universe was affected by Adam and Eve's "sin", there is a slippery slope of ignorance that is creeping into politics and science that will affect both our chances for survival on this planet, much less any possibility that our species or some intelligent species on Earth could ever become citizens of the universe.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/karl-giberson-phd/are-the-gliesans-going-to_b_751761.html
http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_publi.htm
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/20/glenn-beck-joins-the-rank_n_770331.html

These same folks tend to care less about extinction rates here, declining water and food availability, human induced climate chaos, oil wars, increasing cancer rates, etc. Faith based destruction of life on earth is cool with em. But the concept of evolution and life elsewhere in the universe...well that's the end of their world and heads must roll. The threat of intelligent life on another planet, or even on Earth is being met with an escalation of the war on science.
http://www.waronscience.com/excerpt.php
When I slipped down that slope, noting the young Crusaders at the high school level, it was to illustrate how pervasive and aggressive this war is becoming among the youth.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 48
Stating odds of life at Gliese 581g 100% optimistic
Posted: 10/21/2010 1:32:51 PM

I copy/pasted that from a post by one who calls him/herself "atar"............. it may have been on my post, but I didn't write it, and if it was in the format as above, then for certain I was taking exception to what the original poster wrote.


What!? There isn't a hint of a notion of a bit of sense. You took what I posted, made an attempt to "answer" a couple of objections with a couple of weak responses.


Remember this, just because YOU see things as possible, doesn't mean they are...... key in on the word "possible".


Possible is not the same as supportable. It's called evidence. For which there is a considerable amounts of evidence of evolution. Whole books and museum displays are dedicated to it.


You keep asking me for a "real alternative"........ I keep telling you that I believe in adaptation, but do not believe in evolution, and that I don't know the answer, and tht is one of the great mysteries of life. We may solve it someday, but have not yet. To date, we have the theory that it is "possible".......


Um...yeeeaaaahhh....so rather than attempt to make any kind of progress through the established methodologies of science, we instead throw up our hands and leave it at that? Sure.

Evolution is not only "possible" is also supportable based on present evidence. What have you got?

One would think that someone so familiar with the law would understand that argumentum ad ignoratum is a fallacious argument. It's a cop-out which gives the proponent the option of harping on perceived "flaws" to the theory of evolution without actually addressing the logical problems of explaining the very things that evolution itself is most successful at - proposing an origin of our present array of species. And, again, evolution doesn't explain, nor is it required to explain, the origin of life. Just what happened once the first self-replicating molecules appeared.

Well, at least you believe in "adaptation," here you go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptation


Adaptation is the evolutionary process whereby a population becomes better suited to its habitat.[1][2] This process takes place over many generations,[3] and is one of the basic phenomena of biology.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 49
Stating odds of life at Gliese 581g 100% optimistic
Posted: 10/21/2010 1:45:48 PM
Yeah, adaptation is evolution.

It's like saying you believe in algebra, but when you take it to calculus you're in "unproven and unsupportable" territory.
 OpenEyes
Joined: 9/26/2010
Msg: 50
Stating odds of life at Gliese 581g 100% optimistic
Posted: 10/21/2010 11:00:49 PM

So then, algebra evolved into calculus?

What he's saying is that you don't see that calculus is the logical extension of algebra in the same way that evolution is the logical extension of naturally selected adaptation. The fact that you can't imagine large scale changes occuring through progressive adaptations does not mean we can't see it happening in the fossil record itself.

It's like "We know that creatures adapt to their environment through multiple generations, we know that we see a progression of similar physiologies changing slightly in the fossil record through geological strata over the eons, we know that some of these progressions appear to unite with other progressions at some point in the past, we know that mutation clocks of living organisms resembling these diverged lineages agree with radiological dating of the strata the fossils at the point of divergence were found in... I WONDER WHAT COULD BE HAPPENING?!?!?!1!one"
Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Stating odds of life at Gliese 581g "100%" optimistic