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 friendly_dane
Joined: 7/6/2006
Msg: 53
Circumcision... Page 3 of 18    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18)
I'm not here to say that your opions are wrong, they are your opions and you have a right to have them just like anyone else. frankly i find it offensive that you suggest Alberta would be more backward than southern Alabama or Somalia where circumcision is more common. In fact on a world scale it tends to be underdeveloped countries that still support circumcision.

I have read up on this for various courses for school when we dealt with genital mutilation. So i would like to point out some more educated peoples opinions on the subject who have spent a lot more time on it than we have.


First of all it's not dirty
http://www.nocirc.org/articles/fleiss1.php


* One of the most common myths about circumcision is that it makes the penis cleaner and easier to take care of. This is not true. Eyes without eyelids would not be cleaner; neither would a penis without its foreskin. The artificially externalized glans and meatus of the circumcised penis are constantly exposed to abrasion and dirt, making the circumcised penis, in fact, more unclean. The loss of the protective foreskin leaves the urinary tract vulnerable to invasion by bacterial and viral pathogens.

The circumcision wound is larger than most people imagine. It is not just the circular point of union between the outer and inner layers of the remaining skin. Before a baby is circumcised, his foreskin must be torn from his glans, literally skinning it alive. This creates a large open area of raw, bleeding flesh, covered at best with a layer of undeveloped proto-mucosa. Germs can easily enter the damaged tissue and bloodstream through the raw glans and, even more easily, through the incision itself.

Even after the wound has healed, the externalized glans and meatus are still forced into constant unnatural contact with urine, feces, chemically treated diapers, and other contaminants.

Female partners of circumcised men do not report a lower rate of cervical cancer,40 nor does circumcision prevent penile cancer.41 A recent study shows that the penile cancer rate is higher in the US than in Denmark, where circumcision, except among Middle-Eastern immigrant workers, is almost unheard of.42 Indeed, researchers should investigate the possibility that circumcision has actually increased the rate of these diseases.

Circumcision does not prevent acquisition or transmission of sexually transmitted diseases (STDs). In fact, the US has both the highest percentage of sexually active circumcised males in the Western world and the highest rates of sexually transmitted diseases, including AIDS. Rigorously controlled prospective studies show that circumcised American men are at a greater risk for bacterial and viral STDs, especially gonorrhea,43 nongonoccal urethritis,44 human papilloma virus,45 herpes simplex virus type 2,46 and chlamydia.47


it's not as widespread practice anymore as witnessed here
http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/Canada/


Some unofficial statistics for 2003 for seven provinces and one territory, which had 75 percent of the total male births in Canada found that only 11.46 percent of Canadian infant boys in the reporting provinces and territories are being circumcised, which leaves 88.14 percent intact.



as for benefits of foreskin
http://www.nocirc.org/articles/fleiss1.php


# rotection: Just as the eyelids protect the eyes, the foreskin protects the glans and keeps its surface soft, moist, and sensitive. It also maintains optimal warmth, pH balance, and cleanliness. The glans itself contains no sebaceous glands-glands that produce the sebum, or oil, that moisturizes our skin.11 The foreskin produces the sebum that maintains proper health of the surface of the glans.
# Immunological Defense: The mucous membranes that line all body orifices are the body's first line of immunological defense. Glands in the foreskin produce antibacterial and antiviral proteins such as lysozyme.12 Lysozyme is also found in tears and mother's milk. Specialized epithelial Langerhans cells, an immune system component, abound in the foreskin's outer surface.13 Plasma cells in the foreskin's mucosal lining secrete immunoglobulins, antibodies that defend against infection.14
# Erogenous Sensitivity: The foreskin is as sensitive as the fingertips or the lips of the mouth. It contains a richer variety and greater concentration of specialized nerve receptors than any other part of the penis.15 These specialized nerve endings can discern motion, subtle changes in temperature, and fine gradations of texture.16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23
# Coverage During Erection: As it becomes erect, the penile shaft becomes thicker and longer. The double-layered foreskin provides the skin necessary to accommodate the expanded organ and to allow the penile skin to glide freely, smoothly, and pleasurably over the shaft and glans.
# Self-Stimulating Sexual Functions: The foreskin's double-layered sheath enables the penile shaft skin to glide back and forth over the penile shaft. The foreskin can normally be slipped all the way, or almost all the way, back to the base of the penis, and also slipped forward beyond the glans. This wide range of motion is the mechanism by which the penis and the orgasmic triggers in the foreskin, frenulum, and glans are stimulated.
# Sexual Functions in Intercourse: One of the foreskin's functions is to facilitate smooth, gentle movement between the mucosal surfaces of the two partners during intercourse. The foreskin enables the penis to slip in and out of the vagina nonabrasively inside its own slick sheath of self-lubricating, movable skin. The female is thus stimulated by moving pressure rather than by friction only, as when the male's foreskin is missing.
# The foreskin fosters intimacy between the two partners by enveloping the glans and maintaining it as an internal organ. The sexual experience is enhanced when the foreskin slips back to allow the male's internal organ, the glans, to meet the female's internal organ, the cervix-a moment of supreme intimacy and beauty.
 TherealFish
Joined: 7/29/2006
Msg: 54
Circumcision...
Posted: 8/18/2006 10:39:39 AM
And all it takes is?
 friendly_dane
Joined: 7/6/2006
Msg: 55
Circumcision...
Posted: 8/18/2006 10:59:11 AM


Its not widespread practice because people have to pay for it. It's amazing how people always grab a freebee...Anyone who can be open minded to both sides of the issue can make an unbiased decision. I would pay any price to have it done to my child...sooo worth it. AJ is the only one on here that makes any sense...Every anti-circ. website is totally devoted to foreskin worship, and scare tactics through emotion. Or they use word trickery and twist facts...none with any documentation to back it up, just heresay. However, not one of these sites have any scientific backing to prove what they claim. Try finding one that is unbiased and presents facts from both sides of the issue...you may be surprised what you see. but , then again, you love your foreskins and live in denial that a moist sweaty place beneath skin can be remotely dirty. And I like having a maintenance free penis. Makes more sense. I just don't see any benefits whatsoever of leaving the foreskin intact. And don't tell me sensitivity...there is NO scientific evidence to prove that; it's like comparing apples to oranges. And penile cancer...that is another thing a foreskin can attract. By getting circumsized, it virtually removes any chance of it. That is all.

post below...you are right...They are going to believe what they want to...as will I. This is just getting stupid...I'm just gunna keep away from this topic now. As long as I know I'm right...hehehe


I find it amazing how quickly you dismiss the facts even when they are presented to you you. I'm sure you will be one who claims it never rains even if you stand outside getting wet.

You seem to have reversed your logic. Every pro-circumcision website have claims that are not backed up or if so poorly done using faulty logic to scare people such as the penis is dirty if it has a foreskin and that woman prefer it cut, those my friend are scare tactics.

Although i'm sure Medical doctors are biased there seem to be growing numbers of medical research showing the benefits of keeping the skin. I have yet been presented with any research that shows that a penis is dirty becaue it has foreskin, feel free to correct me on it I would value the additional knowledge and insight and woudl make your points more creditable.

Unless you completely ignored my post you will find that your claims are false and that there are plenty of medical studies to disprove your outlandish claims of it being more dirty than any other penis. I learned to take showers and wash myself so any of this "d*ck cheese" -> also known as smegma does not occur in people who wash themselves and has a normal healthy penis. .

the fact is that circumcision is not needed in civilized countries. The only reason why it is still performed is either through religious reasons (predominantly muslim and jewish in this case), medical complications (which are rare but do occur) or because people have been brainwashed into believing that it is prettier and more clean without any backing whatsoever from the scientific community.


The facts speak for themselves. Any genital mutliation, male or female, should be outlawed on people who can not make the decision for themselves and are able to make an informed decision.
 justme1202
Joined: 7/26/2006
Msg: 56
Circumcision...
Posted: 8/18/2006 2:40:42 PM
i dont think this thread was made for any of u to argue about wether u should or not be circumsized. if your not and ur happy by all means gitty up.. and if u are circumized thats great. why argue which is better??? maybe for those of who have never been circumsized dont know whats its like to be circumsized so why judge the other and for the other way around. everyone has there preference leave it at that.
 friendly_dane
Joined: 7/6/2006
Msg: 57
Circumcision...
Posted: 8/18/2006 3:01:28 PM
Well i dont really want to argue that one is better than the other rather than the morality involved in choosing the operation on an infant.

that being said there is a lot of misconceptions that should be addressed.

telling someone that their penis is dirty because they are not circumcised is an insult at best on a persons ability to clean themselves.

that being said if a guy decides he wants to be circumcised more power to them. I couldn't care less what someone does to their own body, but when it involves others, that's when one should question the motives behind the decision.
 Becky_LaF
Joined: 2/23/2005
Msg: 58
Circumcision...
Posted: 8/18/2006 7:15:58 PM
^^ I do not agree that a circumcised penis is much more aseptically appealing than an uncut one. we are talking about an erect penis right?? if so, I have said it before I will say it again, most of the uncut d*cks look just like a cut d*ck when hard.

I have been in 4 ltr, 2 were cut, 2 werent. I have never experienced the 'smelly penis' or smegma from the uncut ones.

a d*ck is a d*ck, you fall in love with what ever kind is attached to the man you love.


My son is uncut, but if one day he decides he wants it, or has medical reason's for doing so, I will back him 100%. Until than, Im not worried about it. All the boys born now, are not being cut anymore around here. very rare that a parent pays for it to be done. it will be the cut ones that will be made fun of in school.

all you guys arguing about this is pretty silly, I thought us women were the ones that are obsessed with the penis. you guys not telling us something?!?!?!?!
 justme1202
Joined: 7/26/2006
Msg: 59
Circumcision...
Posted: 8/18/2006 8:16:58 PM
why would u leave it to be your sons decision? when he does not even know the difference. Much rather be changing the diaper of a little boy who looks like he has a penis and not some kind of elephants trunk. just my preference andi know for a of fact that when this little boy is older he will not be calling me and saying mommy why didnt u leave me have foreskin on my penis. come on now. your preference is yours and mine is mine as i know of many men that had to get it done later and life and claim its much easier if they would have had it done as babies. if u dont like my opinion or choice on this then its unfortunate. You have ur opinion and options as we all do. and if was mutilation for this to be done to a baby do honestly think doctors would agree to do it?? i think not.
 friendly_dane
Joined: 7/6/2006
Msg: 60
Circumcision...
Posted: 8/18/2006 8:51:35 PM
perhaps you skipped my post. It is only going in circles because it appears no reliable scientific reasons are presented for circumcision.

The reason for the claims of it being better for you is merely a rebuttal to the outragous claims that some people make that it is either cleaner, prettier or in anyway better for you to be cut. these are myths which has been shown to be untrue.

I personally dont care that you are circumcised or not, but it is when people make claims that are nothing but lies then i want to correct it. This is especially so considering the unclean part is practically an insult.

Mutliation as defined by dictionary.com
mu·ti·late ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mytl-t)
tr.v. mu·ti·lat·ed, mu·ti·lat·ing, mu·ti·lates
To deprive of a limb or an essential part; cripple.
To disfigure by damaging irreparably: mutilate a statue. See Synonyms at batter1.
To make imperfect by excising or altering parts.

although one can argue the finer points it is just as valid to call it mutliation than anything else. nowhere does it say mutilate means rendering it useless. as you also pointed out it means degrates the function. since we have proven that the circumcised penis is more sensitive I think it is fairly easy to back this up.


as for female circumcision you shoudl read up on it. There are several variations depending on the cultural background. Not all involve cutting off the clitoris, some are based on "hoodectomy" where the hood of the clitoris is removed. This sounds remarkably similar to removing the foreskin does it not?
 friendly_dane
Joined: 7/6/2006
Msg: 61
Circumcision...
Posted: 8/18/2006 9:00:29 PM


Maybe you have been skipping over the posts where the newly circumcised man has praised the procedure in his adulthood.

Also, I never said that circumcised is better. However, I did say that I enjoy having a cheese free penis.


perhaps you missed the post the explained that the person who claimed it was better afterwards did not have a normal uncircumcised penis. There are some men, and not too many, who are unable to retract the foreskin, this is corrected surgically. Everyone on here who claims it is better cut has had this problem thereby making it obvious that they enjoyed it more afterwards.


As for your statement of having a cheese free penis. Well congratulations i dont know anyone who actually has a cheese penis so i'm not sure why you would need to bring it up nor how it supports your opinons on the matter.
 justme1202
Joined: 7/26/2006
Msg: 62
Circumcision...
Posted: 8/19/2006 8:33:36 AM
great dane do u have personal issues?????????????? that u need to argue with every single persons posts and defend ur uncicumsized penis?? no wonder AJ thinks u have some kind of complex. dont blame us. get on with ur life.
 friendly_dane
Joined: 7/6/2006
Msg: 63
Circumcision...
Posted: 8/19/2006 9:37:05 AM

"great dane do u have personal issues?????????????? that u need to argue with every single persons posts and defend ur uncicumsized penis?? no wonder AJ thinks u have some kind of complex. dont blame us. get on with ur life. "


me.. nope. .
IT's about debunking myths that has arisen. As you would notice my arguments are of a more scientific and medical reasoning rather than tossing around personal opinons as facts.

I find it funny that pro-circumcision people tend to fling personal opinions as some sort of fact and then claim that when presented with evidence to the contrary dismiss it as some sort of complex. I'm all up for listening to why circumcision should be done but no one has of yet brought up a scientifically backed reason behind their opinion.

I have absolutely no problem with people who are circumcised. please understand that. If you like circumcision, that's fine. if you are happy with the way it looks that's fine too. However when people spreading false rumors and myths as facts is when I have an issue.
 Trevor®
Joined: 7/1/2006
Msg: 64
Circumcision...
Posted: 8/19/2006 11:07:47 AM

I did some googling...found that like 99% of sites are biased towards the anti. circ. view point.....but did find one that actually takes in points of consideration from both sies of the issue:


Doesn't that make you scratch your head and wonder? You found ONE website out of a hundred that supports circumcision?
 faro123
Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 65
Circumcision...
Posted: 8/19/2006 11:34:57 AM
What I find amazing it that noboday seems to care about the fact we damage our sons bodies altering them for the rest of their lives!! Extreme pain, aganoy and life long damage to penis is of no concern to anyone.
Is this becasue no one cares or no one knows! ?
 Trevor®
Joined: 7/1/2006
Msg: 66
Circumcision...
Posted: 8/19/2006 2:45:53 PM
^^^^ Ummmm.... welcome to this thread! Did you read any of the posts yet? Thanks for coming out!
 justme1202
Joined: 7/26/2006
Msg: 67
Circumcision...
Posted: 8/19/2006 4:53:39 PM
do u anti-circumsion ppl honestly think a baby boy is going to complain about being circumsized? i think not. just saving him the pain of getting it done when he is older. saving the boy from having to pull the skin back and wash beyond. i am sure its not as sensitive sexually but who cares when ur young? a little boy is more likely to complain about the smegma that gathers under the foreskin then worrying about being circumsized as a baby which he wont even remember. u people that disagree with me or anyone that gets their baby boys circumsized then thats your opinion and option to do so. as it is my option to get it done.
 friendly_dane
Joined: 7/6/2006
Msg: 68
Circumcision...
Posted: 8/19/2006 5:11:06 PM



--lol...actually...this is what I have been saying all along...the anti-circ websites only present the issues from one side of the story...playing on the emotional angle rather than proven facts. I did some googling...found that like 99% of sites are biased towards the anti. circ. view point.....but did find one that actually takes in points of consideration from both sies of the issue:

www.circumcisioninfo.com

please read this with an open mind. It has alot of interesting facts and debunks alot of the myths both sides present on this wacked up forum...


thank you for being the first to acutally present somethign to back your claims. I admire that.
that website does present some good views and some data to back up some of the claims. so i decided to take a closer look.

Reading the references on that pro circumcision website, which there are only 26 to beghin with, you will find that a lot of the references point towards other peoples opinions and not actual doctors or studies. In fact many of the references point to individual peoples belief who show no medical background (references, 13, 14, 14, 16, 17, 21)
some of the references are also from clearly outdated sources
Reference 19 from 1973, and more notable Reference 26 is from 1964!! back when female circumcision was still practiced in US.
Reference 8 points to a page that does not exist and is from another pro-circumcision website.

I must admit i was a bit disapointed to find this. I was also a bit disapointed to note a lot of personal opinon on that website that did not have any refernece either.

Frankly the reference list is pretty badly done and if presented at a university level course would have the individual flunk just because of it.




take a look at this website
http://www.circumcision.org/
it appears to have quite a few medical articles and it's not just anti-circumcision. I personally used this website when I was finding information for school and it served me quite well in pointing me towards medical literature on the subject.


But again, i thank you for looking into the subject matter. It is nice to see that your opinions have some backing.
 friendly_dane
Joined: 7/6/2006
Msg: 69
Circumcision...
Posted: 8/19/2006 5:24:18 PM


actually...it proves a point which myself and others have been saying all along...the anti circ groups are like a cult...worshipping the foreskin and use illogical and unproven facts to convince themselves of whatever...bunch of zealots...it is better to be objective in this life - and see both sides of an issue before making a decision. Its called intelligence. But, people are going to believe what they are going to believe anyhow...only seeing what they want to see...

hmm maybe i should retract the thak you.

I believe you have confused anti-circumcision people for pro-circumcision. in which case you will be correct. It appears mroe that the only ones who do not want to even acknowledge the facts before them is you and pro-circumcision.


anti-circumcision use medical research and data to prove their point. Pro-circumcision use unproven reasonings and personal opinion.

As for calling us Zealots??? funny you would choose a term that originally was described of jewish people who supports circumcision.
 friendly_dane
Joined: 7/6/2006
Msg: 70
Circumcision...
Posted: 8/19/2006 5:47:08 PM
^^

well the vaginal dryness is what one medical finding discovered. But that's just it. The points are backed from medical journals and not from some random guy. How can you possibly sit there and so easily dismiss it?


I read the website you posted, and i went through the references, it does not appear you did the same. You stating that because you personally disagree with a medical study performed it discredits all points and are made by fanatics? isn't that a bit childish to come to those conclusions?
Seriously i'm very disapointed in your reaction. I would have hoped you could have atleast disproved some of the facts from other medical research.. But then again, maybe you tried to find some and failed because they do not exist.


So please, there are no fanatics here other than perhaps yourself. I do not claim to have amazing medical knowledge. I do what most people do when they are not experts. They read up on research, examine profesional opions and go from there. I can respect your opinion on the topic but please do not throw names or insults around.
 justme1202
Joined: 7/26/2006
Msg: 71
Mother, Why Was I Circumcised?
Posted: 8/20/2006 3:45:35 AM
my opinion is mine and obviously yours is yours i am not going to let a video change my view on anything. Sorry.
 justme1202
Joined: 7/26/2006
Msg: 72
Circumcision...
Posted: 8/20/2006 8:55:01 AM
Are you a member of the flat earth society? If not, I think you should join.

http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm

no thanx i prefer being a part of my own society where we make our own decisions and children cant make decisions for themselves as babies. i ll stick to my society
 friendly_dane
Joined: 7/6/2006
Msg: 73
Circumcision...
Posted: 8/20/2006 12:25:57 PM
^^
I agree. it's up to each individual to way the evidence in front of them and to draw their own conclusion.

But i would add on that it is not up to anyone one individual to force their opinon on others, such as circumcising a baby who has no say.

what your preferences are is up to the individual. and no one can argue personal preference. The only thing we can argue is the reasoning behind them.
 justme1202
Joined: 7/26/2006
Msg: 74
Circumcision...
Posted: 8/20/2006 7:36:25 PM
i said xneeeee to all the uncut penises
 justme1202
Joined: 7/26/2006
Msg: 75
Circumcision...
Posted: 8/21/2006 7:19:30 PM
it is a health issue i know of 2 men that had to get it done at the age of 40 and 45 and both because of health issues ill ask him let me get back to u
 friendly_dane
Joined: 7/6/2006
Msg: 76
Circumcision...
Posted: 8/21/2006 7:48:00 PM


it is a health issue i know of 2 men that had to get it done at the age of 40 and 45 and both because of health issues


Ok, I can respect your opinon on a personal preference and i respect that, but it is pretty clear by now that it is not a "health issue" just because you know 2 men who had to get it done does not mean every single person should. yes there are some people, and very few, who has to have it done but it medically does not warrant it for others. preventive surgery for things that may occur on a extremely small amount of men is not exactly ethical.

As for the "obvious propaganda" that Theaj claims.
Seriously.. do you actually believe what your writing or have you fallen so deeply in love with your own opinon that even medical research is considered propaganda for you? If you cant trust reports from respected doctors who do you believe? How did you form your opinions? I would like to know your source because apparently it must be pretty darn convincing in order for you to completely disregard any and all other research as pure lies. Seriously, please tell us of your enlighting source so we may all change our mind and understand your perspective since its so obvious that we have fallen victim to this great propaganda of saving the foreskin.
 forum_moderator
Joined: 1/24/2003
Msg: 77
view profile
History
Circumcision...
Posted: 8/27/2006 9:10:01 PM
Chat deleted

Discuss the topic, not each other.

The OP:


Circumcision...
Posted: 7/18/2005 10:37:18 AM
Ladies, I know some guys did not have one... Is there a difference in the feeling between a bald one and a cover up one??? How about a BJ??? Better???
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