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 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 36
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Homeless asking for Money....Page 2 of 11    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11)
The army could always take a few able bodied and willing people off the streets.


While representing only 8% of the US population, Veterans make up over 20% of the homeless population. A recent study of returned Troops in Virginia reported over a quarter of them had experienced head injuries and 66% reported varying levels of depression. The study authors maintained that the numbers could be considerably higher due to the stigma of seeking help for PTSD. TBIs, the signiture wound of the oil wars, like PTSD, can take years for the symptoms to fully kick in. The military, politicians, and uncaring public has helped put many of these people on the streets. The VA is still struggling for adequate funding and staffing to deal with the tidal wave of returning damaged troops and veterans. Turning them back into EID fodder to "clean up the streets" is an insensitive sentiment at best.

How about sending victims of domestic abuse and children off to war? That will take a significant number of the homeless off the streets.

Children make up about 27% of the overall homeless population, according to recent estimates. Families with children are now the fastest growing homeless sub-group. They account for about 40% of the people who become homeless each year. About 50% of America’s homeless women and children are running from domestic abuse.
Read more at Suite101: Number of Homeless Children on the Rise in US: Ending Child Homelessness Must Be National Priority http://www.suite101.com/content/numbers-of-homeless-children-on-the-rise-in-us-a202106#ixzz13vzq0mPo


Or how about those who have bankrupted due to accidents or grave illness in a country "with the best health care in the world". Should we throw them into Helmets and Hummers. More disposible people I guess.
http://pnhp.org/blog/2009/07/02/only-in-america-medical-bankruptcy-homelessness/
1.Illness and medical bills were linked to at least 62.1% of all personal bankruptcies in 2007. Based on the current bankruptcy filing rate, medical bankruptcies will total 866,000 and involve 2.346 million Americans this year – about one person every 15 seconds.
2.Most medically bankrupt families were middle class before they suffered financial setbacks. 60.3% of them had attended college and 66.4% had owned a home; 20% of families included a military veteran or active-duty soldier.
3.78% of the individuals whose illness led to bankruptcy had health insurance at the onset of the bankrupting illness; 60% had private insurance.
4.69% of debtor families had coverage at the time of their bankruptcy filing; 60% of families had continuous coverage.
and...
http://www.nationalhomeless.org/factsheets/index.html
1.Number of Homeless Persons in U.S. Annually: 3.5 million.
2.Number of Homeless Persons in U.S. Nightly: 842,000.
3.About 15 million of us experience homelessness at least once in our lifetime.
4.39% of the homeless are under the age 18: 1.35 million children per year and 200,000 on any given night.
5.23% of all homeless people were members of families with children
6.400,000 veterans are homeless per year, 200,000 on any given night.
7.The role of mental illness and substance use is less than you may assume: Approximately 16% of the single adult homeless population suffers from some form of severe and persistent mental illness; 30% currently addicted to alcohol or drugs. The cliché is that the closing of mental hospitals turned out many crazy people onto the streets. That is in fact a smaller and often over-emphasized part of the problem.
8.The bigger part of the problem is stagnant income and less affordable housing. The main cure for homelessness is affordable homes. 9 million low-income renter households nationwide pay more than half of their income for housing. In no community in the U.S. today can someone who gets a fulltime job at the minimum wage reasonably expect to find a modest rental unit he or she can afford.

Add to all that the recession and high unemployment/underemployment combined with the foreclosure crisis and the homeless demographic looks increasingly the same as the demographic of this forum. The difference being that all of us, even the most smug, have been fortunate thus far.

For those with some semblence of humanity remaining who wish to help, there are charitable organizations in every community that need financial help in feeding people, putting a roof and warmth over the heads of abused women and children and others. There is also a crucial need for amplified pressure on our politicians to fully fund the VA to at least adequately deal with the flood of the newly wounded of body, brain and soul. I do hand out food, gloves and a buck or two to the homeless on occassion, have taken in homeless friends to help them get back on their feet, and never forget that but for the grace.....it can happen to any of us in a flash.

http://pnhp.org/blog/2009/07/02/only-in-america-medical-bankruptcy-homelessness/
Mr. Joseph Benson (.pdf) is from Houston, Texas. When I met him for the first time last Wednesday he was wearing cowboy gear including the hat, which covered his long braided hair. He had a huge smile on his face and is a magnetic speaker; here is the story he told us: He was the first in his family to go to and complete college. After his BA, he went on and got professional chef’s training, and worked his way up in that industry, working in various restaurants and becoming a head chef. He saved money, moved back to Houston to help care of his parents and start his own family. He built up a custom catering business, and was now the boss, employing 25 other people.

He had a wife and two children, and was putting money away for their college funds. He had health insurance and auto insurance and his own home.

Surely this was the living embodiment of the “Only in America” all-American dream.

However, one night, on the way home from a catering job, he had an automobile accident, running head on into a commercial flatbed truck. The other truck was parked and loading scrap from a junk yard, and was jutting out into the road without it lights or blinkers on.

He survived but was in the hospital for almost a year.

Did I mention that when I met him, in addition to the cowboy outfit and smile, he was in a wheelchair with no legs, both amputated high above the knee?

The medical bills quickly blew past what his insurance would cover. The owner and driver of the other truck did not have insurance, like 10-20% of vehicle owners despite the mandate to buy auto insurance, so Mr. Benson and his insurance company were unable to go after that source.

He lost his business.
His employees lost their jobs (and presumably their families suffered).
He and his family lost their house.
He and his family lost the kids college fund.
He lost his family.

When he was finally discharged from the hospital, it was to the street.

I’d probably would have just killed myself.
He survived but started drinking. A lot. And cocaine.
Note that in this instance it was the homelessness first, that then led to the drinking and drugs; not the other way around.

Eventually, he wound up in a shelter, and eventually he was able to put his professional chef skills to work in the “soup kitchen.” From that he has worked his way back to sobriety, fulltime employment and housing.

 Padawan61
Joined: 3/1/2008
Msg: 37
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History
Homeless asking for Money....
Posted: 10/31/2010 7:52:53 AM
^^^^^I felt sorry for the guy until I got to this part:

He survived but started drinking. A lot. And cocaine.
Note that in this instance it was the homelessness first, that then led to the drinking and drugs; not the other way around

So it's OK to start drinking and doing cocaine if homelessness happened first?? Could he not have wound up at the shelter ... without the stint of alcohol and drugs ... and being such a legitimate case, get that job as a chef for the shelter??

He lost his family

How did he lose his family?? Did they just got up and left him because he had no money?? If so, "nice" family.

So it's OK to start drinking and doing cocaine if homelessness happened first??


If I had to endure the soul-sucking disasters the man suffered in rapid progression, I would likely be drinking and doing drugs also, and I currently do neither.

Perhaps a little compassion is in order..........

Sounds like you're advocating drug use as a way to endure that rapid progression of disasters. Drugs is the last thing people should do because it will only ADD to their misery ... not subtract from it. Adding addictions to one's life makes it that much more difficult to fix it. And that has nothing to do with compassion or lack of it.

Lesser people might do a quicker suicide route than alcohol and drugs

Well, if such disasters befell me, I would rather take the quick suicide route than live a life of added misery with drugs and alcohol.

We see it frequently with victims of PTSD who tend to let anger and/or distancing drive away those who love them most

Getting angry at those who love you the most (and supported you during difficult times) ... means he had a hand in his own demise. I could see anger if family wasn't supportive of what he was going through.

VVVVVVVVVVVVVV
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 38
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History
Homeless asking for Money....
Posted: 10/31/2010 8:02:33 AM
Padawan...
It's really hard to judge how any of us would react to a cascade of disasters that put us down as low as things can get. Families often fall apart during dire circumstances. We see it frequently with victims of PTSD who tend to let anger and/or distancing drive away those who love them most. Until you walk a mile in his shoes, no longer needed, it is difficult to view life from the pitts. Lesser people might do a quicker suicide route than alcohol and drugs.
 MissNoWhere
Joined: 3/29/2008
Msg: 40
Homeless asking for Money....
Posted: 10/31/2010 4:39:09 PM

All the homeless supporters on this thread should realize that ... although it is your prerogative to give away your money to panhandlers, it is also the prerogative of non-supporters to withhold money. Trying to shame us into joining your bandwagon with such quaint and tired ol' phrases like "There, but for the grace of God, go I." and "Walking a mile in someones shoes" ... won't work.

If we're gonna use worn-out adages ... how about "A fool and his money are soon parted".


I'll bite...

Yes... there, but for the grace of God, go I. I couldn't always say that, though. The problem with forums is that you really don't know the history of people. You don't know what paths they have traveled to get where they are now. The forums provide you with a bunch of words on a screen and while it's a real person behind the keyboard, there's no personal, intimate, knowledge of the person who is writing and responding.

I must apologize if you felt my comment was an attempt to shame anyone into joining a "bandwagon." Quite frankly we all have opinions and I simply was expressing mine, albiet in a way that obviously you felt was an attempt to guilt, shame or make you feel bad for standing by yours.




If the stranger was a gullible bleeding heart type ...


I've NEVER been called a bleeding heart.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 41
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History
Homeless asking for Money....
Posted: 11/1/2010 6:48:56 AM
Plursty.. As you can see from some of the language about "them" and pretending "homeless people" aren't there, it seems that a lot of that need to disassociate from people in down times is partially an insecurity, a need for denial and insulation that it could never possibly happen to us. To find out and acknowledge that most of "these people" were just like us at one time is difficult to bear. It's makes us more secure to believe "these people" have some sort of serious flaws, lack fortitude and character like ours. The truth is, most had all of that fortitude and character just like us, till entirely too much crap hit the fan, the safety net was shredded, and the true character of their friends and family were exposed.

Greg Brown song and lyrics on the subject.
http://ilike.myspacecdn.com/play#Greg+Brown:Just+A+Bum:618853:s50761615.12601203.20748933.0.2.228%2Cstd_931882569744415ea2804b09af94321d

Just a bum..
I saw a man, he's a well-dressed man
He had a tan from the Yucatan
He had a car, he looked like a star
I said, Hey, don't I know who you are
But when he glanced into my eyes
I saw yes I saw was such a big surprise
He was afraid that he's just a bum
Someday when all his stuff is gone and he's left without a dime
Time ain't money when all ya got is time
And you can see him standin on the corner with a nine-day beard and bright red eyes

I know a guy, he's a pal of mine
I say, hey. He say, I'm doin fine
I'm movin up the ladder, rung rung rung
I'm gonna get my million while I am still young
But at night when he's had a few
His eyes say different than his tongue
They say I'm afraid that I'm just a bum
Someday when all my stuff is gone and I'm left without a dime
Time ain't money when all ya got is time
And I can see me standin on the corner with my nine-day beard and my bright red eyes
Goin hey, hey hey hey hey, come on and listen to my story, hey, hey hey hey hey, ah hey

Some people live to work, work to live
Any little tremble and the earth might give
Ya can't hide it in a Volvo or a London Fog
Can't hide it in a mansion with an imported dog
No matter how we plan and rehearse, we're at pink slip's mercy in a paper universe
And we're afraid that we're just a bum
Someday when all our stuff is gone and we're left without a dime
Time ain't money when all ya got is time
And we can see us standin on the corner with our nine-day beards and our bright red eyes
Goin, hey hey hey hey hey hey hey
Hey hey hey hey, come on and listen to my story man hey, hey hey hey hey, ah hey

The man of sorrow's acquainted with grief
Stands in line waiting for relief
He will tell ya it wasn't always this way
One bad little thing happened one bad little day
Heartbreak has bad teeth and a sour smell and lives when he can in a cheap hotel
And he's afraid that he's just a bum
Someday when all his stuff is gone and he's left without a dime
Time ain't money when all ya got is time
And you can see him standin on the corner with a nine-day beard and bright red eyes
Goin, hey hey hey hey hey hey hey
Hey hey hey hey, come on and listen to my story man hey, hey hey hey hey, ah hey
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 42
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History
Homeless asking for Money....
Posted: 11/1/2010 6:23:53 PM
We spend about 10 times more a year to support corporate welfare whores than we do for social welfare...on actual people who need it. Hell, we even pay them big bucks to send our jobs to child labor, and prison labor sweat shops overseas. Yet Americans are so brainwashed by the corporate controlled media and politicians, taking care of the least among us is somehow a burden, where bailing out corporations and giving them tax breaks is a patriotic duty. We are indeed a sick society in many ways. Please....please...trickle down upon me master....please.

What about those corporate welfare whores, tax cheats, subsidized, anti-free-market types who whine one way and have their hands out the other way? It's really sick when we look at the victims of the system as parriahs, and those that put them there as capitalist gods.
 Padawan61
Joined: 3/1/2008
Msg: 43
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Homeless asking for Money....
Posted: 11/1/2010 7:11:53 PM
What about those corporate welfare whores, tax cheats, subsidized, anti-free-market types who whine one way and have their hands out the other way? It's really sick when we look at the victims of the system as parriahs, and those that put them there as capitalist gods

The difference is that those corporate welfare recipients aren't the ones standing on off-ramps with signs asking for money. If they were ... I'd tell them to get lost too.

Recently, I got two mailings from the political party currently in power here in Canada. They say they need financial support to win the next election. I'll support them with my vote ... but I won't donate money to their campaign. I figure if they're doing their job for the good to the country ... people will vote for them. They don't need my donation to help them win. I suppose political parties asking for money can be viewed as corporate welfare too.

If I had spare cash, I would rather give it to the War Veterans.

Yes... there, but for the grace of God, go I

The "grace of God" cuts both ways. Although "by God's grace" I haven't lost any limbs or home ... at the same time, nothing spectacular or miraculous has happen in my life either as a result of God's "unmerited favor".

If the stranger was a gullible bleeding heart type ...


I've NEVER been called a bleeding heart

Operative word is "gullible".
 Padawan61
Joined: 3/1/2008
Msg: 45
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Homeless asking for Money....
Posted: 11/1/2010 10:45:02 PM
Umm, aren't you judging me?

She probably was judging you. I "love" how some these self-appointed champions for the "marginalized" ... say they don't judge ... but in actuality they do. They just try to do it "under-the-radar" and sound SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much like phonies when they judge us ... who are not on-board with their social conscience. Yeah ... like their "holy" conscience has actually solved any social problems. More like prolonging them.

I will decide who should get my donation dollars ... and I make NO APOLOGIES for it. During these tough economics times, many of us don't have much spare cash anyway. I certainly won't give it to some addict so they can get their next fix when more deserving people could have it ... like the Vets. Even if I had loads of money ... I still won't fund beggars on the streets. I don't have the time to learn about every one their "struggles". If a beggar does tell me of his "struggles" and they happen to involve addictions ... my sympathy drops to zero.

The problem with all these agencies is always the administration!

I've volunteered for a specific organization, and it troubles me that the volunteers work side by side to very well paid people.

Another good reason to withhold money from such agencies.
 Padawan61
Joined: 3/1/2008
Msg: 47
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Homeless asking for Money....
Posted: 11/2/2010 1:05:28 AM
Whenever I’ve volunteered with one large well-known charity in their Head Office, I had to make do with almost no supplies (pens/staples etc.) while sitting on a broken chair with no back, using a version of Windows that was about one release above 3.1.

Habitat For Humanity - $39,305 - $74,242
YMCA - $50,000 - $81,041
Boys and Girls Clubs of America - $30,359 - $64,442
American Red Cross - $38,965 - $78,617
United Way - $40,695 - $82,639

Wow ... I would love to have a job that pays up to $82,639 a year!! That's $39 bucks an hour!! No wonder you are using antiquated software, no supplies and broken chairs when you volunteer. If those charity brasses really cared about what they stand for ... they should take a pay-cut and used those funds for newer software, adaquate supplies and comfortable chairs. But I doubt they'll give up those cosy pay-scales. Even the low-end pay-scales are better than the wages at Wally World. If those charity "officials" don't wanna work for wages less than the private sector ... then go work for an organization that isn't a charity. If workers expect charity wages to be equal to the private sector ... then they are in it for the wrong reasons.

Furthermore, private sectors are not charities. They don't campaign for people's money.

I certainly won't give it to some addict so they can get their next fix when more deserving people could have it ... like the Vets


You did read the part where it was cited that about 20% of homeless are vets, right?

And you did read the part where I said ... at least here in Canada ... there are services set up specifically for War Veterans?? They have every opportunity to access such services. That is why some of us will only donate to them. In fact, here in Calgary ... the Poppy Fund is seeking donations right now ... up to Nov 11 Remembrance Day (what you call Veterans Day in the US). Those donated funds assist Veterans with food, rent subsidies, medical expenses such as dental, eye glasses, wheelchairs and prescription drugs ... over and above government programs.

When I have spare dollars, I write them a check. If a War Vet won't use the services available to them, there's not much I can do. That should take care of those 20% homeless ... more or less. I do agree that the government should be doing more for Veterans. That's what we pay taxes for ... among other things. But government waste could be a reason not enough is being done.

What this is really about, IMO, is not homeless persons, per se, but rather, those of us who are not. If you're not homeless, are you someone who gives, or aren't you?

I will only give to help an established charity for Veterans. It is up to the person to avail themselves. I won't give to someone on the streets no matter who they are because I don't know where the money will end up. If the homeless person happens to be a Vet ... I shall definitely advise them to go take advantage of it.

VVVVVVVV
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 49
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History
Homeless asking for Money....
Posted: 11/2/2010 7:55:45 AM
It is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO easy to judge, huh?

Unless, of course, you've personally and intimately gotten to know "most beggars" and what their struggles are.


It's kind of hard to know most beggars immediately so what you're really saying is that it's impossible to judge anyone who begs. I disagree. But not because I know most beggars intimately. I know some. For example, a couple guys were "victims" of "evil spouses" and instead of making child care payments for the next fifteen years they decided they'd rather drop off the radar and mooch off people and welfare systems in three provinces. Another guy was mad because the only thing he liked to do was beat people up. Didn't have to beg much for his cash. Another girl decided she liked to party more than parent so she dropped out to party. Another guy owed too much in taxes because the government "screwed" him. So he burned and returned stuff at Home Depot all day. He begged to "supplement" his occupation. Lots of others just liked drugs; liked dealing drugs, finding drugs, selling drugs, doing drugs and finding ways to do drugs. They weren't even addicted, just liked the free enterprising lifestyle drugs afforded them.

Around the same time I met these real beggars, the local nightly news had a "focus on the homeless" type of special. They would show a new family every night who was really down on their luck. Dad lost his job, house blew up, kid got sick, mom lost her marbles, car accident left Timmy f'cked up in the hospital, etc. Or some guy moved here with a job lined up, guy gets beat up and robbed while sleeping in his car, lost his steel toed boots to another homeless guy, can't work at his job now. Ex-addict with a criminal past can't get hired because of his record. Okay, now we're getting somewhere. These are the people I want to help. But where are they? Why aren't they out on the street asking for money like the rest of these guys? Because where I live, there's no reason to panhandle. There's enough agency to keep you sheltered, fed, medically treated and get you employed. Our homeless shelter even advertises on tv to try to get people to use its services. The people on the news special, the seriously down trodden, unfortunate, poor souls who deserve a hand, are no where to be seen in panhandling circles. Billy got new boots, Timmy was cured and Dad got training and a new job. It showed how shelter life really sucked, but was very much enough to get these families by without begging. It's a temporary stop. Temporary.

Even if you're not into getting a "normal" life, we have a place downtown called cash corner where guys hang out and wait for employers to pick them up for day labouring. It's 12-15 bucks an hour, cash. I use these guys all the time. There are junkies looking for a fix, barely able to hold a hammer, legit guys who use cash corner to find permanent work and guys who really don't really want to work but don't have much of an option. No matter how hard you beg, it's hard to make a hundred bucks a day at it. Most of these guys manage to rent a room somewhere, eat and drink on what they make there. And it usually turns into steady employment at some point, if that's the goal. I've had guys get in my truck and tell me how "back in the seventies I'd only get work off the corner once a week". The seventies! So even if you want nothing to do with any type of agency in town, you still have the option to write your own rules, work when you want, work at what you want and live off the radar completely. I'll hire these guys all day long and pay them extra if they do a good job, pay them no less than what we agreed on even if they can't work, try to find them stuff to do when I really don't have anything for them and give their names and numbers to other people looking for help. It's not charity, but I'm not into giving money to people who might...might...be the last people in the world I want to give money to. I'm not willing to help in creating permanence out of temporary. If you gave a dollar to some scum bag who doesn't want to pay his child support and rips off Home Depot all day, wouldn't you feel just a bit like a sucker? I mean, given the fact that it's impossible to intimately know most beggars.
 Twilightslove
Joined: 12/9/2008
Msg: 50
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History
Homeless asking for Money....
Posted: 11/2/2010 8:01:42 AM
Homeless Veterans
# Males account for 97-98% of the homeless veteran population
# 56% are African American or Hispanic
# 76% experience alcohol, drug, or mental health problems (inc PTSD)
# 45% suffer from mental illness
# 50% have substance abuse problems
# More than 67% served our country for at least three years
# 33% were stationed in a war zone
# 47% of homeless veterans served during the Vietnam Era
# 17% served after the Vietnam era
# 15% served before Vietnam
These numbers may not accurately reflect the impact of OIF & OEF.
Many of our homeless veterans served in WW II, Korean War, Cold War,
Vietnam War, Grenada, Panama, Lebanon, Operation Iraqi Freedom,
Operation Enduring Freedom, Desert Storm & the military's anti-drug
cultivation efforts in South America.

Comparison to Non-Veteran Homeless
# Homeless vets tend to be older - 46% are age 45 or older
compared to 20% of non-veterans
# Homeless vets are more educated - 85% completed High School
or have a GED compared to 56% of non-veterans
# 46% are white males compared to 34% of non-veterans
Why Veterans Are Homeless

Veterans become homeless & are at risk for homelessness for the same
reasons as non-veterans, including due to the rising foreclosure* and
unemployment rates, as well as due to veteran specific issues. Mental
Health issues (e.g., PTSD, mood disorders & substance use) have been
deemed among the primary risks for homelessness among veterans.**
# Severe shortage of affordable housing, livable income,
& access to health care
# Drug and alcohol abuse problems
# Physical and mental illness
# Combat related physical & mental illnesses (e.g., PTSD)
# Reduction in educational benefits
# Lack of adequate family and social support
The effects of PTSD, including addiction, interpersonal problems & job loss,
were also associated with homelessness. The effects of combat exposure do
not disappear as the years go by. Recent studies reveal that 10% of Vietnam
veterans still suffer from severe PTSD symptoms & that their combat exposure
continues to place them at risk for negative social & psychological consequences.

*Foreclosure rates in military communities increased at four times the national average in early 2008.
**See below for relevant OIF/OEF veteran statistics.

Operation Iraqi Freedom & Operation Enduring Freedom

300 vets who returned from serving in Iraq (OIF) & Afghanistan (OEF) sought
assistance for homelessness between 2004 & 2006. To date, approximately
2,000 OIF & OEF veterans have sought assistance from the DVA homeless
programs. In May 2008 U.S. Medicine reported that at least 1,500 OIF/OEF
vets are homeless & many expect the number to continue to rise. OIF/OEF
vets are becoming homeless sooner after their return from combat than seen
in previous wars. They often have no place to live within 18 months after
coming home, compared to the 10 years on average it took for Vietnam vets.

The NCHV's Iraq Veteran Project & others have reported that OIF/OEF
vets are in serious danger for homelessness & chronic homelessness.
One source reported that in 2007 the DVA had identified more than 1,000
OIF/OEF at risk veterans. In addition to the veteran homelessness
risk factors noted above, they identified the following reasons for this.
# Extended deployment and/or repeated deployment *
# Unemployment - there are three-times as many (15%) unemployed
OIF/OEF veterans ages 20-24 than there are nationally (5%)**
# Familial disruption - around 40% of OIF/OEF veterans are from the
National Guard & Reserve & these families have less access
to support than families of regular service members
*A recent study reported that since 2001 more than 1.6 million US soldiers have
served & many of them had repeated deployments and exposure to combat.
In March 2009 the overall unemployment rate for OIF & OEF
veterans 18 and older was 11.2% (one in nine are jobless)
vs 8.8% for non vets in the same age group.

**According to the DOL, in early 2010 DOL the unemployment rate
among veterans of OIF & OEF ages 18-24 was 21.1% compared
to the national rate of 16.6% for nonvets in the same age group.

http://www.standown.org/homeless.html

As you will notice many of the homeless vets are drug and alcohol abusers and many suffer from PTSD (mental health issues).

I've had ex relatives who were war vets, Vietnam War and I have seen what it did to them although they were fortunate enough to not become homeless they did have the alcohol and/or drug problems. They did have the PTSD and/or other mental health issues and they now are deceased at a much earlier age than the normal population.

I know one war vet today who was in the Iraq war approximately deployed four times. He has had two jobs since coming home. He punched his supervisor square in the face and knocked out the supervisor with his first job and was terminated (he can reapply in 6 months) and he lost the second job within a couple of months. He has since found a woman to move in with in another state and her family has found him a job. He hasn't known this woman or her family long. He doesn't want to move home to his parent's house and with his erratic behavior I'm not sure how they feel about him moving home. They have helped him live on his own for quite some time although I think that is probably placing a large financial burden on them. He was promised the GI bill then not given it after all. He was turned down for mental health services. The army claimed that he did not get this way from serving and so they disqualified him for services. I fear he will end up homeless someday if he doesn't get that help.
 arwen52
Joined: 3/13/2008
Msg: 51
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History
Homeless asking for Money....
Posted: 11/2/2010 9:03:57 AM

Furthermore, private sectors are not charities. They don't campaign for people's money.


Sure they do. It's called advertising. They try to get us to buy stuff we don't want, don't need, is bad for our health, etc. Charities ask us to "buy" food for the hungry, shelter for the homeless, recreation for the kids, etc. Charities have administrative costs but, as was pointed out, in general their salaries are a lot lower than in the private sector. So, I can "buy" shelter for the homeless and the top organizer's salary is $42K. Or I can "buy" fast food burgers and pay for the people at the bottom getting minimum wage and the people at the top getting millions.
 Delete_Me_Please
Joined: 11/10/2009
Msg: 52
Homeless asking for Money....
Posted: 11/2/2010 2:34:27 PM

Popular Employers Salary Range

Habitat For Humanity - $39,305 - $74,242
YMCA - $50,000 - $81,041
Boys and Girls Clubs of America - $30,359 - $64,442
American Red Cross - $38,965 - $78,617
United Way - $40,695 - $82,639


I don't give cash to charities for the same reason I don't give cash to people on the streets: I don't trust them to spend the money in a way that I consider productive.

I became interested in the subject of NPO executive salaries about a decade ago after learning that Elizabeth Dole was earning $250K in her position as head of the Red Cross. Some research turned up that there were numerous people at the Red Cross earning salaries in that range and the pay was similar to other large NPO's. Additionally, I learned that a considerable chunk of their income (somewhere around 40-50%) was being spent on administrative costs. The salaries you posted are what I would consider reasonable salaries but they're not an accurate reflection of the top dollars paid to executives. To me, it's disgusting that charitable dollars are misused in such a way that people like Dole can actually become wealthy.
 Padawan61
Joined: 3/1/2008
Msg: 54
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Homeless asking for Money....
Posted: 11/2/2010 5:07:17 PM
I would love to have a job that pays up to $82,639 a year!!


If you have enough personal influence and resources to attract support to the organization, education, knowledge and experience in the financial, business, and legal aspects of running a large organization with a budget of several million dollars, a quality reputation from those you would serve, the ability to fundraise 7 days a week, and an attitude that reflects your ability to serve your community by supporting the elderly, providing shelter, counseling youth, coaching teams, you can always apply

What you're really saying is that someone should be paid a good salary ... if they have the ability to BS and charm people with pretty speeches about community spirit using catchy slogans like "for a city to be great, it must be great for everyone" ... and able to "cook the books" to magically make $$ disappear in a way as to avoid legal watchdogs. Numerous charities ... from the locals to the large world organizations are quite adept at taking in enormous sums while giving crumbs to the intended recipients. Just check out the ones seeking donations for Haiti, Sri-Lanka or any victims of natural disasters.

That's what charity head-honchos are ... masters at PR bull$hit in order to deceive sheeple into giving them money. It makes me puke (every year) when Calgary's United Way president does her pep talk to rally people to fundraise for her organization. Because I know her underlying motivation is personal gain. The conflict of interest that arises when her pay and bonuses are tied to the donations that the United Way receives. It is because of their reputation ... I won't donate to them. "Fundraising" is just a fancy term for corporate panhandling. They've simply elevated the street practice to make it more palatable to the donor masses.

I would rank charity workers "skills" in the same category as a sanitation "engineer".

Most Directors are already expected to make personal or business contributions (monetary gifts) to the organization’s annual operating needs. Because you can't relate to their work you think they should also pay for office chairs and supplies?

If they're passionate about the work they do to help the community ... then YES. Every little bit helps.

Any charity that can allocate 80% or more of their money directly to those who need it is doing a superb job

You're too generous. I expect charities like the Red Cross to allocate 98% to those needing it for me to consider them doing a good job. Otherwise ...

Furthermore, private sectors are not charities. They don't campaign for people's money


Sure they do. It's called advertising. They try to get us to buy stuff we don't want, don't need, is bad for our health, etc. Charities ask us to "buy" food for the hungry, shelter for the homeless, recreation for the kids, etc

I agree and disagree with you at the same time.

Sure businesses will advertise ... that's how the model works. But you have free will NOT to buy their merchandise. I don't make a purchase unless I decide I really need or want something. Steve Jobs tried to convince everyone to buy the iPad but I saw no need for one. Even if you do accept their advertising and buy stuff you don't need, you're still getting a product or service . What do you get when you donate to a charity?? Not a product or a service. You might say you get a good feeling in helping someone, but all it did was guarantee that same charity will be sending you mailings year after year offering you their "product" of homelessness, poverty or some other agenda ... while they reap their cut of the "sales".

That's the problem with charities these days ... they've taken a page from the business model ... and business models are based on expansion. One would think that if you gave a dollar to a charity in the first year, the following year they should be asking for less. But we all know charities like the United Way have larger and larger campaign goals year after year. They've even put a "marathon-type" spin on it ... convincing gullible donors that the higher campaign goal is a reflection of success. Yeah, right!! Only impressionable people will believe that. Therefore, I don't buy into charity "advertisings".

BTW ... I've worked for technology companies that doesn't advertise to the general public to sell products. They sell to other businesses who come to them with a need of some sort. For example, a power generation company may need a control system for monitoring purposes and they will buy from a manufacturer of such equipment. Thus, not all businesses are the ones you're aware of.

So, I can "buy" shelter for the homeless and the top organizer's salary is $42K. Or I can "buy" fast food burgers and pay for the people at the bottom getting minimum wage and the people at the top getting millions

In either case, you have the person at the bottom getting the crumbs and the person at the top making their (more) comfortable living. If it weren't for the homeless people "product", that charity organizer won't be able to buy his next BMW.
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 55
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Homeless asking for Money....
Posted: 11/3/2010 6:27:08 AM
Well I'll be...


<div class="quote">Eugene Graham gets up before 6 a.m. every morning and normally puts in a seven-hour work day.

He earns $40 to $50 a day and says he feels people respect him for the work he does.

He's a bottle picker, and he's one of a growing number of homeless people in the city choosing work over panhandling, according to a new study commissioned by the Calgary Homeless Foundation.

"I used to panhandle," said Graham, 39. "But I finally decided I got two legs and a heartbeat so I should go out and earn some money.

"And you know, people have more respect for me because I'm not sitting on a corner asking for money."

The homeless foundation initially wanted to study the issue of panhandling as part of the 10-year plan to end homelessness, but found there are only 30 panhandlers active on city streets, compared with about 250 bottle pickers.

There are no statistics to compare those numbers, but interviews conducted with homeless people and social agencies found that fewer street people are begging for money while more are collecting recyclable bottles, cans and milk cartons.

"It's tough to say why panhandling is going down. I think there's a few things," said Tim Richter, president of the homeless foundation.

"One is enforcement. Bylaw tickets are making it too expensive and uncomfortable to panhandle. I also get the sense a number of people that were panhandling are turning to bottle picking and choosing work over begging."

The study found panhandlers earn about $20 a day and potentially up to $80 during special events. They're more likely to have severe health issues and be over 60 years old.

Bottle pickers make about $25 to $40 a day, or $3.50 to $5.75 per hour. They get up as early as 5 a.m., work seven days a week and walk upward of 25 kilometres each day.

"These guys work hard," said Richter.

"This opens our eyes to potential new opportunities because you have people that are homeless and want to work so badly that they're willing to walk 25 kilometres for less than minimum wage.

"So how do we build on that and provide some kind of alternative to bottle picking?"

There's no reason to believe the number of bottle pickers has increased due to recently improved recycling rates or the inclusion of milk cartons in the paid recyclables, said Richter. "There have been bottle pickers as long as there's been recycling."

So far, the city's top bylaw officer said he hasn't seen an increase in the number of issues related to people taking bottles from the new recycling blue bins.

Anyone caught taking items from recycling or garbage bins can be fined $125, but Bill Bruce said he's not aware of anyone receiving a ticket.

He has heard complaints regarding noise from shopping carts in the alleyway and general concerns over safety from homeless people migrating out into the suburbs to pick bottles.

The study focused on 21 "informal recyclers" and six panhandlers. Nearly all had active addiction problems.

On Tuesday, a bottle picker named Steve told the Herald he tries to collect enough recyclables each day to cover a six-pack of beer and a pack of cigarettes.

"I don't do drugs. Booze is my thing," said Steve, 58, who didn't want to give his last name.

"A lot of guys figure they can do this and get enough money for beer or drugs, and they've got free room and board at the drop-in, so they're set."

Richter said addressing addiction issues is a big piece of the puzzle in eliminating homelessness, but with research showing a strong work ethic in the population, a new avenue of attack may be open.

"It's a vicious cycle they're caught in," said Richter. "But if we can attack the problem from three angles -- (affordable housing), addiction and work -- we could make inroads."

Read more: http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Bottle+picking+pays+better+than+begging+Calgary+homeless+discover/3768672/story.html#ixzz14E2OZT9v

Nov 3 Calgary Herald.

Amazing what two legs and a heart beat will do for you.
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 56
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Homeless asking for Money....
Posted: 11/3/2010 6:35:44 AM
Sorry. Itchy trigger finger.
 Lint Spotter
Joined: 8/27/2009
Msg: 58
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Homeless asking for Money....
Posted: 11/3/2010 10:57:42 AM

I saw someone hand them a bag of food from McDonald's and they just sat it down on the ground beside them and continued to hold up their sign. I'm sorry but if you are truly hungry you couldn't have ate that food quick enough.
You're equating hungry with desperate... I don't know of anyone that would take food from a stranger and eat it without wondering if the other person had done something to the food...

Self-preservation trumps hunger.
 sexyisback!
Joined: 9/14/2010
Msg: 59
Homeless asking for Money....
Posted: 11/3/2010 11:03:00 AM
^^


I saw someone hand them a bag of food from McDonald's and they just sat it down on the ground beside them and continued to hold up their sign. I'm sorry but if you are truly hungry you couldn't have ate that food quick enough.
You're equating hungry with desperate... I don't know of anyone that would take food from a stranger and eat it without wondering if the other person had done something to the food...


if paranoid, maybe they should worry that someone may have put some kind of quick-absorbing lotion/cream on money, that might penetrate their skin and kill them or cause various ill effects...?
 Lint Spotter
Joined: 8/27/2009
Msg: 60
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Homeless asking for Money....
Posted: 11/3/2010 11:09:14 AM

if paranoid, maybe they should worry that someone may have put some kind of quick-absorbing lotion/cream on money, that might penetrate their skin and kill them or cause various ill effects...?
Oh come on... it's delusional to think that this kind of stuff never happens. Street people and homeless people are natural victims to sick and twisted individuals... problem is, most of the crimes against them aren't reported because it's not newsworthy until it reaches epidemic proportions.
 Lint Spotter
Joined: 8/27/2009
Msg: 62
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Homeless asking for Money....
Posted: 11/3/2010 11:21:44 AM

The point is the sign said hungry, it didn't say I need money for food.
If we're going to dissect the verbiage of the sign, you also mentioned that it requested work, not a hand out.


I can't think of the numbers of people that have told me, they don't consider McDonalds Food, even fit for human consumption! lol Me, well, I'm, lovin it!


I think of Mickey D's as junk food... that every once in a blue moon I snarf back a Big Mac is a dirty little secret...

 sexyisback!
Joined: 9/14/2010
Msg: 64
Homeless asking for Money....
Posted: 11/3/2010 11:53:19 AM
well this thread has polarized, like most POF threads between those who think giving will contribute to the person's decline ( $$ used for drugs) and the holier-than-thou who think they are morally l superior because they give - or at least, claim they do

ne'er the twain shall meet..
 Lint Spotter
Joined: 8/27/2009
Msg: 67
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Homeless asking for Money....
Posted: 11/3/2010 5:40:28 PM

Intentions are what really count here.
I think it goes deeper than that... granted, intention to help others is always looked upon in a favourable light, but I also believe that it shouldn't be forced on others.

I posted earlier in this thread that I hope to never become so jaded as to walk past a person in need without helping. I meant that more from my point of view of seeing good in things rather than always expecting the worst from another. Of course we all need to ensure our personal safety and well being in life, I just think there are times that we also need to rely on others for a little bit of help as well.

I'm a huge fan of the movie, Pay It Forward. I think there's a lesson in that for all of us...

In the end, help if you want, walk by if you want, just don't kick someone while they're down...
 Padawan61
Joined: 3/1/2008
Msg: 68
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Homeless asking for Money....
Posted: 11/3/2010 8:14:07 PM
What you're really saying is that someone should be paid a good salary


That’s not what I wrote at all. People are generally paid “labour market value.” What’s difficult to understand about that? Even though you might think you’re worth that 80K+ job, you won’t earn it unless you can demonstrate to someone that you’re actually worth it. Being able to employ someone at a bargain basement rate doesn’t necessarily mean that person will provide value to your organization. Case in point - I would NOT want to be operated on by a surgeon who only asked the hospital to pay him $50K per year

If you're gonna quote something ... quote the entire thing and debate that, not just the first portion of it.

You made a bunch of fancy talk about a charity honcho's personal influence to attract support to the organization coupled with the "education, knowledge, and experience" in financial, business and legal area.

I said the charity fatcat is being paid a good salary for his/her ability to BS and charm people with pretty speeches and catchy slogans ...

There's nothing difficult at all to understand "labor market value", but putting on fancy fundraising events and campaigning for people's money with a bunch of slick talk about getting involved in community spirit is of no value at all except to the bottom line of the charity and the ultimate personal benefit of the CEO and their staff.

A specialized surgeon has merit and is able to demand a good price for operating on YOU. A charity president is nothing but a master bull$hiter (as stated before).

If, in the example of Elizabeth Dole, you are able to provide a 75% ROI (based on her $250,000 salary and $1,000,000 donation made to the Red Cross), then you have proven to be worth your salary, even if you do sweet bugger all for the rest of the year. Are you managing to achieve 75% ROI in your own investment portfolio?

ROI in a charity?? You kidding right?? Charities have zero ROI considering that the social problems they profess to be tackling are growing year after year. In the case of the Red Cross, they magically made millions disappeared from the donations to Haiti. A friend of mine made such a donation ... only to find that 33% went to Haiti and 67% evaporated into the charity ether.

There's "return on investment" for the charity's business bottom line perhaps ... but true ROI is to the donor ... not the charities' coffers. Dole was able to help the Red Cross BS their way into a cool million bucks so they paid her $250,000 (of it) for her BS ability.

Put another way ... charities have no money other than what donors have entrusted to them. That phony ROI you're talking about is really the difference between what the charity swindled from donors and what they paid the slicking talking PR bull$hiter (they call a CEO) to make that swindle for them.

I love to see how (in your personal life) you can convince a family member to loan you $100,000 and their return is $25,000 ... which came from their own $100,000.

Wow!! Warren Buffet, you are not.

I would rank charity workers "skills" in the same category as a sanitation "engineer"


This is common coping mechanism used by people to elevate their own opinion of themselves and their worth – by devaluing whole segments of society that they consider to be beneath them

Incorrect assumption about coping with personal worth. I'm NOT an engineer, software developer, scientist or specialized surgeon, but I value those professions above all others ... especially over the lowly charity worker. Charity people are nowhere near the worth of a good doctor. You'll know what I mean when you're reclined on the operating table waiting for a skilled surgeon to come by to sew you up ... more than you would want some charity person asking for a contribution to their pension plan while your spleen is hanging out.

I've never trusted anyone whose job it is to convince others to give them money.

Corporate panhandlers are just the better dressed versions of the ones on off-ramps with signs. Instead of tattered and soiled street clothes with homemade signs, the corporate ones are dressed in fancy monkey suits, drives around in the company car with juicy expense accounts. Their signs are professionally made by sign companies to display the organization logo. All this on the donor's dime. Using donor's money to advertise to donors ... what a concept!!

You're too generous. I expect charities like the Red Cross to allocate 98% to those needing it for me to consider them doing a good job


For-profit business doesn’t even achieve an efficiency rating of 98%, neither does the car you drove to work today, nor does any part of your metabolism, to put things into perspective

For-profit businesses aren't the ones banging on people's door with mailings for public donations.

To further put things into perspective, donating 98 percent of all funds to donors would require that virtually every member of an NPO be an unpaid volunteer working from home. It would also require that they donate their own supplies, and that all their suppliers donate their supplies

The highlighted portion of your post went wonky if you read it again, but I got the gist of it. That's exactly what I want from charities before I will donate to them ... but not charities for the homeless though.

The majority of Canadian charities are small, grassroots organizations that are governed by volunteers and, in may cases, run by volunteers. Over 40% of charities have no staff at all. About half of all charities in Canada have annual revenues of less than $50,000

So we have no problems with the small charities run by volunteers. We just have to do something about the giant bloodsuckers like Red Cross, World Vision, United Way ... to name a few.

Of course charities could be more efficient if the money simply fell out of the sky and into their laps, but that clearly isn’t the case. Charities must demonstrate a NEED to the public

Charities not only have to demonstrate a need ... they must keep the mandate that donors have set for them ... based on the donor's money. Clearly many haven't done so. They could be more efficient if they didn't treat their organizations like the private sector ... having to attract "talent" to fundraise for them. See argument directly below.

If you don’t spend any money on fundraising, guess what? You get very little if any donations

Untrue. If charities were actually reducing the social problems they set out to, more people will donate because they see a light at the end of the tunnel. However, when charities have questionable pay practices and the ability to make donations magically evaporate, their reputation precedes them. How much money does United Way or World Vision have to spend on fundraising anyway?? We all know about them and their mission. They are huge and constantly in the news. They don't have to spend money to mail letters to donors IF they were doing a good job ... working themselves out of a job. But no ... they must campaign for dollars because they're doing lousy work and people like me are suspicious of them.

This is similar to any start-up business where money rolls out before it can roll in. In order to get any idea off the ground you need capable staff. That’s true for any business, is it not?

Charities should never be a business like the private sector. A true business is FOR PROFIT, but charities are suppose to be NON-PROFIT. You just don't get that do you??

Actually, the charitable model is built on ROI

Actually it's not. Based on the true definition of ROI ... return on investment should be for the donor ... not the charitable organization's bottom line. But then, you don't understand true ROI. I don't think you should apply for a job with any investment firm. I'd hate to have you screw up my portfolio.

One would think that if you gave a dollar to a charity in the first year, the following year they should be asking for less


I’d love to hear the logic behind this answer. Please indulge moi. Did you approach your own employer and explain that, since you've paid down your mortgage last year, you would now require LESS salary?

I anticipated that request and already had something written up before you asked the question.

If charities were able to deliver their mandate of solving social issues, the need for their services should be on the decline as the years go by ... i.e. they should be working themselves out of a job. Instead we are treated to more of the same because they haven't solved anything at all ... but simply maintained the status quo.

I have no interest in sustaining the salaries of charity workers themselves but you seem to be under the impression that I do. If a donor gave them money to solve homelessness, the organization is expected to solve it. Not just maintain its levels and come looking for a bigger slice of the pie next year.

The salary that an employer pays me does NOT come from asking people for donations. The money comes from the products sold to businesses in need of such products.

Do you get logic now or is the concept over your head?? Read carefully before you answer.

Your company is still advertising to SOMEONE, because we know that money isn’t otherwise falling into their laps out fo the sky either

Advertising yes. But if the businesses they're advertising to had no need for the products ... they won't buy. So what's your point?? The previous poster was talking about companies who advertise their products to the general public ... like Coca Cola. I doubt Boeing or Lockheed Martin will be putting up ads for you to buy their jets anytime soon.

In either case, you have the person at the bottom getting the crumbs and the person at the top making their (more) comfortable living. If it weren't for the homeless people "product", that charity organizer won't be able to buy his next BMW


This would be a far more accurate observation were it directed towards the private sector. It should come as no surprise to you that executive salaries and compensation are way out of line, especially when compared to the salaries of workers in the same company. The average executive makes over 200 times the wages of his/her lowest paid staff member

It was directed at both the private sector and the so-called "non-profit". From your not so clever use of ROI (above) ... those top executives in both private and "non-profit" are getting hugh salaries for their ability to "make money for the company" with BS strategies. Dole was successful in bringing in donations to the Red Cross. Her company was NOT very successful in using the money that donors have entrusted to them.

What has ALWAYS irked me, is the "Non Profit" label. I seem to see that the employees and even the recipients in some cases of these organizations seem to profit VERY handsomely indeed!

Handyman ... I couldn't have said it better myself.

Thanks dougie for those enlightening statistics. That $651,957 could've purified a bit MORE water in Haiti or bandaged up a few MORE broken limbs. Moreover, that $1,200,000 could've benefited some poor Third World orphan.

Pisses me off that those highly paid charity fatcats and their champions like CheshireCatalyst can even sleep at night. She tries to defend charities' need to attract so-called "talent" as the reason for such obscene salaries. Yeah ... talent to be bloodsucking leeches. A ROLLS ROYCE even!! I hope that UNICEF CEO burns in hell!!

^^ Sorry, read the Snopes article on your "mostly urban legend stats"

I've read it and the numbers are still obscene. Your link hasn't changed my views.

I think it is far better to assist someone than to decline help based on some thought that they may not spend it wisely. If we really look at ourselves, we spend money on all kinds of kooky things

I'm not giving money to help make some charity president rich with a nice comfy pension plan. I'd rather use the money to buy that large flatpanel HDTV with a 7.1 surround sound system. If I'm gonna spend money on "kooky" things ... as you say ... it shall be for my benefit and not a charity CEO's.
 Twilightslove
Joined: 12/9/2008
Msg: 70
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Homeless asking for Money....
Posted: 11/4/2010 7:42:34 AM
Not every non-profit is alike and some are actually making a good difference such as this one below:

http://www.lighthousefortheblind.org/articles/view/about-us-4bbe382d-7828-4990-a97f-01989bf0d2c8

I worked for them in the very beginning. I can assure you that I made a wage that was in line with any for profit business at that time. I was a supervisor for incoming (mail in) donations. They do make much of their money from the sale of products that are assembled by blind individuals and those blind individuals are paid for their labor.

I think that you have to look individually at the non-profits that you are thinking about donating to before making a decision. Some benefit the recipient more than others and like the one above some teach those recipients employable skills and employee them. If there were more non-profits that utilized the recipients abilities there might be less homeless individuals.

I think part of the problem with homelessness though is the lack of affordable housing. At present, those who rent are paying a rent that includes the cost of property taxes for the owner. On commercial property that is quite a chunk of change. Even if someone is renting a home the property taxes are much higher as the property does not qualify for the homesteading exemption if used as rental property.

Additionally: If a food doesn't biodegrade sitting around for 5 years or more(Such as Micky D's) then why should a homeless person feel the need to eat it anymore than I would feel the need? When I think about a food that doesn't break down outside it makes me leery of eating it.
 Lint Spotter
Joined: 8/27/2009
Msg: 74
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Homeless asking for Money....
Posted: 11/4/2010 11:23:04 AM

Uh no it's not. God is my protector and I know he'd protect me from danger.
Like he protected you from being homeless if you were in that position?
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