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 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 3
Mental Attitude and Dating Success or FailurePage 3 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)
I was talking to friends about this last night. I know people who start this crap every Halloween where they go on and on about how they're single AGAIN for another holiday season. Don't even get me started on the word "alone" which seems to get used to mean "single" a lot when it's not even close to the same thing.

Being single is part of life, like being involved - yet a lot of people are programmed by the media, from marketing, from Disney movies, from their parents and elders in some cases, that single is bad and not single is good. That it's a punishment to be single. That when single you are one of the ones who's missing something others were granted, that you are unfortunate.

So people make a mission out of trying to be not single so much that it becomes a vicious circle where they are miserable and count every minute until it's over, like a jail sentence - and in the process, they repel actual prospects that ironically might help end their singleness if they were in a better state of mind. It would be better that they count blessings for what they have in life and date IF and WHEN they meet someone they are inspired to date...but most are too obsessed with having something they think they can't live without now that they'll never be able to pull it off.
 trinity818
Joined: 9/1/2006
Msg: 4
Mental Attitude and Dating Success or Failure
Posted: 11/26/2010 7:57:19 AM

given how women are completely screwed up today when it comes to dating, and the fact that 90 to 95% of them only go after piece of shit losers, i'd say being single or alone or whatever you wanna call it is a blessing.


I'm sorry dude. I really don't mean to go after you....but this is exactly what she is talking about. I'm sorry if 90 - 95 % has been your experience. Those are really bad odds. I don't know if things are worse in your geographic area, but I don't believe for one minute that is accurate for the general population.
 WaywardWynde
Joined: 5/19/2007
Msg: 6
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Mental Attitude and Dating Success or Failure
Posted: 11/26/2010 8:25:28 AM
If single life at age 22 could be likened to a bag of marbles, 85 white ones and 15 yucky purple ones ...

... we would find that by about age fifty, 80 of those marbles are paired -- at any given moment -- up with a mate the first time or second or third or whatever.

Of the 85 white marbles, most mated up with another white marble, and most stayed mated with that white marble. Of those that de-mated, most re-mated with another white marble.

Of the 15 yucky purple marbles, some mated with a white marble, some mated with another yucky purple marble and some did not mate at all, although many, many tried.

Of the purple marbles who mated (with a white marble or other purple marble) a higher percentage de-mated.

What that means is that of the 15 purple marbles in the marble bag at age 22, most were unmated at any given point in time. By age fifty, 12 of the original 15 yucky purples are indeed single, while only 8 of the original white marbles are single AT THAT TIME. (White marbles move from singlehood to matedhood at a more frequent rate than purple marbles do.)

WHICH MEANS the marble bag of single fifty year olds is rather purple in color, with 60% purple marbles and 40% white marbles, compared to "the old days".

Purple marbles tend to get to be rather more experienced in "presenting well" in the singles scene compared to the (at any moment) white marbles, mainly because they, the purples, generally have so much more experience in the single scene. Still purpleness tends to show.
 _TALL_IQ2_
Joined: 2/10/2010
Msg: 7
Mental Attitude and Dating Success or Failure
Posted: 11/26/2010 8:57:28 AM
IS it possible to find someone when someone has these strong attitudes, or am I not being rair thinking they really can't?


Being rair, is very rare today.. When it is YOU who are the common denominator in your dating results, then it is YOU who can affect a change in yourself or your behavior for different results...

What may work best is getting OUT and active in your local special interest social groups, make real friends there over time without the high expectations of "dating" someone..


They are gunshy and assume the worst when talking to someone because they know "it won't matter anyways; it will just be "another one of those dead end time wasters"


Talk about self-fulfilling prophecies... Try the opposite tack.. Assume the BEST until proved otherwise and likely YOUR results will improve my dear...
 StarshipNarrator
Joined: 6/30/2010
Msg: 10
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Mental Attitude and Dating Success or Failure
Posted: 11/26/2010 3:20:30 PM

Is anyone out there at all attracted to someone who goes through the motions expecting the worst, or someone taking their frustrations out on an entire gender because they have been frustrated by their treatment of a couple or pattern of interaction with more?


I'm certainly not attracted to that. In my locality my search is literally filled to the brim with women who are 'tired of games' and often complain in their profiles about it. Dating/relationships are a two-way street so I never think that the woman is totally innocent with the blame fully on the men she's dated. Therefore, those women must be doing something wrong there. Perhaps they saw a red flag and didn't stop there but gave him a chance to reveal more of his 'real colors'. Maybe the guy is being totally genuine but she perceives his actions and words as 'games' when in reality they're just not on the same wavelength. Or, maybe he did tap dance on her heart but she needs to broadcast her baggage online as a way to cope with it (you never know how someone will cope with something).

I also try to keep in mind people's intents. Sometimes people just fail to make their intents known from the get go. There's all this 'going with the flow' horseshit when deep down one person wants to be 'just friends' when the other person wants to bone them. When you don't know someone's true intent you can be tempted to believe they're 'playing games'.

Now, I still find a woman who cannot be single for 60 seconds to be unattractive no matter if she has baggage or not. I just see it as them trying to prove something or show off to the world that they're 'spoken for'. They're a bit more difficult to spot since there's little to no indication that they've been shitted on if they have been at all.
 forums1
Joined: 2/14/2010
Msg: 11
Mental Attitude and Dating Success or Failure
Posted: 11/26/2010 3:24:42 PM
Its funny MBL, I see so much of that on these forums it really makes one wonder. I'm kinda with WIP on that one, I really don't mind being single - I would *like* to find someone 'special' to share life with, but its not 'desperation' by any means.

To me I don't get the hostility - everyone is different, its certainly not going to 'click' with everyone you meet, and if it doesn't they are an 'evil' person I some emotional baggage onto a 'chip on my shoulder' for. Yet some people seem to just want to keep piling up weight on that chip, making themselves more and more 'unattractive' for having it there, and adding another few pounds of 'chip' when they get rejected for it.

I suppose if anything, any 'frustration' I have focuses more around 'life' than people - y'know, we all have jobs... I spent Thanksgiving with a good (female) friend who invited me over for dinner, we talked relationships a bit... her job has her flying all over (Atlanta for the week next week, twice to Australia this year for 3 weeks each time, out to India for 3 weeks)... sounds nice, but it can be hard on a relationship - she's traveling easily 50% of the year. I got hammered M-W this week, worked until 11pm monday, and late the other 2 nights as well... although I'm single, sometimes "life" can get in the way. But I've found most people understand it, because they have their own responsibilities and jobs, and y'know - you do what you can.

Hanging onto resentments and anger really doesn't hurt anyone more than it hurts you, in the long run.
 VacationGuy234
Joined: 8/1/2008
Msg: 14
Mental Attitude and Dating Success or Failure
Posted: 11/26/2010 8:05:24 PM

My question is; when someone is at the point of feeling this way and they keep trying to put themselves out there, CAN they find anyone? To me, it seems like it feeds the cycle; makes them MORE depressed, angry, hostile or cynical.


Obviously, if you are not at the top of your game, it makes it harder to find someone. However, if we could look at the hard numbers, I think we would find that the majority have already taken a break at that point, they don't date as much. What you are hearing is the their attitudes after dating or during the break. We all go through times when we feel we have had enough and take a break from dating. It is rare that people proceed at a high rate when they are experiencing depression. Can you find anyone during this time? Sure. Are the chances less it will last? Of course. However, I would argue that the key component to dating is timing. And, timing is not something you can control. It's like two flower shaped pin wheels, each with one petal marked, it will take many turns before these petals are aligned.

Telling them to take a break is good advice and to be sure very much needed, but, in my opinion, incomplete. The definition of insanity is someone doing the same thing over and over while expecting a different result. It would be better served to suggest changes than to suggest recursion. Perhaps they are overweight, underweight, introverted, anti social, without good communication skill all of which changes are needed so that when the pin wheels are aligned things will be different. If being yourself worked, everyone would be dating and there would be no need for the forums.

Life isn't easy, you can do everything right and still fail. However, on the bright side, it is a rare person indeed who fails are everything. There is always a bright side..
 Write Time
Joined: 12/29/2008
Msg: 15
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Mental Attitude and Dating Success or Failure
Posted: 11/27/2010 4:37:32 AM
I think you're spot-on.

If someone brings a bad, jaded attitude toward dating, then what can they expect to attract but similarly-minded people? Hardly a recipe for relationship success.

But go into it with a healthy, positive atttitude, then you're more likely to attract healthy, positive people.

And, yeah, if you're not in that healthy, positive mindset, it's best to walk away for a while and recharge. Come back later when it all feels a little fresher. I've done that, and it makes a world of difference.
 femaleconnection
Joined: 8/12/2010
Msg: 16
Mental Attitude and Dating Success or Failure
Posted: 11/27/2010 4:52:33 AM
Ones mental attitude will affect the outcome of pretty much anything one attempts.

Of course if one is a sourpuss about the oppsite sex, they wont attract quality people...they will attract negative ones like themselves, and feel justified in thier anger towards opposite sex...but they just dont have the knowledge that they are causing these things to happen by making the poor choice to keep doing what doesnt work. I think some actually like being in this state...you tell them what they are doing wrong, and they dont wanna hear it.

Time away from dating to gain a fresh attitude, discover yourself some...is a great thing to do when you realise it aint working. Always turn the mirror to yourself when things are not working...then get back in the game after time spent adjusting and healing.

Worked for me anyhow.
 colt8301
Joined: 10/25/2006
Msg: 17
Mental Attitude and Dating Success or Failure
Posted: 11/27/2010 5:50:30 AM

My question is; when someone is at the point of feeling this way and they keep trying to put themselves out there, CAN they find anyone? To me, it seems like it feeds the cycle; makes them MORE depressed, angry, hostile or cynical.




The best thing for people who feel that way is take a step back and let other people go on their paths respectively. Can they find someone? Maybe, maybe not cynicism is slow burning fire and it can consume them and every one else around them.
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 18
Mental Attitude and Dating Success or Failure
Posted: 11/27/2010 7:29:31 AM

Ones mental attitude will affect the outcome of pretty much anything one attempts.

Man, isn't this the truth! In life, in your job, with your friends, at the gym, ever minute of the day, your mindset makes a huge difference in how you travel your path. Ideally, it's a good thing to do to just be happy you're alive and have the basics when you wake up daily and realize all else is just trivial. Then do what you can to improve and love yourself and those you encounter daily. The rest really does fall into place.

Of course if one is a sourpuss about the oppsite sex, they wont attract quality people...they will attract negative ones like themselves, and feel justified in thier anger towards opposite sex...but they just dont have the knowledge that they are causing these things to happen by making the poor choice to keep doing what doesnt work.

Exactly. To put it simply, I never understood profiles with people seeking dating who to be blunt, clearly don't like the opposite sex, or appear to be very angry with the entire gender they're seeking to connect with. I don't understand how they expect that to work. No one in that gender is going to catch that vibe and WANT to sign up for the abuse - and no matter how much someone thinks how they feel is hidden, it permeates their conversation, their text, their body language, everything.

You have to at least like the gender you want to date, if not people in general. Am I wrong?
 DrummingNut
Joined: 4/26/2010
Msg: 19
Mental Attitude and Dating Success or Failure
Posted: 11/27/2010 7:51:20 AM

If single life at age 22 could be likened to a bag of marbles, 85 white ones and 15 yucky purple ones ...

... we would find that by about age fifty, 80 of those marbles are paired -- at any given moment -- up with a mate the first time or second or third or whatever.

Of the 85 white marbles, most mated up with another white marble, and most stayed mated with that white marble. Of those that de-mated, most re-mated with another white marble.

Of the 15 yucky purple marbles, some mated with a white marble, some mated with another yucky purple marble and some did not mate at all, although many, many tried.

Of the purple marbles who mated (with a white marble or other purple marble) a higher percentage de-mated.

What that means is that of the 15 purple marbles in the marble bag at age 22, most were unmated at any given point in time. By age fifty, 12 of the original 15 yucky purples are indeed single, while only 8 of the original white marbles are single AT THAT TIME. (White marbles move from singlehood to matedhood at a more frequent rate than purple marbles do.)

WHICH MEANS the marble bag of single fifty year olds is rather purple in color, with 60% purple marbles and 40% white marbles, compared to "the old days".

Purple marbles tend to get to be rather more experienced in "presenting well" in the singles scene compared to the (at any moment) white marbles, mainly because they, the purples, generally have so much more experience in the single scene. Still purpleness tends to show.


Geeeze.. and my name here is oldladypurple!
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 26
Mental Attitude and Dating Success or Failure
Posted: 11/30/2010 9:46:05 AM

Fantastic! This was pretty much exactly what I wanted to talk about. You guys are way ahead of me.

I am definitely the cynical, bitter, "dating-sux," guy y'all are talking about here. I haven't been on an honest-to-goodness date in about 4 years, and not for lack of trying...and not-trying.

You know what? Sometimes you don't date for a few years - it does happen. There are times in our lives where we don't. I think programming that we get from childhood teaches us we're missing something or less of a person if we're not. That's BS.

For the past (xx number of) years I've gone through periods where I try to lay off and not look for someone with the "you'll find her when you're not looking" mentality, and periods where I put a lot of effort into finding someone, and then back and forth, and back and forth, and back and forth. Neither one has actually worked for me...like, at all.

Well the not looking thing never works, if don't you do it right. If you don't look because you genuinely want to focus elsewhere and recharge, or you just don't care to date unless/until you meet someone that you click with and want to, that's one thing. Not looking hoping it will get you a date isn't really not looking, so naturally it doesn't work. If you genuinely don't care the results won't phase you. If you do care, then you're not really following the correct mindset, no?

Judging by my last forum entry here, I've been in the apply-absolutely-no-effort mode for about a year, and that has been fine. I'm part of the music scene in my community, I'm an amateur concert/comedy promoter, I play and sing in two bands, and a solo thing. I'm keeping pretty busy, and I can be reasonably sure that at any venue I play or promote at, there really isn't much likelihood of any women to meet. I've kept myself in something of a sterile environment. Sad but true, but again, I've been cool with that. All things considered, it's been a nice, albeit lonely, 12 or so months. I have had a reasonable measure of happiness I think, but again, lonely. I realize it's a good temporary thing, not a way to live my life.

Again, the lonely thing comes from programming. When you have plenty of friends, activities, a full schedule and you're doing things that inspire you in life, and you're lonely - it's because you've been trained to think you should be.

Then today, someone made an off-hand comment while (I assume) she thought I was out of the room about how I was "ugly," while telling another co-worker how handsome he is (although I don't think she realizes he's gay). When you get down to it, knowing that I am pretty much seen as the real-life version of quasimodo is my biggest, and maybe only, insecurity. For some reason, it sent me into that familiar spiral of how I was going to be alone forever, nobody would ever love me, blah blah blah, yadda yadda yadda. Don't get me wrong, I have a mirror, and I'm not delusional: I know how people see me. I've been actually working at not thinking about my date-less situation, and I was rather violently reminded.

That, without a doubt was uncalled for. And makes the person who said it pretty "ugly". Truth is we're ALL ugly as sin, or the best thing since sliced bread depending on the person looking. But in the end, it's how we see ourselves that matters. Before you go to bed, you are the one you have to be ok with - if you're not, then naturally you want to do things to improve yourself so that you're happy.

So okay, such people are essentially undateable. That's not exactly a shock, that's why I've been a dating-hermit. Realistically, how do I fix it? Or can I? I mean, it seems to me that the antidote to a mindset brought on by a string of negative experiences would at least have to start with a positive experience...which by all accounts isn't likely to happen. Basically, I have my actual, personal experience: My own reality. How am I supposed to override that?

More BS. No one is "undateable". I have seen some people date one after the other, and have been baffled at why. Bad manners, poor hygeine, things that should be off the radar like 5 kids, homeless, drunk beyond ability to function, etc. Most people (and you are no doubt one of them as am I) are not top of the pile or the worst ever - and it's our vibe, our attitude, our overall presentation beyond appearance that makes or breaks us. Sure some won't find us attractive no matter what we do. I truly believe though that when we start thinking we're no good, and that no one wants us that we start creating that reality for ourselves. And unless/until we TRULY come out of that mindset and become more positive, and REALLY stop caring who wants us - we can't say it's not our outlook on things that's keeping us from moving forward.

I think the word "damaged" was used above. Is that where I'm at now?

It's possible. Honestly we all are to some extent - it's how we deal with it and where we go once it happens that is the bottom line.
 WaywardWynde
Joined: 5/19/2007
Msg: 35
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Mental Attitude and Dating Success or Failure
Posted: 11/30/2010 5:58:44 PM
^^^Fat and ugly men CAN be charming. (Didn't the news recently have a story about a fat and ugly woman who married twenty or so young, healthy soldiers and Marines over a period of time, never mind she told them some story about she was soon to "inherit" some substantial amount of money?)

*IF* THEY -- the fat and ugly -- are willing to accept the "broken wing birds" THEY, like every other man on the planet, can have a widely varying love life.

However, "charming a broken wing bird" is not only a LOT of work, they -- the charmers -- also in the end have to put up with "a broken wing bird".

Are there enought broken wing birds to meet the demand? Yeah, it seems so.
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 39
Mental Attitude and Dating Success or Failure
Posted: 11/30/2010 7:30:24 PM
It does feed the cycle. When rejected too much, it makes someone want to know QUICKER whether they're wanted in the long run or not. That pushes people away more, and it just adds to it. They have hissy fits about the whole thing because they can't get what they want and they're not going to be open to changing their view & acceptance on things and work with what they got for the best.

BTW: "playing games" most of the time means they aren't that into you, but you're really into them. It's just basically rejection where the person doesn't like rejecting people flat-out. But if they did, in the end, it wouldn't make the depressed person feel better anyway.

For those types of people, they need to lay off the dating scene altogether. Some try to go the "friends first" route on a matchmaking site, which doesn't do much for them, because that's playing games, too -- because they don't want to be just friends but saying they are. They just need a multi-month breather and to chill and find other things to fulfill them. Many folks suffering from this are needy-for-relationship folk.
 WaywardWynde
Joined: 5/19/2007
Msg: 40
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Mental Attitude and Dating Success or Failure
Posted: 11/30/2010 8:43:14 PM
jer, don't give up your day job. comedy writing isn't all that well paying, and most who attempt it don't make as much money as an 87 year old Wal-Mart greeter working parttime.
 trinity818
Joined: 9/1/2006
Msg: 64
Mental Attitude and Dating Success or Failure
Posted: 1/22/2011 7:57:58 AM

I wish you were dead.


Dude. Get a grip. You are oozing negativity from every pore. You are not hideous. Your only problem is you. Don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. I've LIVED it. I've been that depressed, negative person who just wants to die. You can choose to do something about it or not. It's your life to do as you will with it.

Personally, when I was so depressed I wanted to die, nothing anyone said made a difference to me. I isolated myself for 4 YEARS! I tried several anti-depressants and counseling. Nothing helped. Granted. There was a very specific reason for my depression. One day I woke up and decided enough was enough. I have too many years left on this earth to feel this bad for all of them.

Anything you do for yourself will help you get started on a better path. If you don't care about you, nobody else is going to.
 forums1
Joined: 2/14/2010
Msg: 65
Mental Attitude and Dating Success or Failure
Posted: 1/23/2011 10:38:44 AM
I go out on each new date with a clean slate, totally open to the new person without any preconceived notions that "this guy will be just like the rest". It's really frustrating to find out the new date you have is already judging you or thinking you're not going to like him.


Either that, or they're thinking they're the best thing since sliced bread and you should be "honored" they chose to go on a date with you. Either extreme is unattractive. And the expectations - some people are full of just off the wall (to me) expectations.

They're just another person, as am I, both of us with our good points and flaws. The point of dating is to figure out if you can deal with their 'unique' (and we are all unique in our own ways) personality over time.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 66
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Mental Attitude and Dating Success or Failure
Posted: 1/23/2011 10:58:24 AM
Another side to this:
Different people have to go through different experiences, to learn the SAME lessons as others. Therefore it's not really possible sometimes, to say that one path or another is the only way to go.
As for whether someone with a sour sense pervading them SHOULD get out of dating until they feel better...I expect that most of the time, they could benefit from that, but the trouble is, that many times we CAN'T learn to improve our outlook on life, while we are purposely isolating ourselves. Learning that others CAN be trusted, requires INTERACTING WITH OTHERS. It is true that by far, most attempts to keep dating while suffering depression about dating, will have less than stellar results, but like unpleasant exercise, it is also a necessary part of the healing.
I accept that we all will play parts in each others lives that are occasionally less than wonderful. Even though I try not to, I will sometimes be a bad experience for someone else, just as they will be for me. This is how we learn from each other.
I have been through bouts of sourness more than once. Coming out of it was EASIER when I was interacting with others, than when I was busy REINFORCING my erroneous ideas, while isolating myself. When I DID go off by myself, I tended to get MORE depressed from loneliness, and each deeper level of depression tended to convince me that I was getting LESS attractive, and LESS capable of dealing with others every day. Part of getting back to reality, was going out and failing again, but in each failure, finding that there was still something GOOD in me that the person who ended up rejecting me, found nice ENOUGH to let me get however close I did. Even as I DID fail, knowing that my own depression was part of why I was failing, I still managed to make incremental progress back again.
So again, either path has it's values, and it's problems.
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 67
Mental Attitude and Dating Success or Failure
Posted: 1/23/2011 11:07:38 AM
^^^Igor, while I agree with you that isolating yourself when you're not in the best mindset is counterproductive (if you want to be social that is, some like isolation and don't care to socialize and aren't hurting anyone) in the way of dating, I don't agree that dating in particular is a form of socialization that is helpful in that situation.

There are a number of other ways to socialize while not in a great dating mindset that should be explored like activities, hobbies or community things that involve others, spending time with friends or family, or just getting out there with the intention ONLY of meeting and learning about other people in general. In fact, people who are soured on dating tend to believe that no other people in their lives are as important as someone they'd be dating, which only makes isolation from everyone more likely because they feel that everyone else is a waste of their time.

I don't agree that dating is the opposite of isolation, I guess. I always believed that romantic is only one of a ton of ways one can spend time with other people. And not looking at every other human being you cross paths with as someone who'd date you or not is sort of a narrow viewpoint, when there's so much more to life and the world.
 DocElffington
Joined: 1/20/2009
Msg: 73
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Mental Attitude and Dating Success or Failure
Posted: 1/30/2011 5:37:18 PM
I feel as though I've endured an exercise in rhetorical questions.

I mean, I think the OP was asking questions she already knows the answers to.
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 75
Mental Attitude and Dating Success or Failure
Posted: 2/4/2011 11:53:15 AM
Yes, I do think that it hard to keep the fire and passion going after being unsuccessful for too long at this on-line-dating (OLD) stuff. There's so much rejection and disappointment to be had by all...

I see some of this as having the same expectations as real life...in real life that spark is there almost before we ask for the date....we've talked verbally and non-verbally...our bodies already know we're interested...

On-line we're going by a picture and the written and verbal skills of the other...not necessarily are these things accurate barometers..in fact they are very inaccurate measures of interest....yet we allow ourself to set up some sort of expectation that is based in fiction...a picture, a profile, a few words.

In real life...we probably are in contact (thru work, the grocery store, walking down the street...) with lots...hundreds...thousands??? of the opposite sex before we actually become interested in one enough to attempt the questiion of a date....on-line we see a picture and start to write a note of interest...yet, we still have some of the same expectations as we have IRL...

So, my suggestion on how to not become burnt out on this friggin OLD stuff...is to not expect anything but to try and have fun...if it's a coffee...have a nice cup of joe and talk to the stranger in front of you...you don't have to spill the horrors of your life story...but, keep it light and just laugh...especially at yourself...cause ya gotta laugh at yourself for doing something as foolish as internet dating...
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 77
Mental Attitude and Dating Success or Failure
Posted: 2/4/2011 6:30:05 PM

Mine was more just non expectation; and turns out I was pleasantly surprised when I least expected it.

Best frame of mind to be in, IMOf you expect nothing, you don't care if you get nothing - and it's nice if something happens, but you're not banking your fate or self worth on it, and since you don't expect anything, you're not paying much attention to it. It's really a win win.

Something will happen regardless if you are social,and enjoy people in general. When you focus and/or try too hard on finding a mate you can cause it to elude you, and cause you frustration because you're watching the clock - which means you not only notice each minute that goes by "the one" hasn't arrived yet, but everyone who you meet that isn't the one stands out. It makes no sense to look at things that way, but a lot do.
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