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 Dan99993
Joined: 11/29/2010
Msg: 101
Creepy neighbor, should I be direct and say I'm not interested?Page 5 of 10    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)
^^^You're saying it's because she finds him unattractive. Not because she has any real reason to be creeped out.

That's the assumption.
 browneyesboo
Joined: 5/19/2005
Msg: 102
Creepy neighbor, should I be direct and say I'm not interested?
Posted: 12/3/2010 10:42:19 AM

^^^You're saying it's because she finds him unattractive. Not because she has any real reason to be creeped out.

That's the assumption.


Read the original OP again. She made it a point to say he was unattractive, older
and not someone she's be interested in. She posted it in the DATING EXPERIENCES
forum. She said several times in her OP that she quickly turned away and left when he
attempted to converse with her.

There is nothing to indicate that this guy wanted anything more from her than a simple
hello. There is plenty to indicate the OP thought he had romantic inclinations towards
her and this creeped her out. (and we already know she thought he was unattractive
and not her type)

So yeah, my assumption is also that she found him unattractive first and then deemed
him unworthy of a hello, with her defense being I suppose, she didn't want to lead him
on. Should she be direct and say she's not interested in what exactly? Not interested in
being friendly and saying hello?

Come one...it looks pretty simple to me. Read the title of the forum.

Exactly WHAT should she not be interested in? Saying hello to creepy people who
say hello to her?
 Dan99993
Joined: 11/29/2010
Msg: 103
Creepy neighbor, should I be direct and say I'm not interested?
Posted: 12/3/2010 10:57:16 AM
browneyesboo, I did read her post. She mentions how he kept grinning at her like an idiot, at the laundromat, then tried to talk to her as she was leaving her apartment.

Like I said in a previous post, she may not be describing fully what she sensed, she may have these details she talked about in mind but likely isn't articulating the entire feeling.

I doubt it's just the actions she described, it must also be his demeanor, expressions, and attempts at insisting to communicate despite her ignoring him, that created the impression.

The fact that she described his appearance and stated she didn't find him attractive don't mean that that is the source of the 'creepiness' she feels, but possibly it may mean that she expects him to not assume she could be interested in him.
That (his seeming interest in her) may have skeeved her that much more.

But the creepiness likely comes from the impression the man made. I actually find it mildly insulting than to assume someone was merely being snobby and not capable of differentiating between a real intuition and plain dislike.

Instead of insisting she was a snob, I'd advise her to be cautious.
 Worbug
Joined: 4/23/2009
Msg: 104
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History
Creepy neighbor, should I be direct and say I'm not interested?
Posted: 12/3/2010 10:57:32 AM
If she has another (real) Reason, then she should state so.

If she has the right to act on assumptions, then, so does the neighbor. But I bet if he assumes she works at the local "Steam and Cream" (Massage Parlor) and offered her twenty dollars for "Happy Ending", he would be bashed, but after all, people are saying it is okay to act on your assumptions.

She does have the right to feel any way her little heart desires, no matter how unwarranted, I will agree. What she doesn't have, is the right to act upon any way she wants to, unwarranted. Just as the OP has the right to feel any way she wants to about her so called "Creepy" neighbor, we here in the forums have a right to feel any way we want towards the OP. The difference is, at least me and the other posters here are going on actual "REAL"data on the OP and not assuptions.

The fact she has felt the need to start a thread concerning him leads me to believe she will not stop there, she is probably one step away from seeking legal advice. But that is OK because her "Intuition" told her so.

I realy wish the neighbor would start a thread "My neighbor thinks she is so hot and that I am stalking her", now that would be goooooood. It is his right to assume that, CORRECT.

A lot of people are taking her on her word and justifying her INTUITION/GUT etc, without any representaion from the other party, There are three sides to every story, hers, his, and the truth. And we have of yet, only heard hers. She has yet to give any valid reasons to substantiate anything, outside of her gut feeling.

And what I find further absurd, is that women have this all insightful intuition, as if they have ESP. EVERYONE has gut feelings, that does not give you the right to "Cry Wolf" everytime somehing doesn't feel right.
 TDH49
Joined: 8/13/2010
Msg: 105
Creepy neighbor, should I be direct and say I'm not interested?
Posted: 12/3/2010 11:16:02 AM
like I said in a previous post, she may not be describing fully what she sensed, she may have these details she talked about in mind but likely isn't articulating the entire feeling


And you accuse OTHER'S of making assumptions?



I doubt it's just the actions she described, it must also be his demeanor, expressions, and attempts at insisting to communicate despite her ignoring him, that created the impression


More assumptions, by mister don't assume.. But let's look at this sillyness about " insisting to communicate" shall we.

They came in contact 3 times. The first time initiated by the OP herself after she stuck her nose in a conversation involving this " creepy" guy and other neighbors. After this contact he saw her 2 weeks later in the laundrymat, most likey said to himself" Oh crap there is that nosey neighbour that lives in my building, I better say " Hi" to be polite, or she will just be butting in once I start a conversation with someone I actually want to talk to." (I know I am making assumptions, but it seem to be ok for you so). Then the next time she comes out of her apartment, the guy was leaving his apartment, they cross paths in the hallway on THANKSGIVING no less, he tries being pleasant, and she take off running down the hallway. So tell me again about this " Insisting to communicate" of which you speak?
 browneyesboo
Joined: 5/19/2005
Msg: 106
Creepy neighbor, should I be direct and say I'm not interested?
Posted: 12/3/2010 11:18:03 AM

They came in contact 3 times. The first time initiated by the OP herself after she stuck her nose in a conversation involving this " creep" guy and other neighbors. After this contact her saw her 2 weeks later in the laundrmat, most likey said to himself" Oh crap there is that nosey neighbour that lives in my building, I better say " Hi" to be polite" (I know I am kaing assumptions, but it seem to be ok for you so). Then the next time she comes out of her apartment, the guy was leaving his apartment, then cross paths in the hallway on THANKSGIVING no less, she tries being pleasant, and she take off running down the hallway. So tell me again about this " Insisting to communicate" of which you speak?

 452
Joined: 11/1/2009
Msg: 107
Creepy neighbor, should I be direct and say I'm not interested?
Posted: 12/3/2010 11:19:26 AM

A lot of people are taking her on her word and justifying her INTUITION/GUT etc, without any representaion from the other party,

In all the time I have been on these forums I have only ever seen one situation in which we got both people in giving both sides of the story.The nature of the forums is that you will only get one side of the story.We all have the right to our feelings and the right to follow or not to follow our gut feeling.Whether your gut feeling is wrong or not really doesn't matter because I would rather be safe then sorry.



EVERYONE has gut feelings, that does not give you the right to "Cry Wolf" everytime somehing doesn't feel right.

Actually it does.If for any reason you don't have a good feeling about someone you have the right to stay away from that person if you feel the need to do so.She does not have the right to slander him with no proof,she is not doing that anyway,but she does have the right to keep anyone out of her life and ignore him if that is she wants to.
 Worbug
Joined: 4/23/2009
Msg: 108
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Creepy neighbor, should I be direct and say I'm not interested?
Posted: 12/3/2010 11:27:11 AM
"She does not have the right to slander him with no proof,she is not doing that anyway,but she does have the right to keep anyone out of her life and ignore him if that is she wants to"

I agree, but my GUT feeling tells me she probably is slandering him with the other neighbors and friends. I am sure she has got other people looking at him with a slant now. No one is saying she has to welcome him into her life or even talk to him. The point everyone is making is that she has based everything on this mans appearance and age.
 clockwork lime
Joined: 8/12/2009
Msg: 109
Creepy neighbor, should I be direct and say I'm not interested?
Posted: 12/3/2010 11:43:34 AM
Some of the posters on this thread would change their stance in a heartbeat if it were some fellow posting about a "slutty" older woman who moved into his building, and seeking advice as to what he should do about this slutty woman after 3 innocuous encounters in 3 weeks.
Slutty? Based on what? Well in the laundry room, she was grinning at me like a whore.
She actually said hello to me as I was leaving the apartment on halloween. I know the old bag wants me. It's making me uncomfortable.

Well, he has every right to feel she's slutty and to be rude to her and shun her, because his feelings come from the gut, you know, that slutty vibe she's giving off.

There would be no end of lectures as to why men should not label women.

Labels are labels. Think about the word "creepy" and the negative connotations that it holds. It's a label. Not much different from the word slut.
 Dan99993
Joined: 11/29/2010
Msg: 110
Creepy neighbor, should I be direct and say I'm not interested?
Posted: 12/3/2010 11:52:15 AM
Nope (tdh49) I haven't assumed anything, I've tried to demonstrate there could be more to her story, and that YOU (and others) are doing the assuming.

You're the ones insisting she has no grounds for being suspicious, while some elementary psychology should tell you that if she feels creeped out, it may be because she is, indeed, and people aren't always able to relate these things well, therefore it doesn't come out very well in writing. You just get a few situations where she felt that way, but she's not descriptive enough, and it seems like she may be only interpreting, and interpreting with a big bias. But maybe she just doesn't manage to express it correctly.

I'm not certain as far as whether her feelings are justified, but there's one thing I'm certain of: you can't decide if she's being snobby instead of following a true hunch, just by what she wrote.
People don't always articulate their feelings well, so if someone says she was creeped out, she may be 'wrong' (confusing creepiness with something else) but she may be right also.

Again you make an assumption. Not me. I'm not assuming she's right.

I'm just not taking sides, because at this point, from everything I've read her feeling could be correct. We don't know.

Instead of drilling into her that she's being snobby, tell her to test her feeling cautiously.

That's my point.
 christ on a crutch
Joined: 2/1/2009
Msg: 111
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History
Creepy neighbor, should I be direct and say I'm not interested?
Posted: 12/3/2010 12:06:13 PM

tried to demonstrate there could be more to her story

agreed. i chided the op a touch, but i do think she's getting unfairly piled onto here.

of the interpretations that cast her in the worst light, many seem to be parsing her language as if it defines every fact and nuance of the situation with crystalline unambiguity. language rarely achieves that level of perfection, and christ, this ain't a jury trial hinging on contract law and microscopic nuances of language.

if the op is alarmed, maybe it's all in her head, or maybe this guy is putting off a threatening vibe. i'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt, even though i wholeheartedly agree with clockwork's point about how thoughtlessly the 'creep' label gets applied in general.
 452
Joined: 11/1/2009
Msg: 112
Creepy neighbor, should I be direct and say I'm not interested?
Posted: 12/3/2010 12:10:52 PM
Some of the posters on this thread would change their stance in a heartbeat if it were some fellow posting about a "slutty" older woman who moved into his building, and seeking advice as to what he should do about this slutty woman after 3 innocuous encounters in 3 weeks.
Slutty? Based on what? Well in the laundry room, she was grinning at me like a whore.

Slutty behavior is much different from creepy behavior.Slutty behavior is far more obvious.If the older woman were grabbing her breast,rubbing her crotch,licking her lips,blowing him kisses and grinding up against him then that would be slutty behavior.Creepy behavior if far more hard to pin down.Sometimes we don't know why someone creeps me out like my family members husband.Sometimes we have no idea why someone creeps us out.They have not done anything creepy yet we still feel that way.


Well, he has every right to feel she's slutty and to be rude to her and shun her, because his feelings come from the gut, you know, that slutty vibe she's giving off.

We all have the right to be rude to and shun anyone we want no matter what.There is no law on the books that say we have to be nice.
 browneyesboo
Joined: 5/19/2005
Msg: 113
Creepy neighbor, should I be direct and say I'm not interested?
Posted: 12/3/2010 12:21:28 PM
Hello? Has anyone else noticed this was posted in a dating experience
thread, there was no mention of any date, no one asked anyone out on a
date, no one asked anyone if the other was interested in a date, someone
said hello, someone else was creeped out and needs advice on what to do?

Are you kidding me? You don't like the guy, you don't say hello or you
say hello and then move on...or you ignore him.
You don't suddenly decide he has lascivious designs on your person and
you somehow need advice on how to "tell him you're not interested."
What difference does it make how old this guy is or how unattractive he is if
he creeps you out in other ways? Why bother mentioning his age and level of
attractiveness unless it was part of your motivation for disliking him in the first
place?
 Dan99993
Joined: 11/29/2010
Msg: 114
Creepy neighbor, should I be direct and say I'm not interested?
Posted: 12/3/2010 12:26:32 PM

of the interpretations that cast her in the worst light, many seem to be parsing her language as if it defines every fact and nuance of the situation with crystalline unambiguity.


Exactly. If I were to relate how a stranger had followed me, or had seemed to, and that I was creeped out, but all I could relate was: he was following the same path I was, turned the same three corners I turned, stayed at about the same distance the whole time, kept his hands in his pockets, never lifted his head - on each of the several times I took a quick look- wore a trench coat; I never have people following me like that, and when I finally turned around boldly to face him (he was still 100m behind), he suddenly entered a shop, almost like he was trying to hide. At the same moment.
I don't know why but I had a bad feeling about this guy. This particular one.

I'm sure a lot of people would say: your bad feeling is due to paranoia.

Which is possible. But we pick up so much more on an unconscious level, which may alert us to a danger, and which we're incapable of putting into words. Just the words I use don't tell the whole story. The story of why I feel that way.

In the case of the OP it could be a less 'paranoid' feeling, if at all, because she had more direct interaction with the man, than in the hypothetical case I presented.

So just in case, I refrain from determining she was just being snobby.
 JRodriguez81
Joined: 2/24/2010
Msg: 115
Creepy neighbor, should I be direct and say I'm not interested?
Posted: 12/3/2010 1:46:45 PM

Yet again Rodriguez, you choose to misinterpret. It's okay though, I like to fight.
At no time did I suggest to "accost" anyone.
Having been through something like this, My advice is intended to save her the grief I went through trying to shove unwanted attention under the carpet, hoping it would magically go away.
Being subtle doesn't work w/ creeps. And yes I believe she picked up on a vibe. We women have a way of picking up on vibes after years of being trusting only to find out we have been bamboozeled yet once again.
To the man who said "we're just going by what she wrote" Did you read the part where it says she thinks he's creepy? The part where he questioned her about her laundry?
The part that says he's about 15 years older than her? (makes him about 50). The part where he stares at her?
For arguments sake let's say he's shy, lonely, or socially inept as some posters put it.
How is that the op's problem? Her focus is and should be to protect herself
against potential predators. That's inbred in all of us.
Anyone that shy, lonely or socially inept at the age of 50 is CREEPY!
Let's say he 's new to the building (I don't remember reading that but...) Does this mean he doesn't have friends/family he keeps in contact with from previous residences? ("maybe he's lonely" ) CREEPY!
His social problems, if they do in fact exist other than in some poster's imaginations (the very thing you're accusing op having too much of) are Not the Op's problem. She doesn't like him for whatever her reasons. She doesn't like his attention. And I say NIP IT IN THE BUD.
XO That's for you, Roddy cause it's the Holidays, and I refuse to be mean to you, today.
I warn you though, I get cranky when the holidays are over.



"Nipping it in the bud" doesnt mean she should pretend he isnt speaking to her, look the other direction in attempt to ignore the guy. That isnt exactly helping either....and frankly, THAT in itself is a bit awkward as well.


And wait a minute...

Him being 50 and socially awkward is creepy....but her being "potentially" socially awkward, as you stated there, at 34-35 is alright? So if you grow older, and arent people savvy, you're a freak? For all we know, the guy could be slow or something...we dont know anything about this guy at all, other than the fact that APPARENTLY hes very unattractive.




And I wasnt aware, that we were supposed to be being mean to eachother?
 JRodriguez81
Joined: 2/24/2010
Msg: 116
Creepy neighbor, should I be direct and say I'm not interested?
Posted: 12/3/2010 2:52:07 PM

Hope you get it all sorted out soon though. After all, it's almost December 25th and you don't want to have to launch a pre-emptive strike against any possible pesky "Merry Christmas"es being tossed your way.



She might mace him, and call the cops if that were to occur.
 clockwork lime
Joined: 8/12/2009
Msg: 117
Creepy neighbor, should I be direct and say I'm not interested?
Posted: 12/3/2010 2:55:44 PM

We all have the right to be rude to and shun anyone we want no matter what.There is no law on the books that say we have to be nice.

There's no law on the books that say I can't mock developmentally challenged children either. Nor is there a law that says that I can't point and laugh out loud at fat people in the food court of a shopping mall. In fact there's no law that says I can't fall in step behind a fat woman and make noises like the A&W bear when she's walking either. I can think of a thousand things that would make people feel sh!tty about themselves that the law can't stop me from doing. Because there's no law against them, it doesn't make them the right things to do though.


Slutty behavior is much different from creepy behavior.Slutty behavior is far more obvious.If the older woman were grabbing her breast,rubbing her crotch,licking her lips,blowing him kisses and grinding up against him then that would be slutty behavior.Creepy behavior if far more hard to pin down.Sometimes we don't know why someone creeps me out like my family members husband.Sometimes we have no idea why someone creeps us out.They have not done anything creepy yet we still feel that way.

You're wrong. Creepy behaviour is obvious. If this fellow was caught skulking beneath her window, or continually showed up at the same places she was showing up, or following her from the bus stop, or exhibiting strange behaviour, then that would be creepy. Saying hello, grinning, and wishing someone a happy Thanksgiving isn't creepy at all.

It would seem to me that many people are saying that someone doesn't have to actually do anything creepy to be labeled a creep. Well then someone doesn't necessarily doesn't have to do anything slutty to be labeled a slut, men just have to pick up on that "slutty vibe" that she's giving out.
 452
Joined: 11/1/2009
Msg: 118
Creepy neighbor, should I be direct and say I'm not interested?
Posted: 12/3/2010 4:36:25 PM

There's no law on the books that say I can't mock developmentally challenged children either. Nor is there a law that says that I can't point and laugh out loud at fat people in the food court of a shopping mall. In fact there's no law that says I can't fall in step behind a fat woman and make noises like the A&W bear when she's walking either. I can think of a thousand things that would make people feel sh!tty about themselves that the law can't stop me from doing. Because there's no law against them, it doesn't make them the right things to do though.

All of which amounts to a hill of nothing.If you choose to make fun of people openly then you are allowed to do so.That was my point.We can behave any way we choose so long as it's not against the law.My point was not about right and wrong it's about what we can and can't do legally.

You're wrong. Creepy behaviour is obvious.

Actually I am not.You're talking about obvious behavior and when we get the creeps about someone most of the time there is no obvious reason as to why we feel the way we do.No one ever believed my family members husband was creepy because he was so nice,handsome and charming.Yet from the time I met him as a little child I was always creeped out by him.There was nothing obvious he ever did and it was never something I could put my finger on.For most people when we get the creeps there is no obvious and in your face reasons for it.
 moonbeamlover
Joined: 9/19/2010
Msg: 119
Creepy neighbor, should I be direct and say I'm not interested?
Posted: 12/3/2010 10:37:16 PM
the way she is describing it feels like the very very early stages of stalking...


Ah, but you didn't say the word "potential"; therefore, you've had your words COMPLETELY twisted around.

Back-pedalling can be SO funny.

I'm not that bright, so please explain to me, and the viewing public, the obviously significant difference between being characterized as a "potential stalker", and qualifying for the "early stages" of being a stalker, as you say above.

Dr. ES...


hello dr. es and viewing public.

i wasn't talking about him BEING the stalker. I talked about how the FEELINGS were the same feelings as the beginning of stalking. In the beginning it is uncomfortable, invasive and "creepy", from nothing more than a person being there (think about it... stalking shouldn't be that big a deal either; it's just a person being there saying nothing, doing nothing). After it has escalated, the feelings become terror. I did not say he INTENDED to stalk. i said the feelings were the same as if he did. and if a person was asked to explain why stalking itself is a big deal, how can it be verbalized? Oftentimes it can't. so because someone can't consciously or adequately explain a situation these feelings produce; they get laughed off, eye rolled at or downright derided.

I can understand why you took it the way you did... now maybe you can TRY and undersatnd what it was i was trying to say that was misunderstood as well?
 1234happy
Joined: 8/26/2010
Msg: 120
Creepy neighbor, should I be direct and say I'm not interested?
Posted: 12/4/2010 5:04:43 AM
When I have encountered someone I consider ‘creepy’ the hair on the back of my neck stands up and my entire body goes on ‘alert’. This response has never happened due to a person’s looks, age or gender. I don’t know what it is about that person, but I know something isn’t right by my body’s reaction to them.

Had she said anything along those lines I would be inclined to agree that she needs to stay away from this person and avoid all contact.

What she implied was that his ‘creepiness’ comes from the fact that he is old, unattractive and has no chance of dating her. That to me is total BS and in no way creepy. That’s an immature persons response that has no idea how to handle the attentions of someone she doesn’t find attractive without insulting them or putting them in a bad light.
 Arlo_Troutman
Joined: 9/26/2009
Msg: 121
Creepy neighbor, should I be direct and say I'm not interested?
Posted: 12/4/2010 10:17:09 AM

(Dan99993) browneyesboo, I did read her post. She mentions how he kept grinning at her like an idiot, at the laundromat, then tried to talk to her as she was leaving her apartment.


The clear implication by the OP being, that he was OBVIOUSLY sizing her up to figure if she'd fit in his freezer, instead of concluding that maybe, just maybe, he was trying to be friendly, and he's not all that socially adept.

So many people jump to the conclusion that people are malicious, instead of maybe just socially clumsy. And, has been said, would it KILL the OP to shoot the breeze for a few minutes with her neighbour? I don't think so...

Dr. ES... :people are idiots:
 Arlo_Troutman
Joined: 9/26/2009
Msg: 122
Creepy neighbor, should I be direct and say I'm not interested?
Posted: 12/4/2010 10:25:25 AM

(ray of moonlight) Slutty behavior is much different from creepy behavior.Slutty behavior is far more obvious.


Really? Enlighten us.

Anyway, it doesn't matter if it's "creepy" behaviour, or "slutty" behaviour: if it's objectionable, it's objectionable. Or, is there a sliding scale, or hierarchy, where "creepy" behaviour deserves opprobrium, while "slutty" behaviour should be laughed off?

Dr. ES...
 Arlo_Troutman
Joined: 9/26/2009
Msg: 123
Creepy neighbor, should I be direct and say I'm not interested?
Posted: 12/4/2010 10:36:58 AM


(DES) the way she is describing it feels like the very very early stages of stalking...


Ah, but you didn't say the word "potential"; therefore, you've had your words COMPLETELY twisted around.

Back-pedalling can be SO funny.

I'm not that bright, so please explain to me, and the viewing public, the obviously significant difference between being characterized as a "potential stalker", and qualifying for the "early stages" of being a stalker, as you say above.

Dr. ES...

(moonbeamlover) hello dr. es and viewing public.

i wasn't talking about him BEING the stalker. I talked about how the FEELINGS were the same feelings as the beginning of stalking.


A distinction without a difference.


think about it... stalking shouldn't be that big a deal either...


I can't believe you just said something so monumentally foolish.

"The first thing you should do when you're digging yourself into a hole, is to stop digging."


I can understand why you took it the way you did... now maybe you can TRY and undersatnd what it was i was trying to say that was misunderstood as well?


Sure: I couldn't see any difference between being a "potential" stalker, and being in the "very very early stages" of being a stalker. Does it depend on how many "very"s you put in front of "early"?

Dr. ES...
 curmudgeon_ed
Joined: 11/24/2010
Msg: 124
Creepy neighbor, should I be direct and say I'm not interested?
Posted: 12/4/2010 10:50:43 AM
are you even sure he was trying to do any of that???? i mean really...how the heck would you know for sure without asking
 Dan99993
Joined: 11/29/2010
Msg: 125
Creepy neighbor, should I be direct and say I'm not interested?
Posted: 12/4/2010 11:16:43 AM

(@ DrEgon Spengler) The clear implication by the OP being, that he was OBVIOUSLY sizing her up to figure if she'd fit in his freezer, instead of concluding that maybe, just maybe, he was trying to be friendly, and he's not all that socially adept.


What? I don't think she necessarily thinks he's out to do anything terrible. The creeps can just come from someone seeming a bit out of whack and potentially causing you unnecessary problems, anguishes.

It can mean other things too. Maybe just feeling someone's not being honest with you or that they're a bit unsound. But again (as I've said to others) you can't determine if she's just being paranoid or if there's something else making her feel the creeps, based on what she wrote. She mentions events only, but it may really be mostly about the impression he projected. We sometimes do that, assuming people will know what we mean.

'Someone did this or that, etc, he's creepy' and people think you're just being paranoid. But maybe there's more to it (not just actions but how the person comes across, some subtle hints), and the person doesn't always think of conveying that. This may be the case here.

Even if he'd been handsome but had not picked up on evident hints that she didn't want to talk to him, or if he'd ignored them, and possibly gave the impression of being a bit nutso or cuckoo, she might still have had the creeps.

I wonder if you all aren't being a bit too condescending and dismissive.. ?
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