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 AUTHOR
 WaywardWynde
Joined: 5/19/2007
Msg: 151
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The report was called ~~"Lifestyles, Dating and Romance, A Study of Midlife Singles"~~ and ~~"describes the Singles Lifestyles Study conducted for AARP The Magazine in June 2003, a survey of 3,501 single men and women ages 40-69"~~

In the Executive Summary, it was stated ~~"large proportions (of single people age 40 to 69), especially of older women, take a pass on dating and sex"~~.

It was also stated in the ES ~~"There is a VAST (emphasis added) chasm between men and women in their dating attitudes and sexual desire" ~~

and it states .....

~~"Furthermore, the attitudes that divide single men and women at this age may
have partly caused them to remain single or revert to single status."~~

It also stated that few single women in that age group wanted a partner again, yet it stated and showed by graph that what one in three (32%) of those single women age 40 to 69 ~~"LIKED LEAST (emphasis added) about being single"~~ was ~~"NOT HAVING ENOUGH MONEY (emphasis added)"~~

That's in the Executive Summary. Reading the report for its details tells an even grimmer story, if you are a normal man (few interested women available), though perhaps a GREAT! story if you are a normal woman (lots of interested men available).

After reading the report, I -- who far and away prefers women my age -- figured out my social life ops would be greatly increased (an order of magnitude? (*) ) by not worrying about the age of the women, by "going outside the tribe".

My daughter, bless her soul, said "Dad, don't limit yourself. If a (young) woman wants you ..."

(*) Mathematically, "an order of magnitude" means "about ten times, but there's a small chance of as little as 5 times and an equally small chance of as much as 50 times.
 ItsMargo
Joined: 4/24/2007
Msg: 152
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increasing numbers of women are marrying men for their money
Posted: 1/10/2011 1:36:08 PM
LadyC4, admittedly I have been too busy on lifestuff this past week to delve into the various mysteries of these studies being thrown about, including the one I threw into the mix. BUT, I'd say with my cursory glance at them, the sample *is* a random sample of divorced people aged 40 to 69.

It was conducted with people who had experienced divorce in middle age that's HARDLY a "random sampling" of "single people"...in fact the information in the suervey indicated that the sampling included people who had since remarried,or people who had remarried and been widowed. It was not just 'single people".

I believe WW's point was it wasn't a survey of AARP's membership. Sure, some "single, never married" people are excluded but I'd say a sample of divorced people captures the majority of single (non coupled) people over age 40. Again, from my quick flip through the various studies, it appears the researchers have grouped sub-sets of their respondents for some questions. This is a common and acceptable method; all people for more general questions and excluding a sub group (say married people) when the question relates to attitudes of currently single people.

Further, I see no problem with AARP's intent to get more information about the populations they serve. Professionally conducted research - as these various surveys - are the best way to find out people's attitudes.

Regarding comments made by someone on projection: Of course it is projection; the only possible way to get a glimpse into the future is to ask people their intent. Asking: "Do you intend to marry again?" would give us results of people's intents on the day they responded. They might well change their mind next week or next year. As it pertains to sex, no, one cannot say these people will *never* have sex again, but it would be fair to say they currently accept or anticipate a life with no-sex.
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 153
increasing numbers of women are marrying men for their money
Posted: 1/10/2011 1:52:50 PM

yet it stated and showed by graph that what one in three (32%) of those single women age 40 to 69 ~~"LIKED LEAST (emphasis added) about being single"~~ was ~~"NOT HAVING ENOUGH MONEY

Ask that question of ANY group of average people, and one in 3 will mention something to do with finances/employment security.
I'm sorry, but somebody hopping hither and thither on the internet trying to "prove" to me that I'm never going to have sex again isn't going to scare me into going to the next Adopt-an-Old-Drunk event at the local bar and grill and bar.
And if women have some general guidelines about not wasting time dating/getting involved with men who don't meet their criteria,so what. Here is another possible factor among mature women, the impact of marriage on Social Security benefits,the concerns about having resources one brought to a marriage drained by an illness in the man-actually that concern can go BOTH ways.
Yes, I imagine that overall, women still do tend to marry men who have higher income relative to their own. Some of that simply is a result of many years of parental and social conditioning, and the article referenced in the OT did not specify that it was referring to only marriages of women over a certain age.
Cindy O
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 154
increasing numbers of women are marrying men for their money
Posted: 1/10/2011 2:08:41 PM
BUT, I'd say with my cursory glance at them, the sample *is* a random sample of divorced people aged 40 to 69.


It was conducted with people who had experienced divorce in middle age that's HARDLY a "random sampling" of "single people"...in fact the information in the suervey indicated that the sampling included people who had since remarried,or people who had remarried and been widowed. It was not just 'single people".

I did not disagree with that. It WAS a survey conducted among people who had experienced a divorce in midlife. The summary itself made the observation that some of these divorced midlifers had since remarried or become widowed. That isn't something I made up. But a "random sample of single people" could include people who were never married or people who were widowed WITHOUT having been through a midlife divorce.

Further, I see no problem with AARP's intent to get more information about the populations they serve. Professionally conducted research - as these various surveys - are the best way to find out people's attitudes.

Oh, I have no problem or quarrel with that either! But still, AARP has a mission to fulfill and part of the way they do that is by gaining members. My point was simply to illustrate my OWN PERSONAL PHILOSOPHY of considering the source of funding for any study, survey, research or testing, alongside the data or information being presented.
To me, a woman saying at a certain time on a certain day that she accepts or anticipates that the rest of her life will be sexless,does not mean,unequivocally, that 75% of unattached women over 40 are never going to have sex again. I don't think AARP meant for their study to be used as propaganda by men who apparently don't have enough of whatever it is we women are supposed to want, to BLAME the women for having a few standards.
Cindy O
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 155
increasing numbers of women are marrying men for their money
Posted: 1/10/2011 4:10:26 PM
This has gotten way off topic, but I am going to respond.

And by the way, here is the address for this report: http://assets.aarp.org/rgcenter/general/singles_1.pdf

WWW wrote:
In the Executive Summary, it was stated ~~"large proportions (of single people age 40 to 69), especially of older women, take a pass on dating and sex"~~.


I googled THIS report and NOWHERE in it can I find a statement that 75% of single women over 40 will NEVER AGAIN have sex. Can you direct me to the page that states this? I also can’t find the quote you cited above—can you provide the page number?

It also states:
Women look more for a pleasing personality and sense of humor, common interests, and personal or moral and religious values in a date. Financial stability is also important for many women. It is not that men do not want these. Many of them just have added wants such as physically attractive dates and sexual activity.


According to this, men also want financial stability! How should we read that? They want a woman for money AND sex with a good-looking woman?

WWW wrote:
There is a VAST (emphasis added) chasm between men and women in their dating attitudes and sexual desire"


On page 3, the Summary states:
There is a vast chasm between men and women in their dating attitudes and sexual desire. For example only two percent of women say that sex is acceptable during the first date, while ten times as many men, 20 percent, think it is acceptable.


The data does not support that women have less sexual desire, but that their attitude toward WHEN to have sex differs. The chart on page 4 reports that while 20% of men think sex on the first date is acceptable while only 2% of women think it is, jump to having sex after knowing each other for an extended period of time: 45% of the women think this is acceptable.

However, the most telling aspect is how many men vs women think NEVER having sex is acceptable: Men, 2%; Women, 4%. That is not a huge difference! In addition, 7% of the men didn’t respond to this part of the questionnaire, and 9% of the women didn’t respond.

I cannot find any question that asks men and women if they will NEVER have sex again.

As for money:
Demographic and Attitudinal Groups: The men are broken down into four categories. When asked how many would like to be more financially comfort able (Note: this does NOT relate to marrying), three of the groups had 34/35/38% of their “members” saying it was important; 48% of one group said it was a desired change.
Of the four groups of women, 11% of one group said it was important, another 49%, and two 29% --except for the 49% (aspiring Cinderellas who are likely to be in poor health with lower than average incomes), this was not a question related to marrying for financial comfort. Also note that numbers were not given as to how many women were in each group.

It would appear, however, that fewer women worry about money than do men!

Historically speaking, women depended on men for financial support. Poor women always worked as maids, prostitutes, washer women, ironers, dressmakers, spinners, nannies and governesses, etc.: traditionally low paying jobs. But with the advent of the middle class and late 19th and 20th century attitudes about the place of a wife being in the home, what option did women have but to seek a man who would best support them?
 RoxanneR
Joined: 7/14/2009
Msg: 156
increasing numbers of women are marrying men for their money
Posted: 1/10/2011 5:57:20 PM
joebleaux, I'm certainly not 25-30, and I've been married and widowed. I did mention that I'm looking for another job, and ever since my husband died, I've been "making a life" for myself, even with the economy as it is. Never assume things about a person. God has someone for me somewhere, and I'm keeping that in my prayers!
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 157
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increasing numbers of women are marrying men for their money
Posted: 1/10/2011 6:19:09 PM
The way I see it, the study cited provides some evidence of the benefit to society of a golddigger. You see, since these men desire sex so much more than the women, & the only way they can get it is by using their money (btw, I have seen just as many men flaunting their cash as I have seen women looking for such men) it should logically follow that, by using their "attributes" to get what makes them happy, they are now able to contribute more to society. A happy wealthy man is a more productive wealthy man, wouldn't you say?

Statistics alone don't really prove a thing, now, do they?
 Ms Cheevious
Joined: 12/8/2008
Msg: 158
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increasing numbers of women are marrying men for their money
Posted: 1/11/2011 5:02:52 AM

I love men, and enjoy their company tremendously. I even believe in love. Even so, the idea that I will probably never marry/cohabit again is not something I fear. The idea that at 45, I will never have sex again? Laughable.


My sentiments exactly! Men are the greatest things since sliced bread!




What the 2004 AARP survey of sexuality at midlife and beyond -----DID----- say, and that I repeated, is that 75% of SINGLE women over age 40 _will_ never again have sex in their lives.


I'll be forever in the 25% group.

Should I ever want for intimate human touch...I'll book a flight and let the TSA folks give me the once over..
 happybunny8
Joined: 4/16/2010
Msg: 159
increasing numbers of women are marrying men for their money
Posted: 1/11/2011 5:13:11 AM
It was also stated in the ES ~~"There is a VAST (emphasis added) chasm between men and women in their dating attitudes and sexual desire" ~~


This is why there will always be gold diggers. They know how easy it is to get money out of men. I'm not sure how fulfilling that can really be, but women are doing it.

Sorry to say, but most young women I know (and I know many between 25 and 40) are not interested in an older man - money or not.


It would appear, however, that fewer women worry about money than do men!


So very true. Most men I date either complain about their lack of money or brag about their money. I can't stand it.

Someone has to stop teaching men that money is what attracts women or these men need to start dating different women.

Not likely to happen any time soon.
 Savona
Joined: 11/22/2010
Msg: 160
increasing numbers of women are marrying men for their money
Posted: 1/11/2011 5:54:29 AM


On the matchable site I found a ten-year-old picture of a woman claiming to be a high end sales executive whom I had met who was barely scraping by making a living selling a product type I'd stopped selling years before because it had run its course, she working for "an esteemed manager" I personally had fired sometime back for utter incompetence.

(A friend told me she met a "Food Service Industry
Consultant" who was in fact a waiter.)


What does this mean ... ""when in fact a waiter"" are you saying that because she is a waitress she is lower than? Does this make you a gold digger looking for a woman who males more than a waitress. Hahaha isn't that what this thread is about that the women are looking for men that make more money than a paltry waiter's income. Kinda two faced don't you think?



Gold diggers don't so much pine for "amount of (face-to-face) time" as they do for "amount of (wallet-stripping) time." Women who desire face-to-face time almost never desire wallet-stripping time, because wallet strippers don't get to sleep with men attractive enough physically and emotionally to catch the interest of heavy-breathing, face-to-face type women.


There you go again, using gold diggers and only referring to women, sheesh, go and make a woman's profile and put up a good income and watch the men who write to you.



For my last month, ALL I did was change it to $250k+ a year. That's it... not ONE WORD changed... not even the part about hoping for an open relationships...


Thanks for at least admitting it that you lie on your profile ... hahaha, anyway if you are talking about match it only goes to $150,000 or over just like on here.



Want to guess how many women contact me HERE since I put in my profile that I'm the proverbial 'starving artist' because of the economy? HA!!!!! Guess lower.


Probably the same number who you contact that say they are starving and need someone to buy their groceries. Works both ways right? Just saying.
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 161
increasing numbers of women are marrying men for their money
Posted: 1/11/2011 7:06:34 AM

I love men, and enjoy their company tremendously. I even believe in love. Even so, the idea that I will probably never marry/cohabit again is not something I fear. The idea that at 45, I will never have sex again? Laughable.


I am 58, and the idea that I will never have sex again is ludicrous.


On the matchable site I found a ten-year-old picture of a woman claiming to be a high end sales executive whom I had met who was barely scraping by making a living selling a product type I'd stopped selling years before because it had run its course, she working for "an esteemed manager" I personally had fired sometime back for utter incompetence.

(A friend told me she met a "Food Service Industry
Consultant" who was in fact a waiter.)


I read the profile of a man on this site who listed his profession as "psychologist" even though he didn't have a doctorate. I used to date a psychologist and knew that couldn't be right. I emailed him just to ask about this specific point. He insisted that people with BAs could be psychologists. He asked me to have coffee with him and after establishing the fact that I seek only friends, I went.

One of the first things he admitted was that I was right: you can't be a psychologist without a PhD (or a PsyD, of which he seemed to know nothing). He didn't add that one had to pass boards in order to practice psychology: one can be "Dr. Smith" but still not practice without a license.

Several men have put "chef" as their profession when they work at Rib Crib or other such establishments. My son has worked as a line cook at Chili's, Olive Garden, and a few other places: because he cooks does not make him a chef.

Oh, and how about the guy who put "law" as his profession? One would think attorney, judge, even paralegal, but nope, he was a bail-bondsman. Of course, he also put down "Some College" but had flunked out during his first semester.

Yeah, and the guy who had no degree, then an MA. I asked him how he had gotten his degree in such a short time. The profile status then went to BA, but he didn't have that degree either.

My point? Both sexes lie about their job. They lie about their education, and that is related to money because an attorney makes more money than a bail-bondsman IF he is a successful attorney--the latter also has a higher social status.


Gold diggers don't so much pine for "amount of (face-to-face) time" as they do for "amount of (wallet-stripping) time." Women who desire face-to-face time almost never desire wallet-stripping time, because wallet strippers don't get to sleep with men attractive enough physically and emotionally to catch the interest of heavy-breathing, face-to-face type women.


First, define "gold-digger": is that a woman who is marrying for money? Sleeps with men for money? Although I still dispute that the report mentioned by the OP shows that more women are marrying for money, a woman who marries a man who is financially secure can VERY well desire face-to-face time. Because a woman OR man marries someone who has more money than she/he does NOT mean that they do not marry for love, as well.


For my last month, ALL I did was change it to $250k+ a year. That's it... not ONE WORD changed... not even the part about hoping for an open relationships...


Whenever I see this salary range on a profile, I assume the man is lying.
 carolann0308
Joined: 12/9/2006
Msg: 162
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increasing numbers of women are marrying men for their money
Posted: 1/11/2011 7:07:57 AM
After reading this thread, I think when I was younger I completely underestimated the power I had. I was intelligent, educated, in fabulous shape, as good looking as any other 23 year old but never went out of my way to catch a man with a large income. I frequented the same clubs, places and social circle that I had my entire life. So I never met men that were loaded. It's not easy meeting a millionaire when you go bowling every Friday night.
I probably was just as capable of falling for a rich guy as I did a poor one. I could have gotten any man I wanted had I planned it that way. I think some young women just KNOW what they want and understand that if they personally have a lot to offer, then why not ask for more?
Getting on a charity ball invite list is easy, shopping designer clothes at consignment stores is easy, I should have gone with my Dad to his sailing club more often to see who had eligible grandsons LOL You play the role men will naturally follow.
But most girls are not that conniving, they will fall in love with your broke ass whether you are interested in them or not.
 WaywardWynde
Joined: 5/19/2007
Msg: 163
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increasing numbers of women are marrying men for their money
Posted: 1/11/2011 11:22:08 AM

(A friend told me she met a "Food Service Industry
Consultant" who was in fact a waiter.)


What does this mean ... ""when in fact a waiter"" are you saying that because she is a waitress she is lower than? Does this make you a gold digger looking for a woman who males more than a waitress.


You seem to have lost track of the genders. My friend is a woman (note the pronoun "she") and the person she met who claimed to be a "Food Service Industry Consultant" was a guy who was in fact a waiter (you can tell he was a guy because he was a waiter, gals who wait tables are called waitresses). That's a lot like a cab driver claiming to be a "Travel Industry Executive", or the woman I met who claimed to be CEO of her own major company who in fact had a card table at a weekend flea market.

In the business world, those who have resumes passed to their desks by HR refer to that as "The Grand Falloone Syndrome". Q. What was your last position? A. I was the The Grand Falloone. Q. How many people reported to you? A. Everybody reported directly or indirectly to me.

Grand Falloones are rather common on the Internet.

On the other hand, I met a woman who claimed to be in "health care" who in fact was THE top executive of a major medical facility.


There you go again, using gold diggers and only referring to women


THIS thread was/is about _women_ gold diggers, not men who use women. Indeed, most usually the term "gold digger" MEANS female. A male who uses women is more usually referred to as a scumbag or leech than a gold digger.


I read the profile of a man on this site who listed his profession as "psychologist" even though he didn't have a doctorate.


There is no legal requirement for a psychologist to have more than a BA. A psychiatrist is different story. A psychiatrist must be a licensed MD.


COMMENT: Ain't it interesting just how many posters (who may have an agenda) address quotes (seemingly) deliberately opposite what the quote says? Ain't it interesting how many posters simply deny as not possible any and all well-founded, well-supported information which does not support their unsupportable agendas?

There are people who STILL believe in Area 51 and Commie conspiracies behind fluoride toothpaste.
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 164
increasing numbers of women are marrying men for their money
Posted: 1/11/2011 11:57:21 AM
In the article referenced byt the OT, I saw no mention of HOW the person advancing the theory came to know EXACTLY what a sampling of women married for. It doesn't mention that any surveys were sent out or questionnairs, or that exit polls were done outside churches,wedding chapels and courthouses,where women came out and SAID they married for money.
I'm sure that if you look at the statistics in just about any Western country, you would see that women tend to marry men who have more education or work in an occupation that has higher remuneration than the occupation listed by the woman,simply because situations where the woman in a couple consistently out-earns more than the man are not all that common yet.
Maybe my memory is hazy, but on the marriage license I signed, I recall listing an occupation and probably educational level, but not an income figure. Maybe now income has to be listed as well, though I'm not sure why.
What this researcher seems to have done is looked at the factor of women tending to marry men with more education, and an inference was made that higher education automatically equals higher income. I do not find it at all surprising that women are not rushing in droves to marry men who have less education and income, after all, even in these days of equality in marriage, most couples plan for the man to be the main breadwinner,UNLESS they plan to remain childless. So, it seems to me that now on top of everything else, a woman must marry a man that doesn't earn more, or have more education than she does. And she'll have to forget having children,because taking time off to handle birthing and the parental responsibilities that STILL are largely held to be hers, she would have a lower annual income and would therefore contribute to the "proof" that women are gold-diggers.
Yes, I have no doubt that women STILL tend to marry men who have more education/higher income,but I really doubt that 'his money' is the primary reason a woman marries a man.
Cindy O
 ItsMargo
Joined: 4/24/2007
Msg: 165
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increasing numbers of women are marrying men for their money
Posted: 1/15/2011 8:12:09 AM
I've spent a wee bit of time this morning looking into Dr Catherine Hakim's research. Her most recent study, highlighted in the OP, isn't available online yet (or I haven't found it yet) but reading other sources and commentaries I'd say the bit of context is this:

If women say they want equality and equal partnerships, why then, do most women persist in selecting partners where they are "marrying up"?

Dr. Hakim says the desire for equality is largely a feminist myth, in the real world, women's behaviours are not lining up with what it is said they want.
 Welsh474
Joined: 9/13/2010
Msg: 166
increasing numbers of women are marrying men for their money
Posted: 1/15/2011 8:41:30 AM
Is it a matter of "most women persist in selecting partners where they are "marrying up" or just a matter of that's the way it is or seems. Most men earn more than women so it would seem they are "marrying up". Even equally educated and trained show that men tend to earn more.

Wanting equality doesn't necessarily mean in the $$$ area, it may mean that they want equal in the relationship, equal in the home, equal in the parenting, equal in interests, equal in "smarts", etc.

For example, if a woman is a nurse and has a university degree working full time with 20 years experience and at the top of her earning potential at $75,000.00 per year plus some overtime - her potential partner may be a welder that has technical school education of 2 years, working full time with 20 years experience and owns his own gear he may well be earning $200,000.00 per year. She is marrying up if all you look at is the $$$. He may be marrying up if all you look at formal education. But I think most of us marry because we like the whole package and not just the money part.

Women have always, for the most part, been attracted to the successful or the powerful or the provider (outdated term). I'd say that most of us married "up" or "slightly up". I don't have an issue with that as I see it as "it's just the way it is".

What I don't like is someone marrying JUST for money or JUST for arm candy. But I don't have anything to compare the JUST for money thing to, I married for compativility and love. So, if there are any Donald Trump types out there, send me an email so I can compare "extreemly wealthy" to "pretty damn average"...lol.
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 167
increasing numbers of women are marrying men for their money
Posted: 1/15/2011 9:05:08 AM
My suggestion, meaning absolutely no disrespect to Dr. Hakim, is that she is seeing what she wants to see and making the "facts" fit her perception.
Why? Because sensationalistic statements that women are marrying men for their money garner attention, and attention=$$$.
Cindy O
 Fierysunlvr
Joined: 1/14/2010
Msg: 168
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increasing numbers of women are marrying men for their money
Posted: 1/15/2011 9:14:58 AM
We're in a Recession. Nobody can marry anyone for money anymore because nobody has any. We're all gonna be poor together.
 WaywardWynde
Joined: 5/19/2007
Msg: 169
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increasing numbers of women are marrying men for their money
Posted: 1/15/2011 9:23:19 AM

her potential partner may be a welder ... earning $200,000.00 per year.


Two HUNDRED grand a year?

My local Home Depot has two associates -- a man and a woman -- each of whom work in the tools department. I understand each was trained by the U.S. Navy to be skilled welders of (expensive) titanium (which will catch fire and burn extremely hot if not welded correctly). Each is now working for Home Depot wages, which is a bit short of two hundred grand a year.

Two hundred grand is nearly $100 an hour, if the welder works 40 hour weeks.
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 170
increasing numbers of women are marrying men for their money
Posted: 1/15/2011 9:33:13 AM
Depending or their location and the nature of their work, people who work with their hands in specialized occupations can pull down some pretty good money.
$100 an hour??? Why is that so unbelievable when many attorneys make $ 250 an hour? At the height of manufacturing in the US, average highschool/GED factory rats could earn close to $35 an hour, if one factored in dollar value of the benefits provided by the employer. ( Medical and dental insurance, life insurance, disability insurance, some employers offered or subsidized child care...I worked for an office furniture manufacturer who offered a cash benefit to people who adopted a child)
Anyway, if one factors in benefits, people who are well trained in "trades" can pull down some pretty good money. I wouldn't be one bit surprised to learn that one of my bros-in-law brings in 200k a year FARMING.
Cindy O
 ItsMargo
Joined: 4/24/2007
Msg: 171
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increasing numbers of women are marrying men for their money
Posted: 1/15/2011 9:36:14 AM

Most men earn more than women so it would seem they are "marrying up". Even equally educated and trained show that men tend to earn more.

Income equity has been achieved under 30; which I suspect is the reason Hakim focused her study on younger people. The question is: have people's behaviours changed once equality is achieved?

It's been about 50 years since 2nd wave feminism. Previously, women had to select "a good provider" because women did not have education and employment opportunities. OK, so now that women have achieved equality in education and employment opportunities - is this changing their behaviour in mate selection? Not so much, apparently.

I think one could argue that a lot (not all) of the equality rhetoric - especially as it applies to the victimhood of women - is largely a myth. It seems much of Hakim's research has poked holes in some feminist ideals of what's keeping women down and how things will change when what is blocking them is removed. It seems, once the blockage is removed, most women continue to make some of the same choices they made when they had "no choice". (perhaps *gasp* it wasn't all men's fault).

Is it: "it's just the way it is" or is it that we haven't had sufficient generations to complete the cycle of societal change? Is it that what was perceived as a blockage to women's potential wasn't blocking as much (or in the manner) as was theorized?

I always thought the 2nd wave feminists largely ignored the uncomfortable conflict between individual potential and the reality of sacrifice that family and relationships entail because it impaired their cause. "You can have it all" and "women are held back by men" are, to my view, persistent myths. It would seem that Hakim's research is revealing at least some cracks in these myths.

In this case, the *surprise* in her findings is not that *ho-hum* many women are making choices in the manner they "always" have. The *surprise* is that, after 50 years of feminism, many women are making choices in the manner they *always* have.
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 172
increasing numbers of women are marrying men for their money
Posted: 1/15/2011 9:53:09 AM
If they wish to raise offspring, they may very well be making choices the same way that they have. Because birthing and nurturing a child often means time away from the workplace or financially gainful activity. Of course some of the nurturing chores CAN be shared, but it seems to be the default that it is the mother who handles the practicalities.
What equality has done is given women choices. She may choose to forego marriage and/or motherhood. She can now have credit in her own name, buy a home without a sponsoring male, or she can knock herself out trying to "have it all". If she doesn't plan to have children, or if she has a way to put money in the bank against having to take time away from earning a livelihood to birth a child, she can marry a good looking beach bum.
And many women are still making choices the way they always have, because when it's done right, the "traditional" family unit is a splendid way to raise children. But it is their choice to make, and that's where equality comes in.
Cindy O
 Welsh474
Joined: 9/13/2010
Msg: 173
increasing numbers of women are marrying men for their money
Posted: 1/15/2011 10:35:05 AM
I think "we haven't had sufficient generations to complete the cycle...." has some merit. Things are changing slowly. As for feminism and the under 30 crowd, I don't know if that factors in, they were born into a generation that expected to have equality, they didn't fight for it - they were born in to it. And this is a good thing. Us older folks are more aware of the benefits of the feminist movement.

I think some of the glass ceilings or the pink ceilings are being broken down, some industries are a little slower than others but for the most part it is not so glaring. As for "victimhood of women", I too think that this is a myth. If you're a victim, maybe look in the mirror or look at the choices you've made in regard to your occupation or workplace situation.

As for welders and $100.00 bucks an hour - very common in my neck of the woods. Skilled trades are well respecting, highly talented and very well paid. I briefly dated a fellow who was a purhaser for a large oil field company, he liked to point out to me that he made $125.00 an hour ordering parts/services/writing contracts for projects and he worked 12 hours a day 7 days a week - that's a lot of coin for someone without any university or college education. He also told me how much his house was worth, how much his investments were worth, and on and on - he put a dollar value on himself while I found him boring as hell. I did not ask him about these things but he sure liked to talk about it. My point in this is, don't knock the skilled trades/truck drivers/car salesmen. etc. as many of them are making more money than those with university degrees but this only means something if you only place value on the size of someone's wallet.

I'm going to make an assumption here and say that every man I have dated probably made more money than me (and I earn a good wage). So if I'd have ended up with any of these guys I would have "married up". But that does not make me a gold digger, it means that it is what it is.
 WaywardWynde
Joined: 5/19/2007
Msg: 174
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History
increasing numbers of women are marrying men for their money
Posted: 1/15/2011 10:56:44 AM
Gee, I wonder why those two welders of titanium -- well trained by the U.S. Navy -- would CHOSE to work at Home Depot when the world "out there" was scratching away trying, trying, trying to get them to come weld for them. Why work 40 hours a week in retail when they could work until only early afternoon every Monday and make more $$$?

Well, I also know two guys (men who love sailboats as I do) who are 35+ year welders and who can handle titanium, work -- when they work at all -- after flying to the Persian Gulf to weld oil rigs. Each is careful with his money, some would say cheap.

Want me to ask them next time I see them just why they only work a little bit, when they could make a couple hundred grand a year working locally?

A little anecdote: I once saw a salesman show his every-other-week paycheck to the (blonde, shapely) receptionist, telling her it was his regular check. The receptionist came to me asking how she could become a salesperson, too, and make money like that. The clown had shown her his paycheck which happened to include a (no great shakes) commission check. I told her, but she insisted otherwise. I showed her the available-to-all reports on just how much commission that salesman had earned that year (very little) and how that particular check had his largest commission (as small as it was) of the year.

Lying about how much money they make is as common to men as lying about how much they weigh is as common to women. "Does this paycheck make my wallet look fat?"

Don't ever believe stories about how much money a man has/makes until you see his bank statements going back over some period of time. A paper napkin in a beer bar doesn't count.
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 175
increasing numbers of women are marrying men for their money
Posted: 1/15/2011 11:17:11 AM
I'm sorry WWW, but we are not stupid here. Some of us have relatives in occupations and we have a pretty good and accurate idea of their income. Some of us may have actually researched occupations because we were considering our own career or 2nd career paths, or simply to have information?

So you know 2 unambitious welders who have chosen to work at Home Depot, and that proves that all blue-collar/skilled trades men lie about their income?
Did you ever consider that an attitude that all women are dumb might be a problem for a man looking for a relationship and finding that all he could attract were gold-diggers ? Women who don't care about mutual respect for one anothers' intelligence and reasoning skills, women who are willing to be treated as idiots with an interesting hole between their legs as long as he's got a fat wallet?
Ever stop to think that attractive women who enjoy sex are looking for men who acknowledge and respect their intelligence, common sense, and general competence? NOT men who think women are gullible idiots?
It's been my observation that women worth having are not attracted to snobbish men who treat them in a patronizing and condescending manner.
Cindy O
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