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 sexyisback!
Joined: 9/14/2010
Msg: 52
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.Page 2 of 8    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8)


Why should being retarded or mentally ill in itself disqualify a person from becoming a parent? Are you saying one gives up their right to parenthood due to being a little slow? Or mentally challenged?.



Why should being retarded or mentally ill in itself disqualify a person from becoming a parent? Are you saying one gives up their right to parenthood due to being a little slow? Or mentally challenged?. {/quote]

if they cannot even take care of themselves ( i.e. living with gov't assistance and/or still with their own parents) it's fairly good clue they (she) would not be able to take care of ANOTHER little person..?
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 53
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/22/2011 9:24:48 AM
Oh my...

I almost agreed that if the Mother is the guardian/custodian of the mentally challanged daughter then she should have the right to have her daughter sterilized...and then I read thru this thread and read some of the other news media reports.

It seems in Britian there is already in place the requirement of a court review for such matters...

Under Britain’s Mental Capacity Act, passed in 2005, courts can decide on medical treatments for people deemed incompetent. Most cases, however, involve decisions about withdrawing intravenous food from patients in a permanent vegetative state.

British courts can also order abortions for women who lack the mental capacity to consent or compel lifesaving medical treatments that mentally disabled people might otherwise refuse


Such an important issue should have standards with checks and balances in place...it seems this is already in place in Britian...

Why is this thread in Relationships???
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 55
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History
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/22/2011 12:16:26 PM
But I am sure they have such a plan in place in the States also


I don't know about that. The problem I see is requiring someone to give up a fundamental right as a condition of getting something from government. The same problem would come up if the government offered to pay people to give up their right to vote.


The United States was the first country to concertedly undertake compulsory sterilization programs for the purpose of eugenics.


Eugenics was already a very big thing among progressives here by 1900. Writers here who advocated eugenics inspired interest in it in other countries--especially in Germany. Ideas about racial superiority had a lot to do with it here, too.
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 57
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/22/2011 12:24:15 PM
I do understand the issue of eugenics as a method of genetic engineering to create the master race...ala Adolph..

But, as a case by case issue...sent to the courts for analsys, review, and study...to deem inappropriate or not...seems almost fair...I haven't read any report about this particular case that says how mentally challanged the daughter is...but, if she cannot understand that sex, for some time to come, can produce a child...that possibly cannot be raised by the daughter...yanno...that's not eugenics...that's deciding to stop a baby machine from dumping uncared for children into the system.
 cooldude
Joined: 4/26/2004
Msg: 59
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/22/2011 12:31:38 PM

So taking away "my body, my choice" from women will totally put your tax dollars back in your wallet.
My taxes go to things i dont support, but oh well, once its out of my pocket its not my dollar anymore.


Her kids don't have a choice either, born to a mother that cannot take proper care of them. What if she does something dangerous that puts them in harms way? We are talking about mothers rights, but how about the children's rights? Who is looking after them? Apparently not the mother, she is incapable of doing so.
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 60
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/22/2011 12:38:25 PM

The part I don't understand is if the mother has legal rights over the daughter because of her mental incapacity, then why can't she organise birth control, whether the daughter wants it or not? If the daughter doesn't understand that sex leads to pregnancy, then how does she have the legal right to control her reproduction?


I never read in the news reports that the mother is the daughters conservator...even still, I can imagine, in some cases, where it would be impossible to get a challanged person to regularly take meds...I think the issue arises when the mother tries to surgically sterilize the daughter...the medical field in Britian has standards already set in such cases (see a couple of posts ago)...and a surgical sterilization must be decided by the court on a case by case basis...
 cookie22222
Joined: 8/4/2007
Msg: 61
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History
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/23/2011 6:02:54 AM
I don't know what the laws are there, but here at the age of 14 you have the right to refuse medication/medical procedures.
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 62
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/23/2011 7:39:44 AM

I don't know what the laws are there, but here at the age of 14 you have the right to refuse medication/medical procedures


Hmmm...even if a medical conservator has been appointed...and the appropriate studies have been done??? I'm taking for granted that we're speaking of the mentally retarded (gads I hate that word...but, it's still used)...I think that if someone has been deemed mentally retarded and has a medical conservator...that any refusal to take meds or mediacal proceedure....depending on the state/proceedure/medicine/nature of refusal....could end up being a court decision as well....
 slybandit
Joined: 7/10/2006
Msg: 63
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/23/2011 7:54:54 AM
"Reproductive rights rest on the recognition of the basic right of all couples and individuals to decide freely and responsibly the number, spacing and timing of their children and to have the information and means to do so, and the right to attain the highest standard of sexual and reproductive health. They also include the right of all to make decisions concerning reproduction free of discrimination, coercion and violence."

That's a statement from the World Health Organization.

It's not particularly realistic.

The number of people on the planet who have the "information and means" to decide these issues "freely and responsibly" is pretty limited. The number of people with that "information and means" who actually USE them is even more limited.

Sterilizing a woman with limited mental capacities is basically an admission of failure.

If we actually valued her "rights" enough, we would simply make arrangements for any children she has, to be raised by other people, and keep her in contact with them.

But we do not.

That's really the issue, no one wants to be burdened with the responsibility for the outcome of her reproductive "freedom"-- not that that "freedom" is really meaningful if she has no idea what she is doing and is not really making "decisions" about childbearing in any meaningful sense.

The solution in her case is fairly obvious, you put her on "temporary" contraception-- on a permanent basis-- because we're too squeamish to admit the real reasons for what we're doing. It's the same thing, of course, because we do not for a moment imagine she'll "get better" and suddenly function like a typical adult, so the "temporary" contraception is actually going to be permanent, but we dose her several times instead of once, and that makes all the difference.
 cookie22222
Joined: 8/4/2007
Msg: 64
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History
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/23/2011 7:57:45 AM
And often times does end up in court...ANYONE, age 14 or older, can refuse medication and/or treatment. Quite often the issue isn't about medical treatment, it's usually about psych meds and/or therapy for mental illness.

I would think that if someone has been appointed a "medical conservator" that they would then have the power to "force" someone into being medicated or treated, however, the reality of that doesn't paint a pretty picture. Can you imagine making an adult take any medication on a daily basis?
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 65
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/23/2011 7:59:52 AM
But I believe that there is a process in place where someone with strong relationship ties(parent/child, spouses,an adult sibling if they are next of kin) or a legally appointed/authorized guardian, can have that right set aside- FOR THAT PARTICULAR SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES!-if the refusal is being done due to diminished mental capacity. That isn't just about "mentally challenged" people, it could also be about someone who was suffering from a drug overdose, with a traumatic brain injury, someone in psychosis.
Perhaps the mother should just see about getting a standing order permitting her to have any of her daughters' subsequent pregnancies terminated? Would that be better? Or hey, lets not meddle-if the daughter has reached the age of majority, let the mother simply put the daughter and her kids out in the street and let 'em sinkor swim on their own.
Maybe some concerned organization or entity would take over the responsibility for this young woman and use her as a breeding machine to produce babies for adoption. Hey, I bet if the parents of this challenged young women know the right lawyers, they could turn their daughter into a regular cash cow, producing babies for "gray market" adoptions. Do those sound like BETTER solutions to anybody.
This is a difficult situation, a difficult decision. Thank Heaven there is SOME oversight, rather than giving the parents/guardians of mentally ill ,mentally challenged,autism spectrum adult children carte blanche to order birth control, sterilization procedures or abortions. No one is proposing that the laws be written allowing "punishment" in the form of sterilization to be meted out to every woman who gives birth to a child with serious challenges, or that challenged young adults be automatically sterilized.
Here's a thought?
Perhaps the OP could email some of the more outraged posters here the actual link to the story...then these angry posters could go through the appropriate channels to put in an offer to adopt this young womans' subsequent offspring? Or maybe a bunch of them could get together and create a fund to help support this family? Perhaps these folks, while I respect their outrage, ought to ask themselves what they'd do if their stance on the matter made them subject to having to put their money where their mouths are?
I for one am saying kudos to the mother/grandmother in this situation, that she's trying to cope within the bounds of the law and decency...when she COULD just put the young woman and her children out in the street-which would be her legal right if her daughter is of majority age.
Cindy O
 cookie22222
Joined: 8/4/2007
Msg: 68
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History
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/23/2011 8:28:55 AM
Iceman, that's my point - at 14, you can refuse all kinds of things, and they are regularly taken to court - I think that it's only a publicized issue when it's something dramatic, as in this case.

It's a real catch-22 for parents of "normal" or any other child - because medical neglect can be charged, if children aren't getting what is deemed necessary treatments or medications (psych or otherwise).
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 69
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/23/2011 8:55:33 AM
Ok now...rules and laws are different for every state...until federal law superceeds...

Anyway, if the court has appointed another "full conservator" with medical decision making rights....then...the conservator makes all medical decisions.

You see cookie:


Iceman, that's my point - at 14, you can refuse all kinds of things, and they are regularly taken to court - I think that it's only a publicized issue when it's something dramatic, as in this case.


We are all guardians for our children...and don't think of things until the worst happens...but, someone who's had great advice and been made a conservator, by the court, has planned well, and can make medical decisions for the conservatee...in all cases the conservator cannot approve medical treatment that is harmful to the conservatee....electro shock....ect...

Even still (and this is California statute-which googled up) sterilization is another issue:

Sterilization may occur in the context of a
limited conservatorship but only under certain narrow
circumstances. Sterilization cannot occur in any instance where
it is determined that the individual knowingly opposes
sterilization. Even absent this opposition, for a sterilization
to occur, a special procedure must be followed which involves
many protections for the limited conservatee. These protections
include: mandatory appointment of counsel for the limited
conservatee, appointment of a "facilitator" to assist the
limited conservatee, assembly of a special panel of experts to
personally interview the limited conservatee and make a
recommendation to the court, and investigation by the
appropriate regional center.


You see the issue is if the conservatee (the impaired person) can give "informed consent" for medical attention...(informed consent is the criteria in all the states)...so, the following is what California (just what googled up my friends) does in cases where there is a conservatorship and the conservatee cannot give informed consent:

1. Consent to Treatment -- Since January 1, 1981, a conservator
does not have the power to consent to medical treatment on
behalf of the conservatee unless a court order is obtained which
authorizes substituted consent. The only exception to this rule
is that consent may be given without a court order if the
conservatee does not object to the proposed treatment.

The order authorizing substituted consent may be one which finds
the conservatee incapable of giving consent to any form of
treatment and transfers the sole power of consent to the
conservator. Such an order need be obtained only once since it
applies to all forms of permitted treatment. If the conservatee
is capable of consenting to some forms of treatment but not
others, then the conservator must wait until treatment is
required and obtain an order relating to the specific form of
treatment proposed.


all exerts from:
This handbook has been prepared by the Association for Retarded
Citizens-California (ARC-C), formerly the California Association
for the Retarded (C.A.R.) prior to changing its name on February
5, 1981.


 cookie22222
Joined: 8/4/2007
Msg: 70
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History
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/23/2011 10:49:34 AM
Yes I know...that was sort of my point, it gets done more often than you think. I also think that even if you have the paper in your hand - if it's something that isn't more run of the mill you may very well end up back in court, and definitely will in the circumstances above. I think often the disabled person's "advocate" who may be appointed in these cases can be the one to get public opinion involved, hoping that pressure on the court will weigh in their favor.

Of course, in this case any advocate won't have to be the one to take the subsequent baby out of this woman's arms. Or be there when she is upset that it was taken from her. Or when she flies into a rage, or goes into a depression over the whole thing.
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 72
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/23/2011 12:11:43 PM
ecial procedure must be followed which involves
many protections for the limited conservatee. These protections
include: mandatory appointment of counsel for the limited
conservatee, appointment of a "facilitator" to assist the
limited conservatee, assembly of a special panel of experts to
personally interview the limited conservatee and make a
recommendation to the court, and investigation by the
appropriate regional center.




Which brings me back to my original point ,Why is some friggen bureaucrat deciding this case? It shouldn't be left to the courts/politicians, I think its should be a team of doctors deciding this , especially if there isnt a legal guardian in place.


Ok...a guardian is for a minor only...a conservator for minors and adults..a guardian or a conservator need not be an immediate realitive it can be a third party...or it can be a parent-guardian or conservator....minor's gaurdians are there parents right off the bat-unless Child Protective Services has removed this right.

Sterilization of a conservatee is not left to politicians...it's left to the court to decide on a case by case upon completion of a study by a panel of experts....Of course all this is what we do in the states...on a state by state basis and what I'm showing is California...

But, what I've shown is that a "limited conservator" needs to have a special appointment as the consentor for the consentee who lacks the ability to give "informed consent"

A "full conservator" with medical appointment power is able to give consent because the conservatee is already deemed unable to give consent.

Where I get confused is the rules for sterilization apply to "limited conservatorship"...Now I see why this goes to the court...they referee the whole process.

Anyway...it does seem like a good process that a team of specialists gets together....determines the medical necessity...and determines to what degree the conservatee is unable to give "informed consent"....in this manner peoples who actually understand whats happening (not all challanged have the same degree of challange) would not be sterilized against their wishes.

There was a discussion about eugenics...I don't see any genetic engineering here...just people trying to make the best decision possible for all involved....and I'm thinking this is the case for the Mum and daughter in England...pretty much the same proceedure...see if the daughter understands...and is capable of giving "informed consent"
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 74
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/23/2011 2:15:20 PM
Hey, I'm not the one who was ranting about sterilizing women who give birth to handicapped children and raving about the government getting into someones uterus.
Some are making this one matter, being studied and decided by a court of law, is greasing the skids at the top of the "slippery slope" and that forced birth control and euthanasia of any group deemed problematic will become reality in a short time.
I'm simply inviting those who see a problem to be a part of the solution. Personally, I think both the mother/grandmother AND the court are trying to do whats' best for everyone in a difficult situation. I doubt that it can be GOOD for this challenged young woman to be popping out kid after kid,and having them put up for adoption.
And does anybody besides me feel a little nauseous about the idea of males who would take advantage of a woman who is of diminished mental capacity.
It's been my observation, in a couple of cases with close friends or extended family, that many mentally challenged women who ARE capable of living more or less independently really have very little judgement and impulse control when it comes to sex. A lot of them really do love children but could NOT raise children without a great deal of assistance on many levels.
Cindy O
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 76
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/23/2011 4:15:32 PM

And does anybody besides me feel a little nauseous about the idea of males who would take advantage of a woman who is of diminished mental capacity


Yep...the sight of two mentally challanged people bumpin' ugglies at the adult day care just makes me puke.
 NotGorshkovAgain
Joined: 4/29/2009
Msg: 77
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History
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/23/2011 4:17:18 PM
I don't think the problem is with the extreme cases, where the answer is pretty obvious to almost anybody.

The problem is where the cases are NOT so obvious and cut & dried - that's when you get into the messy questions of who gets to decide, and on what basis.
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 79
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/23/2011 4:29:36 PM
TDH
go back and read the OT-from the way it's worded, I don't think that the mentally challenged young womans' parents are getting ANY assistance and maybe they don't WANT to permit their daughter to keep reproducing and FORCING the family onto assistance.
I understand the slippery slope concern, but it sounds like this is an established process with checks and balances in place.
Otherwise, why shouldn't the mother/grandmother exercise HER right to a peaceful retirement by putting her sexually irresponsible daughter and her offspring out on the street? If the young woman has reached the legal age threshold of adulthood, it seems to me like the parents could say they'd done their part, they won't be responsible anymore for her, her behavior or the consequences of her behavior.
Or perhaps putting the challenged young woman in an institutional setting would be the answer.
It sounds to me like the parents of this impaired young woman are trying to do whats' best for their daughter without putting themselves in the poorhouse or allowing their daughter to become a professional welfare mother.
I too hope that the court can simply order a reliable medically supervised longterm birth-control method to be administered to the young woman. And nobody is suggesting that this young woman be curbed in her reproductive behavior because there is or might be anything wrong with the existing children...its' simply a matter of her lack of self-control and sexual responsibilty is creating lives that SHE cannot care for, and perhaps her parents ARE looking ahead to what happens if they become incapacitated or pass away...what becomes of their challenged daughter and her houseful of kids that she can't look after? You don't think hearts aren't going to break if the court HAS to step in,in such an event, and the children are shipped off to foster homes and the mother is put in an adult foster care home?
And my comment about the young lady being taken advantage of , was based on a presumption that the men having sex with her are normal but can't get a woman of standard intellect and function to have sex with them. I suppose it IS possible that the male partner(s) are challenged men that she's meeting at adult day care or in the sheltered workshop. But it is not uncommon for a functional but challenged young female to be exploited by men who couldn't GET a woman of normal mental acuity.
IF the young lady was involved in a stable relationship, even if it were with a challenged man, it seems to me like there could be other alternatives-like HIS family contrbuting to the efforts to care for the children. For the mother to be seeking legal support for birth control or sterilization suggests that a stable relationship is NOT the case here.
Cindy O
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 81
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/23/2011 5:34:49 PM
Listen you all can sit here and try to read between the lines about how disabled this daughter is...was it a "normal" man who impregnated her...was it the same man the second time...is the daughter in a stable relationship....

Chryste on a friggin' crutch...we all read the sam article TDH posted...and ya'll could squeeze that much BS out of it???

We know nothing about the extent of the disability...we know:
1) ma ain't taken care O no more babies...
2)the court is waiting for more info to decide (OK...I read another article that said the court would have it's info in May to decide).

I may have forgot sumthin-but those are the facts.

How's about taking this debate around the world, or at least the POF world and discussing what different locals would do in such a case give the exact same details...

What are the proceedures followed...does it look like eugenics in some of these different locals...yanno...an intellectual debate...rather than makin up BS.
 LabradorOokpik
Joined: 6/30/2007
Msg: 84
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History
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/23/2011 11:00:53 PM
My last two psych texts (published within the last year or two) used the word "retarded" to describe people who are mentally challenged. Can't say it's a word I'd use, though, I feel uncomfortable with it personally, but it is used in texts.
 cooldude
Joined: 4/26/2004
Msg: 85
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/23/2011 11:57:04 PM

It seems clear that the point being made is that neither of those words are socially acceptable anymore.
Sure, they're still used... by ignorant individuals. Not the point.


People read into this way too much. Retarded, midget & negro, while a bit outdated, are not and have never been bad words. Obviously the slang words were often used in a derogatory way are meant to be bad.

People are so worried about offending someone, probably due to the related slang words, tried to change it.

For instance the word "negro" means "black" in Spanish and Portuguese. Obviously we don't have a problem saying black.

These words are still used today even though not as much as in the past.

Ever hear of the United Negro College Fund?
 Revilors
Joined: 10/9/2008
Msg: 86
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/24/2011 8:04:21 AM

"non compos mentis" -- not of sound mind. this is why the judge handling the case is correctly asking for expert evidence. he needs to recuse himself from making that kind of a determination independently, while at the same time have the proper evidence to make a competent and well-reasoned decision.


Exactly what I was going to say. This judge not only want to make an informed decision...but also want to make one that will stand the test of self-righteous special interest groups that will contest it later to serve their cause. These uncharged waters need to be navigated meticulously so that those that follow...will find their way.

Plus...done incorrectly...it can open a legal can of worms that will cause it to self destruct.

The problem is...is that this mother has bore the burden of providing for her now adult daughter and grandchildren and probably cannot afford to pay for these "expert" opinions on top of her other legal fees.

I hope she gets some help.

She could have made her daughter a ward of the government and all subsequent offspring. She's trying to do whats right it seems in her specific case.
 Revilors
Joined: 10/9/2008
Msg: 88
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/24/2011 10:37:23 AM

By the way! just because I oppose this girl being sterilized, don't mean I think she should have anymore kids. She obviously can't care for them, so she need to stop having them. So in that regard I am totally on board. It's the method that I have a serious problem with. Why open such a can of worms if it's not really required? Why not go the less sinister route first before taking such extreme measures?


What would you suggest that may be less sinister? Locking her up in the home? Perhaps a chastity belt? Monitor/restrict her relationships and every move?

I find sterilization as the best way to solve the issue without diminishing her quality of life. She can still live her life and even have intimate relationships and sex. Go to movies with guys (without being guarded), lunches, walks or whatever she wants. Just not able to be impregnated. I have done some work with the developmentally disabled...and one thing is clear...we and they want to be as independent as possible. That level is based on their level of disability. Clearly she is not able to fully see the ramifications of bringing children into this world. And clearly this behavior needs to be stopped. She could conceivably bring another 20 to 30 kids into this world. It would take a toll on her health, kill her mother after a dozen and create a very uncertain future for her existing and future children.

I'm would not be in favor of this either...if there was a better way.

I don't see a better way. (given limited knowledge anyway)

As to the fathers...they are most likely developmentally disabled or predators...and in either case I doubt able or willing to be fathers.
 cookie22222
Joined: 8/4/2007
Msg: 91
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History
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/24/2011 11:13:28 AM
Sterilization has a higher success rate than any birth control - and it's a one time deal. If the daughter is against any birth control, that could be a yearly battle. Possibly even a court battle each year, if a group with an agenda got involved.

As to the whole guardian/conservator/advocate thing - even when something has already legally been put into place, often times doctors and hospitals will ask for a court order for a specific treatment - CYA you know!
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