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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)      Home login  
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 PittsburghVixen
Joined: 6/27/2009
Msg: 26
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)Page 2 of 10    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)
@HalftimeDad and Nipoleon... condescend much?

Krugman is a self-defined liberal. Liberals tend to hate Rand's laissez-faire, "get the hell out of my way", individualistic philosophy. I think Rand herself would have actually been rather alarmed if the movie had been made as a big-budget epic targeted to the mass market.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 27
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 3/19/2011 8:01:44 PM
Paul Krugman is a Nobel prize winning economist. He hates stupidity.
 Cdn_Iceman
Joined: 12/1/2010
Msg: 28
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 3/19/2011 8:26:43 PM

Her message is great for 14 year olds who really get into Rush, but most of us grow up. As Mark Twain said (I'm pretty sure it wasn't Mark Twain, but I can't be bothered to google it), "For every complex problem there is always a simple solution. Which is invariably wrong." It's a philosophy for 14 year boys who discover pot at the same time they are blown away by Neil Pert.

First things its Neil Peart not Pert, what does Ann Rand's philosophy has to with the Band Rush, besides Neil Peart being a fan of her works, second your hero Paul Krugman works well some of it is questionable, he was the first to argue about deregulation of the California energy market had led to market manipulation by the California energy companies etc, He doesn't scoff at the idea of free markets as long as its suits him and his $20,000.00 per hour speaking fee, for guy a who subscribes him self as a Keynesian, he's come out against Rent Control, minimum wage, prefers " sweat shops to unemployment.

You cant be a advocate of Free markets and then subscribe to the Keynesian theory, its wishy washy.

I follow Milton Friedman theories and works ( another Nobel Prize winning economist) most of its is inline with Rand's philosophies.

Bush and Obama is also subscribes the Keynesian theory and we know America is doing financially too.
 nipoleon
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 29
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History
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 3/19/2011 9:53:32 PM
Do you or do you not, expect your neighbors son to fight and die defending your country, your home, and your business ?
If you do ?..... don't complain about how you don't owe anything back to society.
If you expect other peoples children to help protect your property, then don't complain about how society " mooches " off you.
 PittsburghVixen
Joined: 6/27/2009
Msg: 30
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 3/20/2011 12:27:08 PM
^^^ Apparently you have a total misunderstanding of Objectivism and Rand's work. Your loss.
 PittsburghVixen
Joined: 6/27/2009
Msg: 31
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 3/20/2011 12:29:48 PM

Paul Krugman is a Nobel prize winning economist. He hates stupidity.


If he defines stupidity as anything contrary to his liberal beliefs, it still does not logically follow that a non-liberal belief is stupid.
 CMonster
Joined: 12/4/2004
Msg: 32
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 3/20/2011 6:55:11 PM

Do you or do you not, expect your neighbors son to fight and die defending your country, your home, and your business ?
If you do ?..... don't complain about how you don't owe anything back to society.
If you expect other peoples children to help protect your property, then don't complain about how society " mooches " off you.

WHAT???!!!???

Apparently you have a total misunderstanding of Objectivism and Rand's work. Your loss.

If "Atlas" is the second most influential book in the world, the Cliff Notes version must be the second most misunderstood.
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 33
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 3/23/2011 3:06:44 PM
Damn. I love this book. It really opened my eyes. But this movie? It....it looks just awful. Like, the acting is ridged, the dialogue goes back and forth way too quickly, the CGI looks fresh from 1998- its a B-Movie. Which is awful. I feel the book deserved more.
 nipoleon
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 34
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History
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 3/23/2011 7:05:22 PM
Ayn Rand's basic philosophy is the " supremacy of the individual ".
That all people are purely independent agents and totally responsible for their own rewards or failings in life. Rand hates any compromise between the individual and society and anything which stands in the way of the freedom of the individual. She hates the idea that any individual " owes " anything back to society .

Naturally, Ayn Rand hates government. Not just any government but all governments in all their forms. She despises governments and society, which she feels " mooches " upon the full and rightful rewards of individual achievement.

This all sounds very nice, in that it appeals to natural human selfishness.
After all, why shouldn't every person enjoy the complete fruits of their labor ? Those who desire to achieve will succeed and those who don't desire to achieve will naturally fail.
Obviously, the rich are rich because they deserve to be rich.
Obviously, the poor are poor because they deserve to be poor.
Aren't the poor only parasites who seek sustenance from the achievements of the rich and successful ?

NO.

Ayn Rands ideas along with modern Libertarian Free Market theories are simply perversions of the Free Market economic theories of Adam Smith. Adam Smith never proposed a totally unrestricted, laissez fair, dog eat dog, Free Market. He knew the world didn't work that way.

We humans, whether anyone likes it or not, are social creatures.
We come from society and live in society. We all do " owe " a debt of obligation to society. Everything we do is about the society we live in.
We all " owe ", to our families, our friends, our neighbors, our communities, our country, and to the world at large.
As a society, we all share in the fortunes and failures of everyone else. We all have a vested interest in the success of everyone else.
No one can be a success, when everyone else is a failure, no matter what Ayn Rand or the Libertarians want.

Being successful isn't simply a matter of pulling yourself up. A true success helps bring others up along too, purposely, not just by the accident of association.
 Cdn_Iceman
Joined: 12/1/2010
Msg: 35
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 3/23/2011 7:59:11 PM
Nipeon that proves you have no Idea what Rand was saying or writing about, she's never said hates the government or we should abolish government, she said she wishes there was LESS government, the government role is to protect society from foreign and domestic enemies, provide law and order, protecting people right to their property, business etc.

The role of the government isnt to interfere in the free markets, or splitting up the fortunes certain people made because they had to the vision , the guts to see their dreams come true, so should the government take away Bill Gates fortune because some guy working at KFC cant afford to live in a $400,000.00 house and is pissed off because he has to live in his mothers basement?

You remind of the extremist that reads the Qur’an and distorts the scriptures for their own purposes?

Rand's work has been misinterpreted so many times its actually a joke .These" intellects" who are quick to dismiss it without fully understanding what she was saying and then offers up either silly solutions or has no solution at all.

Not once even in her newsletters has she ever said She hated government. She has proved the government has created some of the problems we have even today and she's been dead since 1982.
 CMonster
Joined: 12/4/2004
Msg: 36
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 3/23/2011 10:22:11 PM
Either you haven't read the book in question, or you got all your information from others who despise her attitude of not having an overbearing central govt that controls all.


Rand's work has been misinterpreted so many times its actually a joke .These" intellects" who are quick to dismiss it without fully understanding what she was saying and then offers up either silly solutions or has no solution at all.

Like I said, the Cliff Notes version of "Atlas" is the second most misunderstood version of Cliff Notes.
 U make it entertaining
Joined: 7/17/2009
Msg: 37
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 3/24/2011 8:01:03 AM
I read the book ... well I cheated ... I listened to the audio as I traveled down to the states with my youngest son. He was very intrigued with the story, and it made for some great conversation on the way down and back.

Can_Iceman your explanation posted above is right on!
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 38
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 3/24/2011 8:32:08 AM
One thing I've noticed with all cults, whether it's Scientology, Objectivism, or any other - is that criticism is always met with the accusation that it comes from incomplete understanding.

Ayn Rand was a best selling author. She was also a bit of a loon - just take a look at her private life. Those who are her devotees got sucked in by a good story; not a good philosophy.
 nipoleon
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 39
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History
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 3/24/2011 11:43:26 AM

The best thing a person can do is to take care of themselves, so fellow humans in the society you live in DON'T HAVE to take care of you.

The object is not a society where people take care of each other because the HAVE to.
The object is a society of people who take care of each other because they WANT to.

This is the great evil of modern free market thought.
The idea that all a person has to do is make money, and fend for yourself, and that by itself takes care of all your social obligations. The idea that greed is not just good, but greed is actually a virtue.
Ayn Rand talks about " enlightened self interest ", but in practice it's " self-absorbed self interest ".
When Adam Smith talks about " enlightened self interest ", he means the understanding that what is good for every member of society is also good for all members of society. That we all have an interest in everybody's success. The more successful everyone else is the more successful everyone will be.

Every real American should encourage and support the success of every other American. We should encourage every thing we can to give opportunity to all the other members of our society. Today's rich have lost the simple understanding that the more prosperous the middle class is, the more prosperous they become too.

Whenever a free marketer says that the best good is not to be a burden on society, do they also feel that the best good they could do for their parents is not to be a burden on them too ?
Adam Smith understood that family and friends don't see each other that way.

Why are free marketers so obsessed about someone taking something from them ?
Why are free marketers so materialistic ?

Naturally, you will all tell me how I just don't understand.

Our Father, who art on Wall Street,
Hallowed be thy profit.
Thy economic kingdom come, thy tax break will be done.
On the estate as it is on capitol gains.

Give us this day our daily dividend,
And forgive us our bad speculations, as the government forgives us too.

For thine is the kingdom and glory of money for ever and ever.
Caveat Emptor.
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 40
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 3/24/2011 2:31:56 PM
>>>Ayn Rand was a best selling author. She was also a bit of a loon - just take a look at her private life.

So? We're arguing ideas here, not people. Rand was not Galt- the idealized example of a person. She merely presented the idea in a clear and rational manner. This is no different than people saying Darwin was wrong because he married his cousin.
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 41
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 3/24/2011 2:44:15 PM
>>>The object is a society of people who take care of each other because they WANT to.

And if people want to, that's great. But we aren't objecting to people choosing to help others- we're objecting to people forcing, through the threat of violence or coercion, to help. That is immoral.

>>>that by itself takes care of all your social obligations.

I'm reminded of Animal Farm here- you say social obligations- but is there laws that state these obligations? Is there any form of written contract so people understand their obligations? Or are these merely implied- assumed- and demanded of people?

>>>The more successful everyone else is the more successful everyone will be.

And Rand also states this. Your self-interest doesn't always mean tripping people so you can be at the front of the line- because the repercussions of this can often have negative impacts on your self-interest. Being selfish is easy. Being self-invested, however, takes thought and consideration.

>>>do they also feel that the best good they could do for their parents is not to be a burden on them too ?

Nope! Parents do so out of their own self-interest- again, you seem to be confusing selfishness with self-interest. If you have something to gain- even a good feeling- you are doing it out of your own self-interest.

>>>Why are free marketers so obsessed about someone taking something from them ?

They're not. They're obsessed with earning things, not taking things. The Mooches take things. People who say that you don't deserve your money, and demand that you share it with everyone or you will be assaulted- those people take things.
 CMonster
Joined: 12/4/2004
Msg: 42
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 3/24/2011 2:51:30 PM
Give a man a fish and he eats for a day.

Teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime.

Expect a man to fish for himself and he will tell the government that they should take the fish from you and give it to them because it isn't fair that you have fish and they don't. It doesn't matter that you had to buy the bait, the fishing pole and the boat and spend the time and the effort to catch the fish.

Welcome to the b@stardization of "equality."
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 43
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 3/24/2011 4:02:18 PM

So? We're arguing ideas here, not people. Rand was not Galt- the idealized example of a person. She merely presented the idea in a clear and rational manner. This is no different than people saying Darwin was wrong because he married his cousin.

There's a profound difference between a scientist and a philosopher - especially one like Rand.

Darwin simply made scientific observations and formed a thesis. Rand (despite how she dressed it up) was talking values. When someone is talking values their personal life does come into the discussion. We see in newspapers many examples of men who loudly proclaim certain values and then are found to not live by them - the list is too exhaustive to even start.

Rand wasn't a hypocrite. She did live her life by her philosophy - the one she wanted everyone to live by. The fact that she spent that life using, discarding and generally treating people like sh*t therefore does enter the conversation.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 44
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 3/24/2011 5:02:51 PM

she was against an overbearing, all controlling central state....

Is that profound? That puts her in the same company as Thoreau, many monarchies, every president of the US, and countless leaders of other countries throughout history. If that is all she is offering (which I have reason to doubt), her ideas are not at all original or profound and are even more overrated than I thought.

Should we discuss bill clinton's personal life? Or, lets say, ted kennedy?, Or shall we discuss barney franks personal life?

Not at all surprisingly, you omitted Newt Gingrich and Rudy Guiliani from the list.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 45
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 3/24/2011 6:08:20 PM
I had no idea Bill Clinton, Ted Kennedy or Barney Frank were philosophers - here I thought they were just politicians.

Apparently you wish to believe that Rand's philosophy was limited to arguing for smaller government. That's disingenuous at best. I've never read the books you have, and even I know she argued for a much more radical and all encompassing world view.

Objectivism is a philosophy the same way Scientology is a religion, or a Bazooka Joe comic is a graphic novel. There's a reason it isn't taken seriously. Anyone who can think critically will dismiss it. It isn't worth rebutting since anyone who could be swayed by a rebuttal wouldn't need one in the first place.
 PittsburghVixen
Joined: 6/27/2009
Msg: 46
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 3/24/2011 6:42:57 PM

I've never read the books you have


Am I reading this correctly? Did you just say that you never read Rand's books? Yet here you are attacking them and attacking the people who HAVE read the books, and telling us that we cannot think critically.

Oy.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 47
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 3/24/2011 6:59:39 PM
Paul,

When you mention an "overbearing and all controlling state," it sounds to me like you are talking about totalitarianism, so I responded in that context. If you are talking about something other than totalitarianism, you need to define your terms more clearly in order to have a meaningful discussion.

If you are claiming that "most of govts. today" are totalitarian, that is not a reasonable or fair claim, IMO. In other words, a non-starter.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 48
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 3/24/2011 8:26:25 PM
it bothers me and a lot of others

Of that, I have no doubt. What I doubt is:

A. Genuineness. You (and a lot of others) possibly may not be as genuine in your ideals as you make out to be. As comedian Jon Stewart humorously pointed out, "It seems to me that those who want limited government really just want government limited... to Republicans."

B. Knowledge of the ramifications of the ideology. Many things sound good on paper but do not pan out so well in the real world. If you (and a lot of others) got your way in true Objectivist or Libertarian fashion, we would be stepping over sick children and elderly on the way to the store. The needs of the neediest outpace the most generous charities by a pretty large margin-- especially in tough economic times.

That all said-- any successful examples of this Objectivist, everybody gets what they deserve society in history? Or even unsuccessful ones that lasted longer than a year or so?


Totalitarian states are yet another level all together

Oh, you mean there IS a level of government well beyond "all controlling"?
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 49
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 3/24/2011 9:28:13 PM
I see no need to explain to you just how wrong you are as far as your assumption that because I want a smaller less intrusive govt. does not mean that I want to let people die in the street.

You see no need in constructing an opposing argument on a debate thread? You could at least explain how Rand's philosophy would help those who are unable to help themselves.

Lets look at a city that is unquestionably the liberal mecca of the US....... San Francisco.... Have you been there lately? There are streets that reek of human waste, and more homeless in the streets than in any other city I have seen.

I honestly thought you had been to more cities. You emigrated from a Communist regime, no?

San Francisco consistently rates very high as one of the most desirable large cities to live in in the US. The only low grade for it is affordability. Because you bring up the point, you can largely thank the Reagan admin for cutting funding to mental institutions which caused the homeless problem to skyrocket across the country. That said, try going to Bangkok where you can walk around amputees sleeping on the sidewalk, or Tijuana where the women sitting on the sidewalk will raise a cup to you... and it won't be to make a toast.

Expressing one's doubts is not the same as making assumptions. And you have yet to show that my doubts are misplaced.

That all said-- any successful examples of this Objectivist, everybody gets what they deserve society in history?
 Cdn_Iceman
Joined: 12/1/2010
Msg: 50
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 3/24/2011 9:32:43 PM

Apparently you wish to believe that Rand's philosophy was limited to arguing for smaller government. That's disingenuous at best. I've never read the books you have, and even I know she argued for a much more radical and all encompassing world view. -halftimedad
Give me a break, you've never read her works and yet you comment on it ? your condescending attitude is hilarious, why on earth do you feel you that you are qualified to make some sort of judgment on a book(s) you've never read? If you haven't read her books, you cant really write a report on it, now can you?
No matter how much you THINK you know what her books is probably about ?a philosophy you heard some talk show host or your buddies talk about , something you read in the papers or perhaps some guy on the Oprah show giving his views.

Ive never had a vagina, but Ive enjoyed a few in my time and it doesn't make me a expert on it, and im certainly not going to talk to a woman about the vagina what it can or cannot do.


">Objectivism is a philosophy the same way Scientology is a religion, or a Bazooka Joe comic is a graphic novel. There's a reason it isn't taken seriously. Anyone who can think critically will dismiss it. It isn't worth rebutting since anyone who could be swayed by a rebuttal wouldn't need one in the first place.<
yeah okay, that's why its the second most sold book after " the bible" and people like you can have opinions that its not to be taken seriously, I guess a lot of successful people dont take it seriously?her books philosophy has been responsible for creating more successful people, millionaire, billionaire and financially well off people, so who are you again?

Oh wait people like you will preach " money is the root of all evil" or " money isn't important" " there's more to life than money" Love is important, taking care of the needy and society is what matters right? yet you are the first to line up for lotto tickets at the gas station and hold up the friggen line, all because you want a piece of the pie that you think you deserve?
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