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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)      Home login  
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 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 148
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Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)Page 9 of 10    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)
I suspect part of the reason Rand gets misunderstood, is a result of the intense, almost child-like earnestness that she released in her arguments. The Galt speech is a classic example, in that it sounds VERY high-handed, and over the top, while trying to make hard points about respect for ALL individuals. The "taking the ball and going home" simile is only accurate, if you include that the other kids wanted to USE the ball to break the windows of every kid they didn't like, and not just to play a nice game of soccer or whatever.

I have long suspected that the goal of MOST religious leaderships, like most of the "well meaning" dictators, is to try to TAKE A SHORTCUT to paradise. Telling the world of individuals that they must EACH learn to think for themselves, that they must learn all about the world around them to do so, and that they can NOT just jump straight into heavenly approval, isn't a short-term success plan.

This is what gives me patience in dealing with the religious zealots who want me, and everyone else, to put them in charge, and follow their interpretation of a god's desires. MOST of them earnestly believe that the world will be improved tremendously, if everyone is forced to pretend to tow the religious line. One of the things Rand and I agree on, is that it actually DEFEATS the religion itself, to force people to follow it.

In a somewhat similar way, the portion of the GOP that is trying to destroy Unions, is actually working to sabotage the very free market that they THINK they are arguing for. They think that a "free" market, is one controlled entirely by the business OWNERS. That's a contradiction in terms, all by itself.
 1234deleted1234
Joined: 10/8/2009
Msg: 150
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 5/6/2011 8:24:52 AM
There hasn't been a conservative presidential candidate since Reagan....and he WAS a Democrat until the LINE moved to the left and left him standing on the RIGHT.
I think it's funny that the Democrats hail JFK. JFK's policies TODAY would place him so far to the RIGHT that even the republicans would see him as a whack-job! He tried to take us back to the gold standard and wipe out the Fed Reserve for Gawd sake.

Newt Gingrinch and Alan Keyes are some that would have made good candidates but they where too far RIGHT for even the GOP.
 CMonster
Joined: 12/4/2004
Msg: 151
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 5/6/2011 9:52:07 AM

You mentioned the GOP, these folks are not advocates of Capitalism ,These GOP folks are traitors to capitalism and they are running the plays of Social Democrat playbook: if it moves, tax it; if it keeps moving, regulate it; if it stops moving, subsidize it; and if it dies, nationalize it. After eight years of this during the Bush Administration , no wonder the GOP faithful are disillusioned.

Well said. Disillusioned, disorganized and scrambling in multiple directions without a solid platform.

Anyways back on topic, as in your point of " controlling the free market" that's the furthest from the truth, capitalist dont want control the free market, they want to control their own business be " free" to trade without restriction, the essence of what a " free market" is supposed to be about, not controlling it.

For some strange reason there are people who believe that Capitalist want to control the free market because they don't want the government to control it. Like you said, it's called "free" for a reason and it shouldn't be controlled what so ever. Unfortunately, there are an abundance of people who feel that there always need to be someone in control in order to protect liberties by controlling them. It doesn't make sense.
 CMonster
Joined: 12/4/2004
Msg: 152
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 5/6/2011 9:31:34 PM
I see you didn't watch the video I linked.

Yes, I watched the video you linked but I understood it.

Hey, if it doesn't matter to you that the mother's utmost goal should be self gratification, then who am I to judge.


Actually, to be accurate, to be accountable for "the achievement of their own happiness" was the goal, not gratification. The difference is that most people would rationally like to have happiness in their lives. The term "self gratification" on the other hand, is typically used in the negative sense when someone gets their pleasure at the expense of someone else.

I think it's both interesting that you used the term "self gratification" and that if you were a man, you would think twice before being with a woman who was looking for happiness; but I'm not judging you. You absolutely have the right to choose to be with someone who doesn't believe their happiness is important. It does make one wonder about marriages that dissolve on the grounds that someone isn't happy in the relationship anymore. It's not as if a person's own happiness is important when other people are involved.

I was responding to relevancy in why her novels and philosophies avoided the role of children in society. It's very apparent that she had no use for them, and she couldn't speak to the one of the glaring problems with her philosophy....seems women tend to love their offsprings illogically.

I don't understand how you could believe that she would think that a woman, seeking her own happiness by becoming a mother, would be illogical. How did you come to that conclusion, by just omission? Isn't that illogical?

The beauty of Wisconsin is Dems won because the GOP needed them and couldn't have them.

Regardless of who won, they did what they though they had to do to make a point. In your perspective, they were acting like spoiled brats who were angry because they didn't get their way initially, right? Unless, of course, it only applies to certain people.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 153
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Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 5/6/2011 11:04:17 PM
I'm sorry to have sidetracked this thread by mentioning politics and capitalism, but I will make one minor response to Ice:
Please note that I specifically said "the portion of the GOP that is trying to destroy unions."
And by the way, it is not "on topic" in this particular thread to debate what constitutes free market capitalism. That's another thread. This one is about Atlas Shrugged.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 155
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 5/7/2011 9:09:36 AM
Thought I'd check in on this thread now that the movie has opened and closed.

Rotten Tomatoes shows that it gets a 13% rating among critics - even that is probably juked up by reviews on right wing websites. It's apparently a bad movie. I honestly don't know why you'd want to see a bad adaptation of a book you love anyway. I still hate Rob Reiner for the movie version of The Princess Bride - I loved the book as a kid and he made a movie that DIDN'T INCLUDE THE ZOO OF DEATH!!!

And here's a shameless plug for the Second City Network on youtube. They are so much funnier than just about anything else out there. They have a trailer for Atlas Shrugged Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheSecondCityNetwork?blend=7&ob=5#p/u/14/seKhVJDOzlQ
 CMonster
Joined: 12/4/2004
Msg: 157
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 5/7/2011 10:24:08 AM
Since there's another, renewed interest in Rand and her philosophy, a new feature film is in production called "Inside the Mind of Ayn Rand." It's due for release Q1/2012. It will focus on mapping her views to today's issues in an attempt to educate on what the philosophy is truly about and including some biographical information. It's not going to be in the line of "A Sense of Life." It's due for release in Q1/2012 and there will also be a DVD release.
 CMonster
Joined: 12/4/2004
Msg: 158
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 5/14/2011 6:30:09 PM
Well, Aglialoro hasn't given up on the sequels but he's learned a few lessons. First and foremost, he's making sure that he has an appropriate marketing plan in place prior to getting waist-deep in production. Second, he believes spending more on production would help. Finally, he feels that he should definitely partner with a major studio the next time around and leverage some of their experience.

Well, one thing that can be said is that he's no Howard Roark, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.
 sd_matt
Joined: 7/9/2006
Msg: 159
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 5/17/2011 2:33:41 AM
I'm skipping to the end so if I repeat something then let me know.

For those that have not read the book it indeed is not without its flaws. Nonetheless what it does it does very very well.

It reminds us that the parasites are both rich and poor. It exposes a form of slavery that hides behind guilt amongst other things.

We all know how capitalism can go to far. Its old news. But how does socialism/communism go too far or go wrong? This is the meat and potatoes of the book in my opinion. Rand examines the thinking/rationales/crony ism, psudo-intellectualism ect. associated with socialism gone awry in greater depth than anyone that I know. If Im wrong the prove it by reading the book. If you read the cliff notes then those of who have read the entire book will most likely know.

And FYI it does address crony capitalism too.

I get it that pure capitalism is not good. As a matter of fact can anyone here name a society with an average standard of living that is decent and is either pure capitalist or pure socialist/communist? I cant.

This book is something to read, amongst others, to complete your thinking. It is not, by any means, the only book to complete it but it is an essential one if you truly have an open mind.
 CMonster
Joined: 12/4/2004
Msg: 161
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 5/23/2011 5:11:14 PM
I can't even refer to it as "crony capitalism," it's just plain thievery which an affront to the essence of Capitalism. In Capitalism, people produce and trade things of value. Once someone begins cooking the books or literally taking something like kickbacks, it sullies the concept fundamentally.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 162
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 5/24/2011 11:23:39 AM
Somalia is a pure capitalist society. They don't bother with social issues there.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 163
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Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 5/24/2011 12:32:35 PM
Capitalism (which makes this belong in another thread) doesn't HAVE a set-in-stone definition, no matter what it's supporters or detractors might say. Just as the meaning of ANY word in our language changes as we use it in new ways, from the moment someone coined the term "Capitalism," it began to evolve on it's own. Thus, to say that "real" capitalism" requires a LAWFUL society, is nonsense.
The fact that a lawLESS area utilizes capital exchanges as part of how it operates doesn't make it more or less capitalist than a lawFULL area is. In fact, to a large degree, we can only say something is or isn't "capitalism" in a RELATIVE way.

I also disagree that capitalism by definition IGNORES social concerns and issues. Quite the contrary: capitalism as I have always seen it described and expressed, doesn't address WHY someone exchanges capital, only THAT they do. The reason a lot of current advocates of "pure capitalism" want to believe that factors like social concerns, racism, dietary considerations, attitude towards the environment and so forth, DON'T have an application, is simply because they are ANNOYED at people who have those concerns, and who want to include them as part of the capitalist exchange. Actually, for someone to DEMAND that ONLY the transference of monetary elements be allowed to be a part of an exchange of goods and services, is JUST as much of an interference with such exchanges as demanding that such exchanges MUST include them.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 164
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 5/24/2011 12:51:42 PM
First, socialism doesn't try to order all of society.

And secondly, rule of law is a social issue. Capitalism can't function without a civil society. That means there has to be a government that will enforce the law at a start. The invention of invention is actually a pretty recent development and requires a highly sophisticated legal system and fairly large government. So right out of the gate you have to have a pretty big government just to protect physical and intellectual property.

Now if you had a nation that did only that, it would get clobbered economically by neighbours that provided infrastructure - roads, sewers, water, ports, airports, schooling for young people. And we know from human society throughout the ages that humans crave open spaces like parks, so recreation spaces would have to be provided by that society. We also know that a military capability would be necessary. Garbage removal and fire departments are also essential in order to make a sophisticated, competitive nation work.

So now in order to have capitalism, you have a pretty big civil service. But it goes deeper than that. Throughout history the nations that looked after their citizens did better and triumphed. They out competed and either forced their rivals to adopt their policies or conquered them. Rome did it. The Egyptians. The English. This is all in relative terms of course, but Rome as an example provided basic living and food for its citizens. It all comes down to human nature - and if you try to build a society ignoring human nature, you fail. There are all sorts of empirical evidences now of why that works, but I'll give two. The minimax principle is well known and is simply human nature. There was also a study done of primates recently - two groups of chimps were given rewards for tasks; then group A's rewards were increased, while group B's remained constant. Group B stopped doing the tasks. On a primal level, we need fairness or we throw up our hands and don't bother.

So, to have a society that won't get out competed, there has to be fairness as well. And safety. The most dangerous places on earth aren't the poorest, but those where the disparity of wealth is greatest. That's why Jamaica is much scarier than the poorest part of India.

I'm rambling and could continue, but obviously I think Ayn Rand is ludicrously naive and dogmatic.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 166
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 5/24/2011 2:45:26 PM

Capitalism is a social system based on Recognition of Individual and property rights and all property ( including the mind) is privately owned, you countered with that im wrong.

You say all of us that advocate free market systems offers no solutions, to which we have said many times that if we had a truly free market problems like we have now wouldn't exist, its because Free markets are self regulated , why I kept saying most of the fine folks out here dont understand Capitalism is because most of you think Market value is the same as Intrinsic value , ITS NOT THE SAME.

When one understand the true meaning of Capitalism, you will see there is 4 key stones of Capitalism
1) Metaphysically...requirement of human nature and survival
2)Epistemology....Reason and Knowledge
3)Ethically...Individual rights
4))Politically.. freedom

Capitalism is based on a Objective theory of value the other systems Socialism,Fascism, Statism believe in Intrinsic and/or Subjective theories of value.

Free markets represents the social application of the Objective Theory that recognizes individual rights, not concept stealing, concept dropping, coercion, fraud etc.

The free market is a place where one has the ability to trade voluntarily , the laws of supply and demand and the rejection of two brutal doctrines 1) Tribal premise ( the good for the community,state etc) and 2) altruism
Man or woman isnt the property of the State,tribe,government, the mind doesn't belong to anyone but him or her self, he/she is guided by their self interests , free to do what they want to do and create.


The government didn't create Cars, thank God, or we be still in horse and buggy, Government didn't create airplanes, telephone etc, Thank God for the Vanderbilts, the Rockafellers, and others like that , men that had balls to create businesses, look around in your city and what do you see, products and services created by someone.

Just because you dont understand how capitalism really works doesn't make it wrong, and I say thank the Lord that Leyton and his party lost the Canadian Election, there would of been a mass exit of business people out of Canada.

I haven't bothered looking at that other thread, because of this sort of stuff. It's just gobbledy gook. Parroted dogma that makes no sense. It's not surprising that you don't understand that patents and copyright are a recent invention of a complex society that requires a great amount of collective effort to maintain.

But you really don't understand that nations compete? Seriously? Or that we are primates? I tried to phrase my response in very simplistic terms, but you've got a degree in Political Science. This is all stuff you should know.

All the examples you cite as triumphs of free enterprise required government assistance in one form or another. The auto industry required governments to build roads so they could sell their products. Telephone lines were run on public lands. Boeing started up in this city, but moved to Seattle when Roosevelt built hydroelectric dams in the Northwest.

I know this argument is pointless on you. You may have read Bernard Crick in your undergrad days - he says that when man is reborn, he is seldom reborn free. But I couldn't let this nonsense stand unchallenged.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 167
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Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 5/24/2011 3:45:27 PM
I contend that the only difference between capitalism in an ordered society, and a lawless one, comes in the COST OF DOING BUSINESS. Some may want to claim that it somehow ISN'T a capitalist exchange of goods and services, if the businessperson has to provide their own guards and transportation, but I would say that's all semantics.

Saying that "socialism demands that every detail of a persons life be run by the government" is straight up nonsense, promulgated by people who want to scare people away from it. I'm not saying I support socialism, just that portraying it as a horrible state-run prison society is a lie.

In the same way, the claims of anti-capitalists, that somehow it requires everyone to become heartless, greed-driven, vicious, and without conscience is also abject politicized garbage. Capitalism is very flexible. It is whatever we make it. If limits are placed on how we utilize it, then it loses the "free" part of the "free market" label.

Unless one is going to somehow "sanctify" some specific capitalist theorist as somehow being the sole, god-like authority on what is or is not defined to be within the limits of it's features, to say that something isn't acceptable as "part of a deal" is a matter of opinion. Quoting this or that economic theorist isn't applicable to this particular facet of the discussion, because there IS no generally agreed upon AUTHORITY for the definition of this.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 169
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 5/24/2011 6:07:56 PM
I can't even respond to this.

I don't hate capitalism - I depend on capitalism. We all do. I've never worked in the public sector and have almost always had at least part of my pay dependent on my results. But capitalists depend on us too. The financial crisis of 2008 and subprime mess was a result of too little regulation and enforcement. You have to do incredible backflips to view it as a result of too much intervention.

There's so much in the post that makes no sense at all. You ask me to provide proof for statements I never made. Yet ignore specific examples I provided about how government assistance created the wealth you cite in a previous post.

Stop building straw men. Clearly your arguments can't even convince you if you have to try to make me defend fantastical arguments.
 CMonster
Joined: 12/4/2004
Msg: 171
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 6/8/2011 10:23:34 PM
Side note: Part II is underway and has a planned release date of Fall-2012.
 U make it entertaining
Joined: 7/17/2009
Msg: 172
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 11/13/2011 6:31:39 PM
OK ... being a Canadian, I had to wait until yesterday to see it.

I was sort of taken back by the quality of the movie.

No big names, as I knew none of them.
The acting ... could have been a hell of a lot better.
I gather this was done on a very LOW budget.

Sad really, as I expected more.
 CMonster
Joined: 12/4/2004
Msg: 173
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 11/13/2011 9:43:41 PM

OK ... being a Canadian, I had to wait until yesterday to see it.

I was sort of taken back by the quality of the movie.

No big names, as I knew none of them.
The acting ... could have been a hell of a lot better.
I gather this was done on a very LOW budget.

Sad really, as I expected more.

Since it wasn't done in the style of "South Park" or produced by Adam Sandler, I didn't have a problem such a low budget of the movie. Besides, having someone like Angelina in the cast be a distraction from the storyline.

Actually, one of the most amusing things is the mistype on the title sheet of the standard edition DVD's. Seems that someone missed the mistyped movie synopsis which says "AYN RAND’s timeless novel of courage and self-sacrifice comes to life…" I guess the neither the copy editor (nor the actors) had thoroughly read the book.
 U make it entertaining
Joined: 7/17/2009
Msg: 174
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 11/14/2011 5:38:38 AM
I have to admit that they did stay on track with the book.

They started in the middle, and left out the beginning.
I thought it would have helped if they had some flashbacks
Reference to to past.
That would have explained more on what happened between Dagny, Francisco and the copper mines.


"AYN RAND’s timeless novel of courage and self-sacrifice comes to life…"


That is too funny!

I never seen the cover of the DVD
As someone just passed me the disc.

I did a search on this ...



A statement from the production company responsible for “Atlas Shrugged” explains:

The 1957 novel, Atlas Shrugged, is known in philosophical and political circles for presenting a cogent argument advocating a society driven by rational self-interest. On the back of the film’s retail DVD and Blu-ray however, the movie’s synopsis contradictorily states “AYN RAND’s timeless novel of courage and self-sacrifice comes to life … ”

“It’s embarrassing for sure and of course, regardless of how or why it happened, we’re all feeling responsible right now,” says Scott DeSapio, Atlas Productions’ COO and communications director. “You can imagine how mortified we all were when we saw the DVD but, it was simply too late—the product was already on shelves all over the country. It was certainly no surprise when the incredulous emails ensued. The irony is inescapable.”

Atlas Productions has pledged to replace the title cards of up to 100,000 DVDs and Blu-ray discs.
 CMonster
Joined: 12/4/2004
Msg: 175
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 11/14/2011 9:15:20 AM

They started in the middle, and left out the beginning.
I thought it would have helped if they had some flashbacks
Reference to to past.
That would have explained more on what happened between Dagny, Francisco and the copper mines.

I would have loved to see a flashback to their childhood, working for the railroad and planning to change the world.
 U make it entertaining
Joined: 7/17/2009
Msg: 176
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 11/14/2011 7:05:51 PM
Maybe we should have produced the movie.
 joecoolmccall
Joined: 6/10/2010
Msg: 177
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History
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 11/24/2011 10:19:14 AM
Well just want to say that I just received a copy of "Atlas Shrugged". Being a graduate student, I really don't have time to begin a 1000 page novel. Being libertarian minded (particularly economically) I'm interested in reading it some day. What should I be looking for as I read?
 U make it entertaining
Joined: 7/17/2009
Msg: 178
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 11/24/2011 7:10:51 PM
Someone gave me a paperback of the book.
Every time it fell off my bedside table the bookmark fell out.
I found it way to difficult to read.

So I went to the library and picked up the audio.
Excellent way to get through the book.

The movie starts half way through.
It misses a lot of the beginning.
And there is no end ... yet.

So I'd say hear the audio first.
Then look at the movie.
And if you decide to read the book ... good luck!
 CMonster
Joined: 12/4/2004
Msg: 179
Atlas Shrugged - The Movie (Part 1)
Posted: 11/24/2011 8:14:19 PM

What should I be looking for as I read?

One of the most interesting things to do while reading it is finding the tangents in your own life experiences and people that you know. If you've worked in a corporate environment for a few years, it should be pretty easy to make the associations. Recognizing the similarities in your personal life will give the book a depth of surrealism that that the movie was only able to scratch the surface on.
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