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Show ALL Forums  > Politics  > If you could do it again: Would you vote for Obama Today?      Home login  
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 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 276
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If you could do it again: Would you vote for Obama Today?Page 12 of 22    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22)


There is a simple road BACK from a severely divided country: STOP with the nonsense, and lead a political movement that actually seeks to solve EVERYONE'S concerns, instead of declaring one sub group or another to be the sacrificial lambs who have to "suck it up."
How would that be achieved? As a free people, many of us seek complete different directions wed like to see our nation go in. So how would we achieve your suggestion?


Your rhetorical question is an example of what I'm talking about.

If you want to take THE COUNTRY in a different direction, you STILL HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE ENTIRE COUNTRY AND IT'S PEOPLE. Too many of the people tugging, infer strongly that anyone who doesn't find positive results from what happens, should be discarded.

Management says that labor costs are limiting growth, even threatening to destroy the business. Labor says that reducing wages and benefits will destroy their ability to pay for housing and food. Each side bravely demanding that the direction they want to take things in is the right one, results in BOTH sides going down the tubes together.

That's my point. As long as the directional "solution" you are proposing consists of saying "I get what I want, and you don't," nothing will be solved.

Rather than insisting that the direction YOU are certain we must head the country in, requires that MY side has to ignore our own needs and concerns, I would suggest you find a direction that INCLUDES solving my sides problems, AS WELL as your own.

And no, it is NOT a real solution to simply tell my side to accept that we've been wrong all along. As with the business, if you send US to the poor house, YOU will be riding in the very same ox-cart.
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 277
If you could do it again: Would you vote for Obama Today?
Posted: 10/29/2011 1:43:41 PM
I'm almost certain that force would have to be used for that instinct not prevent him from literally and physically refusing to move forward..


Is that why you need your guns and ammunition?
 CMonster
Joined: 12/4/2004
Msg: 278
If you could do it again: Would you vote for Obama Today?
Posted: 10/29/2011 2:00:48 PM
So, and again, in utter seriousness, what my question is is this: How are we going to accomplish this?




There is a simple road BACK from a severely divided country: STOP with the nonsense, and lead a political movement that actually seeks to solve EVERYONE'S concerns, instead of declaring one sub group or another to be the sacrificial lambs who have to "suck it up."

There are already groups out there attempting to do this. The problem is that the solution (focusing on the concerns) needs to happen once people agree to what is truly causing the problems instead of enacting knee-jerk solutions. Unfortunately, the process of understanding the true cause is not nearly as exciting (or emotional) as demonizing the other side.


If a bucket of water has a hole in it, you can't fix it by refilling the bucket with water.
 CMonster
Joined: 12/4/2004
Msg: 279
If you could do it again: Would you vote for Obama Today?
Posted: 10/30/2011 7:27:00 AM

^^^Typical response. All thats normally offered is some senseless crap,

So your solution would be????.....
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 280
If you could do it again: Would you vote for Obama Today?
Posted: 10/30/2011 7:44:52 AM

So, and again, in utter seriousness, what my question is is this: How are we going to accomplish this? Commands to render ones rights or preferences could not possibly be directed at us all..that isn't even logically possible, as it would leave us no direction.
So, who is to be the so called "bigger man"? And naturally their will be quite a few "groups" having to ditch their direction, as only one can be taken.. Or better still, who decides which direction is the right one?

Once and if we've established who all will follow, we will now be insisting they go against mans natural instincts, willingly allowing himself to be led astray. ( at least in his mind it is so)
I am no scientist, however, I don't even think that it is biologically possible.. I'm almost certain that force would have to be used for that instinct not prevent him from literally and physically refusing to move forward..in fact, we see this behavior in animals, possessing far less intelligence and capabilities of reasoning, such as a horse...


I would guess that what you are presenting here is the ideology behind your posts . Since you have declared that you are a member of a Christian church and a member of the Republican party, I would venture to say that it isn't very surprising to read what you posted here. Some of us that have been around for a while are able to regognize the facist ideology that permeates your writing. Heck, I thought I was reading Mein Kampf.
 VGLGuySksFun
Joined: 10/12/2011
Msg: 281
If you could do it again: Would you vote for Obama Today?
Posted: 10/30/2011 5:22:55 PM
Hey i have an idea...

how about we outlaw people that extol any of their religious beliefs to the masses from holding any public office whatsoever... mention any religious belief and you're out... period end of story... leave religion to be wholly personal.

Ladies and Gentlemen... this is PRECISELY the reason there is no compromise in our congress.
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 282
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History
If you could do it again: Would you vote for Obama Today?
Posted: 10/31/2011 12:43:18 AM
Ladies and Gentlemen... this is PRECISELY the reason there is no compromise in our congress.


That has nothing to do with it. You have people on the left and the right that are religious that are in congress. Domestic Policies, like taxes, are the reason why both sides can't agree on general issues. Not because of their personal religious beliefs.
 wvwaterfall
Joined: 1/17/2007
Msg: 283
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If you could do it again: Would you vote for Obama Today?
Posted: 10/31/2011 11:33:55 AM

Domestic Policies, like taxes, are the reason why both sides can't agree on general issues. Not because of their personal religious beliefs.


I'll agree with this.

There will always be single issue voters who can't be appeased unless their candidate aligns with their faith/abortion stance/gun position etc...

I don't think that's what we're talking about here.

I'm all for 'common sense' approaches to issues that affect us all, and truly do believe a strategy is possible that will address our economic problems effectively, but I just can't see our divided country coming together to agree on that strategy.

One side thinks the answer is essentially unfettered capitalism, the other thinks lack of economic controls IS the problem. This is most commonly expressed by the "no tax is a good tax" position Republicans have currently dug their heels in on. I hear so often from that side that the only way to increase employment is to make sure people who already have lots of money get to have more of it, and then somehow they'll start hiring more people. Yet the disparity gap between the richest and poorest is at historic highs at the same time the economy is very much hurting, so I'm not seeing nor have I ever seen evidence that the whole supply/slide concept actually works.

Never the less, a large number of politicians and those who vote for them are firmly entrenched in the concept that less taxes on the rich is the answer, and so long as that's ' THEIR single issue I find prospects for a united future to be dim.
 unYOUsual
Joined: 8/11/2011
Msg: 284
If you could do it again: Would you vote for Obama Today?
Posted: 11/1/2011 9:20:06 AM

Never the less, a large number of politicians and those who vote for them are firmly entrenched in the concept that less taxes on the rich is the answer, and so long as that's ' THEIR single issue I find prospects for a united future to be dim.
Not really sure where you get your info, but it seems that most Republicans are for no "more taxing" of the Rich not less Taxing of the "Rich"..It seems that those on the Left think that if they vilify the "rich" enough people will ignore Reality..
As long as The Liberals in charge choose to vilify everyone else and not accept responsibility for their policies and actions I find the prospects for a united future dim.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 285
If you could do it again: Would you vote for Obama Today?
Posted: 11/1/2011 9:39:44 AM
No one is really sure where you get your info, but it seems that most Republicans are for less taxes on the rich, not avoiding "more taxing" of the rich. Reagan cut top marginal rates, Bush II cut taxes across the board, and Obama renewed Bush's tax cuts at the behest of Congressional Republicans, and they remain far from satisfied with that. Gingrich is always calling for further tax cuts, while Cain often gets recognition for having a plan, his 9-9-9 plan which would further lessen the tax burden on the rich.
 VGLGuySksFun
Joined: 10/12/2011
Msg: 286
If you could do it again: Would you vote for Obama Today?
Posted: 11/1/2011 12:04:22 PM
"That has nothing to do with it. You have people on the left and the right that are religious that are in congress. Domestic Policies, like taxes, are the reason why both sides can't agree on general issues. Not because of their personal religious beliefs. "

BALONEY

The religious right can NEVER admit they've done anything wrong and therefore they cannot compromise... it would be akin to the church declaring it was wrong and that will never happen.

Show me ONE example... any example... where the GOP takes responsibility for anything that has gone wrong or for an admitted mistake for the last 40+ years... since Nixon. In the meantime, we've had a republican president for 28 of 43 years and over the last 30 years, they've increased the national debt by $ 9 trillion with the only surplus during that period under the democrat president... bringing us to the brink in 2008. And it's always someone else to blame but themselves... greed on wall street... they forget they sponsored the bills to deregulate the banks back to the 1920s... fannie mae and freddie mac. Iraq and Saddam Hussein... first it was WMDs and then it was "well he was a bad guy"... while the Iraq war violated our own constitution, the U.N. charter, and cost nearly $ 1.5 trillion and over 4000 young U.S. soldiers.
 VGLGuySksFun
Joined: 10/12/2011
Msg: 287
If you could do it again: Would you vote for Obama Today?
Posted: 11/1/2011 12:28:27 PM
"It seems that those on the Left think that if they vilify the "rich" enough people will ignore Reality"

Show me ONE example over the last 40 years where lower personal taxes on the rich resulted in increased employment.
I can answer it for you... but you should look it up yourself... according to the U.S. Department of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics... lowering the maximum personal tax rates have NEVER resulted in increased employment... in fact, the opposite is true... when Reagan lowered the maximum personal income taxes, unemployment went UP... same under Bush I and again under Bush II... when Clinton raised the max, unemployment went DOWN.
WHY? Because when max tax rates go down, the rich are provided the opportunity to take money out of the business for their personal gain and not invest in the corporation. Over the last 30 years, we've had the greatest transference of personal wealth from the poor to the rich in the history of this nation.

I will give you a perfect example... TODAY...

The fed reports the U.S. economy is growing at 2.5%... maybe we'd like it a bit better but not a whole lot more because too fast isn't good either so 2.5% is good, solid growth.
Yesterday, Standard and Poor’s reported corporate profits have never grown by this much for this long…

Q3 2011 – up 16.1%
Q2 2011 – up 18.9%
Q1 2011 – up 16.4%
Q4 2010 – up 27.8%
Q3 2010 – up 36.6%
Q2 2010 – up 51.3%
Q1 2010 – up 91.7%

So the questions are:

If the U.S. economy is growing and corporate profits are on a run of long time growth… why do you suppose they’re not hiring people?

Where are all the extra profits going since the maximum personal tax rate is so low and corporate tax rates (25%) are so high?
 VGLGuySksFun
Joined: 10/12/2011
Msg: 288
If you could do it again: Would you vote for Obama Today?
Posted: 11/1/2011 12:42:59 PM
"This is a Christian nation."

BALONEY...

Show me ONE example in the Declaration of Independence or the U.S. Constitution where the founding fathers imply that the U.S. is or should be a Christian nation. In fact, the founding fathers went out of their way to ENSURE no religion was given status over another and should not be a part of the government.

Try re-reading the first amendment...

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...."

That means if "GOD" is an establishment of one or more religions... and since GOD is part of Christianity, Judaism and Islam but not part of Buddhism, Hinduism, etc., therefore GOD is an establishment of one or more religions.. and therefore neither GOD nor any part of Christianity, Judaism, Islam etc. can be part of any law... period.
 VGLGuySksFun
Joined: 10/12/2011
Msg: 289
If you could do it again: Would you vote for Obama Today?
Posted: 11/1/2011 12:54:14 PM
"That has nothing to do with it. You have people on the left and the right that are religious that are in congress. Domestic Policies, like taxes, are the reason why both sides can't agree on general issues. Not because of their personal religious beliefs. "

BALONEY

The religious right can NEVER admit they've done anything wrong and therefore they cannot compromise... it would be akin to the church declaring it was wrong and that will never happen.

Show me ONE example... any example... where the GOP takes responsibility for anything that has gone wrong or for an admitted mistake for the last 40+ years... since Nixon. In the meantime, we've had a republican president for 28 of 43 years and over the last 30 years, they've increased the national debt by $ 9 trillion with the only surplus during that period under the democrat president... bringing us to the brink in 2008. And it's always someone else to blame but themselves... greed on wall street... they forget they sponsored the bills to deregulate the banks back to the 1920s... fannie mae and freddie mac. Iraq and Saddam Hussein... first it was WMDs and then it was "well he was a bad guy"... while the Iraq war violated our own constitution, the U.N. charter, and cost nearly $ 1.5 trillion and over 4000 young U.S. soldiers.

Has the GOP ever admitted to a mistake... NO... because they can't. If they admit they made a mistake on an issue then, they might be wrong on other issues... and for that, they will NEVER admit they made a mistake. This is strategy of the church... the church is never wrong... and if the church is ever proved wrong, the church will wait until no one alive remembers their original position and what they did to people even though they were wrong.
 CMonster
Joined: 12/4/2004
Msg: 290
If you could do it again: Would you vote for Obama Today?
Posted: 11/1/2011 2:56:41 PM

Show me ONE example... any example... where the GOP takes responsibility for anything that has gone wrong or for an admitted mistake for the last 40+ years..

Here's the video of Bush eating crow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_A77N5WKWM
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 291
If you could do it again: Would you vote for Obama Today?
Posted: 11/1/2011 3:17:42 PM

Here's the video of Bush eating crow.


Gee, that's not what I saw...what I saw was Bush saying no one in his administration ever suggested Iraq had any part of 9/11...that's a far cry from eating crow...that's saying he was right, once again.

So, anyone have any other case of the GOP admitting responsibility for any mistake.
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 292
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If you could do it again: Would you vote for Obama Today?
Posted: 11/1/2011 3:34:53 PM

So, anyone have any other case of the GOP admitting responsibility for any mistake


John McCain regretted ever opposing a Martin Luther King Jr's holiday.

That wasn't too hard.
 trinity818
Joined: 9/1/2006
Msg: 293
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If you could do it again: Would you vote for Obama Today?
Posted: 11/1/2011 4:00:21 PM

Show me ONE example... any example... where the GOP takes responsibility for anything that has gone wrong or for an admitted mistake for the last 40+ years


I'm not aware of anyone in EITHER party that takes responsibility for anything that has ever gone wrong. Educate me. When was it that the Democrats admitted as much?
 wvwaterfall
Joined: 1/17/2007
Msg: 294
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If you could do it again: Would you vote for Obama Today?
Posted: 11/1/2011 4:01:33 PM

John McCain regretted ever opposing a Martin Luther King Jr's holiday.


John McCain comes from a different generation of politicians, when civility was not considered weakness and indeed viewed as a virtue.

Remember during the campaign when he cut off a particularly vicious comment from a participant in one of his town hall meetings who was bashing Obama? He said something along the lines of "He's a decent man. I don't agree with his policies, but he's a good man".

Obama noticed this disparity between the civility and willingness to compromise of older members of the Senate in contrast with his generation, and asked one of the old timers why that was. The response was that the old guard had once fought a single enemy together during WWII, and regardless of their political differences had thus formed a bond they could draw upon to retain some degree of respect for each other.

I fear what we'll need here is some sort of similar crisis, and challenged as we are I don't think we've found one yet. The war on terror is too ephemeral. Our economic woes leave us split cleanly on how to fix things. We're going to need some sort of bigger crisis that leaves us no choice but to work together in order to bridge the chasm between our warring factions, I think.

I won't say Republicans never admit they're wrong. I see it happen on both sides now and then. But it's rare. Far too rare. And personal attacks are far too common.

There's a big difference between attacking an idea and attacking the person with the idea, but hardly anyone seems to recognize that any more.

I thought Bush was the worst president in my lifetime, which dates back to Eisenhower, but even though I disagreed with almost every decision he made while in office, I never thought of him as a bad man. Near as I can tell he'd make a great neighbor and an interesting dinner companion. I bashed his policies up one side and down the other on many forums, but never attacked his value as a person.

I try hard to do the same thing here when I weigh in. If only those we elect would do the same.
 CMonster
Joined: 12/4/2004
Msg: 295
If you could do it again: Would you vote for Obama Today?
Posted: 11/1/2011 4:28:34 PM
Obama noticed this disparity between the civility and willingness to compromise of older members of the Senate in contrast with his generation, and asked one of the old timers why that was. The response was that the old guard had once fought a single enemy together during WWII, and regardless of their political differences had thus formed a bond they could draw upon to retain some degree of respect for each other.


There's the proof that uniting for a common goal brings solutions. As long as everyone keeps arguing about the methods instead of the outcomes we're going to keep spinning our wheels. So, has it actually been 70 odd years since the nation has actually been united in a common goal?
 trinity818
Joined: 9/1/2006
Msg: 296
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If you could do it again: Would you vote for Obama Today?
Posted: 11/1/2011 4:33:10 PM

So, has it actually been 70 odd years since the nation has actually been united in a common goal?


I thought right after 9/11, that there was a surge of united patriotism. That lasted up until...oh....right around the invasion of Iraq. That event divided us decisively. I don't think anyone wanted us to go there. But it created a great deal of outright hatred.
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 297
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If you could do it again: Would you vote for Obama Today?
Posted: 11/1/2011 5:01:56 PM
John McCain comes from a different generation of politicians, when civility was not considered weakness and indeed viewed as a virtue.


Whoa really? Explain that to all those politicians during the 50's and 60's that had a very hard time admitting that segregation was wrong or the Vietnam War was somehow justified.
 wvwaterfall
Joined: 1/17/2007
Msg: 298
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If you could do it again: Would you vote for Obama Today?
Posted: 11/1/2011 8:02:47 PM
Explain that to all those politicians during the 50's and 60's that had a very hard time admitting that segregation was wrong or the Vietnam War was somehow justified.


I certainly don't think all was perfect back then. But what few cases I can think of when politicians have admitted they were wrong (other than when they've been caught literally with their pants down) have been those who regret their racism or sexism when both were much more socially acceptable.

As for Viet Nam, I think a case could be made that it was as much as anything a carry over from the "fight a common enemy" attitude of WWII. In hindsight we wasted a lot of lives on the mistaken premise that communism would take over the world if it wasn't stopped then and there, but that was certainly the conventional wisdom at the time.


I thought right after 9/11, that there was a surge of united patriotism. That lasted up until...oh....right around the invasion of Iraq. That event divided us decisively. I don't think anyone wanted us to go there. But it created a great deal of outright hatred.


I really think that was a turning point for the US. We had an opportunity to unite the civilized world behind us fighting the common threat of terrorism, IF we had simply asked all the world to help us track down the individuals responsible.

Instead we concocted an "Axis of Evil" and embarked on exactly the sort of over reaction I'm sure Bin Laden hoped we would, playing right into his hands wasting an extraordinary amount of money and lives while fostering the next generation of terrorists.

Only time will tell, but if we should suffer total collapse here I'm sure historians will note the analogy between towers that fell hours after being struck and a country that fell a decade or two after the towers did.
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 299
If you could do it again: Would you vote for Obama Today?
Posted: 11/2/2011 4:46:59 AM
A common effort like WWII required a common shared responsibility. The tax rates of that era reflected the willingness of all Americans to contribute to that common goal. People and corporations that were receiving profits from all the economic activities related to that war returned the excess profits to the government as taxes.

Contrast that situation with the rampant profiteering related to the Iraq war and the reduction of taxes to one of the lowest rates in the last 60 years. There is no shared sacrifice when the rich people are profitting at the expense of the rest of the country.
The animals of prey know of no civility.
 trinity818
Joined: 9/1/2006
Msg: 300
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History
If you could do it again: Would you vote for Obama Today?
Posted: 11/4/2011 2:59:49 PM
You know, I've always thought that all the "birther" rants were a bit of political nonsense. Especially after the short form birth certificate was produced. So perhaps someone can explain to me what our President meant by his statement in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Se5zvGF6u9g&feature=related
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