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Show ALL Forums  > Dating Experiences  > Literacy: Is it important to you?      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 pureblisscatch4u
Joined: 3/18/2011
Msg: 104
Literacy: Is it important to you?Page 5 of 9    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)
I should've been more clear, that in general, some people get mad when some of us ask for someone articulate. I've gotten hate mail from guys when I had in my profile that I wanted full words written in emails and text speak was a huge turn-off. I mean really, why do some get so angry about having to write "you" instead of "u"? Texting has ruined a whole generation.
And yeah, I became grilled cheese down here when I moved for school. But, not being frozen 8 months a year has it's advantages.
 Casper66
Joined: 3/2/2007
Msg: 105
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Literacy: Is it important to you?
Posted: 4/27/2011 11:44:41 PM
Got this message gem the other day:
hru
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 106
Literacy: Is it important to you?
Posted: 4/28/2011 12:45:52 AM
Let’s put it this way - given an all or nothing choice, I’d take ANY one of the following characteristics in a partner BEFORE “literacy”.

How would you figure out if a person had any of those qualities if she wasn't literate enough to convey them through what she wrote in her profile? Take wit, for example. The most obvious clue that she's witty is a witty profile. Most of the qualities you list could be conveyed in a profile (other than the canonical unconvincing ``I want'' and ``I am'' list). Online, writing is how people communicate, so literacy is important if you want to communicate effectively. It doesn't matter what qualities you have if you can't get anyone to believe you have them.


I've gotten hate mail from guys when I had in my profile that I wanted full words written in emails and text speak was a huge turn-off. I mean really, why do some get so angry about having to write "you" instead of "u"?


Idk (Lol). Maybe they’re miffed that you’re imposing insignificant (their POV) conditions on them without getting to know them first.

It's probably more in how it was stated. I said the same thing in my profile, but in a much different way. I didn't demand that people write to me in a certain way. I piqued the interest of people who appreciated that I wrote that way. I didn't get any hate mail because of it, but I did get a lot of mail from people who were literate (including English teachers).
 theforumfiend
Joined: 10/21/2007
Msg: 107
Literacy: Is it important to you?
Posted: 4/28/2011 2:58:02 PM
Especially for you OP:

http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts11770363.aspx

http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts11008313.aspx

http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts12327266.aspx

There are just 3 of several examples for ya.

There are a few people on here that I truly respect, but have to disagree with. Intelligence is very important. Spelling and grammar are really nice too, but not a requirement.

I have friends that couldn't spell if their lives depended on it. One is a brilliant artist. She's a thrifty shopper. She has a home that looks like something from Better Homes and Gardens. She never ceases to amaze me with things she has made to improve her home or give as gifts. Had I judged her by her spelling we'd have never gotten beyond her first email. To this day I am glad I didn't. She has enriched my life in many ways.

My heart goes out to the Grammar Nazi and hope you are not judged as harshly as you judge.
 happybunny8
Joined: 4/16/2010
Msg: 108
Literacy: Is it important to you?
Posted: 4/28/2011 2:59:58 PM
I wish I could copy and paste some people's profiles on here to use as an example in showing why a person with a witty, better written (not perfect necessarily) profile (let's say they both have no picture) profile would get more replies.

But whatever.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 109
Literacy: Is it important to you?
Posted: 4/28/2011 4:53:14 PM
I disagree, most cannot be conveyed through a profile.

Perhaps your writing skills are not as good as you think.

Although a person could advertise themselves as possessing qualities such as honesty, integrity and compassion, that’s certainly not the yardstick I would use to measure those qualities.

Apparently, the only way you think a person could advertise those things would be by saying, ``I'm honest, compassionate and I have integrity,'' in which case I'd agree with you.

Well assuming she was truly illiterate, she would probably not be on an online dating site.

My standard for literacy is a bit higher than that.

Witty profiles are a good clue. Witty conversations are better.

That would be the obvious next step, but you have to get as far as a conversation, first. How many online dates have you gotten?

I guess that’s the issue isn’t it? Do you look at the cover or do you read the book?

I don't read the book if the synopsis on the cover doesn't interest me.

Do you want someone to convince you they are loyal, fit and friendly, or do you want to make that determination yourself?

That is a non-sequitur.
 Laha Math
Joined: 7/15/2010
Msg: 110
Literacy: Is it important to you?
Posted: 4/28/2011 5:03:14 PM
"I know men that use the English language perfectly... but they are TOTAL f&Cken ***holes."

I'd just like to reassure ChillinChill and others of her opinion that we shall remain unacquainted.

BTW its "men *who* use the English language"

I'm constantly amazed by an American attitude, dating back to colonial days, of "I'm ignorant and proud of it, and I'm as good as anybody. So there." I'm ashamed that I'm ignorant of so many things, and that my command of English is sometimes inadequate to my needs.
 valenciacityx
Joined: 3/10/2009
Msg: 111
Literacy: Is it important to you?
Posted: 4/28/2011 5:57:52 PM
ramping up the Russian and learning Ukrainian.... and they keep referring back to how hard English grammar is..... and then I looked at how flagrantly I have been misusing my native tongue !
24 cases of verbal aspects ?!?! what the hell.
I will take the Russian 12 every time.
 honeycognac
Joined: 11/22/2010
Msg: 112
Literacy: Is it important to you?
Posted: 4/28/2011 10:17:08 PM
^^^ My first language was Ukrainian. I teach ESL, and my Slavic students often can explain English grammar rules better than native English speakers - especially the young ones. Grammar is not explicitly taught in school any more - at least not in North America.
 Helen0426
Joined: 6/2/2009
Msg: 113
Literacy: Is it important to you?
Posted: 4/30/2011 12:42:36 AM
For me, what matters is not so much correctness, but an interest in language, an endlessly fascinating and often funny subject to me.

I don't think a man, or a woman for that matter, is any less of a good person if they don't write well. Of course not. I'm seeing a lot of very defensive posts here that seem to assume that attitude among those of us to whom relative literacy matters.

It's a matter of compatibility, is all. I've found (rather to my surprise) that I really do need to be able to share that latest New Yorker joke, or funny typo in a billboard, or ridiculous unintended double-entendre in a newspaper headline, with someone with whom I intend to have breakfast (or lunch, anyway, given the hours I keep) for the rest of my life.

It doesn't mean everyone who can't do that with me, or just isn't interested in it, isn't a great person... it just means we wouldn't be a good match romantically.

That's all. Really. That's it.

Editing to add:

My first language was Ukrainian. I teach ESL, and my Slavic students often can explain English grammar rules better than native English speakers - especially the young ones. Grammar is not explicitly taught in school any more - at least not in North America.

I regret to say that I have no difficulty believing this. When I took college Spanish, we had some cross-classes with native Spanish speakers learning English, which was a fantastic tool for all of us. Their English grammar was far better than ours.

They said we were better in Spanish grammar than they were, too, though, so I guess at least our schools aren't bad at teaching second languages!

Now if only we could work on the primary one...
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 114
Literacy: Is it important to you?
Posted: 4/30/2011 5:39:01 AM

I beg to differ. It is exactly my point.

Only if your point was to offer an either/or choice to two things which aren't mutually exclusive. I call that a non-sequitur. It makes no sense to ask such a question.
 ohenryx
Joined: 3/12/2010
Msg: 115
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Literacy: Is it important to you?
Posted: 4/30/2011 10:05:14 AM
Quoting Laha Math



I'm constantly amazed by an American attitude, dating back to colonial days, of "I'm ignorant and proud of it, and I'm as good as anybody. So there." I'm ashamed that I'm ignorant of so many things, and that my command of English is sometimes inadequate to my needs.


Very well said. I have spent my life learning, and there are so many, many things that I still have not learned. Interesting things, things that I always intended to learn, but somehow have just never found the time.


Quoting Helena0426


It's a matter of compatibility, is all. I've found (rather to my surprise) that I really do need to be able to share that latest New Yorker joke, or funny typo in a billboard, or ridiculous unintended double-entendre in a newspaper headline, with someone with whom I intend to have breakfast (or lunch, anyway, given the hours I keep) for the rest of my life.

It doesn't mean everyone who can't do that with me, or just isn't interested in it, isn't a great person... it just means we wouldn't be a good match romantically.

Another very good post. I’m a man, I will date women who attract me sexually, regardless of their command of the English language. But for an actual long term relationship, much more is required.
 Molly Maude
Joined: 9/11/2008
Msg: 116
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Literacy: Is it important to you?
Posted: 4/30/2011 12:23:57 PM
this has been an interesting thread ...

think ohenryx summed it all up nicely ...

while I was reading this, I was intermittently also getting PoF "e-mail" messages from a man who lived nearby, seemed relatively inarticulate, complaining that all he meets in here are liars and game-players ...

thinking it could just be that he lacks typing skills, I responded ... about the 4th e-mail, he finally gave me his # and, against my better judgement but not wanting to look like a snob, I called his # ... and got his voice mail!

so, even if it IS that he's incapable of communicating by e-mail due to his limited typing skills ... he's ALSO incapable of answering his phone!

too funny ... a game player! who complains about game-players! too funny ... pathetic but funny ...

give me an articulate man who communicates on a level I understand and who doesn't complain about my vocabulary ...

 woobytoodsday
Joined: 12/13/2006
Msg: 117
Literacy: Is it important to you?
Posted: 5/1/2011 10:15:11 AM
Confession time: I have a Master's degree in English, have taught English at University, have worked as an editor and writer for most of my life. I *love* words and language, and what can be done with them. AND I am *not* a natural speller. Steve Jobs saved my bacon by producing a typewriter that could spell (though I spent an enormous amount of time teaching IT to spell, 'cause my vocabulary was a good deal larger. Same with the spell checker on firefox).

My line seems not to be literacy per se, but rather intelligence -- had a terrific two plus year relationship with the most profoundly dyslexic human being I've ever encountered. HE thought he was stupid. He wasn't, he was enormously bright, but had been schooled in a one room schoolhouse (yes, WV still has them), and his teacher had spent his whole school career telling him he needed to try harder. Since he knew he was trying as hard as he could, he thought he was just dumb. Dropped out of school at six grade because he was tired of being tortured. I always felt the peak of what I was able to do for him was get him to read his first whole, entire, book (about the Hatfields and McCoys, to whom he was related). He'd never heard of dyslexia, was interested and relieved to find out what *it* was. . . . He *loved* this joke: The dyslexic insomniac agnostic stays up all night wondering if there is a Dog.

Humans come in all flavors, lol! I tend to favor word-oriented types, but, hey, ya never know what's lurking just below the surface. . . .

 theforumfiend
Joined: 10/21/2007
Msg: 118
Literacy: Is it important to you?
Posted: 5/1/2011 11:22:38 AM
Thank you wooby, that was touching and explains the difference between literacy and intelligence much better than I could.
 albinosquirlz
Joined: 3/28/2010
Msg: 119
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Literacy: Is it important to you?
Posted: 5/2/2011 6:35:46 AM

Steve Jobs saved my bacon by producing a typewriter that could spell


And I'll bet you never once credited him for any of your work. he he

Computers make for great editing devices...just not good creative writing devices.

Larry McMurtry accepting his award for best screenplay (Brokeback Mountain) at the Golden Globes.....


"Most heartfelt, I thank my typewriter. My typewriter is a Hermes 3000, surely one of the noblest instruments of European genius," McMurtry said. "It has kept me for 30 years out of the dry embrace of the computer."





Thank you wooby, that was touching and explains the difference between literacy and intelligence much better than I could.


But even a psychopath can be both literate and intelligent, proving that neither is the magic ingredient for attraction. My experience has taught me that what people consciously imagine to be attributes they seek in a mate, generally have little to do with who they are attracted to or are most happiest with.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 120
Literacy: Is it important to you?
Posted: 5/2/2011 7:58:25 AM
You espouse the value of advertising. I espouse the values open-mindedness and self-reliance (in the Emersonian meaning).

As long as you keep making things up and deciding what I espouse to fit your argument, you will continue to miss the point, which so far, you have not addressed. You've only limited the possibilities to fit your limitations.
 sweetest
Joined: 10/8/2007
Msg: 121
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Literacy: Is it important to you?
Posted: 5/2/2011 12:46:59 PM

Let’s put it this way - given an all or nothing choice, I’d take ANY one of the following characteristics in a partner BEFORE “literacy”.

^^^Consigliori, from what you’ve written are you suggesting that you could be happy with someone illiterate who possessed any/all from your aforementioned list and consider that person a match??

I’d suggest that being with someone more or less functionally illiterate would be impossibly limiting irrespective of looks for most, including myself.

It’s not that I don't get that looks aren’t important…it’s that intelligence matters ---intelligence and literacy augments the day-to-day within a relationship on so many levels it's impossible to count. In many cases it ignites attraction. And while the physical is always important, the attraction does not always get a toe-hold from the physical looks of a person alone, it can and often does start with words…and for wordsmiths like me who actually groove on it…it’s a must.

This place is about finding a match. Literacy is an important definer of sorts for some of us. It opens windows so that people can see where commonalities exist with others---and it works!

It's a matter of compatibility, is all. I've found (rather to my surprise) that I really do need to be able to share that latest New Yorker joke, or funny typo in a billboard, or ridiculous unintended double-entendre in a newspaper headline, with someone with whom I intend to have breakfast (or lunch, anyway, given the hours I keep) for the rest of my life.

It doesn't mean everyone who can't do that with me, or just isn't interested in it, isn't a great person... it just means we wouldn't be a good match romantically.

That's all. Really. That's it.

^^^That really is it Helen---excellent sum up.
When I say that I’m looking for someone attractive that captivates along an emotional, intellectual and physical plane---most of that ‘jumbles’ and morphs the physical and becomes much more of a match between how that person thinks and how he is able to express that with me. 'Conversation' by writing for me always happens before phone calls, which happens before meeting. I need a level of true engagement before I meet because the chemistry stuff is illusive enough; I don’t want to waste people’s time. I need to understand what possibilities exist before committing someone’s time to a meeting.

Everyone is entitled to like what they like. I like a particular type of complexity in a bf that I’ve never once seen demonstrated in someone illiterate, so based on that…my preference or 'tacit deal breaker’ is someone who is illiterate.

The written profile (even without a photo) is an initial filter or invitation to explore; nothing else is as effective as a precursor of what could be when it comes to dating possibilities. Abelian has it absolutely right as do several others. jmo.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 122
Literacy: Is it important to you?
Posted: 5/2/2011 12:57:13 PM

Personalizing the argument, making ad hominem attacks, lacking the wherewithal to state your own beliefs or take a meritorious position, and insisting that there is only one very limited way to reach a conclusion without describing it, is simply not persuasive.

What's your point?
 sweetest
Joined: 10/8/2007
Msg: 123
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Literacy: Is it important to you?
Posted: 5/2/2011 3:30:36 PM

Consigliori, you've made some good points throughout...thanks for clarifying.

Intelligence - yes, literacy - no. I have many day to day IRL relationships with people I respect, care for and love: wife, children, parents, siblings, secretaries, partners and people in my community. We talk, we act, we love, sometimes we argue. Those relationships are rarely advanced by the written word. They are more often facilitated by oration and deeds.

^^^Here's where I see things differently with respect to what you've written.

I would suggest that oration is facilitated/augmented/advanced by literacy; I simply cannot understand otherwise.

Literacy is more than reading and writing....by not having any other gauge it functions as a baseline of some sort and can be understood from that alone. People checking out my profile would have some understanding of how I'd be in person....in a conversation from the fact that I'm literate.

Having surveyed the POF 'landscape' for years now....'a meaningful conversation' would be absolutely be a s-t-r-e-t-c-h for some on here....

Like you, I would no more be compatible living a life with someone who was literate and void of compassion; but there is also truth in my declaration that I could never envision a life with someone illiterate. We all require more than singular traits. It's always going to be about the mix: How the emotional, intellectual and physical come together.

but I’d like to see folks seek the superlative in each other (a la Jean Merrill) and focus less on the superficial.

^^^I like this, but am not in agreement with your suggestion that literacy is somehow cloistered among the many misguided superficial considerations that people get distracted by....in my opinion it's not.

... although the vetting process consumes your lives now, if you are successful in finding an LTR, you will almost never write to each other.

My last relationship was with a brilliant man I met here. His way of writing engaged me thoroughly and immediately. Reading his emails, stories, quips and general 'sum-ups' of life happening around him, is one of the things I miss the most. He had a unique take on the world. And in contrast to what you've written above about writing not being as important in many day-to-day relationships...we wrote all the time, even if we had just seen each other; it was rare for us not to have that kind of exchange.

Since we were both writers and not grammar nazis...nothing hinged on 'particular correctness' where I think this thread might be a bit 'stuck'. It was more about having another way of knowing and opening up to each other...in this way it was hardly superficial. I definitely felt I understood his mind and soul better because of it. Your point however, that other characteristics are perhaps more 'vital' is not lost on me...I get it.

Finally, I don't know about you, but because of email I find that I'm constantly writing... namely, to the very people you suggest that you don't write to...child included! Pre-internet...I would agree with you--not so much.

edited

 Red Fish GF
Joined: 12/3/2009
Msg: 124
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Literacy: Is it important to you?
Posted: 5/2/2011 3:43:18 PM

His way of writing engaged me thoroughly and immediately. Reading his emails, stories, quips and general 'sum-ups' of life happening around him, is one of the things I miss the most. He had a unique take on the world. And in contrast to what you've written above about writing not being as important in many day-to-day relationships...we wrote all the time, even if we had just seen each other; it was rare for us not to have that kind of exchange.



Being that we live 2 hours apart and phone calls sometimes catch each other at an inconvenient time, my SO and I still do a lot of emailing. One of the first things that made me want to meet him was his well written emails despite having some errors in grammar and spelling on his profile.
 albinosquirlz
Joined: 3/28/2010
Msg: 125
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Literacy: Is it important to you?
Posted: 5/2/2011 5:50:10 PM

Literacy is more than reading and writing....by not having any other gauge it functions as a baseline of some sort and can be understood from that alone. People checking out my profile would have some understanding of how I'd be in person....in a conversation from the fact that I'm literate.


I would agree, but I think you are overestimating the importance of literacy beyond its basic superficiality as an attractor/detractor.

Being literate, in and of itself, has no bearing on your personality. It's "WHAT" you say with this acceptable level of literacy that is going to reveal your personality and make all the difference...not how "WELL" you said it. Literacy, like a nice face, or a great set of tits, will get your foot in the door...that's it (and I would hazard a guess that more women opt for boob jobs than PHD's to attract men).

In the case of on-line dating, it can be both an advantage and a disadvantage. The visuals will probably play the biggest role, but the written profile will usually be the deciding factor.

The advantage is...you can edit it. You can make yourself sound as good as you possibly can, and you can take as much time and effort as you want to perfect it. You can cultivate whatever image you want for yourself...doesn't matter how accurate it is to the real you. In live, real life circumstances, there is no editing.

The disadvantage is...living up to this on-line profile in real life.

Go ahead and try to be as cerebral as you like...and downplay your evolutionary programming as much as you like (and most people don't know which one is doing the talking). But just remember one thing....

Every single bat-shit crazy person on the planet is on the internet dating sites (and chat forums). And they've worked hard to make their profiles not reflect that. And to make matters worse...some of them have a great set of tits.
 Red Fish GF
Joined: 12/3/2009
Msg: 126
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Literacy: Is it important to you?
Posted: 5/3/2011 1:19:06 PM
Consigliori


By “well written” you mean that his e-mails contained quality content, were relevant, well organized, responsive and had a recognizable purpose although there may have been spelling and grammatical errors, correct? That’s a great example of what I’m talking about - smart guy, caring guy, lots of likeable qualities (my assumption - or why would Red Fish be with him?), but doesn’t put much emphasis on spelling or grammar. Red Fish looks past it because it simply isn’t as important as the other - and good on her.



Yes, his messages were well thought out and not just a couple sentences that could of been copied and pasted. He had a spelling error on his profile but most of his mistakes are typos from writing in a hurry or using a phone, not true errors because he isn't smart enough. He is an engineer. Typos such as the word loose for lose, he does that on occasion. My sister is definitely smart too, she's an accountant but still gets since and sense mixed up which I tease her for. Not that my writing is perfect either, I just have a habit of proof reading most of the time. Thank goodness for spell check.lol All of your assumptions are true.


I graduated college with honors so I consider myself somewhat smart but my SO sometimes uses words I have never heard of. Instead of it bothering me I just use the opportunity to learn a new word.



"Don't use big words in front of me!" After awhile, that tends to grate on my last nerve especially if he's close to my age and has had the same opportunities on obtaining an education as I have.

 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 127
Literacy: Is it important to you?
Posted: 5/3/2011 2:12:53 PM

Hmmm. Alright, I’ll give you that - marginally. I speak publicly for my job. Literacy does augment the end result in my case (I know others in my profession who do not fit that mold), but again there are more important qualities than literacy when it comes to oration: reason, order, confidence, elocution, and for me - a heck of a lot of practice.

I don't know where you're got those weird notions of what is meant by literacy, but being literate necessarily includes reasoning, putting ideas in proper order word, a lot of practice and elocution in the sense that one can deliberately use poor grammar, mixed metaphors, incorrect words and so on as literary devices to give someone a mental image of what you are like in person. Even self confidence will come through in what a person writes. There is no need to tell someone you are self-confident or even mention it to convey that about yourself in what you write. The same goes for many of those things you seem to think are impossible to express through writing. It's impossible to NOT convey those things in what you write, no matter what you acually wrote.

A person can write sentences that describe him/herself as self-confident, witty, honest, fun, and anything else he/she wants someone to believe, but if what that person writes is boring, contains no trace of his/her personality, has a hostile tone to it, whatever, I'm going to reach a different conclusion than the one the author was hoping I'd reach.

Saying that those qualities are ``more important qualities than literacy,'' is like saying the the landing gear, the wings, the cabin and the engines are more important than plane. It makes no sense to equate the plane with the rivets that hold the pieces together while considering the pieces to be something else entirely.

By “well written” you mean that his e-mails contained quality content, were relevant, well organized, responsive and had a recognizable purpose although there may have been spelling and grammatical errors, correct? That’s a great example of what I’m talking about - smart guy, caring guy, lots of likeable qualities

It's more like an example of what you were trying to avoid talking about when you posted those replies I called non-sequiturs. I didn't address those comments precisely because you limited the scope of what you considered literacy to exclude the actual content and create two meaningless choices. So no. That is not what you were talking about.
 Laha Math
Joined: 7/15/2010
Msg: 128
Literacy: Is it important to you?
Posted: 5/3/2011 4:16:18 PM
I'm not an English major but used to spend Sunday mornings in bed with my first live in girlfriend eating chocolate eclairs and creme puffs and doing the cryptic crossword in the Saturday Night magazine together, and my god that was erotic.
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