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 MikeWM
Joined: 2/7/2011
Msg: 14
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Fathers rights in the UKPage 4 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)
I used to deal with situations like this frequently a few years back and the courts from what I can see still arent any more likely to actually enforce any visitation orders

Youre right though, fathers have little to no rights in the true sense of the word other than their "right" to pay for a child

Because access is a civil matter if a woman REALLY wants to stop a father seeing his child for any reason she can without having to even provide proof accuse him of practically anything, move anywhere in the country or even abroad with the child, regularly flought court defined visitation and never really have to bother about any form of penalty as courts for the most part are reluctant to fine or jail the mother of a child regardless of what they do because of the bad PR

We are also one of the few developed countries that dont class PAS (parental alienation syndrome) as being admissable in proceedings which leaves the door open for a resident parent to poisen a child against their non resident parent with there being no real avenue towards impeding that process

The UK tends to focus more on the rights and wishes of the mother in access disputes than either the father or even the child

Whereas more evolved societies like germany and sweden focus on the childs needs mroe than either parents own personal wishes or whims

So you have legislation where if one parent wants to move a long distance either from or with their child its THEM who has to fund all of the additional costs of travel incurred by the other parent. They also need the other parents permission and the courts OK to move more than a set distance too so that one person (usually the resident parent) can use cost or distance to try and stop the other parent from seeing their child

Some countries if the resident parent deliberately avoids three visitation arrangements the can be jailed and the child is placed with the other parent. In some cases that will become permanent and its the former resident parent who then gets visitation

A few countries also have an option where the house becomes the home of the child, and the parents take turns living there for equal amounts of time with the child and either have a second home the one not living with the child uses or each gets their own temporary accomodations for those periods

The UK is one of the most backwards countries in the industrialised world where fathers rights are concerned

And many of the "absent fathers" we hear so much about arent actually absent father at all.

Think about it for a moment. How many women would be likely to tell even their best friend that they deliberately do everything they can to stop their ex seeing his child so it wont deter new men from dating them (a very common reason)???

Course they wont, or not many at least. They just tell everyone "he cant be bothered"

Same when they move hundreds of miles away knowing he cant afford the travel and/or lodging expenses to see them.

They just tell everyone, the child included that the dad "cant be bothered" rather than "I moved sooooooo far away he cant afford to come to see them anymore"


And people wonder why so many men have such a negative or wary outlook on the idea of becoming a father in the UK? lol

Basically in terms of actual enforceable "rights" a bloke a woman has been sleeping with for a couple of days has far more "right" to see a child than its father. Because their "right" is one automatically in place by the mothers decision to admit them to their home

The father has little to no enforceable "right" to see that child even if a court has told them they should see the child. As theyre reluctant to try and penalise a woman for not allowing that access
 MikeWM
Joined: 2/7/2011
Msg: 15
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Fathers rights in the UK
Posted: 10/21/2011 10:43:26 AM
If you do manage to re establish contact then read up on something called PAS (parental alienation syudrome) Its a very common thing resident parents do to their children that over time will result in the child appearing to not want to see the non resident parent

They dont actually even realise theyre doing it in many cases, but it can simply stem from them just being a bit selfish and bemoaning the "effort" required to facilitate access. But in more obvious cases it occurs by them either displaying their own animosoty or upset related to the other parent, and the non resident one showing angst when access arrangements are broken or messed about with

So eventually the child feels "they" are making their resident parent unhappy or both parents unhappy, and that its purely their fault. So the solution they tend to arrive at is to claim they dont want to see the non resident parent thinking both parents will be "happier" which then tends to be reinforced by them seeing that the resident parent DOES become happier when they get their own way over access arrangments

Your only other avenue is to try for custody yourself, but realistically unless your ex is a VERY bad mother, and I really cant stress the "very" part enough you will have practically no chance at all of getting it. Infact even if she moved in a violent criminal boyfriend or started taking drugs you'd still struggle to get a fair deal

The courts are unlikely to take any action against the mother, and most women already know this. So she can quite easily make access impossible for you until your child reaches 18 with practically no chance whatsoever of anything ever being done to her unlike most other european countries

If she gets tired of being hauled back to court she can simply move so far away you cant afford to visit your child, or make backdated accusations that she suspects you molested them which will stop you having any access for several years by itself and also wont even result in a criminal conviction if its found out to be ficticious as access is dealt with in civil court rather than judicial court, so no allegations made require proof on the part of the mother and the court is bound by directives to treat any and all accusations as though true and acurate to avoid the risk of harm to the child and apply all possible precautionary care

I have always thought that where access is denied via malice the father should be able to restrict child support, as that would get you into the court system VERY quickly unlike with an access complaint.

And if child support was made to be paid after access had been granted it would make far fewer mothers choose to be obstructive when they realise their revenue stream would be affected as a result. Which is a potential form of punishment our courts could consider, but almost definitely never would
 MikeWM
Joined: 2/7/2011
Msg: 16
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Fathers rights in the UK
Posted: 10/23/2011 8:00:15 AM
Actually, and this is one of the main things about parenting that has always annoyed me

Even if a woman has claimed a child was yours and you had then housed, fed and supported both of them for 18 years no crime has actually been committed

"paternity fraud" is just a term, and isnt actually a legal term, nor a crime of any type.


As for why she would do this, the simple answer is because she can

What many women actually mean by "our child needs a father" is simply that they accept they might benefit from a male role model, but who that male role model should be will be purely their decision and doesnt necessarily need to be the "actual" father


Everything she has threatened you with is not only possible, but the courts will invariably take her concerns as the basis for their rulings and will avoid at all cost doing anything she might not view favourably.

If she really does stick to her guns and despite moving and just blocking access doesnt get you to back off then chances are the next phase will involve (assuming it hasnt already started) telling everyone including the child that rather than her blocking access "daddy cant be bothered to see his child" as well as quite possibly accusations of suspecting child abuse as that tends to buy a woman as much as a couple of years of getting away with not allowing any form of visitation while youre investigated

But chances are if you cant manage to get this to turn around you have just been made into another one of those "absent fathers" who cant be bothered to see their kids. Which will be what she will be telling everyone rather than what is actually going on as no woman would be likely to tell anyone the truth in situations like this


@msg 51

I have to confess I actually talked my kids grandparents into doing exactly that as they couldnt be "bothered" with seeing them in their late teens, and trying to either force it or motivate them into visiting them didnt work as well as I expected as they found it kind of boring lol

So I suggested they ONLY gave them their pocket money when they visited, and even then not till they had been there an hour or so to avoid the "flying visit" purely to collect their money type scenario

 MikeWM
Joined: 2/7/2011
Msg: 17
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Fathers rights in the UK
Posted: 10/23/2011 8:24:29 AM
Thats a civil action, its not a "crime" theyre totally different things entirely

You can sue your nieghbour for having flowers of a colour you dont like if you wanted to, but your chances of actually winning, or even getting the case heard is slim

The fact he was "allowed" to try and pursue her for damages in no way means he stood any chance of winning. And in similar cases the woman has basically just claimed she thought he was the father even when theres been quite compelling evidence she did. And then claiming that any judgement against her would be detrimental to the child which tends to be the final nail in the coffin of actually winning a case of that type


Feminists have spent a hell of a lot of time lobbying against any changes in law that would make paternity fraud harder for women to commit including fighting against compulsory paternity tests at birth, defending mothers rights to deny forced paternity tests after birth and various other proposed changes that would make it harder to commit

But it still remains a perfectly legitimate an legal practise. And the chance of winning a civil action is pretty slim to non existant

However, defraud someone out of as little as £1000 by any other means and you could end up facing jail time as that is infact an actual "illegal" activity prosecuteable by judicial rather than civil law

Paternity fraud even if totally hundreds of thousands of pounds or even millions of pounds isnt actually a criminal law despite having the word "fraud" in the label though, thats quite misleading even though it is obviously by any definition "fraud" its just not treated as such in the criminal sense of the word
 MikeWM
Joined: 2/7/2011
Msg: 18
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Fathers rights in the UK
Posted: 10/23/2011 8:29:33 AM
Thats a civil action, its not a "crime" theyre totally different things entirely

You can sue your nieghbour for having flowers of a colour you dont like if you wanted to, but your chances of actually winning, or even getting the case heard is slim

The fact he was "allowed" to try and pursue her for damages in no way means he stood any chance of winning. And in similar cases the woman has basically just claimed she thought he was the father even when theres been quite compelling evidence she did. And then claiming that any judgement against her would be detrimental to the child which tends to be the final nail in the coffin of actually winning a case of that type


Feminists have spent a hell of a lot of time lobbying against any changes in law that would make paternity fraud harder for women to commit including fighting against compulsory paternity tests at birth, defending mothers rights to deny forced paternity tests after birth and various other proposed changes that would make it harder to commit

But it still remains a perfectly legitimate an legal practise. And the chance of winning a civil action is pretty slim to non existant

However, defraud someone out of as little as £1000 by any other means and you could end up facing jail time as that is infact an actual "illegal" activity prosecuteable by judicial rather than civil law

Paternity fraud even if totally hundreds of thousands of pounds or even millions of pounds isnt actually a criminal law despite having the word "fraud" in the label though, thats quite misleading even though it is obviously by any definition "fraud" its just not treated as such in the criminal sense of the word


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternity_fraud

Theres was a study in the uk a few years ago that was sheleved when some northern towns had instances as high as 30% or more where it was clear that the claimed father wasnt infact capable of being the father. So the findings of the study vanished from the .gov site a couple of weeks after being posted and as far as I know never got re posted or even mentioned again
 MikeWM
Joined: 2/7/2011
Msg: 19
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Fathers rights in the UK
Posted: 10/23/2011 8:40:14 AM
Telling lies or what someone wants to hear would be helping how exactly?


That IS the reality of the situation as perpetuated by our current laws and how they handle disputes. So "helping" is giving him the honest facts so he has a better idea of what he is dealing with rather than smoothing it over with some feel good pile of nonsense that would make him feel "good" but would potentially leave him more likely to falling into one of the other possible pitfalls

Saying what someone wants to hear is purely for the benefit of the poster, so they can walk away pattng themseleves on the back thinking what a "nice" person they are

But if what was said isnt even true, and could potentially lead someone into a worse situation if they actually took it on board that isnt by ANY definition being "helpful", selfish would be a more acurate term really Karma
 MikeWM
Joined: 2/7/2011
Msg: 20
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Fathers rights in the UK
Posted: 10/23/2011 8:51:20 AM
Yeah it sucks, but I've had to deal with exactly that with many clients over the years because when that accusation is made in civil court they have to treat it as genuine and act accordingly even with no actual proof or evidence as thats deemed "the best interest of the child"

And even if its found out to be completely untrue they have no ability to penalise the mother or prosecute her for doing so, it can just go against her. But considering theres no real punishment theyre usually prepared to hand out as practically anything can be argued as being "not in the best interest of the child" its a win win scenario for a mother looking to deny access at any costs

That is why so many people veiw the term "fathers parental rights" as being a bit of an oxymoron in the UK

Had you lived in germany then you would have a much better position, and her blocking accesss, moving or even making those threats could quite likely get her jailtime or have the custody of the child transferred to you

The UK however is an entirely different kettle of fish, and scotland is even worse than than england, so a lot of mothers tend to move there if theyre really determined to block access
 MikeWM
Joined: 2/7/2011
Msg: 21
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Fathers rights in the UK
Posted: 10/23/2011 2:15:44 PM
The fact this bloke is a "soon to be convicted" drug dealer might also be relevant

Many forms of drugs have a tendency to cause a frequent user to become paranoid

So ontop of any hormonal insanity in play here, its also likely the boyfriend is also paranoid that as soon as he gets banged up (if thats a likely outcome) she might come waddling back to you however unrealistic that might actually be

So he might also be applying pressure on her to cut you totally out of her life and your childs life, which isnt something thats exactly rare either for men to ask a woman to do, or for a woman to agree to either


Another ironic side topic to this, is that had you started dating a woman who was using or selling drugs your ex would quite easily have been able to use that to limit your visitation rights, force them to be supervised and in some instances might even have been able to get a court to stop them at least temporarily

The reverse situation however means she can not only date or live with a drug user or seller, but could actually become a junky herself and it wouldnt have much direct influence on her still being the childs resident guardian unless the child recieved some direct injury as a result, and even then chances are she would be offered a long list of treatment and support service options first
 Cute_N_Fluffy
Joined: 3/19/2011
Msg: 22
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Fathers rights in the UK
Posted: 11/24/2011 2:57:06 PM
In a nut shell no rights what so ever.

Spent the past 3 years in court for my daughters.

My daughters mum has breeched every court order they have made , the last one was for my daughter to be staying over night , that was ment to start 4 months ago, fat chance even though she asks to stay every time she comes here.

have had to involve the police due to threats from her and her bf. She kicked off in court swearing at the judges and barristers and slammed the door in the ushers face as she was trying to get her out of the room and she wasent even told off. Court said we had to go to mediation, but mediation have refused to deal with her because she keeps thretening violence.

With my younger daughter it took social services 7 months to do a DNA test to prove I was the father , the whole time not getting to see her or vice versa. Also had my dealings with cafcas who took 6 months to assign my case to a case worker, thought things would get better only to find out the case worker didnt start working for them for a further 3 months. Still going through the offical complaints procedure for both organisations and the GMC.

My older daughter doesent understand why her mam is screaming and shouting down the street after us and usually ends up crying asking why mummy is shouting at her and what has she done wrong. When its time to take her home shes petrified repeating over and over again she doesent want to go.

Its surposed to be what is best for the child and what the child wants. Load of rubbish its what the mother wants to happen happens.

I came into the whole situation with an open mind wanting to be a part of my daughters lives and after 3 years of fighting I can see why so many fathers walk away.
 MikeWM
Joined: 2/7/2011
Msg: 23
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Fathers rights in the UK
Posted: 11/25/2011 12:33:04 PM

Replies from that date to this (zero)


Thats both apalling and unsurprising at the same time

At the very least I would have expected "some" vague non comittal comments about what you were trying to do, so vague infact nobody would be able to tell if they were for and against it

But at the same time single parents double the amount of people paying rent, electricity, gas, tv licences, running cars etc etc

So MPs will want to encourage the breakdown of families and marriages rather than take any steps to to discourage it as the single parents of today are raising the single parents and absent parents of the next generation

So you cant expect them to sabotage such a productive revenue generating machine machine really
 TheRe-SownRose
Joined: 2/3/2013
Msg: 26
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Fathers rights in the UK
Posted: 8/15/2013 9:57:15 AM

Why did I choose to share my story with you? I don't know really...I just want to say to anyone else who may be dealing with these issues to stay strong, keep talking to people and don't fall into the dark abyss that I did. I've lost everything which is quite liberating in regards to material goods but I've a big challenge ahead of me now, even bigger than before.


Had a tear in my eye reading your post. We've only heard your side of the story of course but I think it is a terrible mistake to deny a child access to a parent. I actively take my daughter to see her father (he can't be bothered to come here) because I want her to know that I did everything I could for him to be in her life. I'd be devastated if when she grows up we fall out because she thought I was stopping her knowing her father..

Sadness :(
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 28
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Fathers rights in the UK
Posted: 8/17/2013 5:53:07 AM
Here organic you said
''Well the hell are men still stupid enough to have children with Western women? When will they learn their lesson? Having a child with a Western woman is taking a huge gamble. Yes, men are waking up, but far too slowly''

So are you saying then that buying a bride from thailand, cambodia etc is a better option?
Either there or some poverty stricken lassie from south america. Dazzle them with your
cash big man and keep them in line eh?
So do you go outside europe to find the lassie who has absolutely plums eh sorry i mean
who really really loves you and will be your doormat and have bave bairns who will live
in awe of their dad?

Dad dad where did you meet mum?
Oh she was on page 13 of we will do anything to escape poverty magazine.

Wonder if your auld man thought the same as you?

I'm sure the billy goats gruff will be along soon and get you back under the bridge
(just hope its not the loyalist paramilitary linked 3 king billy goats gruff)

Toodle pip from a stella supping Vlad Dracul
 Strider886
Joined: 3/28/2006
Msg: 29
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Fathers rights in the UK
Posted: 8/17/2013 3:36:29 PM

Well the hell are men still stupid enough to have children with Western women? When will they learn their lesson? Having a child with a Western woman is taking a huge gamble. Yes, men are waking up, but far too slowly.


That's not the right question........

It's true that in the UK certain women, well actually it's more like "women in certain social circles" do seem to get nasty and vindictive toward the father of their children. BUT seriously the signs are there right from the beginning!!!! So the question is: "Why the hell are men picking the wrong western women?" If a woman has a bad attitude ffs walk away......
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