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 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 26
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Erosion and the Grand CanyonPage 2 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
Karst formations are common in the region, formed over millions of years. Your implication that Florida was all sand, seemed to be a river delta, and there was mysteriously no science to explain Florida, seemed to be a stealth attempt to bring the mythical biblical flood into science.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 27
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History
Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/11/2011 5:40:36 AM
Krebby..This region here is world reknowned for it's karst geology, the point where Tennessee, Alabama, and Georgia meet, the TAG area. Thousands of known caves, running for thousands of miles underground. There was one report of Tennessee River water from near here bubbling out in a spring in Florida. One of my favorite summer breaks from the heat is Bluegrass Underground, afternoon concerts deep underground in a giant dome room. Stays at 56 degrees and the acoustics are amazing.
http://bluegrassunderground.com/
 POFTNT
Joined: 3/15/2011
Msg: 28
Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/15/2011 6:41:31 AM
Krebby,

This made me laugh.

TNT
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 29
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/16/2011 11:15:08 PM
yeah, looks like water cut it.
sure a lot of dirt there, mile or more thick and goes in all directions for what, several hundred miles. layer after layer, mostly delivered by water. ocean did it, they say, over and over.
 TheLimey
Joined: 2/24/2008
Msg: 30
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History
Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/20/2011 4:14:39 PM
I was under the impression the Big Ditch was created when a Scotsman dropped a nickel down a gopher hole & went after it with a shovel..
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 31
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History
Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/22/2011 5:21:14 PM
Agreed Krebby..The Scots/sots of today celebrate their abundant rainfall, fine waters for their special malts. It was not that long ago they were a desert.
 shakeitupbaby2012
Joined: 8/12/2010
Msg: 32
Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/22/2011 6:01:00 PM
Being an avocational archaeologist, this is what I can
Offer:
The open displays of layered rock is but one method in dating geological formations.
Layers dating back to the Paleozoic Era, for example, are examined based on other such finds in other areas and comparative research is conducted that is not limited to carbon dating, examination of deposits in the rock, etc., as well as comparative matching data from other finds. Enough time has already elapsed to have formed the Mesozoic layer AND have had most of it deteriorate thru erosion.
I would have no doubt that it took such a feature so long to form having traveled extensively to
other major geological features and doing comparative observation and studies. Sometimes it's simply hard to grasp that measure of time.
Having lived on land for many years ( decades) and observing the slight changes to it furthers my understanding how it could take so long to effect such a large area like the Grand Canyon.

This link explains it in more detail:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_years_did_it_take_for_the_Colorado_river_to_form_the_Grand_Canyon

We're in the throws this week on a dig near Hondo, Texas with the Texas Archaeological society.
Join the society in your area and go on a dig and you will be amazed at what you observe and learn about archaeology, geology, history, etc.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 33
Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/22/2011 6:38:44 PM

Join the society in your area and go on a dig and you will be amazed at what you observe and learn about archaeology, geology, history, etc.


Now that would be AWESOME! Unfortunately, in Canada, I think you have to be licensed to participate in archaeological digs.
 shakeitupbaby2012
Joined: 8/12/2010
Msg: 34
Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/22/2011 8:31:51 PM
Stargazer- it's a kick in the pants . What prevents you from coming to Texas each mid-June? ;)

Here's where we are thus week: Hondo , Texas. Central Trxas.

Here are two great sites that will give you an idea of what we do and what is available to the public when they join an organization like this.

Well, the first site anyway. The second site is a favorite of mine as I love history, especially Texas history.

I've been on digs in the US and in Mexico and will concentrate on Texas. To much to tell in this venue.

http://www.txarch.org/Activities/fschool/fs2011/index.php

The dig was last week but some of us are doing follow up.

http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/plateaus/index.html

I set this to the page about plateaus and canyonlands in Texas since the canyon

Is germaine to the OP. My first 'dig' was with my Aunt in Palo Duro Canyon in the Texas Panhandle when I was 9 or 10.
Good times .

The stars at night are big and bright out in Texas Stargazer-
 shakeitupbaby2012
Joined: 8/12/2010
Msg: 35
Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/22/2011 8:37:41 PM
Canadian Archeological Association has a field school and you can participate. It's similar to the TAS ( TX Arch Society) where the digs are coordinated thru both the TAS and Texas Universities.
Holy crap, the University of Calgary has a dig in Antigua. Sign
me UP.

http://www.canadianarchaeology.com/caa/discover-archaeology/links#54
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 36
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History
Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/22/2011 9:54:46 PM
In Canada, any licensing is likely to be regulated provincially, and is likely to only apply to the actual organizer or primary researcher. Such licensing is more likely to focus on how the work is to be done, and not so much on the qualifications of those doing the work. Workers and volunteers are not likely to require ANY qualifications beyond those set out by the organizers. How would a student ever get any practical experience otherwise? I'm painting with broad strokes here, since archaeology, anthropology, paleontology, and geology are largely separate fields, even though they overlap one another to varying degrees.
 shakeitupbaby2012
Joined: 8/12/2010
Msg: 37
Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/22/2011 10:11:25 PM
^^^ Per the Canadian link posted, that's how it's done. In the digs I've participated in the sponsoring University's archaeology prof leads the dig. The accompanying Arcaeological Society has trained members ( some are newly trained ) in varying degrees who
work in the field, in surveying, in the lab etc. and who do the bulk of the work. The university prof has a summer class of students there earning credits toward their related degree. The dig is a very intense and concentrated and concerted effort to handle a large task within a week. A field crew examines the area the previous year based on enough solid info that it may be a archaeologically rich or specific site, as was the Presidio San Saba at Menard, Texas, etc.
As is often the case, there are degree'd archaeologists on site simply as members. It's always a very interesting blend of people who are quite like- minded and who all share at least this one interest.
My special area of interest has been lithics for which I've been further instructed. It's taken me to many an interesting place to view and record lithic sites ( most specifically the rock art of Natuve Americans)etc. It's really interesting.

Krebby- what part of the hill country are you in just out of curiosity? I know it well-
 shakeitupbaby2012
Joined: 8/12/2010
Msg: 38
Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/22/2011 10:45:48 PM
Too cool. Seriously. I was just down in New Braunfels on the river . Gruene at the Gruene Hall and the Gristmill.

The place you're on sounds great. The renovation and the finds. THAT kind of stuff is what really gets me going.

The Anasazi- A bit west- more at the Four Corners.

I met an archaeologist at the dig and were talking about taking horses into the Big Bend area and riding for two weeks to locate and map some sites. I could do this kind of thing forever but I have other interests.
Enjoy the hill country- I miss it.
 shakeitupbaby2012
Joined: 8/12/2010
Msg: 39
Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/23/2011 7:47:19 AM
^^oh, I'm very familiar with using known info and surmising where things are likely to turn up. We just have a lot of info and data that has been collected on that area and thought it would be both interesting and fun.
I just moved from n central Tx and had land there and used the topo and water etc to scout for artifacts and found signs of an old Native encampment. I just enjoy the history of it all .
Well- I'm a native Texan and we all have a bit of Native American blood in us. This is another reason I'm
so interested in the history and the digs of Native American sites.
We had a dig just n of Paris Tx a few years ago and uncovered a Forche Maline village that dates back
About 4 thousand years. Standing there on that sight, knowing these people inhabited it at one time--well, I pictured it all and could see children running around the creek, the people going about their day- it's incredibly empowering to experience it all and it's great to see it all unearthed first hand.

Yes, the Pedernales is great. The guys in TAS who do some flint knapping told me it's the best source for flint. I've been
on the Pedernales a lot. It's not far from a place I spend a lot of time at.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 40
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History
Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/23/2011 2:26:37 PM
Did ya'll hear about the oldest american piece of art found recently. 13,000 year old carving of a mastadon, done 7,000 years before the "creation of the Earth".
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/06/110622-mammoth-bone-oldest-art-americas-science/
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 41
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/24/2011 2:17:34 AM
Kreb...We have caves here with known habitation of around 10,000 years. One of the intriguing aspects of the mammoth art piece, is that the Florida artwork was similar to trans-Atlantic art of the time, raising the possibility of ocean travel 10,000 years or so prior to the columbian infestation of the americas.
http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com/2010/11/12/oldest_american_art_reexamined/

One of my old buds from childhood was wound up in the Atlantis in Wisconsin idea last year. http://www.burlingtonnews.net/rocklake.html
That theory also holds that trans-oceanic travel from europe also occured thousands of years before the Spanish, and most folks now acknowledge that Leif Ericsson beat Columbus by 500 years or so, also perhaps introducing first nations lineage to Iceland.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2033038,00.html

The legends of Welsh Prince Madoc at Fort Mountain, and the Portugese or Welsh mixing of blood with first nations via Melungeons around here, also suggest that ocean travel and commerce, getting along, and less genocide were common before the Spanish brought manifest destiny to these shores.
http://www.melungeons.com/articles/jan2003.htm
http://www.robertsewell.ca/madoc.html

And...we have living fossils here in the form of Umbrella Magnolias, Mountain Magnolias and other tree species that have been around for 130 million years or so. The same food of the dinosaurs still grows in these parts. To happen upon an Umbrella Magnolia flower, inhale it's intoxicating scent, puts one's head swimming and swirling in history.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 42
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/24/2011 2:48:30 PM
Kreb...Have you ever pondered Puma Punku? Still scratching my head on the technology needed to cut the rocks, transport them and build the place.
http://hubpages.com/hub/Ancient-Mysteries-Puma-Punku-in-Tiahuanaco
 shakeitupbaby2012
Joined: 8/12/2010
Msg: 43
Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/24/2011 4:53:14 PM
Earthpuppy:
Thanks for the mastadon link. I had heard about it but it was nice to read the articles.
When I took art history the oldest known cave drawings were in Lasceaux France.
Comparative studies are done when drawings and etchings pop
Up in other regions so the data coming back from this find will be interesting.

Puma: a bit similar to the pyramids etc.
Lots of man power and time. I watched a documentary on this type of construction - in that era- and they figure that they were quarried on site - shaped etc and that it took a while obviously. May have used sleds- large timbers and ropes to haul them. what a
Project.

Kreb- I don't think of my heritage as being 'trendy'. I'm quite proud to be a 7th generation Texan but moreso to be part of my family and all that my heritage is to me.
Glad the hill country got some much needed rain.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 44
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/24/2011 6:47:54 PM
The new Werner Herzog film sounds amazing from all the reviews I have read. http://movies.nytimes.com/2011/04/29/movies/werner-herzogs-cave-of-forgotten-dreams-review.html

My last excellent ex and I had a rock shelter a few hundred feet below the plateau, in a pristine, ancient canyon in our back yard. This particular rock shelter was nearly a football field long, 40 foot deep, and 30 foot tall at its apexes. It sat around 50-60 feet above the babbling creek below, with magnificent views of the surround, in the Mixed Mesophytic Forests of these parts, as old as the dinosaurs.

There was this spot, in the middle of this rock shelter, where one could hear the singing voices of water, wind and wilderness merging with the quiet of self awareness of special places. The creek sang, and I heard voices. Sitting there one day, I was overwhelmed by what felt like the multiple beings that had lived in that space. It was almost like being in their living room, hearing their concerns and conversations, like an intruder, but also welcomed for understanding my role in slipping between the worlds. I set other people in that place, not disclosing my personal experience at the time, just asked them to report back if they had any sort of experience beyond the normal for that setting, and all reported being in the midst of spirits and energy of the place, far beyond recent habitation, The sensations were all nearly identical, including the sounds, sense of being surrounded, and benign interest in our being there. Just one of those stories that seem quite common in these ancient hills, lands taken by conquest and conflict, for thousands of years. Do I believe as my bud Louise stated when she left, that "there is too much ancient conflict and blood on these rocks for me to bear".? Maybe. I am not religious in the least, but sometimes, things happen beyond rational description, and it keep my mind open to the great spirit, goddess, whatever...as long as ther is no conquistador/crusades/jihad agenda involved.
 shakeitupbaby2012
Joined: 8/12/2010
Msg: 45
Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/24/2011 7:29:08 PM
EP: What a magical place to have been able to visit and have on your land.
I just sold a tract of land where I spent many a day simply wandering the place and had days of finding artifacts of the Pioneers and Native Americans- too many things to name really.
Just like on the digs I attend, I take the time to just place myself in that time and place where others wandered the land I'm
Walking on or digging on, etc. The ranch I had had been in a family for over 100 years and was basically untouched. I had many times when I could picture the people who had been there before me living near the creek where I found many chards of rock from making tools etc. Signs of a small camp/ habitation.
I always have such a sense of wonder about the people who have come before us- well before us.
The rock shelter and that area sound great. Was this in TN? What area of the State?
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 46
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History
Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/24/2011 11:34:45 PM
I think the date of the bone was assumed because of this assumption;


Scientists also determined the 15-inch-long (38-centimeter-long) bone fragment had belonged to one of three animals: a mammoth, a mastodon, or a giant sloth—all of which died out in the region at the end of the last ice age, between about 12,000 to 10,000 years ago.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 47
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/25/2011 2:23:21 AM
Sowrite..
I live 14 miles north of Chattanooga on Waldens Ridge, an arm of the Cumberland Plateau, just above North Chickamauga Creek, aka North Chick. Our rock shelter was on Cooper Creek one of the most significant tributaries of North Chick. Access to these areas is very limiting, thus old growth forests still reside in these coves. Took an Audubon tree book down a couple of times to try to ID some of the puzzling species. Seems to be localized subspecies from that isolation. Also part of what Lucy Braun referred to as the Mixed Mesophytic Forest, one of the most diverse and oldest forest types on the planet, escaping glaciations and inland seas for the 100 million years or so, acting as the mother forest to reseed impacted areas. The Ozarks are similar, as is a region in China with many of the same ancient species.
http://www.northchick.org/watershed.html
http://courses.nres.uiuc.edu/nres285-499/PDF/Dev%20Decid%20For%20of%20East.pdf
I live a thousand feet above North Chick. The plateau shows readily shows signs that it was a seabed before the uplift.

Lots of rock shelters. I work with the local rangers and first nations guardians to keep them from desecration by those who illegally dig. They are protected cultural resources.
 shakeitupbaby2012
Joined: 8/12/2010
Msg: 48
Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/25/2011 5:53:50 AM
You live in a sacred and beautiful place. Some of my family came thru TN before settling in Texas, as many others have done.
They lived N of where you're at- up the ridge NE of Cold Spring on Hinch Mt. Pretty area.
The picture of the greenway and gorge are really great.
It's both good and necessary that people preserve the artifacts by leaving them alone. Few who are lay people leave them alone.
It would be great if we had the digs, photographed and catalogued the finds and returned them
to the earth. They are all identified and catalogued and carried to TAS in Austin etc for safekeeping and further studies .
One of the neatest things I uncovered- to me- was a Fourche Maline paint pot dating back 4000 years. There were paint stains and remnants of clay that had pigments in it. It felt as though someone had just used it and laid it back on
their vanity so to speak. As an artist it was good to see just how they mixed the paint and substrate.

So you live above the gorge which is a bit like living above a canyon ;)
I would have been climbing it and checking it all out. The things that nature shows us is amazing .
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 49
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/28/2011 8:41:50 PM
Fulcrum power and slave labor aside, the technology needed to cut such hard stone with such precision sans hyper tech, remains a mystery to many. Ideas??
 shakeitupbaby2012
Joined: 8/12/2010
Msg: 50
Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/29/2011 7:38:15 PM
As an artist, I've worked in stone. The good thing about it is that it's malleable once it's split to the closest dimension desired - thru sanding, planing etc and could be made to fit thru devoting time to
The project. There was no time line to these projects- it was more important to get it done well and some took decades.
Still a remarkable feat with the tools at hand.
The artisans of the times were quite skilled.

http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/top50stones.htm
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