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 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 44
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Erosion and the Grand CanyonPage 3 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
The new Werner Herzog film sounds amazing from all the reviews I have read. http://movies.nytimes.com/2011/04/29/movies/werner-herzogs-cave-of-forgotten-dreams-review.html

My last excellent ex and I had a rock shelter a few hundred feet below the plateau, in a pristine, ancient canyon in our back yard. This particular rock shelter was nearly a football field long, 40 foot deep, and 30 foot tall at its apexes. It sat around 50-60 feet above the babbling creek below, with magnificent views of the surround, in the Mixed Mesophytic Forests of these parts, as old as the dinosaurs.

There was this spot, in the middle of this rock shelter, where one could hear the singing voices of water, wind and wilderness merging with the quiet of self awareness of special places. The creek sang, and I heard voices. Sitting there one day, I was overwhelmed by what felt like the multiple beings that had lived in that space. It was almost like being in their living room, hearing their concerns and conversations, like an intruder, but also welcomed for understanding my role in slipping between the worlds. I set other people in that place, not disclosing my personal experience at the time, just asked them to report back if they had any sort of experience beyond the normal for that setting, and all reported being in the midst of spirits and energy of the place, far beyond recent habitation, The sensations were all nearly identical, including the sounds, sense of being surrounded, and benign interest in our being there. Just one of those stories that seem quite common in these ancient hills, lands taken by conquest and conflict, for thousands of years. Do I believe as my bud Louise stated when she left, that "there is too much ancient conflict and blood on these rocks for me to bear".? Maybe. I am not religious in the least, but sometimes, things happen beyond rational description, and it keep my mind open to the great spirit, goddess, whatever...as long as ther is no conquistador/crusades/jihad agenda involved.
 shakeitupbaby2012
Joined: 8/12/2010
Msg: 45
Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/24/2011 7:29:08 PM
EP: What a magical place to have been able to visit and have on your land.
I just sold a tract of land where I spent many a day simply wandering the place and had days of finding artifacts of the Pioneers and Native Americans- too many things to name really.
Just like on the digs I attend, I take the time to just place myself in that time and place where others wandered the land I'm
Walking on or digging on, etc. The ranch I had had been in a family for over 100 years and was basically untouched. I had many times when I could picture the people who had been there before me living near the creek where I found many chards of rock from making tools etc. Signs of a small camp/ habitation.
I always have such a sense of wonder about the people who have come before us- well before us.
The rock shelter and that area sound great. Was this in TN? What area of the State?
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 46
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/24/2011 11:34:45 PM
I think the date of the bone was assumed because of this assumption;


Scientists also determined the 15-inch-long (38-centimeter-long) bone fragment had belonged to one of three animals: a mammoth, a mastodon, or a giant sloth—all of which died out in the region at the end of the last ice age, between about 12,000 to 10,000 years ago.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 47
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/25/2011 2:23:21 AM
Sowrite..
I live 14 miles north of Chattanooga on Waldens Ridge, an arm of the Cumberland Plateau, just above North Chickamauga Creek, aka North Chick. Our rock shelter was on Cooper Creek one of the most significant tributaries of North Chick. Access to these areas is very limiting, thus old growth forests still reside in these coves. Took an Audubon tree book down a couple of times to try to ID some of the puzzling species. Seems to be localized subspecies from that isolation. Also part of what Lucy Braun referred to as the Mixed Mesophytic Forest, one of the most diverse and oldest forest types on the planet, escaping glaciations and inland seas for the 100 million years or so, acting as the mother forest to reseed impacted areas. The Ozarks are similar, as is a region in China with many of the same ancient species.
http://www.northchick.org/watershed.html
http://courses.nres.uiuc.edu/nres285-499/PDF/Dev%20Decid%20For%20of%20East.pdf
I live a thousand feet above North Chick. The plateau shows readily shows signs that it was a seabed before the uplift.

Lots of rock shelters. I work with the local rangers and first nations guardians to keep them from desecration by those who illegally dig. They are protected cultural resources.
 shakeitupbaby2012
Joined: 8/12/2010
Msg: 48
Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/25/2011 5:53:50 AM
You live in a sacred and beautiful place. Some of my family came thru TN before settling in Texas, as many others have done.
They lived N of where you're at- up the ridge NE of Cold Spring on Hinch Mt. Pretty area.
The picture of the greenway and gorge are really great.
It's both good and necessary that people preserve the artifacts by leaving them alone. Few who are lay people leave them alone.
It would be great if we had the digs, photographed and catalogued the finds and returned them
to the earth. They are all identified and catalogued and carried to TAS in Austin etc for safekeeping and further studies .
One of the neatest things I uncovered- to me- was a Fourche Maline paint pot dating back 4000 years. There were paint stains and remnants of clay that had pigments in it. It felt as though someone had just used it and laid it back on
their vanity so to speak. As an artist it was good to see just how they mixed the paint and substrate.

So you live above the gorge which is a bit like living above a canyon ;)
I would have been climbing it and checking it all out. The things that nature shows us is amazing .
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 49
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/28/2011 8:41:50 PM
Fulcrum power and slave labor aside, the technology needed to cut such hard stone with such precision sans hyper tech, remains a mystery to many. Ideas??
 shakeitupbaby2012
Joined: 8/12/2010
Msg: 50
Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/29/2011 7:38:15 PM
As an artist, I've worked in stone. The good thing about it is that it's malleable once it's split to the closest dimension desired - thru sanding, planing etc and could be made to fit thru devoting time to
The project. There was no time line to these projects- it was more important to get it done well and some took decades.
Still a remarkable feat with the tools at hand.
The artisans of the times were quite skilled.

http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/top50stones.htm
 shakeitupbaby2012
Joined: 8/12/2010
Msg: 51
Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/29/2011 8:23:37 PM
Ha-

I'm thinking when one spends 30-40 years carving stone they get pretty good at it-
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 52
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/30/2011 4:29:20 AM
The thing that causes me doubts and consternations about the carefully fitted, but still randomly shaped great stones in South America, is the apparent lack of CONSISTENCY in the rest of the civilisation. That a people would put THAT much careful fanaticism into carving great stone blocks, and apparently NO WHERE ELSE in their lives, doesn't fit with my appreciation of human kind.

As with the canyon thingy, I'm not thinking 'space aliens,' I'm just thinking there's something VERY strange there, which I've heard no explanation for. I am completely convinced that peoples USED TO simply accept that to accomplish great tasks, required great and time consuming effort, which explains the great buildings of the world such as the pyramids. But in Egypt, we can see that the level of precision in construction is consistent through out everything they did in each era.

No doubt, if we ever DO know how and why the great stones were moved and fitted as they were, it WILL be through entirely normal-level human ingenuity, but the story of why it shows up ONLY in the stones will be illuminating.
 shakeitupbaby2012
Joined: 8/12/2010
Msg: 53
Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/30/2011 12:21:48 PM

The thing that causes me doubts and consternations about the carefully fitted, but still randomly shaped great stones in South America, is the apparent lack of CONSISTENCY in the rest of the civilisation. That a people would put THAT much careful fanaticism into carving great stone blocks, and apparently NO WHERE ELSE in their lives, doesn't fit with my appreciation of human kind


Well, perhaps put in under review in a historical and cultural influence context.
The earliest known present day culture was in Mesopotamia - Egypt , Asia etc.
The Greeks. Who heavily influenced the Egyptians in applying the Golden Mean- a universal measurement for man represented in art, building etc. Much precision was used by applying this in these and other concrete undertakings.

Now move to the South American culture, who weren't influenced by the Greeks etc ( yet).
They were living more hand to mouth ( Greek/ Egyptian were affluent due to trade etc)
and I would generally say that the buildings that were erected with great care were of either religious significance, aka, a big deal, or it was housing of some sort, Aka, a semi- big deal.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 54
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/30/2011 2:21:56 PM
sowrite..Have you ever worked with diorite? Many claim that the only way to work it is with diamond tools. The sheer smoothness of many of the larger blocks would require diamond polishing wheels as well it would seem. The precision of the holes indicates drill, again needing diamond drills? And just how did they move the quarried stone 10 miles at an altitude above the treeline? How would we recreate this structure and move many hundred tons without machines today?
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 55
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/30/2011 3:20:46 PM

but if you're referring to slavery, war, etc. being fought alongside of the building of those great structures, I don't see much difference between then and what's happening now


Specifically NO. I'm looking JUST at the artifacts, NOT at the social behaviors. The stones are so precisely adjusted to fit each other, it is as though they were cast in place, and not carved and then set. What I'm NOT seeing, are other equally fanatically crafted artifacts.

Sowrite: I'm always wary of the "religious" reason being given by archaeologists to explain otherwise confusing behaviors. As part of my one-time goal to become an archaeologist myself, I took a number of college courses, interacted with other archaeologists, as well as read extensively in their literature, and I repeatedly ran into archaeologists saying somewhat apologetically, that "religion" was the easy fall-back explanation for any artifact whose other function they couldn't explain.

Besides, as I learned from Agatha Christie, via her character Hercule Poirot, even CRAZY people have internally consistent logic. What makes no sense to a sane person, once adjusted to match the distortion caused by their mental unrest, makes complete sense. In the same way, I expect the behavior of a nation to be internally consistent.
 shakeitupbaby2012
Joined: 8/12/2010
Msg: 56
Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/30/2011 5:46:00 PM
Pup: I haven't used diorite in my art but I've seen it etc.
I believe ancient civilizations used IT as a tool to work other rock etc-

Igor: you're looking at this as a skeptic ;) and not in a scientific manner perhaps?
Scientifically, Archeologists and scientists base these ideas and hypothesis on being open minded to what could simply be possible.
Then they begin the long study and field observations to piece together what is seen as repeated use and living standards in a given culture and area.
Artifacts, forensic and food/ personal remains demonstrate how a people has lived over time.
Religion, or the belief in a higher power or being, has been shown to play a huge role in past and present civilizations.
Annual pilgrimmages of tribes and others were shown to have had a religious significance.
Often times structures seem to have been built for that purpose.
I've seen too many dig sites, features and artifacts to doubt it personally.

Take some of the structures in Egypt. One of entities they worshipped was the Sun ( god).
Many of their temple- like buildings , pyramids and other structures have pictographs demonstrating their worship of the Sun god.
While it may not be of complete religious relevance, it played a large role.
 shakeitupbaby2012
Joined: 8/12/2010
Msg: 57
Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/30/2011 5:47:57 PM
Pup: I haven't used diorite in my art but I've seen it etc.
I believe ancient civilizations used IT as a tool to work other rock etc-

Igor: you're looking at this as a skeptic ;) and not in a scientific manner perhaps?
Scientifically, Archeologists and scientists base these ideas and hypothesis on being open minded to what could simply be possible.
Then they begin the long study and field observations to piece together what is seen as repeated use and living standards in a given culture and area.
Artifacts, forensic and food/ personal remains demonstrate how a people has lived over time.
Religion, or the belief in a higher power or being, has been shown to play a huge role in past and present civilizations.
Annual pilgrimmages of tribes and others were shown to have had a religious significance.
Often times structures seem to have been built for that purpose.
I've seen too many dig sites, features and artifacts to doubt it personally.

Take some of the structures in Egypt. One of entities they worshipped was the Sun ( god).
Many of their temple- like buildings , pyramids and other structures have pictographs demonstrating their worship of the Sun god.
While it may not be of complete religious relevance, it played a large role.
 shakeitupbaby2012
Joined: 8/12/2010
Msg: 58
Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/30/2011 5:48:49 PM
sorry- double post
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 59
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/30/2011 5:52:25 PM
I've watched the rapid erosion of human reasoning in my short lifetime, and in the past decade in particular. It's truly amazing how quickly a mass of people can become a critical mass of ignorance and witch burners, willing to kill millions of innocent people when the tribal drums are beating. All these eons of evolution, and we are still basically too many monkeys on the rock slinging feces and posturing to get laid and heard.

These brief moments that archeology represents in common endeavors beyond our current abilities to work together to keep bridges from falling down, dwarf our high tech, high ideals, and temporary superiority complexes.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 60
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/30/2011 9:00:54 PM
OK, I don't care how much time it took to cut the gouge, but the ocean came and went a meriad of times to deposit all that crap, [over a mile deap].
 arwen52
Joined: 3/13/2008
Msg: 61
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 7/4/2011 7:57:38 PM

These brief moments that archeology represents in common endeavors beyond our current abilities to work together to keep bridges from falling down, dwarf our high tech, high ideals, and temporary superiority complexes.


Common endeavors often enforced by powerful rulers and accomplished by slaves.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 62
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 7/6/2011 4:28:48 PM
When looking at the Grand Canyon from space, one could conclude that a Creationist would see the biblical flood as the only obvious conclusion. When all you have is a hammer, everything, including shots from space, are nails.

The view is different however, on the ground, and in the reality based community who have studied the erosion process first hand.
 denswei2
Joined: 11/17/2010
Msg: 63
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 7/6/2011 6:30:18 PM
Looking at the Grand Canyon from the bottom of it, you would conclude it was caused by gradual erosion, not a single massive flood.
I've hiked it, and the evidence is around you, underfoot, and if you're really careless, on top of you. The steep sides of the Grand Canyon (and all the dirt & rock falling off it) shows that it is still eroding & falling into the river, the amount of sediments carried in the river, and the down stream deposits show that it is still being carried off by the river.
The only weak point that the creationists can make is that some of the erosion is episodic: Before the river was dammed, the river would periodically flood & cause large amounts of erosion in short amounts of time. It is an moot point though, since periodic floods & high water is still a gradual process (geologically speaking); And a silly point because the Grand Canyon cuts through a wide range of stratified rock formations (many of which required thousands or millions of years to create, under many different conditions).
 FyrKrakn
Joined: 2/21/2010
Msg: 64
Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 7/7/2011 12:13:24 AM
I come from a family of geologists, but not being one myself, I can only say what they said to me.

Erosion can happen rapidly and slowly but mostly happens in spurts with rest periods.

Like the game Jenga, you pull one block at a time and then one final block causes a major tumble.

Also, I was living near Mt. St. Helens when it blew. Hundreds of geologists were astounded at the geological change, one was quoted as saying, "what we thought took millions of years just took three minutes."
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 65
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 7/7/2011 8:34:23 PM
The flood of religious influences have been even more well documented in their erosion of critical thinking skills over time, and time and again. Going through a gully washer in my lifetime.
 FyrKrakn
Joined: 2/21/2010
Msg: 66
Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 7/7/2011 8:52:16 PM
Speaking in terms of Arizona, I know one particular area very well. We give maps to the LE agents and offciers but they still get lost. Whole roads in the desert can disappear in an evening of monsoon or winter rain. The arroyos/ washes/ dry river beds, can alter course to extremes. Maps are just a guide. Most recent sat views don't necessarily help.

The water can under cut and change a cliffside in a heartbeat. An underground cave can open up, or a sink can appear out of nowhere. A well known cave may collapse. All of this on any given day.
 Professoro
Joined: 8/1/2011
Msg: 67
Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 8/16/2011 7:59:00 PM
The Grand Canyon was formed from gradual processes with the erosion accelerated at times by large amplitude, but not catastrophic, events. Like most geophysical events, these events occur over a broad range of time scales cheers, O
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 68
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 8/17/2011 10:43:30 PM
Boy, you guys sure get jumpy when the words flood waters comes up.
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