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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Erosion and the Grand Canyon      Home login  
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 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 26
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Erosion and the Grand CanyonPage 5 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
Krebby..This region here is world reknowned for it's karst geology, the point where Tennessee, Alabama, and Georgia meet, the TAG area. Thousands of known caves, running for thousands of miles underground. There was one report of Tennessee River water from near here bubbling out in a spring in Florida. One of my favorite summer breaks from the heat is Bluegrass Underground, afternoon concerts deep underground in a giant dome room. Stays at 56 degrees and the acoustics are amazing.
http://bluegrassunderground.com/
 POFTNT
Joined: 3/15/2011
Msg: 27
Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/15/2011 6:41:31 AM
Krebby,

This made me laugh.

TNT
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 28
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/16/2011 11:15:08 PM
yeah, looks like water cut it.
sure a lot of dirt there, mile or more thick and goes in all directions for what, several hundred miles. layer after layer, mostly delivered by water. ocean did it, they say, over and over.
 TheLimey
Joined: 2/24/2008
Msg: 29
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/20/2011 4:14:39 PM
I was under the impression the Big Ditch was created when a Scotsman dropped a nickel down a gopher hole & went after it with a shovel..
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 30
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/22/2011 5:21:14 PM
Agreed Krebby..The Scots/sots of today celebrate their abundant rainfall, fine waters for their special malts. It was not that long ago they were a desert.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 32
Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/22/2011 6:38:44 PM

Join the society in your area and go on a dig and you will be amazed at what you observe and learn about archaeology, geology, history, etc.


Now that would be AWESOME! Unfortunately, in Canada, I think you have to be licensed to participate in archaeological digs.
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 35
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/22/2011 9:54:46 PM
In Canada, any licensing is likely to be regulated provincially, and is likely to only apply to the actual organizer or primary researcher. Such licensing is more likely to focus on how the work is to be done, and not so much on the qualifications of those doing the work. Workers and volunteers are not likely to require ANY qualifications beyond those set out by the organizers. How would a student ever get any practical experience otherwise? I'm painting with broad strokes here, since archaeology, anthropology, paleontology, and geology are largely separate fields, even though they overlap one another to varying degrees.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 39
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/23/2011 2:26:37 PM
Did ya'll hear about the oldest american piece of art found recently. 13,000 year old carving of a mastadon, done 7,000 years before the "creation of the Earth".
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/06/110622-mammoth-bone-oldest-art-americas-science/
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 40
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/24/2011 2:17:34 AM
Kreb...We have caves here with known habitation of around 10,000 years. One of the intriguing aspects of the mammoth art piece, is that the Florida artwork was similar to trans-Atlantic art of the time, raising the possibility of ocean travel 10,000 years or so prior to the columbian infestation of the americas.
http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com/2010/11/12/oldest_american_art_reexamined/

One of my old buds from childhood was wound up in the Atlantis in Wisconsin idea last year. http://www.burlingtonnews.net/rocklake.html
That theory also holds that trans-oceanic travel from europe also occured thousands of years before the Spanish, and most folks now acknowledge that Leif Ericsson beat Columbus by 500 years or so, also perhaps introducing first nations lineage to Iceland.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2033038,00.html

The legends of Welsh Prince Madoc at Fort Mountain, and the Portugese or Welsh mixing of blood with first nations via Melungeons around here, also suggest that ocean travel and commerce, getting along, and less genocide were common before the Spanish brought manifest destiny to these shores.
http://www.melungeons.com/articles/jan2003.htm
http://www.robertsewell.ca/madoc.html

And...we have living fossils here in the form of Umbrella Magnolias, Mountain Magnolias and other tree species that have been around for 130 million years or so. The same food of the dinosaurs still grows in these parts. To happen upon an Umbrella Magnolia flower, inhale it's intoxicating scent, puts one's head swimming and swirling in history.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 41
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/24/2011 2:48:30 PM
Kreb...Have you ever pondered Puma Punku? Still scratching my head on the technology needed to cut the rocks, transport them and build the place.
http://hubpages.com/hub/Ancient-Mysteries-Puma-Punku-in-Tiahuanaco
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 43
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/24/2011 6:47:54 PM
The new Werner Herzog film sounds amazing from all the reviews I have read. http://movies.nytimes.com/2011/04/29/movies/werner-herzogs-cave-of-forgotten-dreams-review.html

My last excellent ex and I had a rock shelter a few hundred feet below the plateau, in a pristine, ancient canyon in our back yard. This particular rock shelter was nearly a football field long, 40 foot deep, and 30 foot tall at its apexes. It sat around 50-60 feet above the babbling creek below, with magnificent views of the surround, in the Mixed Mesophytic Forests of these parts, as old as the dinosaurs.

There was this spot, in the middle of this rock shelter, where one could hear the singing voices of water, wind and wilderness merging with the quiet of self awareness of special places. The creek sang, and I heard voices. Sitting there one day, I was overwhelmed by what felt like the multiple beings that had lived in that space. It was almost like being in their living room, hearing their concerns and conversations, like an intruder, but also welcomed for understanding my role in slipping between the worlds. I set other people in that place, not disclosing my personal experience at the time, just asked them to report back if they had any sort of experience beyond the normal for that setting, and all reported being in the midst of spirits and energy of the place, far beyond recent habitation, The sensations were all nearly identical, including the sounds, sense of being surrounded, and benign interest in our being there. Just one of those stories that seem quite common in these ancient hills, lands taken by conquest and conflict, for thousands of years. Do I believe as my bud Louise stated when she left, that "there is too much ancient conflict and blood on these rocks for me to bear".? Maybe. I am not religious in the least, but sometimes, things happen beyond rational description, and it keep my mind open to the great spirit, goddess, whatever...as long as ther is no conquistador/crusades/jihad agenda involved.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 45
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/24/2011 11:34:45 PM
I think the date of the bone was assumed because of this assumption;


Scientists also determined the 15-inch-long (38-centimeter-long) bone fragment had belonged to one of three animals: a mammoth, a mastodon, or a giant sloth—all of which died out in the region at the end of the last ice age, between about 12,000 to 10,000 years ago.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 46
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/25/2011 2:23:21 AM
Sowrite..
I live 14 miles north of Chattanooga on Waldens Ridge, an arm of the Cumberland Plateau, just above North Chickamauga Creek, aka North Chick. Our rock shelter was on Cooper Creek one of the most significant tributaries of North Chick. Access to these areas is very limiting, thus old growth forests still reside in these coves. Took an Audubon tree book down a couple of times to try to ID some of the puzzling species. Seems to be localized subspecies from that isolation. Also part of what Lucy Braun referred to as the Mixed Mesophytic Forest, one of the most diverse and oldest forest types on the planet, escaping glaciations and inland seas for the 100 million years or so, acting as the mother forest to reseed impacted areas. The Ozarks are similar, as is a region in China with many of the same ancient species.
http://www.northchick.org/watershed.html
http://courses.nres.uiuc.edu/nres285-499/PDF/Dev%20Decid%20For%20of%20East.pdf
I live a thousand feet above North Chick. The plateau shows readily shows signs that it was a seabed before the uplift.

Lots of rock shelters. I work with the local rangers and first nations guardians to keep them from desecration by those who illegally dig. They are protected cultural resources.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 48
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/28/2011 8:41:50 PM
Fulcrum power and slave labor aside, the technology needed to cut such hard stone with such precision sans hyper tech, remains a mystery to many. Ideas??
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 51
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/30/2011 4:29:20 AM
The thing that causes me doubts and consternations about the carefully fitted, but still randomly shaped great stones in South America, is the apparent lack of CONSISTENCY in the rest of the civilisation. That a people would put THAT much careful fanaticism into carving great stone blocks, and apparently NO WHERE ELSE in their lives, doesn't fit with my appreciation of human kind.

As with the canyon thingy, I'm not thinking 'space aliens,' I'm just thinking there's something VERY strange there, which I've heard no explanation for. I am completely convinced that peoples USED TO simply accept that to accomplish great tasks, required great and time consuming effort, which explains the great buildings of the world such as the pyramids. But in Egypt, we can see that the level of precision in construction is consistent through out everything they did in each era.

No doubt, if we ever DO know how and why the great stones were moved and fitted as they were, it WILL be through entirely normal-level human ingenuity, but the story of why it shows up ONLY in the stones will be illuminating.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 53
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/30/2011 2:21:56 PM
sowrite..Have you ever worked with diorite? Many claim that the only way to work it is with diamond tools. The sheer smoothness of many of the larger blocks would require diamond polishing wheels as well it would seem. The precision of the holes indicates drill, again needing diamond drills? And just how did they move the quarried stone 10 miles at an altitude above the treeline? How would we recreate this structure and move many hundred tons without machines today?
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 54
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/30/2011 3:20:46 PM

but if you're referring to slavery, war, etc. being fought alongside of the building of those great structures, I don't see much difference between then and what's happening now


Specifically NO. I'm looking JUST at the artifacts, NOT at the social behaviors. The stones are so precisely adjusted to fit each other, it is as though they were cast in place, and not carved and then set. What I'm NOT seeing, are other equally fanatically crafted artifacts.

Sowrite: I'm always wary of the "religious" reason being given by archaeologists to explain otherwise confusing behaviors. As part of my one-time goal to become an archaeologist myself, I took a number of college courses, interacted with other archaeologists, as well as read extensively in their literature, and I repeatedly ran into archaeologists saying somewhat apologetically, that "religion" was the easy fall-back explanation for any artifact whose other function they couldn't explain.

Besides, as I learned from Agatha Christie, via her character Hercule Poirot, even CRAZY people have internally consistent logic. What makes no sense to a sane person, once adjusted to match the distortion caused by their mental unrest, makes complete sense. In the same way, I expect the behavior of a nation to be internally consistent.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 58
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/30/2011 5:52:25 PM
I've watched the rapid erosion of human reasoning in my short lifetime, and in the past decade in particular. It's truly amazing how quickly a mass of people can become a critical mass of ignorance and witch burners, willing to kill millions of innocent people when the tribal drums are beating. All these eons of evolution, and we are still basically too many monkeys on the rock slinging feces and posturing to get laid and heard.

These brief moments that archeology represents in common endeavors beyond our current abilities to work together to keep bridges from falling down, dwarf our high tech, high ideals, and temporary superiority complexes.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 59
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 6/30/2011 9:00:54 PM
OK, I don't care how much time it took to cut the gouge, but the ocean came and went a meriad of times to deposit all that crap, [over a mile deap].
 arwen52
Joined: 3/13/2008
Msg: 60
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 7/4/2011 7:57:38 PM

These brief moments that archeology represents in common endeavors beyond our current abilities to work together to keep bridges from falling down, dwarf our high tech, high ideals, and temporary superiority complexes.


Common endeavors often enforced by powerful rulers and accomplished by slaves.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 61
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 7/6/2011 4:28:48 PM
When looking at the Grand Canyon from space, one could conclude that a Creationist would see the biblical flood as the only obvious conclusion. When all you have is a hammer, everything, including shots from space, are nails.

The view is different however, on the ground, and in the reality based community who have studied the erosion process first hand.
 denswei2
Joined: 11/17/2010
Msg: 62
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 7/6/2011 6:30:18 PM
Looking at the Grand Canyon from the bottom of it, you would conclude it was caused by gradual erosion, not a single massive flood.
I've hiked it, and the evidence is around you, underfoot, and if you're really careless, on top of you. The steep sides of the Grand Canyon (and all the dirt & rock falling off it) shows that it is still eroding & falling into the river, the amount of sediments carried in the river, and the down stream deposits show that it is still being carried off by the river.
The only weak point that the creationists can make is that some of the erosion is episodic: Before the river was dammed, the river would periodically flood & cause large amounts of erosion in short amounts of time. It is an moot point though, since periodic floods & high water is still a gradual process (geologically speaking); And a silly point because the Grand Canyon cuts through a wide range of stratified rock formations (many of which required thousands or millions of years to create, under many different conditions).
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 63
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 7/7/2011 8:34:23 PM
The flood of religious influences have been even more well documented in their erosion of critical thinking skills over time, and time and again. Going through a gully washer in my lifetime.
 Professoro
Joined: 8/1/2011
Msg: 64
Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 8/16/2011 7:59:00 PM
The Grand Canyon was formed from gradual processes with the erosion accelerated at times by large amplitude, but not catastrophic, events. Like most geophysical events, these events occur over a broad range of time scales cheers, O
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 65
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Erosion and the Grand Canyon
Posted: 8/17/2011 10:43:30 PM
Boy, you guys sure get jumpy when the words flood waters comes up.
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