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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage      Home login  
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 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 226
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NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriagePage 10 of 13    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13)

Homosexuality is still an evolutionary cul de sac..


Nice safe place to raise the kids though. Traffic tends to be slower and the kids are safer in cul de sacs.

You have heard of sperm donors and womb rentals for same sex couples? Nothing to prevent parents like that from pushing forth our precious genetics. And it's not like there is a shortage of humans or genetic diversity in the herd right now. To the contrary, overpopulation threatens us more than ever.

Many animal species thrive in that "cul de sac", around 1500 or so at last count, most of them older than the human species. Homosexuality, bi, and poly can all work to a species advantage in preventing violence, raising young, keeping herd viability, and preventing overpopulation.
http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/20718.aspx

Giving equal rights to humans who engage in homosexuality will in no way diminish the Kardashian or Gingrichian version of the sanctity of marriage.

And yes, when you start amending the constitution to give equal rights to women, do away with slavery and Jim Crow laws, give equal rights to blacks and first nations people, the door has already been opened.

The constitution is like the Bible, open to interpretation and amendable to suit an agenda, right or wrong. Equal rights should not have to be such a difficult concept to understand or have to wrestle with.

Perhaps a simple re-write of the bible would make it all go away...oh...they are doing that.
http://conservapedia.com/Conservative_Bible_Project
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 227
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NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/10/2012 9:19:13 AM
Gay marriage neither opens nor closes the door to polygamous marriage.


That's your opinion, for what it may be worth. I doubt you have the least idea whether that's true under American constitutional law. Judge Robert Bork, who taught constitutional law at Yale Law School for years, disagrees with you. Some others may defer to the profound knowledge of this subject you seem to think you have, judging by the self-assured, conclusive tone of your statements. But as for me, I'll go with Judge Bork.

Bork has written about what a Supreme Court ruling that same-sex marriage is a constitutional right would mean for state polygamy laws. He doesn't see how any state could continue to make polygamy illegal if it no longer had authority to make same-sex marriage illegal. The 14th Amendment's guarantee of the equal protection of the laws would present a big problem.

If it no longer served any legitimate government purpose to ban the one, it would be very hard to show that it served any to ban the other. And the same for bigamy, which is just a form of polygamy. The problems involved in distributing property at the end of these marriages could be solved by laws that specified how to do that, or by requiring a premarital contract which covered all that. If the practical objections were resolved, only moral objections would remain--and they wouldn't be valid.

It seems to me that also applies to incestuous marriages. A couple could easily solve the problem of the health of any children they might have by agreeing to be permanently sterilized. That would unmask the *real* reason states make adult incest illegal: Most people consider it immoral and unacceptable.


All of the issues that can be argued for polygamy are there without gay marriage.


That would only be true in states which legalized same-sex marriage on their own. As I said before, that would no longer hold if the Supreme Court forced same-sex marriage on all the states. There would be no legally convincing argument for prohibiting polygamy if a majority no longer had the right to enforce its views on sexual morality.

The same would be true of laws against bigamy, obscenity, prostitution, adult incest, bestiality, and other acts. Justice Scalia explained why, in detail, in his dissent in Lawrence v. Texas. Lawrence has already put all those laws on very shaky ground.


Equal rights should not have to be such a difficult concept to understand or have to wrestle with.


Even the most complex things are simple to the simple-minded, because the details which make all the difference are lost on them. A hundred and thirty-odd years' worth of Supreme Court opinions have established what the 14th Amendment means in different contexts. There are countless categories of people our everyday laws discriminate against in countless ways, all without violating the Constitution.

We deny children and ex-felons and non-resident aliens the vote. We refuse to let thieves rob people, no matter how much they want to. We discriminate against people who want to walk around nude in public and recreational heroin users. We tell adults they can't have sex with children. We won't let people buy alcohol if they're too young, or if it's too late at night. We won't even let people who are in a hurry run red lights or drive a hundred miles an hour.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 228
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NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/10/2012 4:55:24 PM


Why are you trying to reframe the poster's point into one she did not make...? She makes NOT ONE mention of "unconstitutional"...

I'm not; and she didn't have to.
Well, she wasn't asking about how the constitution feels about gay marriage because she didn't want to.

Go back and reread the post... There is not one mention of it... If you can point it out for me it will give me an excuse to buy some reading glasses...
Save your money on the reading glasses ... there truly is not one mention of it because I sincerely just wasn't concerned about how the constitution feels about gay marriage. (Maybe too, I wanted to avoid people asserting anything about the constitutionality of gay marriage?)



This thread is about New York becoming the sixth state to authorize same-sex marriages in its laws.

Clearly, the OP is asking what might best be summarized as "Are homosexuals persons as equally deserving of liberty as other persons ?"... A failure to understand this is nothing more than a failure of intellect...
I couldn't agree more!

Claiming those concerns are silly makes sense only if you are arguing what your own state's law on same-sex marriage should be.
Oh but I wasn't concerned about that at all ... only what I posted in the OP. And that did not involve anything to do with the constitution.
 unYOUsual
Joined: 8/11/2011
Msg: 229
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/11/2012 6:14:46 AM

NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
This is what you posted..."6th state to legalize gay marriage"...LEGALIZE......so you opened the door to the constitutionality of the law....Should have started a thread that said I think gays should be allowed to be married who cares about the constitution ..or something like that.


Maybe too, I wanted to avoid people asserting anything about the constitutionality of gay marriage?)
Of course you wanted to avoid anything about the constitutionality of gay marriage, typical disregard of the Constitution exhibited by a Liberal...after all Liberals know what's best for America founding fathers be damned after all they were all "White" males....


Are homosexuals persons as equally deserving of liberty as other persons ?"... A failure to understand this is nothing more than a failure of intellect...
Failure of intellect is basing your argument solely on your feelings.....no matter what argument people pose against gay marriage most of you go back to "it's not fair for gays to not have the" right" to be married".....
 Bladesmith81801
Joined: 10/30/2010
Msg: 230
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/11/2012 8:05:12 AM
For all his blathering, Match has yet to provide a cogent argument as to why Gays shouldn't be afforded the same rights as everyone else.
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 231
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NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/11/2012 9:50:09 AM
seems that not everyone is happy about this gay and gay marriage thing.
saying that it is in the uk where civil marriages happen

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/11/uk-men-death-penalty-antigay-trial-_n_1198927.html
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 232
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NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/11/2012 10:09:15 AM
Vlad.
The US has it's own fundie "Christians" pushing similar hatred around the world.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/04/world/africa/04uganda.html

Or as Dr. Scott Lively noted of their work there, "He said that a respected observer of society in Kampala had told him that our campaign was like a nuclear bomb against the "gay" agenda in Uganda. I pray that this, and the predictions, are true."
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 233
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NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/11/2012 10:19:17 AM
here EP i didnt say it was just muslims. i was reading something else and that
story popped up

as you can guess the huffington post is not high on my reading material
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 234
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/11/2012 1:42:22 PM

This is what you posted..."6th state to legalize gay marriage"...LEGALIZE......so you opened the door to the constitutionality of the law

It doesn't open the door to one thing about "the constitutionality of the law"... Unless YOU are prepared to assert that this law is in violation of the New York State Constitution... Beyond that, you are off-topic...


typical disregard of the Constitution exhibited by a Liberal...

And this is typical homophobic right-wing deflection used to avoid the ACTUAL question at hand...

In case you were lacking in sufficient intellectual rigor to understand this... The questions asked in the OP were philosophical/political questions... NOT constitutional questions... the "constitutional issue" does not arise until the political question has been answered...




Are homosexuals persons as equally deserving of liberty as other persons ?"... A failure to understand this is nothing more than a failure of intellect...

Failure of intellect is basing your argument solely on your feelings....

More typical homophobic right-wing deflection... There are NO "feelings" expressed in that question...

It is a simple philosophical/political question about a fundamental issue of liberty... It seems however, that is still not simple enough for some (such as homophobic right-wingers) as they seem to be unable to answer the question...
 jed456
Joined: 4/26/2005
Msg: 235
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NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/11/2012 5:13:58 PM
Not really sure how it works in Canada, but in America when you start amending the Constitution y0u open the door to a lot of things...


You certainly do such as.......The first ten the Bill of Rights,plus the 13,14, and 15 amendment's that abolished slavery and the 19th amendment which gave woman the right to vote.Oh BTW the second amendment also.

Why would anyone deny homosexual's equality ?And please most of those against it sound like the same people outraged over desegregation.Or do some still believe Black's should sit at the back of the bus?As for child molestation,polygamy and anything else people pull out of their hat it is totally irrelevant and a smokescreen.People speak of the majority, the supreme court and the Constitution are their to protect the rights of the minority of people in this country as well as the majority.If the majority of the people vote for child molestation to be legal then its okay? Of course not that is absurd!!!!!!!!!
 DartmouthRunner
Joined: 3/5/2009
Msg: 236
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/11/2012 5:35:26 PM
It is rather ironic that some people want to wave the constitution around as their argument but know squat about it. Not to mention ignore the fact that it has been amended twenty-seven times since its original signing.

Definition time!




a·mend·ment (-mndmnt)
n.

1. The act of changing for the better; improvement: "Society may sometimes show signs of repentance and amendment" (George G. Coulton).
2. A correction or alteration, as in a manuscript.
3.
a. The process of formally altering or adding to a document or record.
b. A statement of such an alteration or addition: The 19th Amendment to the Constitution gave women the right to vote.
4. A material, such as organic matter or sand, mixed into soil to improve growing conditions.

 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 237
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NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/11/2012 8:33:45 PM
Therefore, according to the Constitution, the States have the Constitutional right to decide how they want to handle gay marriage.


That's true--for now. And I think it should stay that way. But knowing the way the Supreme Court has handled these due process issues in the past, I doubt it will. Do you really think the Court wouldn't get into this if, say, fifteen states had made it legal, and force it on the other 35? Let's not be disingenuous--that is exactly what the cheerleaders for this are hoping.


It is rather ironic that some people want to wave the constitution around as their argument but know squat about it.


I wonder how you would know if they did, or didn't, unless you understood the argument.

The copies of the Constitution I use are in books on constitutional law, so I never wave them around. No point to it, it would scare my cat, and I think it would be awfully hard on the binding. I just study the important cases which interpret various parts of the Constitution and what legal scholars have written about them. Do you?

Each of the Amendments is part of the Constitution. If there's a particular one you think someone here is ignoring, why don't you just name it, and explain how they're ignoring it? That should be easy enough to do, for anyone who knows squat about it.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 238
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NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/11/2012 8:59:06 PM


It is rather ironic that some people want to wave the constitution around as their argument but know squat about it.

I wonder how you would know if they did, or didn't, unless you understood the argument.

There is no "constitutional" argument here to understand ... it was never addressed in the OP. It's not what this thread is all about. The last two questions are of particular interest to me.

I would suggest if someone wants to make a pertinent post ... how about giving an opinion on the questions in the OP.

How did "God" settle the issue of marriage?

What is "humanity's historic understanding of marriage"?

Isn't marriage merely a social union or legal contract between people that creates kinship?

How does allowing gays to marry "undermine marriage and/or the family"?

And how does allowing gays to marry "attempt to redefine the cornerstones of civilization"?
 Molly Maude
Joined: 9/11/2008
Msg: 239
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NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/12/2012 12:38:07 AM
Just this evening, I watched a film clip of Washington State's Governor Chris Gregoire that was quite moving as she logically, reasonably and even emotionally described the changes in her thinking as she was led to believe that preventing loving people from marrying is discrimination ... and has nothing to do with states' rights, government, religion ... it has to do with equality.

It breaks my heart to think of all the parents who are denied the joy of attending their children's weddings because a group of homophobic people have bullied the world into preventing loving people from marrying each other.

Washington may become the 7th state to push aside inequalities and legalize gay marriages!
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 240
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/12/2012 4:53:20 AM

preventing loving people from marrying is discrimination ... and has nothing to do with states' rights, government, religion ... it has to do with equality.


... how about giving an opinion on the questions in the OP.

That is exactly the question the pseudo-constitutionalists (particularly on this forum) wish so desperately to avoid... The 'political question' is like garlic to a vampire for them... It is why they try to frame it as a 'constitutional question' even though no 'constitutional question' exists as yet...

They know they can never win on the 'political question'... and that answering the 'political question' will make their position untenable...
 unYOUsual
Joined: 8/11/2011
Msg: 241
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/12/2012 5:54:01 AM
How did "God" settle the issue of marriage?One man one woman....

What is "humanity's historic understanding of marriage"? Marriage was designed to insure the propagation of our species and provide a nurturing environment that insured continued propagation of our species..

Isn't marriage merely a social union or legal contract between people that creates kinship?
Nope, Marriage is Marriage, if that is all it is then why aren't gays happy with Civil unions?

How does allowing gays to marry "undermine marriage and/or the family"?
Fosters an environment that encourages gay lifestyle..until there is irrefutable proof that homosexuality is Genetic, the environmental factors need to be weighed in regards to rearing children..extending Marriage rights to Gays may allow them to negatively impact the natural development of children.

I believe that the extension of marriage rights to gays is simply another other assault by Liberals on the Christian principles on which our country was founded..Liberals seem to despise anything Christian, It is understandable when you adhere to an ideology that allows you to be the final judge on what is moral and just....who needs God?

Here's the question you all say it is " wrong" to not allow gays to be married, what is the wrongness based on?
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 242
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/12/2012 7:13:20 AM

How did "God" settle the issue of marriage?One man one woman....

God is a character in a book and nothing more, thus provides nothing to the question.




How does allowing gays to marry "undermine marriage and/or the family"?

It doesn't, unless you have a bad case of the derp and do not understand the science.




I believe that the extension of marriage rights to gays is simply another other assault by Liberals on the Christian principles on which our country was founded..

The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense founded on the Christian religion
by Jim Walker
http://nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm

The Christian Nation Myth
Farrell Till
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/myth.html

etc, etc, etc.....




...Liberals seem to despise anything Christian, It is understandable when you adhere to an ideology that allows you to be the final judge on what is moral and just....who needs God?

Based on my experience people need god when they want to justify doing something that is wrong.




Here's the question you all say it is " wrong" to not allow gays to be married, what is the wrongness based on?

Basic human rights.

Failure to understand that, is just that, a failure to understand.
 unYOUsual
Joined: 8/11/2011
Msg: 243
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/12/2012 8:14:20 AM
Way to post a bunch of stuff that really says nothing....."Basic Human rights" ...who defines what basic human rights are? You?
Just for fun, I Read the Universal declaration of Human rights..don't see anywhere where it says gays have the right to marry.."Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution" No mention of Homosexuality in there...nationality, race, and religion yes, Homosexuality no...

"The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State."
So if a State decides to limit marriage to the natural fundamental group unit as defined for centuries as husband and wife and children how is anyone's "Right" being denied...


You believe, You think, You wish, etc..that Gays had the "Right" to Marriage..this it the basis of your argument....
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 244
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NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/12/2012 9:45:40 AM
If same-sex marriage should be legal, why not incestuous same-sex marriage? Say a divorced man wants to marry his 14-year-old son. For some time, father and son have shared a love which is a little--unusual.

Let's also say the ex-wife used to join in their activities and is just fine with this unorthodox marriage. And the state they live in allows marriage at 14 with the consent of both parents.

Would anyone but a religious bigot be so hard-hearted as to stand in the way of such a true love? Who is anyone, to make moral judgments about other people? For that matter, why shouldn't the boy's 16-year old sister join them in wedded bliss, if they all agree?
 Viper1E
Joined: 11/30/2011
Msg: 245
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/12/2012 11:21:42 AM
This is moronic. How's this for an answer. For the same reason we don't allow incestuous opposite-sex marriage. Did that really have to be spelled out for you? Or do you just like posting stupid arguments?


NOT TRUE! The only reason I've seen to date, (lame as it may be) for banning incest is the "p!ss in the gene pool argument." The kids will pop out with two heads and four feet etc..

This would not be an issue if Mom wanted to marry her little girl anymore than it would be with a normal (?) homosexual marriage.

Care to try again? After all, "Love is love", and no one loves you more than your mother..


Or is some love just a little more "equal" than other love?
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 246
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/12/2012 12:55:33 PM
Every time I've dipped into this thread it seems that those opposed to gay marriage have tried to make it about something else - polygamy or now incest.

I think that would indicate that they've pretty much given up. I am surprised I haven't seen anyone take up Rick "Man on Dog" Santorum's argument yet though. Come on, if you're going to try to derail it into something else, bring beastiality into it.
 Bladesmith81801
Joined: 10/30/2010
Msg: 247
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/12/2012 12:59:35 PM
How did "God" settle the issue of marriage?One man one woman....



Really? How many wives did Moses have again?


the environmental factors need to be weighed in regards to rearing children..extending Marriage rights to Gays may allow them to negatively impact the natural development of children.


Straight parents are having LOTS of gay kids. Shouldn't you worry about what the straight are doing "wrong" first?

 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 248
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/12/2012 2:23:38 PM
Every time I've dipped into this thread it seems that those opposed to gay marriage have tried to make it about something else - polygamy or now incest.

It really should be obvious, as it seems to be to you... They simply CAN'T answer the 'political question' without destroying their own argument... So, once again, they deflect to issues which really have no bearing on the matter... they attempt to appeal to the ignorance of others (really, they are just appealling to the ignorance of their own 'camp')... The objections are for no other purpose than getting their own 'camp' to yell "rah, rah" as loudly as possible... They know that the deflections will do nothing to convince anyone else, the only goal is to TRY to sound like the biggest 'camp' in the campground even though they really are just the minority...

NOT TRUE! The only reason I've seen to date, (lame as it may be) for banning incest is the "p!ss in the gene pool argument." The kids will pop out with two heads and four feet etc..

Then you really haven't been paying attention (not that anyone is surprised)... "pissing in the gene pool" is really the least of the arguments against, it just sounds REALLY scary to the ignorant so it gets used a lot... The issue is actually one of consent and its relation to the natural power inequities inherent to parent/child-sibling/sibling relationships...

Fosters an environment that encourages gay lifestyle..

Oh, so 'gay ligfestyle' itself is somehow evil and inherently damaging... the children raised in that household will be turned into evil, malignant creatures if exposed to the 'gay lifestyle' as normative in any way... I see... How VERY homophobic and bigoted of you...

What if someone got a brain?

Wishful thinking... isn't likely to happen in our life...

Can you give ONE logical argument against gays marrying that doesn't rely on religion or your own idiotic comparisons to incest, bestiality and necrophilia?

See answer immediately above...
 unYOUsual
Joined: 8/11/2011
Msg: 249
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/12/2012 2:38:59 PM
ok lets try this again...why should gays be allowed to marry? you all blast us for are reasons against gay marriage.....while offering little more than its not fair....you all talk about the right to marry..where is it stated anywhere that gays should have the right to marry? because you think so? is that all you have?
.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 250
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/12/2012 2:44:09 PM
Um, it actually has to do with the "Equal Protection" thingy in the Constitution. The law isn't allowed to discriminate without cause.
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