Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 246
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriagePage 11 of 13    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13)
Every time I've dipped into this thread it seems that those opposed to gay marriage have tried to make it about something else - polygamy or now incest.

I think that would indicate that they've pretty much given up. I am surprised I haven't seen anyone take up Rick "Man on Dog" Santorum's argument yet though. Come on, if you're going to try to derail it into something else, bring beastiality into it.
 Bladesmith81801
Joined: 10/30/2010
Msg: 247
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/12/2012 12:59:35 PM
How did "God" settle the issue of marriage?One man one woman....



Really? How many wives did Moses have again?


the environmental factors need to be weighed in regards to rearing children..extending Marriage rights to Gays may allow them to negatively impact the natural development of children.


Straight parents are having LOTS of gay kids. Shouldn't you worry about what the straight are doing "wrong" first?

 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 248
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/12/2012 2:23:38 PM
Every time I've dipped into this thread it seems that those opposed to gay marriage have tried to make it about something else - polygamy or now incest.

It really should be obvious, as it seems to be to you... They simply CAN'T answer the 'political question' without destroying their own argument... So, once again, they deflect to issues which really have no bearing on the matter... they attempt to appeal to the ignorance of others (really, they are just appealling to the ignorance of their own 'camp')... The objections are for no other purpose than getting their own 'camp' to yell "rah, rah" as loudly as possible... They know that the deflections will do nothing to convince anyone else, the only goal is to TRY to sound like the biggest 'camp' in the campground even though they really are just the minority...

NOT TRUE! The only reason I've seen to date, (lame as it may be) for banning incest is the "p!ss in the gene pool argument." The kids will pop out with two heads and four feet etc..

Then you really haven't been paying attention (not that anyone is surprised)... "pissing in the gene pool" is really the least of the arguments against, it just sounds REALLY scary to the ignorant so it gets used a lot... The issue is actually one of consent and its relation to the natural power inequities inherent to parent/child-sibling/sibling relationships...

Fosters an environment that encourages gay lifestyle..

Oh, so 'gay ligfestyle' itself is somehow evil and inherently damaging... the children raised in that household will be turned into evil, malignant creatures if exposed to the 'gay lifestyle' as normative in any way... I see... How VERY homophobic and bigoted of you...

What if someone got a brain?

Wishful thinking... isn't likely to happen in our life...

Can you give ONE logical argument against gays marrying that doesn't rely on religion or your own idiotic comparisons to incest, bestiality and necrophilia?

See answer immediately above...
 unYOUsual
Joined: 8/11/2011
Msg: 249
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/12/2012 2:38:59 PM
ok lets try this again...why should gays be allowed to marry? you all blast us for are reasons against gay marriage.....while offering little more than its not fair....you all talk about the right to marry..where is it stated anywhere that gays should have the right to marry? because you think so? is that all you have?
.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 250
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/12/2012 2:44:09 PM
Um, it actually has to do with the "Equal Protection" thingy in the Constitution. The law isn't allowed to discriminate without cause.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 251
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/12/2012 2:57:37 PM

ok lets try this again...why should gays be allowed to marry? you all blast us for are reasons against gay marriage.....while offering little more than its not fair....

So you agree that it is not fair.

Then I have to ask, why do you hate freedom so much?
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 252
view profile
History
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/12/2012 3:02:40 PM
What part of children can't give consent did you not understand?


I made clear in my hypothetical that both parents consented. Some states allow children, sometimes as young as 14, to marry if both parents consent.


or your own idiotic comparisons to incest, bestiality and necrophilia?


Maybe you're letting anger confuse your thinking again. I've never mentioned anything about necrophilia. And the only times I've mentioned bestiality, it wasn't in the context of marriage.

It's easy to assert that my point about incestuous marriage is "nonsense" or "idiotic." It's not nearly so easy to explain WHY it is. If there is some basis other than the belief incestuous same-sex marriage is immoral and unacceptable for distinguishing it from ordinary, garden-variety same-sex marriage, you haven't explained what it is.

And if moral revulsion's not a valid reason to oppose the one, how is it a valid reason to oppose the other? I hope you're not bigoted against homosexuals who want to marry each other, just because they happen to be close blood relatives. Why should people not be able to express their true love, just because of an accident of birth? Isn't this all about being non-judgmental and tolerant?


Um, it actually has to do with the "Equal Protection" thingy in the Constitution.


Maybe. But it has much more to do with the other big part of the 14th Amendment--the substantive form of due process. If the Supreme Court ever makes states allow same-sex marriage, it gave a preview of the reasoning it would use some years ago in Lawrence v. Texas, a decision which invalidated a state sodomy law. Justice O'Connor wrote a concurrence in which she said the case should have been decided on equal protection grounds, but none of the other eight justices went along with her.

I realize most people here despise the Constitution, so I won't irk them by laying out the due process reasoning here. I know all this hard thinking must be irritating to those who aren't used to it. But anyone with the intellectual curiosity can find a very good step-by-step analysis of the majority's somewhat bizarre reasoning in Justice Scalia's dissent.

Edit below: VVVVV


about the issue of 'conflict of interest' that arises when the individual giving consent on behalf of another is also the beneficiary of that consent


No problem. Easy enough for the state to amend the statute to require the consent of only one parent, require a consultation with a counselor, etc. We're assuming this is not a state full of conservative bigots. Can't have any of that old conflict of interest stuff standing in the way of true love.


after all, that IS what "basic rights" are all about...


And just what is the source of these "basic rights," other than your imagination?
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 253
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/12/2012 3:03:43 PM

ok lets try this again...why should gays be allowed to marry?

Because marriage and family are fundamental rights...

Your 'non-starter' of an argument, that the UDHR doesn't SPECIFICALLY mention 'homosexuality is just that... a 'non-starter'... The UDHR ALSO does not SPECIFICALLY preclude 'same-sex' marriage... it does not even define marriage as SPECIFICALLY "between one man and one woman"... It merely states that "men and women" have equal rights to marry... It says NOT ONE WORD about 'men must marry women only" or "women must marry men only"...

while offering little more than its not fair....

Well... to be perfectly honest... no other argument is really necessary... after all, that IS what "basic rights" are all about...
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 254
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/12/2012 3:09:27 PM
Some states allow children, sometimes as young as 14, to marry if both parents consent.

And you know full well... or at least you SHOULD if you are as knowledgable about law as you claim to be (a point which very few here are actually convinced is a matter of fact)... about the issue of 'conflict of interest' that arises when the individual giving consent on behalf of another is also the beneficiary of that consent...

It's not nearly so easy to explain WHY it is.

See above and my post previous on that point...
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 255
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/12/2012 4:24:27 PM


about the issue of 'conflict of interest' that arises when the individual giving consent on behalf of another is also the beneficiary of that consent

No problem. Easy enough for the state to amend the statute to require the consent of only one parent, require a consultation with a counselor, etc. We're assuming this is not a state full of conservative bigots. Can't have any of that old conflict of interest stuff standing in the way of true love.


I see... So, if same-sex marriage were fully recognized, we COULD change other laws which have nothing to do with discrimination in order to make your presently invalid objection valid... after the fact...





What a maroon.

B. Bunny
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 256
view profile
History
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/12/2012 5:30:51 PM
Thought I'd point out the legal issue regarding this statement, Match. I know you know the fundamental problem with this comment:


Skoochie, The thing is that no constitutional amendment would be needed. Why go through all that difficult process when five judges can give you the same results with the stroke of a pen? With some exceptions, the Court used to be a lot more reluctant to do that.

So, the progressives of the WWI era had to do it the hard way--the way it was supposed to be--by fighting for years to build support for amendments creating prohibition or full voting rights for women. The Constitution was *designed* to be hard to change--that's why it's a constitution, and not just a flexible set of guidelines.

The way the Supreme Court has treated some of these due process questions in recent years is to find that the fact some states have changed their view means the national consensus about what's basically fair and unfair has evolved. That then becomes the justification for finding that all the states who haven't yet changed must now fall in line.

The Court is not a legislature. A lot of people think it should hold off and let each state debate the issue, and change its laws if the majority there wants to. It's one thing to wait until 45 states have changed their view on some due process issue, and only then take a case and hold that the other five have to meet the new standard. That's at least somewhat legitimate.

It's something else again, when as soon as the state count reaches 25, or 20, or even less, five judges say, "The laws you majorities in all these other states support are unfair--you have to allow X, no matter how many of you dislike it, or how much." That's second-guessing all those voters and their representatives in state legislatures, and not for a very solid reason. In substantive due process cases, the Court is deciding, more or less arbitrarily, that what a certain law does deprives people of life, liberty, or property (usually liberty to do something) to a degree that's basically unfair.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 257
view profile
History
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/12/2012 10:05:00 PM
Match,
Name one time five judges demonstrated the ability to force all the states to enact a law made by less than 3/4 of the states. The Court interprets the Constitution. They don't make amendments. They would be disgracing themselves by not adhering to Article Five.


You must be kidding. Roe is the obvious example, but there are others. Casey. Lawrence. Boumediene. Garcia v. San Antonio MTA. Romer v. Evans. Katzenbach v. McClung. Gonzalez v. Raich. Massachusetts v. EPA. I could come up with lots more. Supreme Court decisions have become a way of amending the Constitution through the back door. No amendment needed--just get five justices who will interpret the Constitution in a way that makes their personal view the law throughout the U.S. The Court's already tarnished its reputation over the past fifty years by acting, way too often, like Article V means nothing.

What's ironic is that some of the worst of these decisions rely on "substantive due process" doctrine. (So did 1857's Dred Scott, maybe the worst decision the Court's ever made.) The big problem with SDP is that it walks on the separation of powers, which is an integral feature of the Constitution and one of the main defenses of our freedoms. SDP involves the judicial branch in second-guessing legislatures--"Yes, you voted for this law, but we think what it does is basically unfair; so out it goes."

The Court followed SDP from 1904-1937, mostly to strike down worker protection laws as unfair restraints on the personal "liberty of contract"--a person's fundamental right, as the Court saw it, to sell his labor. That's fundamental to capitalism. It did so much of this, invalidating more than two hundred laws, that these years are sometimes called the "Substantive Due Process Era."

Then, for three decades, if the Court mentioned SDP, it was to apologize for those bad old days, to say it was wrong to act like a super-legislature, and to make clear it had abandoned all that. But it just couldn't lay off SDP. It made its big reappearance in 1973, in Roe v. Wade. SDP also figures in Lawrence v. Texas, the decision that lays the foundation for an eventual decision on same-sex marriage.
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 258
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/13/2012 4:31:40 AM

I made clear in my hypothetical that both parents consented. Some states allow children, sometimes as young as 14, to marry if both parents consent.


In cases where a child is below the age of consent, usually age 16, a parent cannot grant consent, legally, for the child to have sex...therefore, the states have decided that children, usually below the age of 16, cannot give consent nor can parents give consent for a child to have underage sex...and if there's a large difference between ages of the child and the person having sex with the underage child. usually 4 years or more of age difference, then it is called rape...regardless of whether they are married or not. Of course, there's a state or two that allows a child at age 14 to marry, disregarding the issue's surrounding statutory rape...

It's that old power and control issue that's not present in a gay relationship of two adults over the age of consent.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 259
view profile
History
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/13/2012 10:02:23 AM
Pretty damned desperate to try to obfuscate an issue of equal rights with bestiality, child rape, and other non-consensual crimes. I still have not heard a compelling case for what same sex marriage would do to negatively affect the homophobes here. Nor have we heard a compelling case for why this equality is different that equal rights for women, minorities, and miscegention. In those cases, the laws were malleable enough to keep up to changing societal mores. The courts, Supreme included, changed as we moved from slavery, barbarism, misogyny, bigotry and apartheid.

Lawyers, judges included, quite often interpret and manipulate laws and rights to an end. The Supreme Court judges on down, are prone to activism, partisanship and personal interpretation of laws to suit their personal value systems. This is why there is so much contention in nominating federal and Supreme Court Judges. The partisans want THEIR boys and girls up there, striking down laws from the OTHER side.
http://washingtonindependent.com/350/judicial-partisanship-awards

Governor Gregoire presented a compelling case as to her change of heart on the matter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJu6MA_wF7o&feature=player_embedded#!

Even the Girl Scouts have more courage to face reality than some posters here.
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/thanks-girl-scouts-this-year-im-eating-thin-mints-for-equal-rights/
 unYOUsual
Joined: 8/11/2011
Msg: 260
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/14/2012 4:40:17 PM
no they shouldnt except in cases where they did not engage in consentual intercourse....equating gays having the right to marry to civil rights issues diminishes the civil rights movement...its pretty much about gays feeling entitled to benefits associated with marriage..safe bet that most gays are liberals with entitlement mentality deeply ingrained in their psyches...
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 261
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/14/2012 4:57:38 PM

....equating gays having the right to marry to civil rights issues diminishes the civil rights movement...

How so?




...its pretty much about gays feeling entitled to benefits associated with marriage..safe bet that most gays are liberals with entitlement mentality deeply ingrained in their psyches...

Yeah how dare they expect to be treated equally.

They should just marry opposite sex partners and troll airport bathroom for a quick fix like those upstanding bootstrapy conservatives.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 262
view profile
History
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/15/2012 2:00:57 AM

...its pretty much about gays feeling entitled to benefits associated with marriage..safe bet that most gays are liberals with entitlement mentality deeply ingrained in their psyches...


So now equality in the US is equated with "entitlement"? And ya wonder why most hispanics, blacks, inter-racial couples and gays vote against the most bigoted party and candidates in the US. How did their equality diminish yours?
 unYOUsual
Joined: 8/11/2011
Msg: 263
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/16/2012 4:07:54 AM
Should have known better to argue morality with a group of people who rationalize murdering babies as a matter of a mothers "Choice"...
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 264
view profile
History
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/16/2012 5:35:08 AM

Should have known better to argue morality with a group of people who rationalize murdering babies as a matter of a mothers "Choice"...
Should know better than to argue morality with anyone who supports the purchasing of other human beings so they can be tortured ... who supports the murdering of babies, mothers, fathers, aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews ....... in the name of stealing another sovereign nation's oil/lithium. I suppose those people didn't have a right to live either? Only the "invaders" have a right to live and do as they please, take what they want ...

If someone dares to be different without breaking criminal law, they just aren't allowed the same rights as others ... right? I think I get it ... some are allowed anything they want and are powerful enough to take ... and others just have to suck it up and live without?
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 265
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/16/2012 6:15:37 PM
Meanwhile on U-Tube.

Sh*t Homophobic People Say

Uploaded by lambdalegal on Jan 13, 2012

Sh*t Homophobic People Say: no spoofing necessary, 100% real commentary by antigay public figures

NSFW Language.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SVEmHcz-SBs
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 266
view profile
History
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/16/2012 8:24:21 PM

as a citizen of a free country, do you think women have the right/freedom to choose for themselves.


As I've said before, I'd like to see California law impose only limited restrictions on abortion--parental notification for minor females younger than a certain age, maybe a brief waiting period and/or counseling--that kind of thing.

But I support the right of each state to restrict abortion completely, partially, or not at all, as the majority there sees fit. Abortion never should have been made a constitutional issue in the first place.

I'm pretty much neutral on same-sex marriage. I'm not wild about the idea, but I'm not strongly opposed to it, either. What I AM strongly opposed to is any Supreme Court decision forcing it on all the states.

The Court's only possible basis for doing that would be that any state marriage law which denied homosexuals the right to marry each other could not serve any conceivable government interest. If so, any such law would be arbitrary, and arbitrary state laws violate the substantive form of 14th Amendment due process.

That's a variation on the maneuver the Court pulled in Roe 39 years ago. In that case, it said state laws which restricted abortion too far deprived people of liberty--the freedom to have or perform abortions--without due process. In other words, a majority of the Court said what these laws did, in its opinion, was basically unfair.

If and when the Court decided same-sex marriage, it would *not* be saying that state laws which didn't allow it unfairly deprived people of any liberty the Constitution guarantees. The Court has never even implied that the Constitution protects a right to gay marriage--it knows very well it does not.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 267
view profile
History
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/17/2012 7:50:46 AM
Next thing you know, gay people will be wanting the right to vote, pay taxes, serve in the military, eat in the same restaurants, use the same drinking fountains, same bathrooms and sit in front of the bus. Slippery slope indeed. The Fed should never interfere with our rights to discriminate indiscriminately.
 unYOUsual
Joined: 8/11/2011
Msg: 268
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/17/2012 8:26:58 AM
wow..the last post explains a lot....they already can....the assault on christian values continues...homosexuality is abnormal...homosexuals are abnormal....they have individual rights already..plus additional protection based on their abnormality..marriage is a tool being utilized to force society to legitmize their abherrant lifestyle
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 269
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/17/2012 9:07:07 AM

...the assault on christian values continues...

It is about time someone stood up for those poor oppressed christians.




homosexuality is abnormal...homosexuals are abnormal....they have individual rights already..plus additional protection based on their abnormality..

It is no more abnormal that being bald, your failure to understand this is just that, a failure to understand.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 270
NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage
Posted: 1/17/2012 9:18:35 AM

marriage is a tool being utilized to force society to legitmize their abherrant lifestyle..

Yet gay parents do a better job at raising kids that straight ones.

Gay Parents Better Than Straight Parents? What Research Says

By: Stephanie Pappas, LiveScience Senior Writer
Published: 01/16/2012 08:19 AM EST on LiveScience

Gay marriage, and especially gay parenting, has been in the cross hairs in recent days.

On Jan. 6, Republican presidential hopeful Rick Santorum told a New Hampshire audience that children are better off with a father in prison than being raised in a home with lesbian parents and no father at all. And last Monday (Jan. 9), Pope Benedict called gay marriage a threat "to the future of humanity itself," citing the need for children to have heterosexual homes.

But research on families headed by gays and lesbians doesn't back up these dire assertions. In fact, in some ways, gay parents may bring talents to the table that straight parents don't.

Gay parents "tend to be more motivated, more committed than heterosexual parents on average, because they chose to be parents," said Abbie Goldberg, a psychologist at Clark University in Massachusetts who researches gay and lesbian parenting. Gays and lesbians rarely become parents by accident, compared with an almost 50 percent accidental pregnancy rate among heterosexuals, Goldberg said. "That translates to greater commitment on average and more involvement."

And while research indicates that kids of gay parents show few differences in achievement, mental health, social functioning and other measures, these kids may have the advantage of open-mindedness, tolerance and role models for equitable relationships, according to some research. Not only that, but gays and lesbians are likely to provide homes for difficult-to-place children in the foster system, studies show. (Of course, this isn't to say that heterosexual parents can't bring these same qualities to the parenting table.


Adopting the neediest

Gay adoption recently caused controversy in Illinois, where Catholic Charities adoption services decided in November to cease offering services because the state refused funding unless the groups agreed not to discriminate against gays and lesbians. Rather than comply, Catholic Charities closed up shop.

Catholic opposition aside, research suggests that gay and lesbian parents are actually a powerful resource for kids in need of adoption. According to a 2007 report by the Williams Institute and the Urban Institute, 65,000 kids were living with adoptive gay parents between 2000 and 2002, with another 14,000 in foster homes headed by gays and lesbians. (There are currently more than 100,000 kids in foster care in the U.S.)

An October 2011 report by Evan B. Donaldson Adoption Institute found that, of gay and lesbian adoptions at more than 300 agencies, 10 percent of the kids placed were older than 6 — typically a very difficult age to adopt out. About 25 percent were older than 3. Sixty percent of gay and lesbian couples adopted across races, which is important given that minority children in the foster system tend to linger. More than half of the kids adopted by gays and lesbians had special needs.

The report didn't compare the adoption preferences of gay couples directly with those of heterosexual couples, said author David Brodzinsky, research director at the Institute and co-editor of "Adoption By Lesbians and Gay Men: A New Dimension of Family Diversity" (Oxford University Press, 2011). But research suggests that gays and lesbians are more likely than heterosexuals to adopt older, special-needs and minority children, he said. Part of that could be their own preferences, and part could be because of discrimination by adoption agencies that puts more difficult children with what caseworkers see as "less desirable" parents.

No matter how you slice it, Brodzinsky told LiveScience, gays and lesbians are highly interested in adoption as a group. The 2007 report by the Urban Institute also found that more than half of gay men and 41 percent of lesbians in the U.S. would like to adopt. That adds up to an estimated 2 million gay people who are interested in adoption. It's a huge reservoir of potential parents who could get kids out of the instability of the foster system, Brodzinsky said.

"When you think about the 114,000 children who are freed for adoption who continue to live in foster care and who are not being readily adopted, the goal is to increase the pool of available, interested and well-trained individuals to parent these children," Brodzinsky said.

In addition, Brodzinsky said, there's evidence to suggest that gays and lesbians are especially accepting of open adoptions, where the child retains some contact with his or her birth parents. And the statistics bear out that birth parents often have no problem with their kids being raised by same-sex couples, he added.

"Interestingly, we find that a small percentage, but enough to be noteworthy, [of birth mothers] make a conscious decision to place with gay men, so they can be the only mother in their child's life," Brodzinsky said.


Good parenting

Research has shown that the kids of same-sex couples — both adopted and biological kids — fare no worse than the kids of straight couples on mental health, social functioning, school performance and a variety of other life-success measures.

In a 2010 review of virtually every study on gay parenting, New York University sociologist Judith Stacey and University of Southern California sociologist Tim Biblarz found no differences between children raised in homes with two heterosexual parents and children raised with lesbian parents.

"There's no doubt whatsoever from the research that children with two lesbian parents are growing up to be just as well-adjusted and successful" as children with a male and a female parent," Stacey told LiveScience.

There is very little research on the children of gay men, so Stacey and Biblarz couldn't draw conclusions on those families. But Stacey suspects that gay men "will be the best parents on average," she said.

That's a speculation, she said, but if lesbian parents have to really plan to have a child, it's even harder for gay men. Those who decide to do it are thus likely to be extremely committed, Stacey said. Gay men may also experience fewer parenting conflicts, she added. Most lesbians use donor sperm to have a child, so one mother is biological and the other is not, which could create conflict because one mother may feel closer to the kid.

"With gay men, you don't have that factor," she said. "Neither of them gets pregnant, neither of them breast-feeds, so you don't have that asymmetry built into the relationship."

The bottom line, Stacey said, is that people who say children need both a father and a mother in the home are misrepresenting the research, most of which compares children of single parents to children of married couples. Two good parents are better than one good parent, Stacey said, but one good parent is better than two bad parents. And gender seems to make no difference. While you do find broad differences between how men and women parent on average, she said, there is much more diversity within the genders than between them.

"Two heterosexual parents of the same educational background, class, race and religion are more like each other in the way they parent than one is like all other women and one is like all other men," she said. [6 Gender Myths Busted]


Nurturing tolerance

In fact, the only consistent places you find differences between how kids of gay parents and kids of straight parents turn out are in issues of tolerance and open-mindedness, according to Goldberg. In a paper published in 2007 in the American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, Goldberg conducted in-depth interviews with 46 adults with at least one gay parent. Twenty-eight of them spontaneously offered that they felt more open-minded and empathetic than people not raised in their situation.

"These individuals feel like their perspectives on family, on gender, on sexuality have largely been enhanced by growing up with gay parents," Goldberg said.

One 33-year-old man with a lesbian mother told Goldberg, "I feel I'm a more open, well-rounded person for having been raised in a nontraditional family, and I think those that know me would agree. My mom opened me up to the positive impact of differences in people."

Children of gay parents also reported feeling less stymied by gender stereotypes than they would have been if raised in straight households. That's likely because gays and lesbians tend to have more egalitarian relationships than straight couples, Goldberg said. They're also less wedded to rigid gender stereotypes themselves.

"Men and women felt like they were free to pursue a wide range of interests," Goldberg said. "Nobody was telling them, 'Oh, you can't do that, that's a boy thing,' or 'That's a girl thing.'"


Same-sex acceptance

If same-sex marriage does disadvantage kids in any way, it has nothing to do with their parent's gender and everything to do with society's reaction toward the families, said Indiana University sociologist Brian Powell, the author of "Counted Out: Same-Sex Relations and Americans' Definitions of Family" (Russell Sage Foundation, 2010).

"Imagine being a child living in a state with two parents in which, legally, only one parent is allowed to be their parent," Powell told LiveScience. "In that situation, the family is not seen as authentic or real by others. That would be the disadvantage."

In her research, Goldberg has found that many children of gay and lesbian parents say that more acceptance of gay and lesbian families, not less, would help solve this problem.

In a study published online Jan. 11, 2012, in the Journal of Marriage and Family, Goldberg interviewed another group of 49 teenagers and young adults with gay parents and found that not one of them rejected the right of gays and lesbians to marry. Most cited legal benefits as well as social acceptance.

"I was just thinking about this with a couple of friends and just was in tears thinking about how different my childhood might have been had same-sex marriage been legalized 25 years ago," a 23-year-old man raised by a lesbian couple told Goldberg. "The cultural, legal status of same-sex couples impacts the family narratives of same-sex families — how we see ourselves in relation to the larger culture, whether we see ourselves as accepted or outsiders."


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/16/gay-parents-better-than-straights_n_1208659.html
Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > NY becomes 6th state to legalize gay marriage