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 Quello79
Joined: 7/18/2010
Msg: 161
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On the Existence of God and Other Sundry MattersPage 4 of 30    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30)
@Alan
I have not ignored or brushed aside your apparent copy and pasted contradictions. Ok, if you're too lazy to look up the answers, I'll just copy and paste them.

Apparent contradiction:
God dwells in chosen temples
2 Chron 7:12,16
God dwells not in temples
Acts 7:48

Answer:
"I fail to see the contradiction here. The claim that "my eyes and heart will always be there" appears to mean nothing more to me than the fact that the LORD would pay special attention to the temple and have a special affinity for it; the LORD would reveal Himself to His people through the temple. Stephen's speech in Acts merely highlights the transcendence of God. Put simply, if you put these together you arrive at the following truth - God is transcendent, yet He reveals Himself where He will."

Apparent contradiction:
God is seen and heard
Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
Ex 24:9-11
God is invisible and cannot be heard
John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16

Answer:
"These "contradictions" are easily resolved if one accepts the Trinitarian view of God. Allow me to repost a reply which addressed a similar point, and in doing so, resolves this contradiction....

In a previous post, someone attempts to discredit the deity of Christ by appealing to John 1

"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." (KJV)

He notes:
"If no man has seen God, then logically Jesus was not God, since there is no secular record of an outbreak of sightlessness in Judea in Jesus' time".

How shall the Christian respond? Well, let's consider the statement that "No man hath seen God." Consider the following verses from the Old Testament (OT):
Sarai says "You are the God who sees me," for she said,
"I have now seen the One who sees me" (Gen 16:13)

"So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared." (Gen 32:30)

"Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up and saw the God of Israel." (Ex 24: 9-10)

"they saw God" (Ex 24:11)

"We have seen God!" (Judges 13:22) Now while this person's logic seems to rule out that Jesus was God, it also means that the Bible contains a very significant contradiction. If no one has seen God, how is it that Sarai, Jacob, Moses et al, and Monoah and his wife are said to have seen God?

Actually, this is a problem only for those who deny the deity of Christ while claiming to follow the teachings of the Bible. Let's look again at John 1

"No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only (or Only Begotten), who is at the Father's side, has made him known."

I think it is clear that John is speaking of the Father as the one who has not been seen. To paraphrase it, "No one has ever seen God, but the Son, who is at His side, has made Him known". This interpretation not only seems to follow naturally from this verse, but is also quite consistent with the Logos doctrine taught in John 1. Recall, it is the Logos who mediates between God and man, and who reveals God to man. Jesus would later say, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father." Prior to the Incarnation of the Son, no one had seen the Father, for it is through the Son that the Father is revealed.
So for the Trinitarian, there is no Bible contradiction. No one ever saw God the Father, and what Sarai, Jacob, Moses, etc saw was God the Son. This can be seen from many perspectives, but let's simply consider one from Isaiah 6. Isaiah "saw the Lord" (v 1). Seraphs were praising the "Lord Almighty" (v 3). Isaiah is overwhelmed and responds, "Woe to me, I am ruined. For I am a man of unclean lips [this rules him out as the servant in Isaiah 53], and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty" (v 5). Later, we read:

"Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" (vs. 8).

Again, the plurality of God is implied. Isaiah asks God to send him, and then God gave him a message to preach.
Now it's time to jump to John 12:37-41. John claims that the peoples failure to believe in Jesus was a fulfillment of these teachings Isaiah received from the Lord in Isaiah 6. Then note verse 41.

"Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him".

Here is a clear example where John equates Jesus with the Lord Almighty seen by Isaiah! This all fits together beautifully. Isaiah sees the Lord Almighty, yet he sees Jesus' glory. Jesus speaks as a plural being (who will go for US). It is the Son who is seen, not the Father.
Thus, John 1:18 does not mean that Jesus was not God, it only means He is not the Father. This verse presents no problems for the Trinitarian, and in fact, when studied, serves as a great launching point for finding Christ in the OT. Prior to the Logos dwelling amongst us and revealing the Father to us, no one had seen the Father. But because of the Incarnation, we can now cry, "Abba, Father" (Romans 8:15) and "Our Father who art in heaven"! Those who see the Son can see the Father. "


Apparent contradiciton:
God is tired and rests
Ex 31:17
God is never tired and never rests
Is 40:28

Answer:
"The term "rested and was refreshed' is simply a vivid Oriental way of saying that God ceased from the work of creation and took delight in surveying the work."


Aparrent contradiction:
God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all
things
Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8

Answer:
"Let's also add the next verse to strengthen the critics case: "But the LORD God called to the man, "Where are you?"
How could one hide from God? Why does God need to ask this question?

First, what Adam and Eve could have hid from is merely the visible and special manifestation of the Lord. As for God's seeming ignorance, anyone with children can recognize the utility of such questions. If a child is known to have broken a lamp, it is better to question the child than to simply accuse her. The former approach enables the child to take an active role in her wrong-doing, and allows for her to apologize. Note that God asked several questions:

"Where are you?....Who told you that you were naked?....Have you eaten of the fruit of the tree?"

Note the response. Instead of begging for mercy and confessing their sins, both the man and woman justified themselves and sought to put the blame on another. So typically human! By asking these questions, God enabled the man and woman to either freely repent or to firmly establish their sinfulness. Thus, while the critic thinks these are questions demonstrating ignorance, such an interpretation can be easily dismissed in light of the above considerations. What of the others?
"But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that men were building." [Gen 11:5]

"The the LORD said, 'The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sins so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know." [Gen 18:20-21] These look like common human notions of someone coming down to check out what is going on. And perhaps, that's how the writer of these accounts understood God. But perhaps there is also another layer to the account. Obviously, it teaches God's transcendence. But it also demonstrates God's interest. He is not an aloof sky-god. And he doesn't watch from afar. He gets right down into human history.

But there is more. Maimonides once noted that just as the word 'ascend', when applied to the mind, implies noble and elevated objects, the word 'descend' implies turning one's mind to things of lowly and unworthy character. Thus, God is not "coming down" in a physical sense, but in a "mental" sense, where he turns his attention to the sinful activity of men and invokes judgment. Of course, it is hard to describe God in human language, but I think the above account is not unreasonable.

Since these supposed contradictions depend on a particular interpretation which is (or at the very least may be) in error, no contradiction has been established."

More answers can be found here:
http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/bible.htm#2

Jonah and the whale doesn't occur in the Bible? Eh?

You want proof of God? Go seek the power of the Holy Spirit. Watch the documentary called A Haunting that was shown on the Discovery channel which reinacts hauntings and converts atheists into Christians after having to ask a Christian pastor/vicar etc for exorcisms - that worked.
Watch the testimony of Ian McCormack on youtube - which is about an atheist who was stung several times by the world's deadliest jellyfish, he died, saw Hell, Heaven and God, came back a live in the morgue and is now a Christian and travels the world evangelising with his testimony.
And there's Don Piper's 90 minutes in Heaven testimony.

Just go to a good church that has a strong presence of the Holy Spirit.
 Quello79
Joined: 7/18/2010
Msg: 162
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On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 7/13/2011 3:39:37 AM
@Kardinall Offishall


Quello:





You could say evolution and big bang theory, but nobody knows where the singularity/particle/dirt came from that expanded to become the universe.


You're fallaciously presuming that some aspect of reality must, by necessity, and in principle, have came into being from nothing. This is just an egregious assumption on your part.

You implicitly presume that your so-called god is exempt from an explanation of 'his' existence and that the same reasoning cannot in principle apply to some non-divine/non-godly aspect of reality in and of itself.

To insist such a thing is nothing short of a double standard -- ad hoc special pleading without merit.

If god can exist eternally and without a cause -- a 'ratio essendi', as Leibniz called it -- then so too can reality sans a make-believe anthropomorphic magic wizard.

If you reflect on this -- if you take a time out and think hard about it -- you'll find that this greatly undercuts the rational basis of your theism. (Of course, I'm not assuming you believe in Christianity on any rational basis whatsoever.)


Not so. The universe is based on space, time and matter/energy correct? Because it is based on time, it must have a beginning. Inifinity of time does not exist, there has to be a beginning and an end. I understand this concept and I'm not even a scientist.

So:
"If you reflect on this -- if you take a time out and think hard about it -- you'll find that this greatly undercuts the rational basis of your Atheism"... ;)
 Quello79
Joined: 7/18/2010
Msg: 163
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On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 7/13/2011 3:49:15 AM
@Lyingcheat


Perhaps it was all those ancient deities, like the Egyptian, Roman, or Greek ones, that pre-date the deities currently in vogue?


Actually, the God of the Bible predates any man-made false god of the Egyptians, Romans and Greeks. Since God made these people and is written about way before these nationalities even began (which was after God confused the languages at the Tower of Babel).
Interesting now that Greece and the Roman Empire both dropped their false gods and found the one true God of the Bible. Sadly the Egyptians have adopted another false god with 80-90% of their population being Muslims, they are yet to see the Light.
 Quello79
Joined: 7/18/2010
Msg: 164
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On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 7/13/2011 4:07:53 AM
So because the original book of Genesis is no longer around, it cannot be older than anything written thousands of years later? Illogical.
 Quello79
Joined: 7/18/2010
Msg: 165
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On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 7/13/2011 4:52:03 AM
Well because the original document of Genesis hasn't survived, you assume it didn't exist before the Sumerians came about. Genesis contains history before the different nationalities were created.

Why would you think the sumerians write in their books about the one true God if they were worshipping their false gods? I think it's more likely that they wouldn't.

I don't have the definitive answer as to why God chose the middle-east. I can only give an off-the-top-of-my-head answer without extensive reading. But it makes sense due to it's location in the world. It's between Europe and Asia and close to Africa. And of course God knew the Europeans would then "discover" and settle in the Americas and Australia, spreading the good news to those parts of the world also.
Bear in mind the Bible says the gospel is to be preached to all of the world and that the birth of the world's population was in the middle east (after the global flood) and didn't spread out until the confusion of languages.
 Quello79
Joined: 7/18/2010
Msg: 166
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On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 7/13/2011 5:45:15 AM
Because the Bible is confirmed by history, archaeology, geology, paleontology, biology, cosmology, the Holy Spirit etc.

Of course they'd have similar creation stories as Genesis because it had been passed down through the generations and spread through the different cultures, just like the global flood story has.

God wouldn't make Himself obvious to us all because He wants us to choose to love Him, not be forced. Forced love isn't real love. It's like marrying someone you don't love. - Which is of course what free will is all about.

And you trust carbon dating? There's serious problems with the method that make it unreliable.
The global flood isn't physically impossible and there's plenty of geological evidence.

Well, Satan hates God and he hates us humans because we remind him of God. Because we are made in His likeness (Genesis 1:26). So Satan wants to torture us. God doesn't want any of us to go to Hell. He wants all of us to be with Him in Heaven, but most of us won't make it.

God warned us that the penalty of sin is death. So we can hardly blame God for the flood etc. It is our own doing.
 Quello79
Joined: 7/18/2010
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On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 7/13/2011 6:03:33 AM
Obviously you missed my last paragraph.

Ultimately it was Satan who caused them to be sinners by tricking Eve in the beginning. God just didn't want his creation to be filled with Satan's wicked ways. So the 25million could be credited to Satan. Although the figure of how many he's indirectly killed since then would be far greater.
 Quello79
Joined: 7/18/2010
Msg: 169
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On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 7/13/2011 6:17:53 AM
@Irregulator
Just because you are not aware of the facts, doesn't mean you can lie and attempt to deceit the readers of this forum.

Changing things I've said and asking questions I've already answered :s.
It grows tiresome.
 Quello79
Joined: 7/18/2010
Msg: 170
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On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 7/13/2011 6:30:50 AM
@Alan


Jonah and the whale doesn't occur in the Bible? Eh?


No, it doesn't. The Bible says Jonah was swallowed by a great fish. Fish are not whales.

And bats are NOT birdf, even if the Bible does say they are. The Bible contains numerous errors regarding the animal kingdom.

As to the rest of your post, you've stated there are no contradictions in the Bible. I've posted contradictions that appear in the Bible. Whether those contradictions are mistranslations or misinterpreatations doesn't change the fact that they are contradictions.

Maybe I missed it, but I noticed you stated in an earlier post that you found no fault with any of it. I posted various infractions/sins that the Bible says are to be punished by death & the Bible's condoning of slavery and you didn't make any comments about those....

so it would appear that since you found no fault with any of the Bible you have no problem ( since it's in the Bible) with executing people for minor transgressions or with slavery.

Still waiting for your masses of evidence....


In TODAY'S classification whales aren't fish, that is correct. But it was written thousands of years ago before this current classification of animals came about.

You have not posted any contradictions in the Bible. I copied and pasted debunks if you care to read them.
The Bible doesn't condone slavery at all. That's yet another misconception. The slavery in the Bible is very different to how it is/was in recent times. Learn some history.
Why don't all you guys do what I did and actually find out the answers for your questions and misconceptions yourself instead of trying to use them as arguments against the Bible and Christian faith?
Lazy.
 Inicia
Joined: 12/21/2007
Msg: 171
On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 7/13/2011 7:27:14 AM
I think it is the goddess of Whillendorf the oldest statue of neolithic times and she represents the fertility of earth and she was worshiped by all mankind before language and documentation of patriarchal religion
 Quello79
Joined: 7/18/2010
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On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 7/13/2011 10:22:59 AM
Concerning slavery in the Bible:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2007/02/02/feedback-bible-slavery

Proof of God?
Demonic possession (well documented, also know of someone in the church who suffered from this)
The Bible is confirmed by many branches of science - as I've already said. (Also well documented)
God's powers still at work today, bringing people back from the dead, healing the sick, protection from rapists (see Ian McCormak, Don Piper among others for bringing the dead back.)
Everything we know is confirmed by the Bible written thousands of years ago. Even this debate is predicted.


@Irregulator
You accused me of lying first without explanation.
 Quello79
Joined: 7/18/2010
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Posted: 7/13/2011 10:27:41 AM
Jesus WAS recorded by a Roman Jewish historian Josephus among others.

http://www.westarkchurchofchrist.org/library/extrabiblical.htm


Why do people on here keep making bold statements as though they think they know everything, but the truth is in the part of knowledge that they do not know?
Perhaps you should change your wording to something like "I do not know of any proof/evidence etc". Instead just saying "there is none".
Just because you are not in possession of the facts, doesn't mean they don't exist.
 Quello79
Joined: 7/18/2010
Msg: 175
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Posted: 7/13/2011 10:40:43 AM
Well to be honest, I'm not that bothered. The leader of the "new Atheism" rabble Richard Dawkins even knows that Jesus existed. So go argue with him and save us all the trouble, he has his own website.

I'm getting ready to go out, some of us have lives outside of the internet. I've left you with plenty to look up for yourselves. So I expect you to be much better learned by the time I get back ;)...
 Quello79
Joined: 7/18/2010
Msg: 176
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On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 7/13/2011 10:55:48 AM
From message 281


The global flood isn't physically impossible and there's plenty of geological evidence.

None


So you basically just call me a liar, wihout backing it up.

And we're all biased. I'm biased towards Christianity and YEC and you're biased towards atheism and evolution.

Why ask me for answers if you want some other kind of opinion? I agree with AIG's stance, so of course I'll quote them. Saves me having to type paragraph after paragraph if it's already written down eh.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 177
On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 7/13/2011 11:31:00 AM

the heavenly spirits look down on pettyness and those that
think that their view of an unknown ( to them ) holds water
a safe bet to believe no loss
tho if u r wrong . . . . . what hav u to lose


Also known as Pascal's wager.

In other words, if you don't believe because you have legitimate reasons to believe, then a belief based on hedging ones bets is acceptable.

Apparently, this god fellow - in addition to being psychotic, neurotic, homicidal, genocidal, misogynistic and homophobic - is also quite gullible.
 Quello79
Joined: 7/18/2010
Msg: 178
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On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 7/13/2011 4:36:26 PM
@Irregulator

But of course when you say "independently verifiable", you mean by secular scientists and historians who are deliberately setting out to destroy the word of God. So of course they won't verify such information. And the result could have them shunned from the scientific community and maybe be fired, like what has happened in the past.

And of course AIG and all other Bible-believing ministries and scientific communities are "non-credible" in your opinion and world-view. I don't expect anything less. But that's the same on our part. Information from sedular scientists about finds, history and dating is always dubious and met with caution from our perspective. I agree with their statement of faith, so what's the point in this whole debate? You might as well only allow evolutionist atheists to just discuss it between yourselves and pat each other on the back.

You'll never learn anything, but that's how you'd prefer it.

I didn't see anyone come with debunks for the debunks I produced for Alan's apparent Bible contradictions. If as you say our information is all debunked, where were all the debunks that didn't come flooding in?
 Quello79
Joined: 7/18/2010
Msg: 179
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On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 7/13/2011 4:50:55 PM
@Coma White

Erm, then perhaps you haven't seen or heard what I have in regards to demonic possession.
You are correct in saying there's nothing scientific about the cases in regards to hallucinations or abnormal brain chemical inbalances. I suppose an easy reference would by the film The Exorcist, which is based on a true story - they took the child for many tests with doctors and found nothing wrong with her. The only way to make her better was with a person of faith and prayer. Which is what happened with a woman at church (the pastor and his wife had to exorcise her house. She had been experiencing noises and her bed rocking). And which is always the case for the documented occurances in a boxset of reinacted documentaries I own called A Haunting (shown on Discovery channel).

I also saw a documentary about the Italian region Tuscany. A small part of the programme was about a possesed girl who was seeking help from a pastor.

The point is, demonic possession is real. And because of that, demons exist. The only understanding of their creation is from Satan and of course his creation is from God. Ergo as demonic possession occurs and requires prayer to the Christian God to cure it, God exists.

But like I've already said, no amount of evidence of God is enough for many people such as most of the people on here.

Brought back from the dead: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3682855866783766146#

http://www.90minutesinheaven.com/

Even my own mother was part of a healing team who cured a woman of crippling cancer (who was told by the doctors there was nothing left they could do and she was close to death).

When I said this debate was predicted in the Bible, I didn't mean they mentioned computers.

Peter 3:3-4
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
 Quello79
Joined: 7/18/2010
Msg: 180
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Posted: 7/13/2011 4:57:45 PM
A funny video about dating methods.

Truth hurts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGB-PfFSV2w
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 181
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On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 7/13/2011 7:30:12 PM
actually, if the evidence of a god can not be seen in the stucture of a basic worm, nothing more will convince you of the existance of a higher power, creator.

the worm includes, atoms, chemical reactions, cells, laws of physics etc.

which is more complicated then man will create in the next thousand years, probably ever, is my bet.

there is also no empirical proof whatsoever of an alternative source of everything, no matter what kinds of dogma you believe.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 184
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Posted: 7/13/2011 8:12:10 PM
naturalism is also arrived at by reasoning at the present time.

in the end it is your choice and nothing else.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 186
On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 7/14/2011 3:26:48 PM
You know who could settle this once and for all?

God. You know, the big G! The Deity, His holy self!! I mean, jeez! If he REALLY wanted us to believe in him, why doesn't he just, like, show up! Say 'Hi!' Do something that would prove once and for all that he's The One! And only!

Oh, I know. App will pipe up about how presumptuous of me it is to expect me to be able to tell god(s) what he...I mean He...should do. But hey. Considering how much debate has been going on, and how much has been done in his name, you gotta think not everything done is...you know...the right thing. Somebody had to be doing something in his name that ticked him off! It's only a matter of time.

So here we go. My challenge to Elohim. Or Yahweh. Or whatever name he goes by. Come down. Settle this once and for all.

Waiting....waiting....*crickets*
 ComplekCity
Joined: 1/17/2011
Msg: 187
On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 7/14/2011 3:35:00 PM
If he REALLY wanted us to believe in him, why doesn't he just, like, show up! Say 'Hi!' Do something that would prove once and for all that he's The One! And only!



Perhaps "God" ( notice I didn't say " He" or " She " because why would a God need to be a gender ? ) , couldn't care less what any of us believe.

Would you care if two ants debated endlessly and pointlessly about whether or not YOU existed ?

Not only would you not be aware of them but even if you were , I'm sure you have better things to do than go up to them and say " Ta da ! Here I am ! Joe the ant was right ! " .

At least.... I would hope so.

 ComplekCity
Joined: 1/17/2011
Msg: 188
On the Existence of God and Other Sundry Matters
Posted: 7/14/2011 4:03:47 PM
ALAN ( msg 335 ) :

Don't blame God/hold God accountable for what HUMANS wrote !

LOL
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 190
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Posted: 7/14/2011 6:45:43 PM
according to the 'myth' god did show himself at certain times in history.

guess what people did?
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 191
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Posted: 7/14/2011 10:08:03 PM
seems like I have to explain the god I am referring to every time I bring him up.

still folks on here who want to confuse the creator of all we can imagine with baal or zeus.
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