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 Secondhand_Lion
Joined: 11/10/2008
Msg: 68
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Depopulation Page 4 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)
Well, The way things are going, I don't think we have much to fear about a population increase over the long term. Discounting all the other problems of the world, be it finiancial or aggression...there are other issues impending. If we don't run out of closets pretty soon, 90% of the population will be bi, gay or trans.....and the few remaining straight people are starting to show a strong preference to use the wrong holes. I've heard it said in the "Jurrasic Park" movie, that nature finds a way. I sure hope not....I don't want to be hearing about any toilet babies. But who knows...that might revive "Kilroy was here".
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 69
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Depopulation
Posted: 8/23/2011 4:22:25 PM
This is all really a matter of timing.

Will the next big breakthrough in food/energy/wealth production reach us before, or after we really really need it to?

There have been times in the past, when the timing was off, to the detriment to some population or another. There are times NOW when that happens, and we call it a "famine in such-and-such an area." It can be the result of politics, poor planning, refusal to admit to the looming and visible troubles, or natural disaster.

After the mess happens, we've often more than bounced back, which is why so many people are so sure that they can stick their heads up their own backsides and crow about "Human Innovative Spirit" or other such claptrap.

It's all a matter of timing, and luck.

We'll see.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 70
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Depopulation
Posted: 8/23/2011 5:59:56 PM
Good points Igor..
Timing is everything, whether it be on time or entirely too late. the concept of "human innovative spirit" is entirely too foreign to the spoiled rotten, wasteful, in-the-moment, monument builders on Easter Island, or deforester-warriors of Greece, and many others who disappeared without much trace.

We have devolved into a in-the-now bunch of cultures at this point in time, all expecting the next generation to reap our contributions, while at the same time, becoming smart enough with enough investement, to save our sorry arses from ourselves. If we had only invested in sustainability, rather than liquidity, we might have had a chance in hell. By the time these kids get it, find out the tools are expired or ineffective, they are gonna be stuck with a helluva lot of hurt and few options.

This is the first generation, those of us lucky to have been bourne into at this point of life, where delusions met extremely harsh realities, and most were not ready to actually deal with all that. It is luck, timing, and grace, that we ended up here at this time. We are also the most informed, capable, and empowered generation of life on earth at this point as far as we know now. To waste that cusp of these things because we are lazy, in denial, or just plain stupid or evil is a tremendous insult to the next generations. I have little respect for this bunch as will they in the long run. Whose side are you on? And what in the hell has posterity ever done for US? Just wondering.
 Hibernian1960
Joined: 9/13/2008
Msg: 71
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Depopulation
Posted: 8/25/2011 12:11:16 AM
Humanity is rotten, rotten to the core, and SINFUL too. REPENT, REPENT, REPENT!!!

Hey, do you know what's "sustainable"?

Breeder reactors. And it is "born", not "bourne", hopefully posterity can reason and spell better than Mudpuppy the lying cultist
 Hibernian1960
Joined: 9/13/2008
Msg: 72
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Depopulation
Posted: 8/25/2011 1:31:37 AM
"Whether intended or accidental, the greatest threat to the human population is now radioactive contamination from fallout. I speak specifically about the three reactors at Fukushima. They have already spread enough fallout globally (mostly in the Northern Hemisphere, with higher concentrations in North America than Europe and the highest of course being in the area around Japan; but that is the "happy" part of the story…it gets worse.

Already the implication is a higher rate of infant/fetus death/morbidity, which has already been partially confirmed by a sudden jump in infant deaths in areas as diverse as British Columbia/Washington State and Philadelphia, but again, this is only a hint of what is to come. More Cancer is already a given and tens of millions of people can expect to die from cancer resulting from ingestion of hot particles in the food and air. Sterility and infertility will rise dramatically, thus resulting (possibly) in negative population growth (globally) for the first time in recorded history.

Now for the bad news. Fissures venting highly radioactive steam (1000 rem/hr) have opened up around the reactors at Fukushima. This suggests that the melt-throughs have now burned through the concrete containment floors and turned into the "China Syndrome" as the hot glowing blobs have hit the water table. There is now a severe risk of breaking down the groundwater and a resulting massive hydrogen explosion that will send HUGE amounts of highly radioactive fallout high into the atmosphere to be distributed across the globe. At that point, the eventual casualties will be measured in the hundreds of millions, possibly billions over the following 25 -30 years. It's likely that the surviving by then adult children will almost assuredly be infertile and that the human race within about 50 years will only be a small remnant of today's number.

Considering that the contamination will be long lasting and still very strong in 50 years, I think we can all see that within 100 years, the human race, and many other species will be extinct."- JustDukky

Where are you getting this crap?
 Hibernian1960
Joined: 9/13/2008
Msg: 73
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Posted: 8/25/2011 2:24:50 AM
You posted this on August 21st, well after North American authorities determined that there was no significant contamination from the incident. Even in Japan itself there have been NO reported cases of radiation fatalities so far.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_I_nuclear_accidents

You have gotten a hold of a load of crap, perhaps from Mudpuppy.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 74
Depopulation
Posted: 8/25/2011 11:37:41 AM
Even in Japan itself there have been NO reported cases of radiation fatalities so far.


Did I claim there were?


You have gotten a hold of a load of crap, perhaps from Mudpuppy.


My "load of crap" pretty much agrees with most of the Wikipedia page you cited, except that the Wiki version obviously downplays the severity of events (was it written by the NRC?) Anyway, While I may have sensationalized just a tad (not having confirmation of the fissures or actual temperatures of the molten cores), the possibility I raised of this eventually becoming an extinction level event ought not be so easily dismissed. The truth is, we haven't done a proper study on the consequences of a massive underground hydrogen explosion atomizing the pile(s) to be distributed globally as aerosolized particulate fallout; not one that I'm aware of anyway.

At any rate, for educational purposes, here is a small part of the "load of crap" that I've been paying attention to:

I've been following developments mostly on the Alexander Higgins blog, as he does a good job of compiling info from many other sources. I'm also a fan of Arne Gunderson's Fairewinds Associates and of Helen Caldecott, etc.

http://www.examiner.com/human-rights-in-national/fukushima-china-syndrome-clearly-a-concern-video

http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2011/08/08/experts-lethal-levels-offscale-radiation-fukushima-infer-millions-dying-51761/

http://weeklyintercept.blogspot.com/2011/08/japans-fukushima-catastrophe-brings-big.html

http://www.straight.com/article-417716/vancouver/health-canada-negligent-fukushima-nuclearradiation-threats-liberal-mp-joyce-murray-claims

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/08/nuclear-expert-because-japanese-are.html

http://theintelhub.com/2011/08/18/radiation-betrayal-and-treason/

(In the above URL, please note that the US is still buying Japanese food, as is Canada. I don't know if the American imports are being tested for radiation, but I DO know that Canada's are not._

http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2011/08/18/cbs-60-minutes-fukushima-radiating-unspeakable-reality-will-impact-humanity-61001/

http://www.examiner.com/human-rights-in-national/fukushima-early-stage-china-syndrome-global-media-blackout?CID=examiner_alerts_article

http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2011/08/22/alert-156-millisieverts-year-radiation-saint-loius-levels-178-times-background-62561/

educational:

http://vimeo.com/23186557

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb3p0qx09fA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ITrXVJMKeQ

News:

http://fairewinds.com/updates

http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2011/05/19/nuclear-physicist-plutonium-mox-fuel-nuclear-fallout-drop-22822/

http://www.euractiv.com/en/health/radiation-risks-fukushima-longer-negligible-news-503947

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr2PmjdpLqM&feature=player_embedded

Canada

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-8BiHgG3cs&feature=related

Since our governments have stopped much of the atmospheric & contamination monitoring since shortly after the disaster (presumably to avoid advising health Canada regarding possible food contamination), we are forced to rely on amateurs for information regarding regional fallout and to extrapolate from that.:

http://enenews.com/video-1-68-µsvhr-detected-in-canadian-rain-water-sample-geiger-counter-display-reads-dangerous-radiation-background

http://enenews.com/oklahoma-city-rain-162-microsieverts-hour-dangerous-radiation-background-video

Obviously, the governments should be monitoring and telling people to stay out of the rain and to shower as soon as possible after getting caught in it, etc., etc,. One has to ask why they aren't advising people regarding the risks of exposing themselves to hot particle fallout if they are at all concerned about public safety. Seems like gross negligence to me.

Sudden infant deaths:

http://enenews.com/b-c-canada-sees-spike-in-number-of-sudden-infant-deaths-why-so-many-of-those-have-come-up-this-year-we-dont-know

All of a sudden, people have forgotten how to care for their babies?…I don't think so! Read the related posts on that page to see that it isn't exclusive to B.C. and coincides with a similar phenomenon after Chernobyl.

The usual suspects are at it again…damage control?:

http://enenews.com/local-official-bc-canada-reveals-chernobyl-coverup-hair-stood-straight-when-told-worry-about-radiation-fukushima

http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2011/08/04/canada-government-covered-massive-amounts-radiation-canadian-air-49771/

Of all the URLs, the one I recommend the most is http://vimeo.com/23186557 , since it tells people about sensible precautions they can take to minimize their exposure. I feel the MSM has done us all a HUGE disservice in not informing the public adequately and of course our government has been lying to us for so long they don't know how not to anymore, so don't trust them either; they aren't looking out for us.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 75
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Depopulation
Posted: 8/25/2011 3:03:42 PM
JustDukky...Best not to confuse Hypernuclear with any facts. He tends to call any facts that disagree with his Nukes-are-the-answer for all things-are always safe-harmless-plenty of plutionium-colored glasses.

Lessons were learned from Chernobyl, and the response workers are not dropping like flies yet, and it's pretty obvious that the exposures from the Fukushima uckfup will lead to hundreds of thousands of casualties in the coming decades.

The New York Academy of Science put the Chernobyl death toll at 985,000 in the following 16 years alone. The death toll of nukes starts in mining and processing communities. From Monticello, Utah, to the Dine in the Navajo Nation, the Inuit of Nunavut, and all places engaged in the mining and processing, the death toll is ongoing, cancer clusters the norm, and a legacy of radioactive waste in the land and waters threatening generations to come.

http://shinsaigo.com/2011/08/06/chris-busby-projected-fukushima-casualties/
http://ajw.asahi.com/article/0311disaster/fukushima/AJ201108015118
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 78
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Posted: 8/26/2011 7:59:11 AM

He talks about how the United Nations should play a role in finding a "satisfactory way" to stablising world population in a manner sensitive to religious and moral considerations ?
There are a number of ways to cut down the population: Encourage lots of people to have no kids, which we're doing already. Cause lots of deaths in wars. We're in 2, and have been for about 10 years. Cause epidemics in the population. Some people say that is happening, although I am undecided if it's being done, only that it's par for the course as far as modern Western governments go.


Will medical advancements have to be restricted if they create a unsustainable longevity problem ?
Already being put in place. There are a calls for smokers and obese people to be denied surgery and hospital treatment. Patient healthcare is going more and more private in the UK, and as a result, more and more people are having to pay for their own treatment. There is also a growing suggestion that all this genetics should be used by medical HMOs to decide who to insure for what, because in their view, if you have a pre-existing DNA that increases your risk of a certain disease, that should cause your premiums to rise, or even possibly that such diseases should be excluded from the cover that your HMO provides, and should have to be paid out of your own pocket.

To cope with the rising population, pensionable ages are getting longer, and more jobs are being arranged in such a way that only the elderly would be able to do them, such as taxi driving.


What level of world population is sustainable to achieve Mr Rockefellers ideal of everyone having a " decent life " what actually is this so called decent life ?
A lot of people say 5 million. I think you'd need to multiply that figure by 10 times, to cover for the servants to do their bidding. I would have said that machines could replace humans, and so we could keep away from using humans as slaves. But it turns out that our machines were mostly powered by petroleum-based products, like petrol, and we now keep turning away from fossil fuels. So we either all have to do it all ourselves, or we have to go back to slavery, with 10 slaves for every citizen. Personally, I doubt that most people would choose hard slog for the rest of their lives over moral considerations. Morality versus nothing, yes. Morality versus us being our own slaves, no.

Of course, that's all if we cannot get an energy source as abundant, portable, and as easy to use as petrol. So far, I see a lot of people saying we will. But that's been for 40 years, and we still haven't gotten anywhere near a realistic version of that.
 Hibernian1960
Joined: 9/13/2008
Msg: 79
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Depopulation
Posted: 8/26/2011 11:47:57 PM
"Of all the URLs, the one I recommend the most is http://vimeo.com/23186557 , since it tells people about sensible precautions they can take to minimize their exposure. I feel the MSM has done us all a HUGE disservice in not informing the public adequately and of course our government has been lying to us for so long they don't know how not to anymore, so don't trust them either; they aren't looking out for us."-JustDukky

Your source is a hired gun for the antinuclear movement whose credentials are not of the highest caliber. Regarding his concerns about Vermont Yankee suffering an event comparable to Fukushima, I personally find the probability of a tsunami in Vermont very remote, and that appropriate precautions are far more likely to have been taken in case of flooding due to the situation in Japan.

You admit to sensationalizing- it is not improbable that your sources suffer a similar temptation to take liberties with the truth.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 80
Depopulation
Posted: 8/27/2011 1:17:04 AM

Your source is a hired gun for the antinuclear movement...

Proof please (or at least some evidence).


...whose credentials are not of the highest caliber.

What credentials does he need? Are you suggesting that we shouldn't pay heed to him with regard to taking precautions against hot particles?


Regarding his concerns about Vermont Yankee suffering an event comparable to Fukushima, I personally find the probability of a tsunami in Vermont very remote

I didn't remember hearing that in his interview, so I watched it again. I still didn't hear it. Am I missing something here?


You admit to sensationalizing- it is not improbable that your sources suffer a similar temptation to take liberties with the truth.

Don't you admit to downplaying things?...It is not improbable that your sources, being so close to the nuke industry and a lying government might also take liberties with the truth?
 joemac356
Joined: 9/22/2009
Msg: 85
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Posted: 9/10/2011 11:33:22 AM
In other words, we're screwed.
 Hibernian1960
Joined: 9/13/2008
Msg: 86
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Posted: 9/11/2011 12:08:55 AM
"Given the nature of people, there really is no solution. Even if those who say there's plenty more space on the planet are right, the population will just grow to use those resources too. There is some finite limit, and humanity is going to crash hard against it, then there will be famine, massive depopulation in the most agonizing way, etc.

As for the people who say we can adapt socially and physically...it means less space and resources per person. Why is a larger population better? If it were your choice, would you rather live on a planet with 10 billion people living in comfort, peace, and luxury, or 30 billion people living a cramped, meager existence, never enough food, not enough space. Why is more for the sake of more a good things? That's the philosophy of a cancer cell.

You can't even convince people the world won't end in December 2012...how will you convince them if they have 6 children, their grandkids will starve to death?"-Alan 1212

Answer is simple, get off planet. Space resources are vast beyond your imagining.

Why limit ourselves?

If people lived at primitive levels, current population densities would be impossible.

In 100, 200 years, today's levels will be considered "primitive."

Doubt me?

Consider history...

And whether we get off planet or not:

http://www.cleanenergyinsight.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/nnp_factsheet_2010_final.pdf
 Hibernian1960
Joined: 9/13/2008
Msg: 87
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Posted: 9/11/2011 1:15:26 PM
"Your source is a hired gun for the antinuclear movement..."-me

"Proof please (or at least some evidence)."- Just DUKKY


"...whose credentials are not of the highest caliber."-me

"What credentials does he need? Are you suggesting that we shouldn't pay heed to him with regard to taking precautions against hot particles?"-Just DUKKY

Per your request:

http://atomicinsights.com/2011/08/arnie-gundersen-still-spreading-unwarranted-fear-far-and-wide.html

http://atomicinsights.com/2011/02/arnie-gundersen-has-inflated-his-resume-yet-frequently-claims-that-entergy-cannot-be-trusted.html

There is another thread devoted to actual safety issues RE nuclear power and radiation, perhaps you would enjoy participating? Consider yourself invited, please.
 bamagrl68
Joined: 11/14/2010
Msg: 88
Depopulation
Posted: 9/14/2011 5:44:24 PM
I don't want to live in a world where we resort to considering depopulation.
We are at the top of the food chain because we have intelligence.
We need to use that to our advantage NOW and find ways to conserve natural resources and create new resources before it gets to that point.
 Hibernian1960
Joined: 9/13/2008
Msg: 89
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Depopulation
Posted: 9/14/2011 8:08:31 PM
Agreed, and thank you for the comment- ironically the smallest of creatures are most likely to feast on us now, necrotizing fasciitis, etc.
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