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 FrankNStein902
Joined: 12/26/2009
Msg: 73
US Debt CrisisPage 3 of 8    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8)

Correct me if I am wrong, but you are intimating is that we need to raise taxes. Well, raising traxes only works to a certain point, and then when the taxes get too high, it gets regresive in that you actually collect LESS taxes, because you will have discouraged certain activities.

So where is that threshold when taxes get too high and is the US above or below that?




As far as the illegal aliens..... if you were to spend some time here in So Cal with first generation, or for that matter, any LEGAL imigree, you would find out that they know that what hampers their ability to succeed is when ILLEGALS come here and depress the wage scale by working for less...

So when you have to pay an American wage what is going to happen to the cost of those goods and services?
 swingarm1966
Joined: 3/27/2011
Msg: 74
US Debt Crisis
Posted: 8/1/2011 4:49:58 PM

So where is that threshold when taxes get too high and is the US above or below that?


Actually the debasing of the currency actually is a hidden tax. Ask yourself why wages remain fairly static and goods and services continue to increase in price. It really is just the currency being diluted through the good ole printing press. And we just got an extension i guess huh?


So when you have to pay an American wage what is going to happen to the cost of those goods and services?


With the devaluation of the currency wages should be increasing however they are not really increasing at all or very little. That is why the USA has shifted to a service based economy and do not manufacture little else than war machines and a few automobiles. Quite pathetic really.
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 75
view profile
History
US Debt Crisis
Posted: 8/1/2011 5:28:38 PM

One thing I've always noticed is that when someone has nothing to say, the always go negative and call names........................

Need I point out, Paul, that you consistantly refer to your president as "howdy doody"?
 nipoleon
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 77
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History
US Debt Crisis
Posted: 8/1/2011 6:39:12 PM

Hey nip

I've asked this question way too many times of those who have the same attitude as you do, and have yet to get an answer.............

What tax rate would you consider too high?

I've given my answer to that lots of times........... your turn.

Paul K


OK... I will.

It's not a matter of taxes being too high.
It's a matter of tax rates being too low.

Taxes are not redistributing wealth, or paying lazy people not to work, despite what right wing propagandists want people to think.

Taxes are about reinvesting back into society.
A good businessman knows he must reinvest back into his company to remain successful. A good society must reinvest back into the country to remain successful as well.
If you enjoy the benefits of living in society, you must be willing to pay your fair share to live there. Anyone who doesn't want to pay their fair share is a freeloader on the society he lives in.

The biggest mistake this country has ever made was the Tax Reform Act of 1986. The right wing propagandists promised everyone that big business would reinvest the money they saved on taxes back into their companies and create jobs.
That was a damnable lie !
Instead of reinvesting their tax savings back into their companies to create jobs, corporations hoarded their money and sent the jobs overseas.
The middle class has been devastated and the disparity between rich and poor has widened outrageously.

Want proof ? Simply go to the Wall Street Journals web site and look at the history of the Dow Jones Average. Notice what happens to the Dow Jones average starting in 1986. It took over 80 years for the DJA to reach 2000. After 1986 it took only 17 years for the DJA to climb to over 14000 !
The rich didn't reinvest back into their companies and create jobs. The rich bought stock and used their money to invest in slave market economies overseas.
America and the American people could go to hell for all they cared.

Since 1986, American society has suffered.
All of the ills we have now can be directly tied to the Tax Reform of 1986.
 swingarm1966
Joined: 3/27/2011
Msg: 80
US Debt Crisis
Posted: 8/1/2011 7:57:53 PM
Wow you are full of crap :)
 RichenLosAngeles
Joined: 11/14/2010
Msg: 81
US Debt Crisis
Posted: 8/1/2011 9:36:24 PM
Swingarm - I'll buy into the notion that we invest in society through taxation. Having said that I would like to see what we have gained from these investments. I believe that if you show us value for our money, we will be more willing to give more.
Public sector jobs now outpay and outbenefit private sector jobs, and those jobs have grown significantly in number. I s that what you mean when you say we are investing in society?
Now that the world is in good shape, do they really need "Sam" to be their international policeman? Let's trim our standing overseas armies, and give those countries the opportunity to pay for their own defense.
Medicare and Social security were never intended to provide unlimited benefits, and the methods we use today are unsustainable.
Lastly, I'd like to invest in a national language, how about English? All road signs, government publications, to be in English. Would you buy that?
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 82
US Debt Crisis
Posted: 8/1/2011 10:44:51 PM

What tax rate would you consider too high?

The tax rate is too high when government revenues drop signifigantly because the high level of taxation has impeded economic growth-- from which the revenue comes. The government at that point is asking for too much and actually getting less as a result.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 83
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History
US Debt Crisis
Posted: 8/2/2011 1:18:47 AM
The early 80s pretty well sucked for employment till Reagan kicked in his tax hikes. Clinton, with his tax hikes had an extremely robust economy going for us. This goes against the republican narrative, but the figures are hard to argue with. The real danger in taxation for the wealthiest comes in the form of the implosion of the Republican party losing their big donors/puppet masters.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/18/us/18iht-letter18.html

A lot of what our tax money provides is infrastructure to get our cheap plastic goods, and plastic foods to us artificially cheap. We are currently running an infrastructure maintenance deficit of over $3 Trillion. My sis narrowly escaped the I-35 bridge collapse. Seems it would be a good thing to maintain what we can in our house of cards.

Unless you love privitized Halliburton toll roads, and the trolls under the new toll bridges being proposed.
 nipoleon
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 84
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History
US Debt Crisis
Posted: 8/2/2011 1:47:45 AM

PS....... taxes are not, never have been, never should be, about "re'investing" in a society................ Re-investing and controlling a society is NOT the federal govts. job, never has been, should never be.


Sounds like you've been reading too much Libertarian, Free Market pornography.

Reinvesting back into society through taxes is exactly what government is all about.
That's what every government that's ever existed has been about.
That's one of the basic reasons people form governments.

Government, no matter what form it takes, exists to serve the needs of the majority of the citizens who live there.
Any government which fails to do that deserves to be overthrown.
Most governments which haven't done that, have been overthrown.

As soon as enough people conclude their government no longer serves their basic needs, revolution is not far behind.
No government, whether it be a kingdom, a dictatorship, or a republic, that fails to serve the needs of the majority will survive very long.

We are coming close to a time when the majority of Americans realize our government no longer serves our needs.
 swingarm1966
Joined: 3/27/2011
Msg: 85
US Debt Crisis
Posted: 8/2/2011 5:58:04 AM

Swingarm - I'll buy into the notion that we invest in society through taxation. Having said that I would like to see what we have gained from these investments. I believe that if you show us value for our money, we will be more willing to give more.


Sighsmatters, Currently we do not reinvest in society it is more of a slave master arrangement, some people still believe that income tax actually goes to pay for social programs and infrastructure etc. It goes to pay the debt currently interest only and that is not going to change anytime soon.

Well Nipoleon there is nothing wrong with Austrian perspective as far as i can see :)

Income tax has precious little to do with reinvesting back into society (what society do we belong too? ever wonder? ) Income taxes go to pay the COMPOUND interest on the debt. There is not enough money to pay off the debt (principle+interest) Most people have a perverted notion that if the government created the currency interest free it would be inflationary LOL. Meanwhile they have been indoctrinated into the idea that creating the cash for society through commercial banks at compound interest is somehow a much better idea. There has never been a fiat currency that did not fail but the present arrangement with the Fed at the helm (private bankers) will insure a huge transfer of real wealth into private corporate hands. When the house of cards falls it will be these people who control all the real wealth from their creation of this worthless idea, federal reserve NOTES. Notes are by definition a debt instrument. So debt can not be paid with a debt instrument it can only be discharged into some future point in time. It however is not paid.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 86
US Debt Crisis
Posted: 8/2/2011 2:28:08 PM
"The early 80s pretty well sucked for employment till Reagan kicked in his tax hikes. Clinton, with his tax hikes had an extremely robust economy going for us. This goes against the republican narrative, but the figures are hard to argue with. The real danger in taxation for the wealthiest comes in the form of the implosion of the Republican party losing their big donors/puppet masters.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/18/us/18iht-letter18.html"

This is just bad statistics. Correlation does not equal causation, especially when data is cherry-picked. Government revenues as a percentage of GDP were lower in 1949 and 1950 than today and the economy was doing quite well. Payroll taxes during the post-WWII expansion were a fraction of what they are now (which has been constant since Clinton).

The Clinton economy was good probably because Greenspan loosened credit. That gave us the tech bubble until the market correction caused the Clinton recession. Then Bernanke did the same thing as Greenspan which gave us the housing bubble and a roaring economy, followed by the Bush recession. The same manipulation of the economy caused the Great Depression and Japan's Lost Decade.

The FED needs to clean up its act because it creates these huge booms and busts. It also doesn't help that Congress keeps playing with the baroque tax code and regulations which are two constant sources of uncertainty for businesses.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 87
US Debt Crisis
Posted: 8/2/2011 2:30:38 PM
"Reinvesting back into society through taxes is exactly what government is all about.
That's what every government that's ever existed has been about."

Read the US Constitution. The government was given power to defend the country, regulate trade with foreign countries, and very little else.
 FrankNStein902
Joined: 12/26/2009
Msg: 88
US Debt Crisis
Posted: 8/2/2011 2:41:56 PM

...Public sector jobs now outpay and outbenefit private sector jobs, and those jobs have grown significantly in number. I s that what you mean when you say we are investing in society?..

With respect to "have grown" I would be interested in seeing your source for this claim.

Because I would say it is just the opposite where those public sector jobs are going away and being replaced by private sector ones.

As seen here:
http://money.usnews.com/money/careers/articles/2011/07/08/public-versus-private-sector-job-gains


Which has a negative effect on the economy, as when people earn less money they spend less money and therefore the government collects less taxes.

Public Sector Job Cuts Threaten Recovery

http://money.usnews.com/money/careers/articles/2011/07/08/public-sector-job-cuts-threaten-recovery
 RichenLosAngeles
Joined: 11/14/2010
Msg: 89
US Debt Crisis
Posted: 8/2/2011 3:29:40 PM
Public sector jobs going away and being replaced by private sector?
AS WELL THEY SHOULD !!
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 91
US Debt Crisis
Posted: 8/2/2011 5:37:34 PM

Yes, public sector jobs should go away and be replaced by private sector jobs, unless you want to live in a socialist uptopia such as Cuba, or North Korea, or the former Soviet Union.

Yes, or you could live in the libertarian utopia of Somalia (which is probably a more pure and honest representation of that ideology than your examples are of socialism).

"... and now, you've got cholera."
 swingarm1966
Joined: 3/27/2011
Msg: 92
US Debt Crisis
Posted: 8/2/2011 6:05:25 PM
What descriptors would you use when describing the USA now PK ? Bush signed executive orders giving him the power to suspend habeas corpus and impose martial law. So that is pretty much dictatorial power to the presidency no? The goverment can jail you for life without charges a trial and without a lawyer check out executive order 10999
executive order 11000, ex Order 11921, senate bill 1873, hr 1528 , google it. Did you know the American dollar is not American but international what does that mean? Do you know?
There are 190 countries in the world USA has bases in 130 of them. you are delusional lol. The patriot act allows secret searches of your home and business. Secret wiretaps and internet activity monitoring.

The empire is now coming to an end. LOL you think you are not living in a comparable socialist country PK? you are delusional if you hold some historic American view of how things are. Think you are any better than your above listed socialist utopias lol lol. Corporate socialism continues to play out daily in the USA and really is the reason this thread exists
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 93
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History
US Debt Crisis
Posted: 8/2/2011 6:09:22 PM
Blackwater/xE and CCA, BoFa, and every corporation that managed 4o1 Ks, the insurance industry and health care death panels have all shown us the future of privitized public services. Pay the toll or die, pay the price for the part or die, trust us and die...seems to be a common thread in the latter option. I know I would love to have my local militia nuts from extremist groups running my toll booths and truth and reconciliation committees, own the judges, and write the rules. Kochs suck quite frankly in looking out for the majority.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 95
US Debt Crisis
Posted: 8/2/2011 6:30:56 PM
Well, there are no better, you know, REAL LIFE examples of a libertarian nation, unless you have better. I think you would have mentioned one already if you did. That seems to indicate that libertarianism is pretty impractical in application. Sounds absolutely magical when people here try to explain how great it works in their imaginations, though.
 FrankNStein902
Joined: 12/26/2009
Msg: 96
US Debt Crisis
Posted: 8/2/2011 6:35:21 PM
..I wonder if they would take Canadian money? Lets see, I know the answer to that one..............

So I used a little Canadian Tire money in the 80's, did I ruin it for every body?


 swingarm1966
Joined: 3/27/2011
Msg: 97
US Debt Crisis
Posted: 8/2/2011 6:49:32 PM
Hey PK .....bleh

OK sounds good i'll ignore you and you ignore me ;)

You have an attachment issue to notions that no longer are true. Tune into your O'reillyesque news . Conspiracies ARE running rampant no? If you think not, youre insane..... a nutbag, nutjob etc you no like anyone who questions the mainstream reporting of reality ;)
 robin-hood
Joined: 12/2/2008
Msg: 98
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History
US Debt Crisis
Posted: 8/2/2011 7:35:26 PM
Well all this time in the House and no firm cuts in spending, only decreases in projected budget increases. Guess the USA will pay the long term consequences down the road, or where ever the house kicked the can this time.

That dollar you have today will be worth 50 cents in 7 years and 33 cents in 10 years. I sure feel for the younger generation.

I see Obama 1st thing wants to bail out the public unions again with new bail out money as the last bail outs passed right by the public sector, except for the financial sector.

I've enjoyed the comments on this thread, but the boat has sailed, just have to see how it plays out.
 swingarm1966
Joined: 3/27/2011
Msg: 101
US Debt Crisis
Posted: 8/3/2011 9:16:52 AM
Oh well its ok PK, I was not aware i was spewing any? Which ones in particular , just to clarify? Conspiracies have shaped our world though no? Do you think your "correct" mainstream worldview is without conspiracy theories? Do we have a free press and free media? Or is there an agenda to keep us less than informed? Or is that a conspiracy theory?
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 102
US Debt Crisis
Posted: 8/3/2011 9:34:21 AM

Somalia is just a lawless area that resembles only what a lawless area can resemble. It is not predminatly conservative, liberal, communisht, bhuddist, catholic, libertarian........ it is controled by them ones with the most guns.

Say no more-- lest you give Rand Paul a stiffy.
 RichenLosAngeles
Joined: 11/14/2010
Msg: 104
US Debt Crisis
Posted: 8/3/2011 12:30:37 PM
Vibrant - I'm not sure if I'm reading this correctly: Our debt can be paid off completely in 4 years?
Is this with or without EarthPuppy's 22 trillion? We kind of forgot about his little nestegg, but it could still come in handy.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 107
view profile
History
US Debt Crisis
Posted: 8/3/2011 2:42:35 PM
The $22 Trillion figure was a figment of the charts used by Bloomburg Busineness Week. Take it up with them.
http://images.businessweek.com/cms/2011-07-28/or32__01__popup2.jpg

The debt "crisis" was purposely manufactured to target Social Security, a target since it's inception. Attacking it straigh on has never been popular among the people who have dilligently paid into it their whole lives. It has been solvent, and will remain a solvent program with only minor tweaking at some point in the future. The real target has always been to try to privitize SS monies in the financial markets, the same markets that wiped out so many peoples' 401Ks. Most Americans understand this and the Conservatives and Teaturds are acting against the wishes of the American people and are being quite dishonest about the whole thing. Just because thieves from the far right have had a habit of raiding the fund, does not make the program unviable. It only makes them thieves that need to return the funds they stole or do the hard time.

The Bush memo of 2004 highlights the plan to privitize the fund in a way that would cost the government more.
http://www.kellysite.net/ssnocris.htm#memo
http://readersupportednews.org/off-site-opinion-section/83-83/6792-debt-madness-was-always-about-killing-social-security

The biggest crisis this nation faces is a crisis of dishonesty and pathological liars.
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