Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 Anchises
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 51
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent DesignPage 3 of 54    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41)

You watch a lot of Ray Comfort/Kirk Cameron videos, doncha'?

What next, a picture of the "Crocaduck"?


UH. No.




LOL. Wow you're quoting me from another thread. Nice. I didn't make that thread - I was answering the person that posted the thread. If you want to quote me chap, than quote within the context of what we're talking about.


It wasn't rhetoric that made your question stupid. It was a loaded question, what it was loaded with was a very stupid premise that a watermelon could "know" anything


It was a simple question. Does a watermelon KNOW to be hard from the outside and hold water in the inside or was it MADE to be as such and like that?

Was that "knowledge" of having that particular shape instilled within the seeds or did all the fruits and veggies learn to be how they are on there own.



See, that's the point you missed, …the thermos didn't "know".


That's the point it DOES NOT know. It was MADE to be like that it was DESIGNED to be like that.
 Anchises
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 52
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/8/2011 2:26:00 PM

Neither, false dichotomy = stupid Ray Comfort-style loaded question.


I gave you the opposites. Just like evolution and intelligent design. There is no dillema. And if it's neither, is there another alternative? Or in your world a watermelon doesn't exist.
 jay.m83
Joined: 5/18/2011
Msg: 53
view profile
History
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/8/2011 3:12:23 PM
It was a simple question. Does a watermelon KNOW to be hard from the outside and hold water in the inside or was it MADE to be as such and like that?

Was that "knowledge" of having that particular shape instilled within the seeds or did all the fruits and veggies learn to be how they are on there own.


Answer is simply neither. Its easy to try and get the answer you want when you limit the possible results based on your own preconceived notion.

The answer is once upon a time there were several watermelons, of these watermelons the ones with the hardest exterior survived far easier, procreated, and then it went on to the next generation. Of that generation there were watermelons still that had even harder exteriors, they survived far easier and then passed their genes to the next generation. They had no knowledge of this, and no one created them in a specific way. The whole, did they know, or were they created is the dumbest argument I've heard thus far.

You can trace this going forward, and backwards as far as you wish. Back to microbial beings, and the beginning of life.

Further more Evolution, and Creationism(Screw the sciency term Intelligent Design) are not opposites. Back and Forward are opposites. Evolution and Creationism are merely ways to try and explain the origin of life. One of them has supporting evidence. There are other ways to explain it as well. Like some people think Mars used to have intelligent life. And people think they screwed up Mars with Fossil Fuels or Nuclear war or whatever. So they sent People to earth to populate it. Yep, they are absolutely crazy nuts. But it is no less crazy than believing some being, created everything we see and know out of spare parts he had lying around(or she, no need why it couldn't have been female, its not like super she-god actually exists anyway.) Took a very proactive, and violent interest in our day to day lives to begin with. Kills everything except 2 of each animal. Tells the 10 things we are never aloud to do to 1 guy. Sends his son down to earth to be killed to show you he will always forgive us, and then say screw it for the next 2000 years for no apparent reason.

They have found strong evidence that Mars would have been able to support life at some point in the past. That means that the Martian origin nuts, now have more evidence than the creationists. Creationists don't have evidence. They have a book. Written by ancient politicians, trying to scare people to obey their way of thinking and telling you what you need to do with your life because it benefits them.

/rant
 jay.m83
Joined: 5/18/2011
Msg: 54
view profile
History
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/8/2011 3:55:09 PM
1 more thing, if the bible is the written word of god, then why is it centralized in a very small part of the planet? Where's the story where God was a buffalo, and told Tonto the Native American Chief to grow corn. Where are the aztecs? Any western civilization. Where they edited out? Did god just not care? Was there truly 1 master race only worthy enough to receive gods word, and then assimilate the rest of the world?

You know, while we are asking loaded questions.
 Anchises
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 55
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/8/2011 3:59:37 PM

Answer is simply neither. Its easy to try and get the answer you want when you limit the possible results based on your own preconceived notion.


Answer is simply neither because you don't have an answer. All the veggies, fruits and animals have knowledge instilled within them from birth. But mankind is the only creation born ignorant and has to learn for years.

Well you are talking from a Christianity point of view when you talk about:


Sends his son down to earth to be killed to show you he will always forgive us, and then say screw it for the next 2000 years for no apparent reason.


As a Muslim I don't follow.

Who knows if there were Martians - if they were I'd say they were also created. A creationist says everything has been designed by an Ultimate Prime Mover.
 jay.m83
Joined: 5/18/2011
Msg: 56
view profile
History
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/8/2011 4:08:13 PM
I apologize I am not more knowledgeable on the Qur'an. However I do believe the origin stories are similar are they not?
 jay.m83
Joined: 5/18/2011
Msg: 57
view profile
History
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/8/2011 4:20:13 PM

Answer is simply neither because you don't have an answer. All the veggies, fruits and animals have knowledge instilled within them from birth. But mankind is the only creation born ignorant and has to learn for years.


I gave you an answer. Read it. Why is that not an answer? Because its not one of your chosen 2? Life's not black and white my friend. Saying that a Watermelon knows how to be hard, is saying that humans know how to have hair. Or grow. You are talking about DNA my friend. And yes I guess to explain it primitively you could call it sort of a "knowledge" I guess. It contains data. But Watermelons and humans are on the same field on that one. Watermelons know how to be hard, but humans know how to have hair. Through mini storage banks called DNA.
 Anchises
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 58
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/8/2011 4:26:50 PM
Well most are similar to the stories of the Prophet and Messengers. But when it comes to Jesus that's where it starts to differ very much. And there's most descriptive narrations than the Torah and Bible.

And unlike the Torah and Bible. It is the same word for word since 1400 and so years ago.
 Anchises
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 59
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/8/2011 4:35:50 PM

I gave you an answer. Read it. Why is that not an answer? Because its not one of your chosen 2? Life's not black and white my friend. Saying that a Watermelon knows how to be hard, is saying that humans know how to have hair. Or grow. You are talking about DNA my friend. And yes I guess to explain it primitively you could call it sort of a "knowledge" I guess. It contains data. But Watermelons and humans are on the same field on that one. Watermelons know how to be hard, but humans know how to have hair. Through mini storage banks called DNA.


That's DNA and it's true. Yes and we DNA to be in a certain way, but we are talking about physicality (to grow and shape) rather than the "knowledge" of I have to be sweet, I have to be watery (watermelon). It's like where did that DNA know to be like that?

Or like I got a kitten and I didn't train it to clean it self or use the litter but it knew right away, without learning it from anywhere else. Just like salmons know where to go or turtles that get hatched know to go straight to the water. Everything is balanced. If this was by chance this universe. Than it would be quite chaotic. But the only people that make this world chaotic is humans and we are born ignorant and must learn till our death bed.
 jay.m83
Joined: 5/18/2011
Msg: 60
view profile
History
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/8/2011 6:32:35 PM
It's like where did that DNA know to be like that?


The same way it knows how to make humans have hair. Everything tastes a certain way, and that is part of the DNA. It really comes back to that, you aren't making any new arguments.
 koncrete
Joined: 8/12/2009
Msg: 61
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/9/2011 1:25:55 AM
parts of evolution is FACT the other part of it is questionable.

FACT: organisms change over time, small changes over a very long time can make an entirely different organism all together. This is observed in the DNA and Fossil record, and in relation to current organisms.

Questionable: The mechanism that DRIVES the evolutionary processes! (natural selection and dna mutations don't explain everything perfectly)


Anyone who believes the literal account of genesis, their opinion is laughable.
 jay.m83
Joined: 5/18/2011
Msg: 62
view profile
History
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/9/2011 3:52:08 AM

Who created the ultimate prime mover?


Valid Question
 smilingatyou55
Joined: 12/15/2010
Msg: 63
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/9/2011 4:29:42 AM
Main Entry; the belief in and worship of a supernatural controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods
• details of belief as taught or discussed
• a particular system of faith and worship
• a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance
~ New Oxford American Dictionary 2nd edition © 2005 by Oxford University Press, Inc.

"Science" does not fit the main entry definition, while it can be argued that it fits the last sub-definition, it should be obvious as to the differences in meaning.

My response:
you do know, do you know not, that the topic of Science as a "religion" has been addressed before, may be not on this forum....the point I made about science being equal to religion isn't original. It was best articulated by Husserl in the 70's at a lecture on science and Religion, a phenomenological exploration at Northwestern.

But centuries before him, HUME in his tiny little book "Dialogue...."Made a distinction that I am yet to see any one refute. He suggested the categories like: statements of fact, (1+1=2) matters of fact (if it rains it pours). the former does not require an external verification...the validity of that statement is contained in the statement....The latter however is argued from the argument of contiguity...eg every day I see a crow it is has a white strip on its body, I have seen hundred of them and they all look the same, therefore I can safely assume that next crow will have the same color. The conclusion is not necessarily false, but it isn't equal in strength to the first argument, wounldn't say?
(of course, Hume's goal was to address the subjectivism that emerged from Kant's)

SO what is my point:
While I do see fallacies in the creationist arguments, they are as valid as any of the arguments of our quasi scientist friends.

the validity of scientific calculation are internally verifiable. Scientific assertion from evolution are speculations, at best. Yet most scientist run with those discoveries without thinking twice...it makes one wonder
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 64
view profile
History
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/9/2011 5:46:28 AM

SO what is my point:
While I do see fallacies in the creationist arguments, they are as valid as any of the arguments of our quasi scientist friends.

the validity of scientific calculation are internally verifiable. Scientific assertion from evolution are speculations, at best. Yet most scientist run with those discoveries without thinking twice...

Science doesn't make 'speculative assertions' other than for the purposes of testing. The theory regarding evolution is not a series of wild guesses, or assertions based on speculation, it's a set of conclusions based on a body of evidence accumulated through verifiable discovery.

Scientists don't "run with those discoveries without thinking twice". That's the antithesis of the scientific method, which obliges one to, not only, think twice, but to think three times, then four. Then to think again, and then to ask scientists world wide to think on it too, and test, and look for exceptions.

Darwins theory has stood up remarkably well to 150 years of questioning, unlike creationist accounts of the origins of, and reasons for, biological diversity. Which resist about 5 minutes of rational scrutiny.

...it makes one wonder

It certainly does. It makes me wonder how anyone over the age of about 8 could possibly believe an invisible magic voodoo man could materialise an entire universe complete with inhabitants.
 Pinayto
Joined: 2/5/2011
Msg: 65
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/9/2011 7:38:32 AM
This is my issue with evolution. Yes, well and good they are all well documented and 'proven'. Really? then why are there no wild evolution recorded at present time as they say it is that happened before? Why don't humans evolve into something else? Are we the ultimate evolved form? what? are the dogs, giraffe, elephant, etc. the ultimate evolved form? Why did they stop evolving? When waaaaaay before they evolve from this into this into this. I mean come on!!

Even animals don't evolve to another species as science has been telling us. I have to witness an evolution just as what science said happened when all those magical evolutions happen into the form we all know now. How convenient too that there were noone to witness those evolution as science said happened.

They say they watch and recorded and documented bacterias or worms evolve. Well and good, but guess what form they 'evolve'? yes, still worm and bacteria just different type.

What I wanna see is the magical evolution of where humans evolve from. If I witness that kind of evolution of man as science has told us. Then ya there really is no God.

I have to see to believe what they are trying to tell me too. But alas, they don't.
 Lint Spotter
Joined: 8/27/2009
Msg: 66
view profile
History
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/9/2011 7:54:30 AM

What I wanna see is the magical evolution of where humans evolve from. If I witness that kind of evolution of man as science has told us. Then ya there really is no God.
I wouldn't mind some of what you're smoking to believe that evolution is an overnight occurence.

I can't see a microscopic organism without aid, why do you expect that evolution of living organisms are capable of being seen with the naked eye?

A scientist can show the growth of man's intelligence over the past millenia, can you show me your god?

Didn't think so...
 jay.m83
Joined: 5/18/2011
Msg: 67
view profile
History
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/9/2011 9:35:08 AM
Correct. It isn't science's job to disprove god. But if religion wants to have credibility in the scientific realm it has to show some evidence of a god. And sorry, but the whole how does a watermelon know to be hard on the outside just doesn't cut it.
 Pinayto
Joined: 2/5/2011
Msg: 68
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/9/2011 10:10:41 AM
By the way, if evolution's success is adaptability. Why the need for different languages. How can they successfully adapt if they don't understand each other? And how did they learn to speak them? Honestly anyone wonder how these different languages come from?

I know science said it takes millions of years to evolve but why no significant evolutionary changes on present species, humans included? They've been like that for thousand of years still no change?
 Lint Spotter
Joined: 8/27/2009
Msg: 69
view profile
History
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/9/2011 10:24:59 AM

They've been like that for thousand of years still no change?
Cupcake, have you even thought of cracking open a history book?

The computer that you are typing on is part of evolution - the evolution of thoughts, ideas and inventions. Life expectancies have increased by almost double over the past thousands of years due to innovations of diet and medicine.

I wonder that these things are ignored by people when trying to make an argument?
 Hoyo
Joined: 7/18/2008
Msg: 70
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/9/2011 12:10:01 PM
Wow, had no idea this was still going!!

Someone asked about the books/source materials I have, I'll list off what I can see on my book shelf from here:
Dark Nature
The Greatest Show on Earth (Amazing book!)
The Human Story
The Selfish Gene
The Blind Watchmaker
The Naked Ape Trilogy
Peoplewatching
The Third Chimpanzee
The Artificial Ape
The Evolutionary World
Your Inner Fish

Just finished watching a documentary called Judgement Day (you can find it free online from Nova), about the Dover trial. That's what fascinates me about this subject, there are Christians (in the case of this trial) that were so strongly opposed to evolution, that they perjured themselves on the stand, vandalized school property, and even sent death threats to the presiding judge. Almost every other industrialized nation doesn't have this debate, science is left to scientists, science is not determined by consensus.

As for Darwin's Black Box, I am tempted to read it. But, the problem is ID is not science, and ID doesn't really set out to prove anything rather than disprove evolution, and no research has ever been submitted to a scientific journal. It brings nothing to the table.
 Hoyo
Joined: 7/18/2008
Msg: 71
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/9/2011 12:35:51 PM
lookinglifetime:

Really? then why are there no wild evolution recorded at present time as they say it is that happened before?


Evolution is a slow process, and it is happening constantly. You say "no wild evolution recorded", what sources have you been looking at? We can witness evolution in small increments, as it happens generation to generation, in animals with very fast reproduction rates. A few examples, and you can probably find more by searching these online:

-Russian silver foxes (through selective breeding): after about 35 generations their coats changed colours, eye colour changed, began barking, wagged their tails, tails stood upright, and ears drooped down

-Italian wall lizards displaced to a Croation island: over 30 years their skull structure changed, territorial instincts changed, larger guts, new organ structures in their bodies

-Stickleback in Lake Washington: due to lake water clarity increasing, since the 1960's their bodies are now covered in boney plates, similar to marine sticklebacks

-A species of butterfly on the Hawaiian Islands: have a mouth structure that is only capable of eating bananas, bananas were not on the island until the Polynesians introduced them

-Cichlids placed in test ponds with varying pond floors, and predators: cichlid colouration varied depending on the pattern on the pond floor, and if there were predators in the pond

Those are just a few I'm familiar with off the top of my head.


Honestly anyone wonder how these different languages come from?


I have! So I read a book on the subject! (The Language Instinct) Most language evolved from Proto-Indo-European. Linguists can usually tell when one language broke off from another as technology evolved with the language. Words that have always been needed, ie: sun (english), sonne (german), soleil (french), sol (swedish), saule (latvian), sole (italian) all sound the same because they come from a similar word. But as technology evolved and these languages already established themselves, they had to come up with new words on their own. So, a word like "rifle", a much newer word than "sun", in those same languages is rifle, gewehr, carabine, gevar, šautene, fucile. Everything evolves.
 TomJoadsGhost
Joined: 12/1/2010
Msg: 72
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/9/2011 1:43:31 PM
We are still evolving, Blacks mixing with whites and creating this new beautiful cream race is evolution

ive also heard in 1000 yrs we wont have that damn useless pinky toe!
 PragmaticDoc
Joined: 8/4/2009
Msg: 73
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/9/2011 9:01:05 PM
I got it, this is how it all went down. After slaying his brother, blah blah blah... Cain knew his wife. His wife was a ape/missing link/ type animal that was from the evolutionary path and Cain of course was Intelligently desgined and from there we have a perfect union of evolution and Creationism. Their children weird intelligently designed evolutionary man/woman-ape things fast-forward here we are. Ta-dah.
 PragmaticDoc
Joined: 8/4/2009
Msg: 74
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/10/2011 12:55:55 AM
All jokes aside, I am atheist, I don't need proof that I can read I have already died and NOTHING happened no bright lights, no burning lakes of sulphuric acid and pitchforks in my ass for laughing at Organized religon for 36 years. Evoltution exists and say otherwise is laughable. But I don't even believe in a God and I do think that one possiblity. What if and in know this is a stretch. There is a God and he is the greatest mathitician ever concieved. He could easily write DNA/ RNA. Evolution would be easy to program . I was taught everything boiled down to math even at the most basic levels. Anyway, slam away I know it's wacko and weird. But that would make God an alien math freak not some omni-potent do as i say or i shall smite you deity.
 Anchises
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 75
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/11/2011 1:07:00 AM

No, evolution is a scientific fact, intelligent design isn't even science, it's just a deceitful attempt (see "wedge strategy") to get religion into the science curricula of schools as well as areas of secular default.


No, evolution is only a fact because how science describes it as one. It is a strong theory they believe in and just call it a fact - while science can't figure out half of the things happening right now in this world in our present time. Intelligent Design or Creationism is than science too. Everything is mathematically precise.


Now you aren't even making sense.

It was a loaded question with a very stupid premise. Here's one for you;

"Have you stopped stealing from and killing those who don't believe what you do because your pet cat asked you to?"


What you think my cat is the son of sam?


Who created the ultimate prime mover?


Ah, now the devil whispers. Than what created light? In Islamic studies. Which I am a newbie at - 'Man asks questions, and always keeps asking question, why, where, when, who, what and again why, when, how, who and again why, where, when and again why and where - until the devil takes over and the devil keeps whispering to be persistent to ask and ask until the final question becomes, ask where your Lord came from. That's when a man's heart turns and starts to think and ponder and his faith dwindles and affirms that the earth and the universe and everything in between came here by chance.'
Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design