Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 Demigod1979
Joined: 12/4/2011
Msg: 827
view profile
History
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent DesignPage 49 of 54    (14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54)
This wiki is horrible and very incorrect. Atomism began with Democritus (at least from what we know of what few surviving texts we have) who supposed that one could take a piece of bread and break it in half and the do this again and again until eventually one would arive at a piece that could not be broken in two. This piece he calls an atom. Now atoms can be broken into constituent parts. But when one does so they either become other atoms or they cease to be truly be phisical material any longer (like if one were to try to split a hydrogen atom). And then we end up in the very strange world of quantum mechanics.

I'm not aware of that (you can feel free to edit it if you think it's inaccurate), but that doesn't really seem compatible with the standard model. Splitting a hydrogen atom into constituent parts should be possible (for example, the electron and proton can be separated, such as in plasma, and those parts can be split further still), and nowhere in physical theory does it indicate that splitting matter can make it non-physical (you can eliminate matter and turn it into energy though, such as when matter and anti-matter collide, but of course energy is not non-material either).

Now you see how little we really know? Let's not jump to any conclusions scientifically. Let's jump to conclusions in a realm of study where it is safe to do so. Howabout philosophy?

I never stated that science knows everything, neither am I jumping to any conclusions. In general, I believe that we should NEVER assume conclusions. If we don't know something we should just say that we don't know (there's no shame in not knowing). Like I said when I first quoted Weinberg, we will never know the entire truth - but that's okay. No scientific theory is 100% accurate but it's the closest thing we will ever get to the truth, and that's good enough. ;)
 CressB
Joined: 7/1/2011
Msg: 828
view profile
History
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/5/2012 4:38:32 PM
Demi:


I'm not aware of that (you can feel free to edit it if you think it's inaccurate), but that doesn't really seem compatible with the standard model. Splitting a hydrogen atom into constituent parts should be possible (for example, the electron and proton can be separated, such as in plasma, and those parts can be split further still), and nowhere in physical theory does it indicate that splitting matter can make it non-physical (you can eliminate matter and turn it into energy though, such as when matter and anti-matter collide, but of course energy is not non-material either).


Now we are getting into some pretty heavy stuff Demi. If we keep liable every thing we find as "phisical" then we are never going to find anything but the physical, which was the point I was making by relating mathematics to the atomic number of an atom. It is quite clear that our current system of mathematics/logic fits with quantum mechanics about as well as a square peg fits into a round hole (and that is a pun by the way)

I do not feel comfortable cntinuing this descussion any furth as we are beginning to tread upon the territory of my own cosmological hipotheses, Which contain the sum of my life's work in mathematics and physics.

So, I am probably going to drop out of this conversation at this point. I am not interested in giving my ideas away for free.


Like I said when I first quoted Weinberg, we will never know the entire truth - but that's okay.


This is a contradiction in terms Demi. How can you know that we will never know everything?
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 829
view profile
History
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/5/2012 5:01:08 PM
It is quite clear that our current system of mathematic fits with quantum mechanics about as well as a square peg fits into a round hole.


That is not clear at all. It is just really really difficult math. The math is just a description of the model. It exists or it doesn't. There are states that lack clarity in that definition but that is only to location, behavior, properties and predictability. What is so square peg, round hole?
 CressB
Joined: 7/1/2011
Msg: 830
view profile
History
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/5/2012 5:09:58 PM
Aries:

It was a pun read into it, or YOU spend YOUR entire life trying to understand math and science, and then YOU tell me.
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 831
view profile
History
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/6/2012 1:25:45 AM
btw...Just like with the concept of time, we make ourselves misunderstand what "physical" means in the first place, and have to be careful here. Like when a religious apologist talks about a scientist or atheist being a "materialist"...he doesn't quite know what he's talking about. The view of someone who doesn't subscribe to the supernatural is not quite just about everything being of a "material" world the way that is implied. And herein we have another example of what I complain about concerning linquistics. If we don't handle our language use properly, we'll just keep arguing all century long again...year 2100, we'll still be stupid, collectively.
 Demigod1979
Joined: 12/4/2011
Msg: 832
view profile
History
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/6/2012 6:48:23 AM

This is a contradiction in terms Demi. How can you know that we will never know everything?

How is it a contradiction? I am saying that the only thing we can know for sure is that we won't know everything (of course to be strictly philsophical, I should say the only thing we can know for sure is that we exist when we are thinking).
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 833
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/6/2012 7:38:36 AM

I am not interested in giving my ideas away for free.

It's a good thing the great philosophers & scientists throughout history were more generous to their fellow man and gave their ideas away freely.


The reason life exists is because the scientist conducting the experiment wanted to see what would happen if he placed his own 'genetic' material where the particles collided adding the necessary components for life. So, all of life is because of socially maladjusted and rather lonely nerd scientist.

Why didn't I think of that?…Oh well…Back to the drawing board…


what if the universe as we know it is just the molecular structure of something bigger, and the end of time is when the mucus dripping out of some giants nostril hits the ground, and our gravity is changed.

Yet another plausible theory!…You guys are batting 1000 (creatively speaking)…I hope I can get all this down in my notes.


the universe could have popped into existence due to quantum forces and an instability in matter and anti-matter. A singularity might be small enough to be subject to quantum forces and we know today that matter can temporarily pop into existence on a quantum level. The multiverse theory is also interesting, and increasingly likely. Our universe may be just one of an uncountable number of parallel universes. This might also tie in with Professor Smolin's concept of universe evolution, where new universes are created from black holes. Like a singularity, a black hole is also a point of infinite density so they may be nature's way of generating new universes. The list goes on but I think I'll stop it there for now.

I would too if I were you…Those speculations, while very plausible are quite mundane & old hat (not too many laughs to be had from them). They properly belong on DTSWMF's "Speculating on the Edge of Cosmology/Quantum Theory" thread.


quantum mechanics is supper cool!

I'm inclined to agree (to spite my limited knowledge of quantum theory)


The view of someone who doesn't subscribe to the supernatural is not quite just about everything being of a "material" world the way that is implied.

Give up…Too many people hold to the belief that "natural" means something we already have a scientific explanation for, while "supernatural" or "unnatural" means "something outside of nature", instead of something natural that we don't yet (and may never have) a natural (scientific) explanation for.


herein we have another example of what I complain about concerning linquistics. If we don't handle our language use properly, we'll just keep arguing all century long again...year 2100, we'll still be stupid, collectively.

Look on the bright side…We'll be able to post & argue until we die of a very old age and accomplish nothing in the way of education in the process. What could be more rewarding than that?


the only thing we can know for sure is that we exist when we are thinking

The epistemological dilemma has yet to be solved, so don't make Descartes' mistake of presupposing your own existence…You have to determine what exactly is meant by "existence" and "we" (or "I") in the first place….Just sayin'
 CressB
Joined: 7/1/2011
Msg: 834
view profile
History
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/6/2012 11:20:23 AM

It's a good thing the great philosophers & scientists throughout history were more generous to their fellow man and gave their ideas away freely.


I don't want money Dukky. I just don't want to be poor anymore and to have access to more science and for people to listen when I have an idea. I can't accomplish that by having my ideas stolen. My ideas are quite literaly all I have.
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 835
view profile
History
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/6/2012 6:25:47 PM
1320 (1318):

I suspect that you didn't read my sentence right.

I know that you believe you understand
what you think I said,
but
I am not sure you realize that
what you heard
is not what I meant.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 836
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/6/2012 10:06:22 PM

I am not sure you realize that
what you heard
is not what I meant.


Meh...Linguistic entropy.
 Kohmelo
Joined: 9/20/2011
Msg: 837
view profile
History
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/7/2012 4:13:28 PM


even though your definition is an incorrect one. ;)


I think you need a dictionary for Christmas;

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocrite


1 : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
2 : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings


I'm neither virtuous nor religious, nor do I act in contradiction of my stated beliefs. However, you have offered up the idea of the dark ages being a positive but when I offered you to partake in a regular act from the dark ages, you've refused. That's hypocritical, definition #2.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 838
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/7/2012 4:39:54 PM

there were still more advances in technology that came out of the dark ages, and that was my fact. my statements weren't hypocritical they were factual, and my view that Christianity was positive was my take.

So they why did they call them the dark ages?

I heard it had something to do with the concept of a period of intellectual darkness and economic regression that supposedly occurred in Europe following the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, but maybe I am wrong and you can enlighten me.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 839
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/7/2012 4:52:35 PM

Google is a hell of a drug ;P

I will take it over the smack they are pushing with the bible any day.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 840
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/7/2012 5:11:07 PM

first, says who i believe the bible?..

No idea, as it was not me who insinuated you did, but if you feel you need to defend yourself from something you have not been accused of, please help yourself.




and second, your not even coming close to making an intelligent enough statement for me to argue with,..

Really?

Your attempts to make your case:
there were still more advances in technology that came out of the dark ages, and that was my fact. my statements weren't hypocritical they were factual, and my view that Christianity was positive was my take.
moose ears, wiggly fingers ... lol

&
Google is a hell of a drug ;P

and you are claiming that my post are not making and intelligent enough statement?




...so this will be my last response to anything you post, unless it requires me to use my noodle ;)

That's probably a good idea as it was clear you could not make a single point.
 Kohmelo
Joined: 9/20/2011
Msg: 841
view profile
History
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/7/2012 6:15:44 PM


moose ears, wiggly fingers ... lol


Did you even read that link?
The first item they credit is gunpowder which was invented in China
Then they credit windmills... 1st century AD in Greece
Then spectacles - you have 1!
Mechanical clocks - wooo! Some ancient Greek water clocks had gears in em, but let's not count those
Water wheels - 3rd century BC
Building techniques, citing gothic style castles - no doubt impressive, but also breeding grounds for disease
And don't forget the orgies!

Losses include basic astronomy, democracy, personal hygene, running water, roads, sewers as well as a reduced rate of literacy and education.
Sure, they had a few advances, but they should have had a lot more. Instead of celebrating Gallileo's evidence that the Earth revolves around the sun, they called him a heretic and place him under life-long house arrest... now that's progress!
 Demigod1979
Joined: 12/4/2011
Msg: 842
view profile
History
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/7/2012 7:05:19 PM
You know, this whole side-discussion (if you can call it a discussion) reminds me of something Professor Bart Ehrman said. He described a survey among academics to see who they thought was the person with the greastest influence on western culture. The result is a surprising one: Alexander the Great. This is because Alexander was responsible for spreading Greek culture all over the world, which they see as the cornerstone of western culture.

I agree with this assessment as well. Basically, I see our modern society as a continuation of the Greek tradition, and I would like to think that if it wasn't for the Dark Ages we would be a far better place today. It's also strange to think that without Muslim scholars those Greek traditions might have been lost altogether (one of the great sins of Christianity). With the rebirth of democracy, science and critical/skeptical thinking we've exploded in technology, going from biplanes to supersonic stealth jet fighters in just a hundred years (not to mention landing on the moon and investigating the deepest reaches of the solar system). Similar advances have been made in computers, medicine, physics, biology (in fact, virtually every field of knowledge).

This is not to discount the various scientific discoveries made by religious people, but it's important to note that their scientific discoveries weren't principally inspired by religion. Gregor Mendel did not come up with his theory on genetic inheritance by reading the bible or prayer, he did it by experimentation. The same goes for Isaac Newton, who worked out the natural laws of gravitation and motion scientifically, with no help from the bible. In fact, I have never heard of a scientist, then or now, claiming that they developed their theory principally through the bible or their religious beliefs, NONE.
 RDA7272
Joined: 1/11/2012
Msg: 843
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/12/2012 12:08:25 AM
ARROGANCE 12:13--If you think as though non belief in a violent threatning sexist pansy is wrong or immoral or evil, its obvious that thinking is NOT your strong suit :)

DRAMA 4:17--Its just 'gods' way of testing us. Its just gods way of fooling us. Its just gods way of.......trickster? drama queen? Responsible also for the elegance of evolution...really?? :)

VIEWS 3:5--Religious view: If there is no God then where do we get our morals? Translation: I would give into sexual desires with children and kill everybody if it wasnt against guidelines from the word of god, I'm a lunatic, I cant do it on my own, I need god to discipline me becasue Im naughty, I wont and/or cant hold myself accountable, and Im dismissive of reason regardless of life experience, education and evidence, becasue "god did it", "its gods will", "god works in mysterious ways","he has always been here, it says it in the bible" , "who are you to question gods will".....Such a witty bunch:)

VIEWS 4:6--Religious view: If there is no god, then life has no purpose. What is the purpose of life if there is no god? Science response: What is the color of anxiety in the morning since its a statistical improbability there is a god? Just because we can ask a question, doesnt mean that question is valid or deserves consideration. Purpose comes from intuition, instinct and intellect. Would stop donating to food drives or the clothing drives, just because you evolved and outgrew an outdated belief? :)

WAKEUP 5:8--Our beliefs inspire and create our world. The devisiveness and hypocracy of religious beliefs only make sense in a small ignorant world. If you were wondering what size our world is now, its a lot bigger, more beautiful, magical, and inspirational than the respect that it is currently given with religious views running the show. Lets allow the big kids to take over from here and those who desire, go read your holy binky and go night night :)

DRAMA 6:24--Hey lazy, why not just make 2 of each creature again after your temper tantrum, instead of the whole ark drama? All knowing seems more all sissy :)
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 844
view profile
History
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/12/2012 10:33:44 AM
1335:

haha! nice read...
 OldSpice48
Joined: 9/17/2011
Msg: 845
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/14/2012 10:45:47 PM
Christians blew it when they started trying to compete with science on its own ground. All these Christian apologists with their debunked claims of Intelligent Design, irreducible complexity, dinosaurs co-existing with humans, bla, bla, bla, … They were much better off when they only used faith as their defense. You can’t argue with faith when it’s presented as just that. People are entitled to their beliefs, even if they’re not factually based or able to be scientifically proven.

You know, so many of these scientific debates & arguments with Christians could be avoided (although I know most of you enjoy them) or headed off at the pass by a very simple fact: The prerequisite for any discussion about God or Christianity or Intelligent Design etc.. is for believers to first prove scientifically that God exists. This hasn't been done. The bottom line is they have no empirical / scientific proof of God's existence. Until they do, there's no point Christians trying to argue with Atheists about anything involving God.

"Empirical / scientific proof of God's existence" doesn't mean philosophical or fallacious logical arguments, or scientific proof of other things like PLACES in the Bible. Scientific proof means giving the link to a recognized scientific journal that's published a scientific study, conducted by scientists, using the scientific method & empirical evidence, & peer-reviewed, directly proving the existence of God... No such thing exists.

The other ploy that Christians mistakenly use is to try & turn the tables & say "the onus is on you Atheists to DISprove the existence of God." Well, lol, it doesn't work like that. You can't disprove the existence of something that hasn’t been proven in the first place. Christians that use this tactic are committing the logical fallacy of "demanding negative proof". And just because you can't disprove something, doesn't mean it exists. That does not constitute proof of existence. Otherwise we'd be arguing over Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, Vishnu, Zeus, etc... For a good explanation of this, look up "The Celestial Teapot".

So once again, the prerequisite for any discussion about God or Christianity or Intelligent Design etc... is for believers to first prove scientifically that God exists.
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 847
view profile
History
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/15/2012 1:21:20 AM
1339:

We don't argue against god, or religion really, just because it's a hobby we enjoy, and it's not something that should be avoided. We encourage discussions on the subject because of the evil that religion does. We are fighting against the damage and destruction it causes to the individual and society.

It's inevitable that religion eventually have to compete with science on it's own ground, because what that really means is that it gets harder and harder for religion to hide and not be accountable. More and more the disfunction of being religious is revealed when society or the individual generally matures and learns more as human understanding progresses, so religion stands out more and more as the juvenile delinquent that it is. The religious apologetics of each generation is more like the whining lying excuse-making ramblings of a spoiled brat who's been caught doing something for which he should have his A** kicked all the way to the curb.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 848
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/15/2012 6:12:23 AM
It is the absolute absurdity of the positions of many of them that bothers me. Rather than rationally adapt their learned (programmed?) beliefs to accord with more rational belief, they will doggedly start a dogfight over their absurd dogma.

e.g. They might assert that with our finite and childlike minds, we are too puny to even stand a hope in hell of understanding the Mind, Ways, or Mysteries of God; then they'll proceed to tell us exactly what He thinks, why He thinks that, and that there is nothing mysterious about it. It seems the only time things get a little mysterious is when God didn't do what the faithful expected, like saving their newborn baby.

On killing witches or other Canaanites because God told them to, they might rationalize the murder of innocents with something like a Mystery of God, but the basic attitude is that "Hey…He's God…He can do what He wants with His creations." Noting that they are only doing His (presumed) Will by running them thru, or using them as blood sacrifices.
 OldSpice48
Joined: 9/17/2011
Msg: 849
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/15/2012 11:12:00 AM
It's also disturbing that the USA is one of the last bastions of Christianity, & fundamentalism. Turkey is apparently the only other country in the world besides the USA where evolution is not generally accepted. And they're mostly Muslim there I believe. Why is the USA so stuck on Christianity? It's ironic, because it;s also been responsible for many of the advancements of our age, & influenced popular western culture.

If you've watched Bill Maher's documentary-style movie "Religulous" (a play on the word "ridiculous"), there's one memorable scene where he's interviewing a senator, & Bill poses the question, should the public feel safe knowing that a politician they trust & put their lives in the hands of, believes in talking snakes? Lol, it's a good point, really...
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 850
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/18/2012 10:35:53 AM

I need some people to pray for my neighbor. He borrowed my power drill last summer & still has not returned it, even though I have asked several times. He is a jerk & I am fed up. I wish he would get run over by a bus. Please help me pray that he gets run over by a bus. Thank you very much.

You need someone like Joe Pesci, not God, however if you haven't got the funds for a righteous wrath by Joe, you might consider going to a voodoo witch doctor for a proper curse…It is my understanding that those guys have a better track record than God (but not as good as Joe Pesci's) for "getting the job done."


I’m glad I’m Christian.

Me too; you sound a bit too nasty to be an atheist (or at least you would be, if I wasn't sure you were jus' kiddin').
 Kohmelo
Joined: 9/20/2011
Msg: 851
view profile
History
Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design
Posted: 8/18/2012 12:29:56 PM


The atheist / evolutionist idea that dinosaurs evolved into people is ludicrous to say the least. I can't believe you atheists are so gullible. And when was the last time you saw a fish crawl onto land & start walking, uh? Never, that's right. What a load of crap! Praise God Almighty, for He is the Creator of everything.

These posts are hysterically funny. Keep it up!
Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Evolution vs Creationism/Intelligent Design