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Show ALL Forums  > Relationships  > I don't want a relationship between equals. There, I said it.      Home login  
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 gentleplus
Joined: 9/8/2008
Msg: 76
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I don't want a relationship between equals. There, I said it.Page 4 of 9    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)

If we went by the supposition that people seek out those who are smarter, then smart people would have nothing to do with those less intelligent--they would be seeking the super-geniuses!


That is not exactly true.... let me try to explain it this way.... as a man we seem to have an energy to create, conquer, invent, lead, etc.... part of that energy is the desire to propagate ourselves in others... one way is to sire children.... but another and equally validating to a man is to sire intellectual children or engage a mentoring process...

My entire life I have been part of a mentoring where I was receiving input from a wiser (not always older) male (sometimes female) who I respected for observed success in life.... I also sought out a student to receive my mentoring usually younger (not always)

The process of mentoring is not some great wise intellect imposing ideas and beliefs on another but a dynamic of giving information and the validation and challenge by another intellect that refines and improves the original message content to a greater purpose for both.... so that the teacher actually becomes the greater student...


yes, i can relate. and as a matter of fact i like the submissive alpha female tagline that one of our very smart and witty ladies posted. as long as a man can relate to that, wear the pants, challenge me, and pull my hair every once in a while then i'd say yes, i can relate. i don't want to plan the date, and i don't want the man to cook me dinner. while i don't want a door mat, i am not looking for someone to "take care of me." i don't want someone that is emotionally, or physically abusive, as i am not. i also don't need to be rescued, and i am not in distress...i would, however, be willing to pretend that i was if that would make my man happy...

it's the simple things in life...


This perfectly states the balanced mentoring between the genders in a healthy respectful dynamic !!!!
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 77
I don't want a relationship between equals. There, I said it.
Posted: 10/12/2011 7:56:30 AM

The only thing observing my family/relatives does prove to me is that it *can* work, and work well. It can also fail freaking spectacularly.


Ah, but mon ami, even abusive relationships work, don't they? A sadistic person who bullies a masochist have the perfect relationship, do they not?


Well, think of all the things someone brighter overall could help you accomplish?


A man who has an IQ of 200 but is intelligent in the field of physics is not going to help me accomplish much in finishing my book about the Roman god Mithra. In fact, I have an online friend (whom I have "known" for well over five years) who has a PhD in science--he is a brilliant man, smarter than I am, and I rarely say that. Last night, I sent him the introductory chapter to said book. He gave me some suggestions on editing it, but he couldn't comment on the content because it isn't his field!


There goes my monumental masculinity... It's the tails, Gwen, those nightmarishly twitching fluffy tails...


I will continue to fight the squirrel scourge by myself.


Now that's just plumb unrealistic! And the super-geniuses would be seeking out...superior intelligence on other worlds? There is something of a reductio ad absurdum to the idea, isn't there?


That was my point.

I don't know how many people in this forum have ever attended a "function" for academics. (Yes, I know that I am being elitist, again.) I presented a paper at a convention, but because it was about Virginia Woolf, I was put in the Modernist section--I am not a Modernist critic! The audience understood the points that I was making in my paper, but when it came time for questions, they started asking me about other writers of the genre. I replied, "I am not really a Modernist: I am a mythologist. I analyze Woolf's book for its mythic aspects." They all nodded and knew EXACTLY what I meant. Even within disciplines, there are sections and subsections.


Isn't it sad to come this far and realize that all the equality talk between the sexes is pure horseshyt?

Thanks to the feminist movement, we exchanged our femininity for equality that doesn't exist, and independence that makes us too demanding for a man to love. Yippee, I get to sit on my porch and die alone because I can't open the damn jar of peanut butter.


I am a feminist and I have sacrificed NONE of my femininity for equality. I feel a bit of pity for women who blame their inability to attract men on the women's movement or their independence. If a woman doesn't want to be "independent," she doesn't have to be--the number of men in this forum alone who seek dependent women show that their are mates for everyone.

So, why aren't the men who want dependent women not matching up with those women who want a man to take care of them? I don't get it.


Speak for yourself about being too demanding and being unable to be loved. If the only reason a man cant love me is because I have the ability to make my own decisions and will not automatically defer to his "manliness" then I dont want that man any where near me. It is frankly amazing that an intelligent woman would even try to make this sort of a connection to her inablity to have a relationship and feminism. Nice try though....



i would, however, be willing to pretend that i was if that would make my man happy...


No offense, but do you mean that you would lie in order to satisfy the want of a man?

In response to my post about seeking more intelligent people:
That is not exactly true.... let me try to explain it this way.... as a man we seem to have an energy to create, conquer, invent, lead, etc.... part of that energy is the desire to propagate ourselves in others... one way is to sire children.... but another and equally validating to a man is to sire intellectual children or engage a mentoring process...

My entire life I have been part of a mentoring where I was receiving input from a wiser (not always older) male (sometimes female) who I respected for observed success in life.... I also sought out a student to receive my mentoring usually younger (not always)

The process of mentoring is not some great wise intellect imposing ideas and beliefs on another but a dynamic of giving information and the validation and challenge by another intellect that refines and improves the original message content to a greater purpose for both.... so that the teacher actually becomes the greater student...


You are mistaking the intent of my post and, I think, mistaking the intent of the person who said that she likes to be around people who are smarter than she is.

You said you were receiving input from a "wiser" person, and wisdom does not equate with intelligence. I have known very smart people who didn't seem to have a lick of wisdom, and I have met people with average IQs who were very wise.

As a teacher, I know that some of my students are "smarter" than I am in raw IQ, but they have less experience and less knowledge. When I have sought out a mentor, i.e. my thesis director, it was for what he knew as a result of studying for decades; I also knew that he would push me to produce a quality work. Maybe his IQ was higher than mine, maybe not--it didn't matter because I wanted his expertise in the field.

Perhaps we need to qualify and define "intelligence" and separate it from knowledge.

By the way, most IQ tests do not measure raw IQ but rather, the knowledge of the person. I ace the sections on art, literature, and ancient history, do passably well on science, but bomb the math. When I took the GRE the first time, I also bombed the logic section because it had questions such as "If wibbles are wobbles and wobbles have blue hair, do wibbles have ten toes?" When I took the test again, the logic section had been changed to essay questions solving a problem in a given scenario. Suddenly, I became logical because of the change of venue and received a high score.

My intelligence (my ability to learn and assimilate information) has not truly grown since my mind matured; however, my knowledge base has increased a hundredfold.
 gentleplus
Joined: 9/8/2008
Msg: 78
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I don't want a relationship between equals. There, I said it.
Posted: 10/12/2011 8:08:51 AM

i would, however, be willing to pretend that i was if that would make my man happy...

No offense, but do you mean that you would lie in order to satisfy the want of a man?


We often participate in and watch things like plays, movies, Halloween, etc

Are these experiences lies perpetrated by liars ????

When I am in a secure, balanced, healthy, respectful, and mutual relationship a little bit of fantasy or play acting can be fun and validating way to explore new emotions and experiences beyond pure vanilla..... If it is a total lifestyle.... it is potentially unbalanced and unproductive for both persons...
 _shakti_
Joined: 7/5/2011
Msg: 79
I don't want a relationship between equals. There, I said it.
Posted: 10/12/2011 8:23:05 AM
^^ But if that's what you need to feel strong, then..... oh my.
 ForumFlashLight
Joined: 5/16/2011
Msg: 80
I don't want a relationship between equals. There, I said it.
Posted: 10/12/2011 9:06:58 AM
tiptoe, tiptoe...

just the OP sneaking back into the thread.

Y'all have made this such a fascinating thread, I just wanted to say that.

Respectful and yet challenging each other.

I think a few intellectual crushes have bloomed as well, always fun to see.

And no gender war (yet)

I think in the future I know what I'm looking for in a relationship of differences fitting together.

For now I'm really happy working on my relationship with myself. I am after all the best person for that job.

You guys keep right on having fun.
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 81
I don't want a relationship between equals. There, I said it.
Posted: 10/12/2011 3:09:40 PM

We often participate in and watch things like plays, movies, Halloween, etc

Are these experiences lies perpetrated by liars ????

When I am in a secure, balanced, healthy, respectful, and mutual relationship a little bit of fantasy or play acting can be fun and validating way to explore new emotions and experiences beyond pure vanilla..... If it is a total lifestyle.... it is potentially unbalanced and unproductive for both persons...


If the woman who made the remark about pretending to be helpless if it pleased her partner meant in a role playing aspect, she didn't specify it; because it was not specified and in the context that we have been discussing, I don't think she was referring to a fantasy. Perhaps she will clarify.

When I have witnessed women pretending to be helpless, it was to either stroke a man's ego or a deliberate act for a specific gain.


However, what I meant by "work" was more in accord with the conventional standards of happiness:


But my dear Virtually, who are we to decide or judge what other people do? What are conventional standards of happiness? Who sets the standards?


Seriously, point taken. Intelligence has practical applications rooted in knowledge and taste. And a brilliant scientist could easily be a mediocre writer or worse, regardless of his taste in gods. Unless he worships, say, fauns or something. That's just sick.


Spot on! And who would worship a faun? Pan was pretty masculine, though.


Just a logic-question: If you can be a feminist, can I not also be a masculinist? Hey, I kinda like the way that rolls of my tongue! And if I'm a "masculinist" and you're a "feminist," what happens when we get together? A matter-anti-matter detonation that ends the universe as we know it??


If "masculinist" means promoting equality for men and women, I am for it. Men have been in charge for the last few thousand years, though (at least old, white men have), and there are still those who do not want to acknowledge women as equals. "Feminist" has become associated or defined as women who hate men, but that simply isn't true: a feminist is a person wanting equal rights for women. I have known many male feminists.

A woman who hates men is misguided. Men who treat or view women in certain ways are also misguided.


That's an interesting question about why men who want dependent women not matching up those women who claim to want that.


I can tell you why they don't match up: the men want hot, sexy, beautiful women and the women want hard-bodied, sexy, rich men. I have seen it over and over in these forums! Men and women who both disparage "equal" right and feminism just keep griping and complaining--they don't even seem to notice the members of the opposite sex who agree with them (or not unless they are good-looking).

I have also seen men who disparage feminists complain about gold-digging women! So, a woman is supposed to be pregnant, barefooted, and in the kitchen making a pie but when she expects the man to support her, she is just out for his money.

And I am not snobby about IQ--I would date a guy of a lesser IQ (down to about 115).
(Evil grin.)
 rearguard*2
Joined: 2/8/2008
Msg: 82
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I don't want a relationship between equals. There, I said it.
Posted: 10/13/2011 5:07:31 AM
Male authority in the home????
Submissive women????

What concepts! Never realized that Afghanistan was the only place you could find that. Think I will move to.....where dis y'all say I could find that??????
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 83
I don't want a relationship between equals. There, I said it.
Posted: 10/13/2011 6:12:04 AM

I won't hear a bad word about fauns. They eat everything they're offered and don't even turn their noses up at barbed wire for lunch. And they're very helpful with directions and play lovely music. Although I wouldn't like to meet the faun from Pan's Labyrinth. Hell no.


I retract any negative remarks about fauns!

fjn6291, excellent post! Some time back--over a year ago--there was a thread in the forums touting (by men) a Youtube video where a teenager was spouting off about how she hated feminism; in that area, she included breast cancer awareness! She said that she was "sick" of hearing about breast cancer. Many, but my no means all, of the men on the forum were expounding on what a smart "girl" she was--and she was a girl, not a woman.

She had no clue. As she was sitting before the camera, prettily pouting, I thought of how if not for feminism, she wouldn't be making a video--it would have been frowned upon--like women driving cars. She wouldn't have an education, and she would be wearing a dowdy dress instead of jeans and a t-shirt.

However, I have the idea that when she has a boyfriend and when she finally marries, she will not be content to be a silent partner, complicit. I could not imagine her ever shutting up.


Male authority in the home????
Submissive women????

What concepts! Never realized that Afghanistan was the only place you could find that. Think I will move to.....where dis y'all say I could find that????


Rearguard, just read all the posts by women in this thread: you will be able to spot the ones who are looking to be dominated.

Sorry, though: I am an uppity woman.
 ForumFlashLight
Joined: 5/16/2011
Msg: 84
I don't want a relationship between equals. There, I said it.
Posted: 10/13/2011 7:06:26 AM
OK, here it comes again.

Women who want to argue with women over how to be women in the "right" way.

Women who label others "anti-feminist" if they want something different in a relationship than the labellers would like.

Thought feminism was about choice, myself, and all of us having choice.

I'm just wondering who I'm supposed to appreciate, or submit to, or be humble with for all my rights as an American citizen who is a woman. (hmmm, there are lots of people who started this historical movement into the country we have today, and none of them were feminists, because they didn't exist in those centuries. Well, I think Queen Isabella could be thanked for bankrolling Columbus! but then, darn, she was born into her status too.)

I doubt anyone in this thread or on POF in general did anything to earn their legal rights in America except be born into them. I don't think Gloria Steinem or Betty Friedan is on this thread. Nor are there any Congresswomen here who can take credit.

I don't think any of you labellers can spot a real live feminist when you're chatting with one, if she happens to disagree with you, or want something different than you do in a relationship with a man.

I really didn't earn any right to serve in the military; it was an opportunity, and I went and earned the opportunity to serve.

I did not notice any labellers sweating beside me in boot camp!

I think I would have no trouble being accepted as a feminist if I simply announced that I liked to be whipped and tied up with chains, (which I don't) because that would simply be seen as a sexual fetish to explore social roles.

But by golly, I don't submit to these women and change my thinking to suit theirs, and I get labelled as an "anti-feminist."

Irishgirl on this thread simply stated her preferences for living with a man, and she was called "stupid" by another woman.

"Stupid" for wanting what she wants, within her cultural milieu, and yet everywhere on this website, POFfers will defend anyone's right to want what they want, anyone's right to have preferences, and they will sharply correct anyone calling someone's preferences "stupid."

Yet somehow, if you call yourself a feminist, you have some kind of carte blanche to call other women names and degrade them for their preferences.

If you are another woman and you have preferences in your relationship with a man that differ from mine, I don't even care. It's your life. You are free to live it.

I would and I have defended your right to live free.

I guess that doesn't make me a feminist though, to believe in freedom.
 WanderingRain
Joined: 3/9/2008
Msg: 85
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I don't want a relationship between equals. There, I said it.
Posted: 10/13/2011 10:24:52 PM
A lot of times, people view themselves and relationships in terms they could measure or count when in fact almost nothing can be measured or counted... except money. But even that is a fiction.
Who works harder? The man who earns the money or his wife who takes care of the kids at home? What she does has a "monetary value" as well. How do you quantify that? yet a lot of people measure their lives in terms of money and possessions.

In mere seconds, the value of anything can radically change. A storm can reduce a million dollar home to a pile of lumber. A teenager can be a millionaire overnight with the right website... fortunes change and wane. What doesn't is the people and who you are.

If you value yourself as a person and your partner as a true person of real worth, then both of you are equally valuable in your own unique ways --just not quantifiable in the usual sense.
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 86
I don't want a relationship between equals. There, I said it.
Posted: 10/14/2011 6:44:48 AM


Women who want to argue with women over how to be women in the "right" way.

Women who label others "anti-feminist" if they want something different in a relationship than the labellers would like.

Thought feminism was about choice, myself, and all of us having choice.


Feminism IS about having choice, and if you--or any woman/man--makes a choice to be submissive/dominant or combination thereof, that is your and their choice(s). But at its inception, it was primarily for procuring equal rights for women. As for arguing about the "right way" to be a woman, I perceived your first post as rather insulting to women who do seek “equality” in a marriage. In your phrasing and word choice, there was a challenge; the posters in this thread rose to that challenge.

NO one has the right to make your decisions for you, and if you give your decision making rights over to a man, that is your right! But your original post, in my opinion, was slightly tainted with disdain and the belief that equality in a relationship cannot exist. I also cannot understand why people do not simply do what they want to do without inviting criticism or seeking approbation from others.


(hmmm, there are lots of people who started this historical movement into the country we have today, and none of them were feminists, because they didn't exist in those centuries. Well, I think Queen Isabella could be thanked for bankrolling Columbus! but then, darn, she was born into her status too.)


Strong women have always existed, but if you want to discuss the historical implementation of feminism, start with mostly anonymous female writers of the Renaissance who protested against commonly held ideas about women. They were mostly anonymous (or used pseudonyms) because they feared backlash, including physical punishment (it was legal). Nope, they weren't called "feminists"; in fact, they were mostly called derogatory names because they claimed that women were intelligent, should have rights, and were not intrinsically evil.

Move on to Mary Wollstonecraft Godwin (Mary Shelley's mother) who wrote "A Vindication for the Rights of Women." Her supposition was that women should be educated and have certain rights, but her view was mainly from the point that wives of educated men need to be educated in order to be able to converse with their husbands. She is often labeled the "first" feminist, but there were others before her who advocated the same things.


I doubt anyone in this thread or on POF in general did anything to earn their legal rights in America except be born into them. I don't think Gloria Steinem or Betty Friedan is on this thread. Nor are there any Congresswomen here who can take credit.


I don’t understand your point. Women fought for MY rights as a woman before I was born, and I am thankful that they did. Because many of those rights were established prior to my "coming of age" does not lessen my "ability" to be or my status as a feminist. This is akin to saying that Americans can't truly be Americans because they were born 200+ years after the Revolution was fought. I did nothing to earn the rights in the Constitution.

While my actions can in no way equal those of women--and men--who preceded me, I am an educator and I strive to promote equality for ALL humans. My students often do not realize that the status of women in the past was as bleak as it was, and in my literature classes, we explore these aspects--we also explore aspects of people of color, the poor, and other strata of societies.


I really didn't earn any right to serve in the military; it was an opportunity, and I went and earned the opportunity to serve.


I still don't see the point that you are trying to make--you might not have "earned" the right to be in the military, but you certainly took the right that was offered to you.


I did not notice any labellers sweating beside me in boot camp!


This has nothing to do with the conversation at hand.


If you are another woman and you have preferences in your relationship with a man that differ from mine, I don't even care. It's your life. You are free to live it.


I agree, but back to my first post--why create a thread? I am living my life as I choose and have no need to begin a thread stating those preferences (though I certainly discuss my preferences in my answers). No offense, OP, but it seems that the opinions of others do play a part in your choices!


I would and I have defended your right to live free.

I guess that doesn't make me a feminist though, to believe in freedom.


I did not serve in the military, but I have and continue to defend the right of all people to be free. We all have different ways of "serving," and I am sure that you would not disparage a woman who chose a different way of promoting freedom of choice, would you?


There is no other standard-setting authority that I know of (unless you're thinking God/Jesus/Mithra/Oprah or whatever).


Then even the sado/masochistic people are not to be judged!


We're discussing esthetics. At its base, as Startled pointed out above me, feminism is about women having the same right to choose as men. The point of contention is what some women freely choose.


I will agree with you on that point. As I stated in my above response to the OP, we all have the right to choose . . . or do we? Would we stop the sadist from beating the masochist?


Seriously, for me it's not about dominance or being smarter or whathaveyou. It's about being needed, appreciated, and respected. It's about being with someone who enjoys and "feels" my masculinity - someone who likes "manness" as it is manifested in me. It's about being accepted for me (high heels, wigs, and all;-). It's about being willing to do the dishes


A note of warning: some women on this thread will lose respect for you if you wash the dishes.

I'm old, and I remember women of my mother's generation who truly suffered in their unequal marriages. I remember the mother of a friend who told me that when she was young and worked, she handed her paycheck over to her husband every week, and he would give her money when she needed it. It was her choice to stay with the man (he later left her for another woman), and she gave her personal power over to him--yup, she would have preferred to have more autonomy with the money she earned, but it was the man's place to handle the money.

People also misunderstand the use of the word "equality" when applied to women and men. We are equal under the law, but that doesn't equate sameness: I do not want to emulate men and as I stated before, I wouldn't date a feminine man, but those are my choices.
 jmmevolve
Joined: 12/16/2010
Msg: 87
I don't want a relationship between equals. There, I said it.
Posted: 10/14/2011 8:35:15 AM
You have certainly not been in a relationship where you were honored and cherished as you did the same. Being someone else's priority and giving them that back is just one of the things that can not be begged, borrowed or stolen - it is there and earned in the relationship romance and chemistry.

Equality in love is about being yourself as they are themselves and it working as a fit set.
 jmmevolve
Joined: 12/16/2010
Msg: 88
I don't want a relationship between equals. There, I said it.
Posted: 10/14/2011 9:01:10 AM
No, I haven't figured out the dating thing here on POF, but then I was a teenager when last I dated and sought out a lover.

BTW for those seeking money and/or looks - you might remember that all can fade with age. So keep a sense of humor it will be needed in the end game.

Looks are in the eye of the beholder. I look at pictures, if one is posted, and my taste would probably not match others taste, but it is what I feel drawn to. Hence the sub sets under POF of seniors, BBW, and any other they can think to open.
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 89
I don't want a relationship between equals. There, I said it.
Posted: 10/14/2011 3:33:11 PM

Can you say Hypatia?


Yes, I can! I can also say Enheduanna, Sappho, and Aphra Behn.


Yeah, G, there was certainly a note of defiance in Startled's opening salvo, but in all fairness, she had good reason to expect to be slammed for her romantic preferences.


Defiance begets defiance. I would not poke a nest of hornets with a stick and not expect to get stung. Again, why even bother to start a thread about one's personal preferences? I also go the idea it wasn't about just romantic preferences.


To sum up my position: I believe in equality under the law, but not necessarily under the sheets.


I do not "believe" in equality under the sheets but I insist upon it. If I do not get what I want, he ain't [sic] getting what he wants.

How people go about getting what they want is their business--until they make it the business of others, that is.
 Fleuron
Joined: 8/18/2010
Msg: 90
I don't want a relationship between equals. There, I said it.
Posted: 10/14/2011 4:12:23 PM

If I do not get what I want, he ain't [sic] getting what he wants.


My experience… when I give him what he wants I get what I want. Often it’s wonderfully simultaneous.

Better to me that we both win, than both lose.
 _shakti_
Joined: 7/5/2011
Msg: 91
I don't want a relationship between equals. There, I said it.
Posted: 10/14/2011 4:38:47 PM
I think equality outside of the sheets, manifests in a very compelling way underneath of them..

As does the inverse.

Some people get off on a certain amount of polarity, like dominant/submissive roles.. which can become rather black and white and calcified. While others are more of a 'switch' and seem to seek a certain dynamic balance.. which is realistically as close to equality as any of us are going to get. Jmo mind you.
 cooldog65
Joined: 6/27/2011
Msg: 92
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History
I don't want a relationship between equals. There, I said it.
Posted: 10/14/2011 5:52:47 PM
@Fleuron: I would call that WINNING!
 gentleplus
Joined: 9/8/2008
Msg: 93
view profile
History
I don't want a relationship between equals. There, I said it.
Posted: 10/14/2011 7:51:57 PM
G said...
"Men have been in charge for the last few thousand years, though (at least old, white men have), and there are still those who do not want to acknowledge women as equals."

Interesting note of divorce rates of Asian, African and Muslim countries compared to the western "equality" nations

see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divorce_demography

Does gender equality make more or less divorce rates???? Just asking...

ps.... I am all FOR gender equality.... Gender police ...please don't write me a ticket for gender PC violations
 _shakti_
Joined: 7/5/2011
Msg: 94
I don't want a relationship between equals. There, I said it.
Posted: 10/14/2011 7:54:57 PM
Virtually:
I'm reading a book now which you might possibly enjoy - Journey of the Heart by John Welwood - who sees the most successful couples in a kind of dynamic dance on what he calls the "razor's edge" - where they takes turns focusing and unfocusing on each other, pulling away and coming together...on a path of personal and relational development and growth.

He likens a relationship to a tightrope walker - pointing out that a static stance will throw him or her off the rope, while movement to one side and then the other creates balance that allows him to move forward. I liked that analogy.
That is a great analogy! So is the dance..

That static stance that you mention is relational death to me. Some people flat out refuse to grow, and imo that creates those polarized and calcified relationship roles. Where you walk in and automatically know your script (should you choose to accept)

To some that is equality, because they know the roles from the outset, all the lines and boundaries are drawn.. all you have to do is add your half to the already 'equalized equation' (set down by societal/familial norms). Any step outside of this creates chaos and havoc in the relationship.. the two must scramble to find the blueprint again. *shudder* Not for me!

To me equality is all about maintaining a dynamic balance between two unique beings. Instead of following some pre-scripted blueprint, the aim is to co-create as you go.. more of a mutual discovery, than obedience to some preconceived precept. If that makes sense?

Or have you already read this book?
I have quite a library going, so that's a good assumption, lol.. but I've not read that one. I'll definitely have a peek, thanks!
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 95
I don't want a relationship between equals. There, I said it.
Posted: 10/15/2011 7:28:58 AM

My experience… when I give him what he wants I get what I want. Often it’s wonderfully simultaneous.


I was married for 25 years--this did not always work.


G said...
"Men have been in charge for the last few thousand years, though (at least old, white men have), and there are still those who do not want to acknowledge women as equals."

Interesting note of divorce rates of Asian, African and Muslim countries compared to the western "equality" nations


Oh, so now anybody can call me "G"? (Grin.)

Consider marriages in Muslim nations--women are subjugated and suppressed, told what to wear and barred from many activities. In fact, a woman in Saudi Arabia was arrested for driving a car. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/26/saudi-arabia-women-driving_n_981351.html

Should women in the US start wearing burkas so that the divorce rate will go down? I can't speak about divorce in Asian countries, but given that baby girls are still killed or abandoned at birth because families want boys, draw your own conclusions.

Personally, I do not see anything wrong with divorce. I saw my mother stay in a very unhappy marriage because she didn't believe in divorce for religious reasons. Her plight was not an anomaly. Considering that most divorces are initiated by women, it would appear that now, women who are unhappy do not stay as often as did my mother.

Isn't it better to leave a bad marriage than to stay and try to make it work? Speaking from personal experience and from the high number of marriages ended by women, I would say yes, it is better to go.
 _shakti_
Joined: 7/5/2011
Msg: 96
I don't want a relationship between equals. There, I said it.
Posted: 10/15/2011 8:46:58 AM
Ruby:
Yes but every successful relationship has an element of predictability in its structure. Parent/child, boss/worker, husband/wife, friends - we use the framework of how we think these relationships work and then add our own touch to them.
No, I don't use a framework, I develop my own with the person I am having a relationship with. My relationships with each of my children is unique and different.

To me this is a matter of where you place your focus, on discovery or on following some precept handed down to you. I can tell you that my focus is not the latter.

The "dance" has a basic format, doesn't it?
For me, as I said earlier, the 'basic format' is co-created. If you like yours to be printed out beforehand, allowing you to follow all the steps, there's nothing wrong with that.

It would just never work for me.

To me, equality means growth.
That was my entire point in the post you are responding to, lol.. perhaps we see it differently?

If I fall in love with my intellectual equal who has the same basic understanding of how a great relationship works, then the dance will be on the razor's edge.
I don't think being on the same level as someone intellectually prevents growth, if that is what you mean here?
 Fleuron
Joined: 8/18/2010
Msg: 97
I don't want a relationship between equals. There, I said it.
Posted: 10/15/2011 2:39:56 PM
Me:

My experience… when I give him what he wants I get what I want. Often it’s wonderfully simultaneous.

Better to me that we both win, than both lose.


VirtuallyLove:

My feeling is that both members of a couple can either both win or both lose.


Isn’t that what I posted, that I prefer we both win? Why do you appear to be arguing your agreement with me? My post was in response to an “under the sheets” comment, and probably be better understood by following the thread.

I can appreciate discussing possibilities and ideas, but I’m not one who will post and respond forever dissecting the simplest of concepts.

My most basic point: mutual respect, mutual giving, mutual satisfaction.

Gwendolyn2010:


I was married for 25 years--this did not always work.


I’m sorry.

I was married for 15 years, and it rarely worked, because he was a selfish lover, and generally, a lousy lay. Luckily, I’ve moved on and chosen much better partners since then.
 rose//42
Joined: 4/19/2008
Msg: 98
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History
I don't want a relationship between equals. There, I said it.
Posted: 10/15/2011 4:04:19 PM
I agree with what you say commonsense,and I would also like to add that mutual respect and the willingness to listen to what each other has to say ,even when you disagree is part of the eqaulity for me.
Rose
 larissan04
Joined: 8/11/2011
Msg: 99
I don't want a relationship between equals. There, I said it.
Posted: 10/15/2011 4:44:19 PM
Gentlplus~

"Interesting note of divorce rates of Asian, African and Muslim countries compared to the western "equality" nations"

divorce is not accepted in some of these cultures of which you speak, and many of the marriages are arranged. marriage is seen as more of an alliance between two families, as opposed to two people in love becoming partners. furthermore, women often do not have the legal right to seek a divorce (men can, of course), and if they did, in some countries, women then forfeit parental rights. as a matter of fact, a former prime minister of japan (can't remember his name) had divorced his wife, and as a result, he had full custody of the children. the kids had absolutely no contact with their mother whatsoever. remember, most divorces are instigated by women, and it could very well be that the divorce rate is higher here because women simply have the legal right to divorce thier husbands.
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 100
I don't want a relationship between equals. There, I said it.
Posted: 10/15/2011 4:46:59 PM
VL writes:
Hi, uh...G...? Well, yeah, calling a marriage good because the people stay in it is like calling the former Soviet Union peaceful because all the troublemakers are in gulags.

I wouldn't measure the success of a particular relationship approach merely by longevity, and that certainly isn't my main standard for measuring the success of most of my relative's marriages. What I see is *mostly* a traditional approach in their unions. Only a few of them wear burkas.


My confused friend: NO! I was saying that fewer divorces do not equal more happy marriages! Longevity does not mean that a marriage is or was happy. Somebody said that divorce rates were lower in certain countries where, perhaps, the cultures are more patriarchal, but that does not equate that those marriages are happy.

Fleuron writes:
I’m sorry.


I used to be sorry, but once I moved on from the marriage, it didn't matter any longer. I would never settle for such an arrangement again.
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