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 cooldog65
Joined: 6/27/2011
Msg: 126
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Should i be insulted? Would you be?Page 6 of 9    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)
Men may think she is a gold digger or user, but some women (and I said some!) will say you go girl! It's his job as the man! I applaud the women that don't say our think this!
 cedar77
Joined: 7/17/2006
Msg: 127
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Should i be insulted? Would you be?
Posted: 9/8/2011 12:03:59 AM
If a woman asked a man fir help on rent, getting auto repaired, or handwork for her home, I presume that all would think it's ok.


Wrong!!!!!
men will think that she is a gold digger.


So it is ok that she asks for help , but it is wrong because of what men will think ?

I know that in the past my dates/gf often at least hint around me helping them out in the sort of way listed , and some have come right out and asked . And if it were 6 months they might well be wanting me to be their general contractor ! lol

I think it is a double standard , but that is nothing new .
 MikeWM
Joined: 2/7/2011
Msg: 128
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Posted: 9/8/2011 2:12:04 AM
Oooh this is a real minefield

We always hear about the stereotypical "gold digger" and at the other end of the spectrum is somebody who really doesnt care about money as long as "as a couple" you get by

But between the two is an endless procession of stages not just the two extremes

Women, despite us living under the delusion of being "enlightened" are still brainwashed with stereotypes as are men. But theyre far harder to shake off than most realise which is why theyre still so prevalent

Women are taught quite subtly and subconciously that a "measure" of a man is still as a provider. Even women who consiously see that as ludicrous nowadays can still struggle with it on a subconcious level and even without realising it as subconcious influences tend to manifest as a subtle increase or decrease in feelings with no clear reason why

And its far harder than most people realise to override subconcious drivers with cognitive conscious thoughts. IE, if you stop having feelings for someone because of a subconcious driver, its almost impossible to just logically weigh up their pros and cons on paper and reignite feelings for them however well they fair in the pros and cons list if that makes sense?

Also, if somebody, male or female has had a partner who they felt (whether acurate or not) was a burden to them they will be overly sensitive and critical of even the slightest sign that a new beau might be the same. So it might be worth looking for things like this in her past

Its also worth trying to get her to expand on both her "feelings" (subconcious aspect) and opinions (conscious aspect) of this to get a better understanding of where this came from and what her actual (if any) concerns are about it

But if it is subconciously driven and your finances arent likely to change any time soon then as much as I hate to say it the future doesnt look promising as the common tendency is that once a thought is started it will tend to fester, and even things that havent bothered her before on this issue will grow in "significance" over time and are quite likely to kill this stone dead eventually

Best of luck though
 MikeWM
Joined: 2/7/2011
Msg: 129
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Should i be insulted? Would you be?
Posted: 9/8/2011 2:23:09 AM
To the people who reckon its "never" ok to borrow money, Jeez lol :)

People on a low income like described tend to rarely have spare money to save, so the slightest "hiccup" like a car repair, washing machine blowing up or other unexpected thing can cause a short term problem and the key word there is "UNEXPECTED"

To be honest I would be quite wary of any person who couldnt quite get their head around something being UNEXPECTED as it doesnt really bode well for any type of actual relationship or the problems that can often unexpectedly crop up within them

Someone who was "irresponsible" with their finances would have a LOT more money problems than a 1 week shortfall on there rent ONCE in six months, it would be a regular and ongoing thing accompanied by dozens of other bills not being paid and mountains of debt

But to see 1 thing as proof of "irresponsible" behaviour is a really "interesting" sign, red flag or whatever you want to call it and shows no real understanding of what life is like for people who really do live on the bread line

Had this happened a week or a month in then yeah I can see why such a ridiculously over the top type of assumption might have cropped up, Especially if finances had been an "issue" for a person in previous relationships. But once in six months?

Not being nasty here, but personally I would suggest the people who had such an acrimonious response to this thread should take a deep breath, take a step back and look into WHY they had such a reaction to what is in real terms quite a minor occurence as you might have some unresolved issues still lingering from previous failed dalliances lurking in the darkness
 cooldog65
Joined: 6/27/2011
Msg: 130
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Posted: 9/8/2011 2:29:50 AM
Excellent points MikeWM. The subconscious plays such a big role in almost everything we do. It can contribute to bad relationship patterns, bad habits, etc... Usually, this can be traced back to parents/upbringing. Another excellent point on living on that financial edge. All it takes is one disaster. Most posters here probably felt he was playing victim. Tread carefully in the minefield!
 meowsaidthetigress
Joined: 7/9/2011
Msg: 131
Should i be insulted? Would you be?
Posted: 9/8/2011 3:06:40 AM
Yes you guys are right it is a minefield. When I have asked to borrow money (three times my entire life) from my brother due to true life emergencies I first exhausted ALL my resources by selling everything I could including plasma. Knowing this he did help and decided to gift me that assistance because hes a great brother. Why? Cause Im normally too hard headed to ask and will eat rice and beans until I turn into a bag. $100 is not what I constitute as an uncontrolled emergency due to the financial stress of a low income. Its reckless stupidity but thats my opinion because I live a minimalistic lifestyle and conserve to have a savings even on my current low income.

This to me is a sign of irresponsibility with finances I find inexcusable for a man in his forties.
 MikeWM
Joined: 2/7/2011
Msg: 132
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Posted: 9/8/2011 3:22:06 AM
Obviously you dont date then? Or do you like "chivalrous" men who always pay?

And also bearing in mind a man living like you do would struggle to EVER get a date as he would be viewed as simply being "tight" by most women
 meowsaidthetigress
Joined: 7/9/2011
Msg: 133
Should i be insulted? Would you be?
Posted: 9/8/2011 3:38:48 AM
Sir I date often and yes here in the south men tend to prefer to pay. Chivalry is alive and well in southern Americana and they dont like hearing different.

When I am in my home in NY I will pay if I am the one who invited a man out.
Being a minimalist isnt being cheap or tight. It means I have savings even in tough economic times.
 sweetest
Joined: 10/8/2007
Msg: 134
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Posted: 9/8/2011 4:47:23 AM

Not being nasty here, but personally I would suggest the people who had such an acrimonious response to this thread should take a deep breath, take a step back and look into WHY they had such a reaction to what is in real terms quite a minor occurence as you might have some unresolved issues still lingering from previous failed dalliances lurking in the darkness

^^^While I understand the thrust of what you're saying I think something else is evident here.

With a $100.00 shortfall, the OP has no savings to speak off, no back up plan. The type of plan he does have however is a smart phone plan --- something he's likely paying for himself. People often prioritize the wrong things.

A data plan package instead of a basic phone for emergencies is often one of them...it's part of the 'trappings' that people tend to have and justify the monthly expense so that there is no wherewithal to handle emergencies. There's no doubt that taking the data plan or even cobbling together $50.00 a month, by changing services and downgrading would help in this situation---so while I get the 'unexpected'...I really do because I've lived it many times over, it's much easier to understand this if your living within your means and making every attempt to protect your family rather than your image.

Asking for money to cover one's rent seems to change the dynamic of how we're seen by the person we're asking; and what's reflected back to the person who we're borrowing from is no longer the same.

For a man, it can be harder to recover from that because , there are subconscious ideals and expectations of how men should be. For a man there is the term " a good provider". It may feel antiquated as the expectation that all women be 'nurturing" or have "maternal instincts"...but they're there.

Antiquated or not, most of us have some version of that kind of thing rambling around in our heads, so when they're absent or something is bucking up against that kind of subconscious expectation of how we should be, it it becomes part of "Things that make us go Hmmm". It's noticeable and often uncomfortable....no matter how progressive we are or think we are, we're also somewhat bound and hemmed in by these kind of expectations of each other and when we fall short it causes us to really take a long look.

Aside from that, I think that there is a general pervasive gloom throughout the forum audience about our respective global economies.

The truth is that this man's issues are not as far off for some and that's possibly resonating -- perhaps not in a good way.

For others, perhaps they just don't want to think about anybody elses' issues....all this stress about the economy has been 'too much already'; for others still...reading this might feel like he's somehow hitting you up personally for your own money---some people like this in their own life, so this kind of thing might be hitting a kind of 'pre-anticipatory nerve'.
 MikeWM
Joined: 2/7/2011
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Posted: 9/8/2011 5:14:05 AM
Excellent post, and some quite interesting points and food for thought

I had already been wondering how people would have been responding has the exact same scenario been posted with the genders reversed because although many of us would like to believe our resonse would be equal and identical

The reality however is that quite frequently in key topics they will be almost mirror images of each other which also crops up quite regularly where DV, infidelity, stay at home partners, child access, resident or non resident parent issues, assumptions of the meaning of certain behaviours and countless other things are concerned

And as you say, a lot of that is because of socially indoctrinated stereotypes that even many affected by them will view as out of date and irrelvant nowadays but which still have a massive subconcious influence on how they view things and react to them without them even realising it
 SweetnessInFlorida
Joined: 6/26/2008
Msg: 136
Should i be insulted? Would you be?
Posted: 9/8/2011 5:41:50 AM
Athena is right about southern men, many, many of them will actually be insulted if a woman tries to pay for a date, or even toss in a few bucks, one southern man originally from Alabama i dated acted like i kicked his puppy when i offered gas money because he was driving a half hour to come and see me.
 MikeWM
Joined: 2/7/2011
Msg: 137
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Posted: 9/8/2011 6:03:12 AM
Thats as might be, but it makes it a bit narrow sighted and to be honest borderline hypocrisy to criticise a man for not getting by on a particular income just because a woman can do despite the cost of a relationship being so disproportionate

I am also pretty sure that if "women" in that area stuck to their guns in insisting on making dating a more "equal" expense that rather than being single and dateless the men would have no choice but to get used to it as happened in a lot of the rest of the world

I'm also sure that women who prefer to pay their own way rather than freeloading who live in that area do infact manage to find men to date too

So I doubt very much that as intimated this balance is "unchangeable" or the absolute only state under which dating can take place. So obviously a degree of preference is also going to be a contributing factor to varying degrees and theres some pretty obvious reasons why many wouldnt want the status quo to change towards a more even one anyway
 MikeWM
Joined: 2/7/2011
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Posted: 9/8/2011 6:06:28 AM
I dont have time to check back but I do kind of wonder if any women (from the south) have posted anything along the lines of

"Well we do have to remember that men always pay for costs incurred in dating, so this would be far worse if it was a woman who was strugging to manage her finances"

But somehow I seriously doubt that will have happened
 meowsaidthetigress
Joined: 7/9/2011
Msg: 139
Should i be insulted? Would you be?
Posted: 9/8/2011 6:28:10 AM
There is something you forgot to add into this equation which I already posted.
Im happy just like many women are with simple dates for the companionship and enjoyment of a mans company. Southern women are happy with the company of a man even if eating a peanut butter and jelly fishing at the lake. We dont expect extravagance when a man cant afford it. Then again the average working man here would eat deer meat all winter, if it made them happy to be able to afford taking their girl out to fancy dinners every week. So go ahead and insult southern Americans- we sure will tell you cause we dont like it much and Im a Yankee by birth.

This is the south and guess what? Every date I did pay for by insisting, I never heard from the guy again. Its a southern gentleman thing and we dont expect you to get it.
 MikeWM
Joined: 2/7/2011
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Posted: 9/8/2011 6:46:45 AM
Fair comment and you are right that being such a different social norm I probably wouldnt "get it"

But my main thought is that despite that being the status quo it doesnt feature in, nor seem to be factored into the acidic criticisms that have been posted if that is infact such a norm along the lines of my previous post

From my own perspective the absolute last thing I would want not just from a partner, but from anyone I liked in any capacity is to think they were in anyway going without simply for my benefit, And that would make me want to avoid the activity they were going without to finance rather than just accepting it as "how it is"

But by the same token I doubt you would "get that" either
 SylvanSwan
Joined: 8/5/2008
Msg: 141
Should i be insulted? Would you be?
Posted: 9/8/2011 7:04:07 AM
There are these words being thrown around like "indoctrinated stereotypes" and southern gentlemen (acting like you kicked his puppy when you offered gas money to him...heh heh) that athena and sweetness are describing is the actions of traditional type men. Traditional men insist on paying for the majority of everything, period.

And these type of men do not borrow money either, especially from women. And maybe I'm a traditionalist type of woman, because I would not borrow money either TO or FROM anyone I was dating. If I did end up being short of money I'd suck it up and do what others suggested, ie: make arrangements to partially pay some bills, skip meals, etc. Because that would be the proper thing to do too.
 RandomScause
Joined: 8/16/2011
Msg: 142
Should i be insulted? Would you be?
Posted: 9/8/2011 8:06:32 AM
Sylvan Swan, this I like. An conceptual image of a cavallier gentlemen, who pays for everthing on a date, from the money he borrowed from his date when he picked her up.

That's funny.

For me, the best lesson would be to skip a meal. Or maybe about 500-600 meals in handful of months. For very obvious reasons, not just to save money.

The problem in that, for me, and I say this fully awares that I am bragging, is that I pride myself with being very smart with money. When I was in college I remember bagging a German blonde princess, because she was impressed how I bought her a steak dinner and six long-stemmed red roses for our first date. But she also liked me because that was thirty years ago, when I was very good looking, not fat. This was mutual. And she liked me also, mutually, because we got along in emotional/mental terms. But the dinner, the roses, and the fact I did that on the measly income of a student, without ever getting my kneecaps broken, really impressed her.
 RandomScause
Joined: 8/16/2011
Msg: 143
Should i be insulted? Would you be?
Posted: 9/8/2011 8:10:22 AM
I also like the terms suchy "indoctrinated stereotypes".

We don't know, we can't peel the indoctrination safely off the genetic programming and see how much of our values come from which.

This sort of lingual convention I think is more useful to show someone's political alignment (small p) than to use in a sociologically minded debate.
 Trent12345678
Joined: 8/22/2011
Msg: 144
Should i be insulted? Would you be?
Posted: 9/8/2011 8:11:59 AM
I just read the first few responses so maybe this has been said, but here goes....

I'm assuming I know the whole story, are you telling all of the truth here? If so,
her female INSTINCTS just kicked in and went "hmmmm, my 'man' may not be such
a 'man' after all..." her behavior is typical, it's a TEST. Her instincts think
you might be weak, and not a good choice. She just lost respect for you.

This has nothing to do with logic. OF COURSE
borrowing a $100 after 6 months is fricken' reasonable, especially if you
are in fact working 46 hours a week. It has nothing to do with logic.

As little sense as it makes, her female instincts went "this guy asked ME, his
lover for money.....what a wuss"...forget about logic here, we're talking instincts.
Here's what I'd do, and I've had success with this kind of action before.

End the $100 incident. Firmly. If it's still in the air so to speak, puncture it,
end it. "You know this whole thing with the $100, forget it, forget about it,
I'm sorry I asked you, I won't ask you for a loan again, ever"...say this
with slight impatience and immediately go and do some task. I.E. mow
the lawn, fix something, whatever. Do NOT wait for her acceptance of
your decision. You've made it, and you stick to it. Her female instincts
will respect your decisiveness, her logical mind might do the usual
"what's wrong honey...bla, bla, bla"....just be totally neutral with the
slightest hint of a smile and say "nothings wrong, I'm not borrowing
money from you ever again, period, the end....I won't talk about it
anymore, so, what's for supper?"

You lost value in her eyes. Get it back by making a firm and decisive
decision. She might try to throw you with logic "look I want to talk
about this..." ....NOPE. It's off the table. You have made a decision.
Stick to your guns on this.
 Consigliori
Joined: 1/7/2008
Msg: 145
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Posted: 9/8/2011 8:16:49 AM

... but you have the nerve to second-guess a GF who loaned you $100 just for the asking. she is probably squeezing her butt cheeks together, wondering how much the next loan to you will be for.


That’s it! I’ve been looking for a way to get my wife to squeeze her butt cheeks together. Now if I can just time it right..."C'mon Baby, show me the MONEY!"
 renae
Joined: 1/27/2011
Msg: 146
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Posted: 9/8/2011 8:25:49 AM
Well, I have joked with some of my friends, that if you like someone but do not feel the relationship is going to work and do not want a difficult conversation, do one of two things. One of them is asking to borrow money, most people would run, so why would you expect any different? After 6 months would you really expect to contribute to her bills, so why would you ask her to contribute to yours?
 Vannili
Joined: 7/8/2008
Msg: 147
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Posted: 9/8/2011 8:58:11 AM
So it is okay that she asks for help, but it is wrong of what men will think ?


Well for me ,and I am not forcing my personal moral to others, it is wrong to " USE " a person who is attracted to you as a freebies, in other word to take advantage of him/her. Even friends who take advantage of their friends, friendship easily gets tiring.

So I am careful of what a man will think of me,because of his assessment on how I impress him, if I am a true grit woman worth having or a whore after he zipped his pants I am discarded as a disposable object... * take it out and trade* bara bing bara bang.. It is ironic but it is reality on actions and motives................
There are "some " guys attracted to me that tells me that they'll help me with my house/yard/ drive me where I want to go, ect ect and I replied ,no thank you I have a car, and I pay a handyman that do these job for me,now he thinks I am a hateful independent woman, a FEMINIST(shoulder shrugged) . But if he only diverse his approach that* he wants as a couple to do things together thru thick and thin ,for better or worse, thru high and dry, because He loves and adores me,,,,,, then my answer is here I am honey take me and I'll serve you the best Porkchops with Apple sauce and I enjoyed sucking Popsicle....
 woobytoodsday
Joined: 12/13/2006
Msg: 148
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Posted: 9/8/2011 9:33:04 AM
Some wanted a reversal on this. This would be my observation: ladies asking for or accepting a loan or stipend are not serious about a long term relationship. Partly because no human likes the other humans they are indebted to. We don't like loan companies, we don't like banks, we don't like pawnbrokers. You see how quickly our OPie turned a favor granted into a grievance? Women in the same position do the same. It's a pretty quick way to kill anything blooming or budding. Somewhat like sowing salt on your garden.

My own policy on lending is this (after one bad loan in a relationship): if you need, ask. If I can afford to do it without a payback, I'll gift it. If I *need* to have it repaid, I won't. Because it likely won't be repaid, and I'll start to pick at it. If I *gift* it, I can let it alone. And it won't affect the relationship.

 SylvanSwan
Joined: 8/5/2008
Msg: 149
Should i be insulted? Would you be?
Posted: 9/8/2011 9:42:25 AM

she was impressed how I bought her a steak dinner and six long-stemmed red roses for our first date. ..... But the dinner, the roses, and the fact I did that on the measly income of a student, .... really impressed her.
~Random

Ok so you bought the roses on special because they were past the expiry date, and the dinner was the resturant's special that night? LOL, doesn't matter. I'm sure the german princess appreciated the thought Random.

Dating doesn't have to be expensive.
 joemac356
Joined: 9/22/2009
Msg: 150
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Should i be insulted? Would you be?
Posted: 9/8/2011 11:02:33 AM
One should never be insulted by the truth.
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