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Show ALL Forums  > Politics  > Rick Perry -      Home login  
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 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 26
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Rick Perry - Page 2 of 8    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8)
http://law.freeadvice.com/government_law/social_security_law/social_security_tax.htm

Amount of Social Security Tax Americans Pay

If you work for someone else, 6.2% of your wages is withheld from your paycheck. Your employer deposits the withheld amount, along with a 6.2% matching contribution to the Social Security program. In 2010 and 2011, the employee tax and matching contribution to Social Security stopped after the first $106,800 of wages. Additionally, if you work for an employer, 1.45% of your wages is withheld and the employer makes a matching 1.45% contribution to the Medicare program, making the total with-holdings 7.65%. There is no income ceiling for Medicare taxes.
Gee ... I can recall lots of people who were anxious to get involved in that (so-called) Ponzi scheme because they knew they'd never be working for an employer who could offer them any kind of retirement plan ... SS was going to be it.

Isn't a Ponzi scheme some sort of a rip off? If so, then if you ask me ... a Ponzi scheme is the one we offer Congress. You know, for going to Washington for a certain length of time and then being vested for lifelong retirement benefits and health benefits immediately ... health benefits many of them never want their constituents to have.

 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 27
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Rick Perry -
Posted: 9/15/2011 2:29:57 PM
I agree with cotter social security is far from a rip off. social security is the reason why soo many people are able to retire after putting years of their hard earned money into paying taxes which in return the gov credits them for paying taxes into the system all of those years. I would love for Perry to actually go visit some of these other countries in the world that don't have a social security system in place for their people and see how worse off things truly are without it, when you got people that work all their lives and put soo much money in taxes towards their gov and they get nothing back to show for in return and are basically having to work until the day they die like a bunch of slaves. Mean while their gov gets rich off of their taxes that all of those hard working people put into it all those years. You know what they call those countries? Dictatorship countries where the people get nothing from their gov while the gov gets everything from their people.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 28
Rick Perry -
Posted: 9/15/2011 6:00:55 PM
"I agree with cotter social security is far from a rip off."

For the middle class SS yields a negative rate of return. People pay more into the system than they get back in benefits. That sounds like a rip off to me. The middle class would be better off if that money was invested in precious metals, for example, which are some of the safest long term investments.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 29
Rick Perry -
Posted: 9/15/2011 6:14:50 PM
"SS is more of a savings account."

With a savings account you put money into the bank. The bank loans that out at interest and then puts a portion of that plus the principal back into your account. You're allowed to take the money out of the bank any time you want. So SS is nothing like a savings account. It's more like, well, a Ponzi scheme. In SS people pay money into the system and when they retire they collect money from the people who are putting money into the system at this time. This is how a Ponzi scheme works. I.e. I put money into the scheme now and then later collect money from people who are then putting money into the system.

"If you want to call it a Ponzi scam, then Congress is Ponzi himself and should be arrested."

I'm all for that.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 30
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Rick Perry -
Posted: 9/15/2011 8:23:18 PM

For the middle class SS yields a negative rate of return. People pay more into the system than they get back in benefits.
I don't understand that statement. Perhaps it would be easier if you define the different "classes" ... at least in the way you view them.

What is "upper" class, "middle""class, "working" class ... in numbers? I think if you define that for us ... it might be easier to understand what you mean.

Once we know what that is ... then I'd appreciate knowing how you come to the conclusion that anyone doesn't get back what they pay into it. In order to prove to me what you're saying I'm gonna have to see that in numbers. I want to actually see the math being used to come to the conclusion as you do.
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 31
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Rick Perry -
Posted: 9/15/2011 9:15:40 PM
For the middle class SS yields a negative rate of return. People pay more into the system than they get back in benefits.


What are you talking about. The Social Security is divided by how long someone has worked and how much someone made on avg over the years which determines the amount of social security you get back each month when you retire. How is that unfair? So a person working at McDonalds for 25 years on an minimum wage salary with a small amount of taxes taking out each month of their paycheck should get as much social security retirement income back monthly as someone that worked for 25 years that got paid 20 dollars an hour and had a lot more taxes taken out of there paycheck monthly over the years? I mean, would it be fair if i hardly worked in my life and just did minimum wage jobs here or there that over the course of the years met the bare minium requirments to get social securty retiremnt and get back the same amount of money in social security retirement each month then someone that busted their ass for 30+ or more years working that had a decent paying salary and because of that had a lot more taxes taking out of them each month over those years that they were working? No. That would be completely unfair to them and completely communist like. You get back what you pay into the system and that's the way it should be, because that's fair.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 32
Rick Perry -
Posted: 9/16/2011 11:27:58 AM
Here's an interesting tool that allows you to estimate rates of return on SS, based on various demographics.

http://politicalcalculations.blogspot.com/2011/08/updated-approximating-social-securitys.html

For a two earner couple born in 1950 and an average income of $135,000 gets a rate of return of -0.09%. As a quick note, based on numbers from the Tax Foundation, in 2008 the top 5% of the population makes about $160,000/yr and higher. So two people making $67,500 each is pretty solidly middle income, IMO. But play around with the numbers. Even when the rate of return isn't negative it's not very good.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 33
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Rick Perry -
Posted: 9/16/2011 4:23:35 PM
@Count ...
Since you appear to be avoiding the questions I asked, I'm going to repeat them ...
Perhaps it would be easier if you define the different "classes" ... at least in the way you view them.

What is "upper" class, "middle""class, "working" class ... in numbers? I think if you define that for us ... it might be easier to understand what you mean.

Once we know what that is ... then I'd appreciate knowing how you come to the conclusion that anyone doesn't get back what they pay into it. In order to prove to me what you're saying I'm gonna have to see that in numbers.

And I'd especially like to emphasize the last part of that ...
I want to actually see the math being used to come to the conclusion as you do.


Why not do it that way instead of asking us to look at some sort of formula. That really doesn't show me how you came to your conclusions ... eh?

I mean otherwise, you're just making empty allegations that not even you can prove.
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 34
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Rick Perry -
Posted: 9/16/2011 5:52:17 PM
Why not do it that way instead of asking us to look at some sort of formula. That really doesn't show me how you came to your conclusions ... eh?

I mean otherwise, you're just making empty allegations that not even you can prove.


I was going to provide input on that last argument against social secruty but what cotter said pretty much sumed it up for me.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 35
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Rick Perry -
Posted: 9/19/2011 8:07:24 AM
Count ...When will you be getting back with us on that example of the point you wanted to make?


Here's an interesting tool that allows you to estimate rates of return on SS, based on various demographics.

I want to actually see the math being used to come to the conclusion as you do.


Why not do it that way instead of asking us to look at some sort of formula. That really doesn't show me how you came to your conclusions ... eh?

I mean otherwise, you're just making empty allegations that not even you can prove.


My guess is that the numbers aren't coming together for you the way you wanted ... the way you wanted us to believe it would happen.

We've been hearing crickets as we wait for you to come up with actual mathematical examples of what you tried to pull over on us.

The thing is, when participating in "parrot- talking", it's not so easy to prove things, you know ... put it on paper. But it sure sounds good just spouting it out ... eh?
 .dej
Joined: 11/6/2007
Msg: 36
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Rick Perry -
Posted: 9/19/2011 10:35:01 AM

SS is more of a savings account. You work for forty to fifty years paying into it. When you retire, you get your money back in payments. It's an investment you make for your own benefit. It's a typical retirement plan. Are all retirement plans Ponzi scams.

If you want to call it a Ponzi scam, then Congress is Ponzi himself and should be arrested.

Wow. No.

SS is nothing like a savings account. Nor is a typical retirement plan anything like social security.
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 37
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Rick Perry
Posted: 9/20/2011 12:02:59 AM
I can't believe wait yes i can that Rick Perry is still leading in the polls. I mean come on people. Do the people that are voting for him not freaking realize that he is going to lose in the national election. I mean you think him saying social security is a scam is going to help him win votes from independents and swing states? If he wins they miles well give Obama the relection, because that's what is going to happen if perry becomes the nominee. Florida with all of these retired people living in that state won't vote for him that's for damn sure. Romney is the only hope for the rep party to beat Obama and if the voters of the republican party don't realize this then they are blind. Yet they will be the first people to cry that obama got relected, well duh because you picked the wrong GUY! It's like a bet, your not going to pick the bet with the least chance of winning, you're going to pick the bet that has the best chance of winning. Since the republican nominee race is basicly a 2 man race Odds on favorite right now is Romeny of beating Obama in 2012, Perry is the the least favorable of beating Obama in 2012 in the national election. So clearly if you are a rep the logical choice would be to pick Romeny.
 .dej
Joined: 11/6/2007
Msg: 38
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Rick Perry
Posted: 9/20/2011 12:14:28 AM

You put your money into an account with the expectation you'll get your money back someday. It sounds like a savings account to me. The cost of living increase sounds like interest.

You checked the balance of your personal social security account lately? What exactly is the balance?
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 39
Rick Perry
Posted: 9/20/2011 8:00:00 PM
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2000/03/Who-Pays-the-Payroll-Tax



A Summary of Findings
The Heritage analysis shows that average effective tax rates and benefit rates (or roughly the taxes paid and benefits received divided by total income) vary significantly across demographic and income groups:

Workers with pre-OASDI incomes from $17,813 to $27,732 have the highest average effective Social Security tax rate (10.3 percent).11 Workers in the highest income group have the lowest tax rate (6.7 percent). Young workers who are 27 to 30 years of age have the highest tax rate of any age group (10.1 percent); and workers with a high school diploma or less have the highest tax rates of any educational group (9.9 percent).

As a group, married families with children have the highest average effective payroll tax rate (8.9 percent) and pay the largest share of OASDI taxes (38.3 percent). Married families without children and single persons without children pay the lowest average effective tax rates.

Families in the middle to upper income groups pay larger shares of OASDI taxes than do families with lower incomes. Families in the lowest pre-OASDI income decile ($2,867 or less) pay less than 0.1 percent of all OASDI taxes, while families in the highest income decile ($88,206 or more) pay 28.2 percent of all OASDI taxes.12 In 1997, families with incomes of $29,100 or more paid $261.9 billion more in payroll taxes than they received in benefits while families with incomes below that amount received $201.1 billion more in benefits than they paid in taxes.13

Social Security tax rates on pre-OASDI income for workers grouped by income are fairly steady as income rises except for the top income group, while the tax rates for all families and individuals grouped by income generally rise as income increases except for the top income group.

For all individuals, women have a higher Social Security tax rate than men. On average, women pay an OASDI tax rate of 8.4 percent, or $1,472 per year, while men pay a rate of 8.2 percent, or $2,642. In 1997, the Social Security program transferred $23.9 billion from men to women.14

For all individuals, Hispanics and black Americans have higher OASDI tax rates than do whites and Americans of other races.15 Whites and Americans of other races pay tax rates of 8.1 percent and 8.5 percent, respectively, compared with 9 percent for blacks and 9.3 percent for Hispanics. Hispanics and Americans of other races on average paid significantly more in OASDI taxes than those groups received in benefits in 1997.16

Social Security tax rates vary significantly by state. Indiana, Mississippi, Michigan, South Carolina, Alabama, and Iowa have the highest tax rates while the District of Columbia, Alaska, Colorado, Louisiana, and Virginia have the lowest tax rates. In all, residents in 10 states receive more in Social Security benefits than they pay in taxes, while residents of 40 states and the District of Columbia pay more in taxes than they receive in benefits.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 40
Rick Perry
Posted: 9/20/2011 8:06:15 PM


You need to prove that someone is being denied their SS benefit before you can prove it's a Ponzi scheme.


No, that's got nothing to do with whether it's a Ponzi scheme. However, I'll give you an example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flemming_v._Nestor



Nestor challenged this Section after he was denied Social Security payments as a deported member of the Communist Party. He argued that a contract existed between himself and the United States government, since he had paid into the system for 19 years.
Nestor, an alien, became eligible for Social Security payments in 1955. In July 1956 he was deported for having been a member of the Communist Party from 1933 to 1939. Section 202(n) of the Social Security Act provided for the termination of Social Security payments when an alien is deported for being a member of the Communist Party.

The Court ruled that no such contract exists, and that there is no contractual right to receive Social Security payments.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 41
Rick Perry
Posted: 9/20/2011 8:17:54 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fig._168_-_Single_men_with_different_wages_and_retirement_dates.JPG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fig._165_-_Impact_of_gender_and_wage_levels_on_net_SS_benefits.JPG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fig._167_-_Comparison_of_net_SS_benefits.JPG
 .dej
Joined: 11/6/2007
Msg: 42
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Rick Perry
Posted: 9/20/2011 8:25:05 PM

No, I haven't.

I'll give you a hint: you can't. Because social security doesn't work that way. In fact, it was intended as an insurance program, not a retirement program. The idea of everyone actually claiming it and relying on it was not even considered when social security was started.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 43
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Rick Perry
Posted: 9/21/2011 7:08:44 AM
@Count ...
Once again … you appear to be avoiding the questions I asked. I'm not looking for little graphs or statements that quote generalities.

Please define (for us all) the different "classes" ... in the way you view them.

What is "upper" class, "middle""class, “lower class”, "working" class ... in numbers? I think if you define that for us ... it might be easier to understand what you mean.

I’m not asking for anything complicated. Just show us an example (in mathematical numbers) of how you come to the conclusion that people do not get what they put into Social Security.

Upper Class” = ____________
They pay __________ into Social Security.
They get __________ out of Social Security.

Middle Class” = ____________
They pay __________ into Social Security.
They get __________ out of Social Security.

Lower Class” = ____________
They pay __________ into Social Security.
They get __________ out of Social Security.

Working Class” = ____________
They pay __________ into Social Security.
They get __________ out of Social Security.

If you can’t prove what you’re saying, then you're just repeating something you heard someone saying and making empty allegations.

I doubt if you can prove what you are saying.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 44
Rick Perry
Posted: 9/21/2011 10:21:07 AM


I’m not asking for anything complicated.


That's the problem right there. It is complicated. It depends on factors such as when you're born, if you're single or married, how you file taxes if married, whether you're divorced, when you started paying into the system (e.g. payroll tax rates have changed over time), your gender, etc.



If you can’t prove what you’re saying, then you're just repeating something you heard someone saying and making empty allegations.


I've already provided you with evidence from people who have done the math.
 where4
Joined: 10/1/2008
Msg: 45
Rick Perry
Posted: 9/22/2011 12:18:47 AM
(moving right along from this p!zzing contest on Social Security...)

Interesting article in Slate by William Saletan, Wednesday, Sept. 21, 2011
http://www.slate.com/id/2304311?wpisrc=xs_wp_0001



Alliance for Christ
Rick Perry's pledge to stand with Israel "as a Christian" is a gift to Islamic extremists.


Rick Perry speaking about Israel in New York on Sept. 20, 2011: "I ... as a Christian have a clear directive to support Israel."
[...]
Whoa. That's something George W. Bush never did. Bush never said he had a Christian duty to stand with Israel, because to say such a thing would have been stupid and dangerous. By framing U.S. foreign policy in terms of a religious alliance between Christians and Jews, Perry is validating the propaganda of Islamic extremists. He's jeopardizing peace, Israel, and the United States.

Bush understood that the terrorists who struck us on 9/11 wanted a religious war. The key to defeating them wasn't to wage that war, but to refuse it. That's why Bush constantly praised Islam...
[...]


This Christian cowboy is very dangerous!
 Bladesmith81801
Joined: 10/30/2010
Msg: 46
Rick Perry
Posted: 9/22/2011 2:04:33 AM
Thats because Isreal is desperately important to the Evangelicals and their End of the world/Rapture mentality.

That want that event started, and soon.

Lovely fellow Perry is pallin around with:

Hikind was at one time a top lieutenant in the Jewish Defense League (JDL), a group that the FBI later classified as a terrorist organization.

The FBI's website describes the JDL as "violent extremist Jewish organization" whose members conspired to use improvised explosive devices (IEDs) on a California mosque and the offices of Rep. Darryl Issa (R-CA) in 2001.

"The group has orchestrated countless terrorist attacks in the U.S. and abroad, and has engaged in intense harassment of foreign diplomats, Muslims, Jewish scholars and community leaders, and officials," according to the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC).

In 2006, Hikind recalled to The Jewish Daily Forward the extent to which J. Edgar Hoover's FBI investigated his organization.

"I remember we had pictures of potential FBI informants in the JDL office," Hikind said, adding that it was "amazing" to think of "the level of resources the government used to destroy the JDL and how [JDL leader Rabbi Meir Kahane] and a bunch of kids got them so excited."

More recently, Hikind has left behind the JDL for a different kind of extremism.

At a 2005 press conference, he held up pictures of Muslim men and explained that all terrorists "look basically like this." The assemblymen has also compared homosexuality to incest.

In 1998, Hikind narrowly escaped indictment for illegally receiving thousands of dollars from a social services group.

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/david/rick-perry-palling-around-extremists
 unYOUsual
Joined: 8/11/2011
Msg: 47
Rick Perry
Posted: 9/22/2011 4:40:48 AM
Seriously you are bringing associates into a political conversation? You guys crack me up, so I guess all of Obamas extremist associates are now relevant and we should judge him by them?
 Bladesmith81801
Joined: 10/30/2010
Msg: 48
Rick Perry
Posted: 9/22/2011 4:45:51 AM
Oh you're going to fall back on the story of Ayers and Obama being bosum buddies again? Despite it not being true?

But ok, lets play your silly game. The right wing started this "pallin around with terrorists" BS, and now it's no good when one of yours IS?

Hypocritical much?
 unYOUsual
Joined: 8/11/2011
Msg: 49
Rick Perry
Posted: 9/22/2011 6:05:19 AM
I read the article about this alleged connection it seems they were at the same place at the same time, not much of a relationship there.
 427cammer
Joined: 3/1/2008
Msg: 50
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History
Rick Perry -
Posted: 9/22/2011 11:22:59 AM
SteelCity:

How is social security a Ponzi scheme?

In my country, I've always thought that our pension plan was more similar to a pyramid scheme (I had to look up what a Ponzi scheme was).

I don't believe for a second that the Canadian government has set aside my (and my employer's) CPP contributions into an account that is yielding interest until the time of my retirement... not when our debt is hundreds of billions. No... I believe that the money I pay is going straight to the people who are already retired. This works okay as long as the big end of the pyramid remains at the bottom... with life spans increasing and birth rates declining and baby-boomers retiring, I fear that this is no longer the case.

Now, me acknowledging that this could indeed be a problem for our future does not mean that I want to scrap our pension plan (I certainly want to get mine). If a politician up here wanted to discuss any future problems with our CPP... and hopefully some solutions... I'm not going to cover my ears and run from the room singing "LAH LAH LAH LAH LAH....."


From Irregulator's post:

In the context of the teachings of the NAR, the repeated calls for repentance of the church at Perry's prayer event were about cleansing Protestantism of its toleration of homosexuals, a woman's right to choose, and most importantly - of its toleration for religious pluralism, separation of church and state, and secular government. Again, toleration of those things of which they disapprove is not a virtue, but a sign that one is controlled by demons.

I kind of get the feeling from reading your posts that all religions are just playing make-believe... basically these people are crazy. And I'm guessing that for you, there are different levels of craziness among the religious... that someone like Perry is a whole lot crazier than someone like Obama.

^^^^And I understand this too... ten years ago, when I was much less tolerant; JWs and Mormons were perceived as crazier than Catholics or Lutherans. Nowadays it's more of a feeling of "Whatever....."

At any rate, other than where4's article making the assertion that Bush had a lot better handle on his religious beliefs concerning diplomacy than Perry, I haven't heard (I haven't been listening that closely mind you) of any actual actions taken by Perry as Governor of Texas that makes him appear to be dangerously religious. I'm guessing there must be oodles of examples of his extremist views that crept into policy making.... what do you think are the worst examples of this?

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