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 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 26
Effects of flooding on human development?Page 2 of 5    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)

The following is from Manfred Mudelsee's article in Quaternary Science Reviews 20 (2001) 583-589 titled, " The phase relations among atmospheric CO2 content, temperature and global ice volume over the past 420 ka." (Note that ka = 1,000 years. )


Now THAT is citation! Thanks Professor!
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 27
Effects of flooding on human development?
Posted: 10/4/2011 12:00:37 PM

The issue here is ANTHROPOLOGICAL global warming........ and if the temps go up before or after the rise of CO2 levels, and that is settled.


"Settled!?" Says who? You?

Here is someone who would unequivocally disagree with you.

http://mitworld.mit.edu/video/509/
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 28
Effects of flooding on human development?
Posted: 10/4/2011 12:33:40 PM

we really don't know wxactly what mother earth will do......... as a lot of that is based on what the SUN does,


Really!? Well then...please explain why temperatures continued to rise even during one of the deepest and longest solar minimums on record.

It seems to me the denialists love to insist that we can't possibly have that much effect on the atmosphere...but have you heard what's been happening lately with the arctic ozone layer?

C'mon, Paul, use your head. Billions of tons of carbon pumped into the environment every year and it's going to do nothing? Really?
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 29
Effects of flooding on human development?
Posted: 10/4/2011 1:11:12 PM
Really, plants do "eat" CO2, they really do.............


Wow! You understand some actual science after all!

And how fast do you eat? Do you have any limits. And what have we been doing to our forests over the past couple of centuries?

And if you want to keep trading barbs and attitudes back and forth, I'm game. Of course, we'll both get banned, but I can keep up with you quite easily.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 30
Effects of flooding on human development?
Posted: 10/4/2011 3:07:35 PM
Interesting data, Paul, although I have no idea who he is. So humans produce a lot of CO2 by breathing.

Now, I wonder how much the cars of Copenhagen produce. Or industry. Etc. Etc.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 31
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Effects of flooding on human development?
Posted: 10/5/2011 12:33:53 AM

This is NOT the only place where the scientific fact that the temperature was warmed first, and then CO2 levels went up................... so there is much more than just a movie....................
/snip/
By the way, this is not a right wing/left wing argument. It is simply to point out the fact that the core basic argument of those who want to place global warming on anthropological terms, are wrong.



Science isn’t like a house of cards, in that removing one line of evidence (eg. land surface air temperature) wouldn’t cause the whole edifice of anthropogenic global warming to collapse. Rather, “land surface warming” is one of more than ten bricks supporting “global warming”; and with global warming established, there is a whole other set of bricks supporting “anthropogenic global warming”. To undermine these conclusions, you’d need to remove most or all of the bricks supporting them – but as the evidence continues to pile up, that is becoming less and less likely.
http://www.skepticalscience.com/evidence-for-global-warming.htm
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 32
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Effects of flooding on human development?
Posted: 10/5/2011 2:49:36 PM
Yupper Paul..Simple...and wrong.

Humans are unique in our ability to consume copious amounts of exosomatic energy, most of which has been the cummulation of millions of years of carbon stored outside of the atmosphere, digging it up and buring those billions of years of stored carbon. We are also unique in our ability to massively manipulate the historic carbon storage mechanizms in soils, waters, and terrestrial ecosystems.

We are the only species that can release tens of thousands of generations worth of stored carbon into the global thermostat, not knowing at all how that thermostat works, but willing to blindly do so with a hope and a prayer that we ain't ucking fit up.

There is a thing call the Precautionary Principle. When the stakes are so high, and the certainty so low, the science compelling, erring on the side of safety by being more efficient, conservation, and moving to equitable and sustainable technologies and practices cannot really be a losing proposition. Unless of course folks have a disdain for future generations. After all, what in the h3ll has posterity ever done for US?
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 33
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Effects of flooding on human development?
Posted: 10/5/2011 3:08:34 PM
Probably both Paul, as we are finding out with the negative feedback loop of permafrost melting, carbon stored in peat and boreal forests being released, Ocean acidification, and a few other unexpected carbon bombs going off as a consequence.

Again..we don't understand the wiring of this planet that became so hospitible without our mucking around. Now people in panic are looking at geo-engineering the atmosphere to try to fix what is apparently be broken, without a clue about how the "fixes" will fare in the long term. Re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic on a global scale, and fighting over the lifeboats, who on the crew allowed us to hit the iceburg, and arguing about if it's the iceburgs' fault or ours, while we sink, seems to be the most common response instead of humility, willingness to accept responsibility and changing course.
 Professoro
Joined: 8/1/2011
Msg: 34
Effects of flooding on human development?
Posted: 10/5/2011 3:10:06 PM
Paul, the lag between the variables is not really important as the fact that these two variables are correlated so that when one increases so does the other, and increases in both will lead to an increase in sea level. The most important fact is that recent measurements are showing these variables are changing at rates faster than the estimated natural rates. Man's activity is changing global climate. 25 years ago and up to just a few
years ago, I use to lecture to my graduate classes, including those at Harvard, that I did not believe we are influencing climate. I can not make the same statements now based on the last 25 years of observations. cheers, O
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 35
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Effects of flooding on human development?
Posted: 10/5/2011 3:46:50 PM
Paul...somethin tells me we would do much better together in that sort of setting than in the interwebs. Much gets lost in the translation.

Meanwhile..it is increasingly likely that perhaps all this flooding is coming from space originated water.
http://www.space.com/13185-comets-water-earth-oceans-source.html
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 36
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Effects of flooding on human development?
Posted: 10/5/2011 5:54:21 PM

Lets try one more time. The whole premise of anthropological global warming is based on HUMANS, that is the "anthropological" part, producing enough CO2 to create a green house effect, and thereby raise the temperatures to levels where the ice will melt and hopefully, if it is true, al gore will drown.

However, if that premise, the one that CO2 production PRECEDES temperature rise, is BACKWORDS, then not just one brick is missing, but the whole center and top and most of the sides of the bricks in the bridge are missing, as the central, main premise is WRONG.

Note \/\/\/
Science isn’t like a house of cards, in that removing one line of evidence (eg. land surface air temperature) wouldn’t cause the whole edifice of anthropogenic global warming to collapse. Rather, “land surface warming” is one of more than ten bricks supporting “global warming”; and with global warming established, there is a whole other set of bricks supporting “anthropogenic global warming”. To undermine these conclusions, you’d need to remove most or all of the bricks supporting them – but as the evidence continues to pile up, that is becoming less and less likely.
http://www.skepticalscience.com/evidence-for-global-warming.htm

Rather than challenging the science you are just fixated on semi-irrelevancies like Al Gore and whether or not warming follows CO2 increase, or precedes it.

Again, we are discussing ANTHROPOLOGICAL global warming, as the earth warms and cools all the time all by its lonesome.........

Says who? The OP makes no such restriction.
It may suit you to try to narrow the debate to being only about Al Gore's chart but that's not the topic.

I can't compete with evidence gathered from "my friend on the Island of Kona" or, sadly, from
'bredsaal of Denmark'. But I did manage to find some vaguely apocryphal ramblings from those fools at NASA, who appear to have wasted years gathering needlessly precise scientific measurements while pointlessly analysing mega quantities of redundant information gathered by diverse conspiricists engaged in actively corrupting various scientific disciplines all over the world for no other reason than to prolong their funding.

Meaningless litany though it is, I thought I'd post it here...


The Earth's climate has changed throughout history. Just in the last 650,000 years there have been seven cycles of glacial advance and retreat, with the abrupt end of the last ice age about 7,000 years ago marking the beginning of the modern climate era — and of human civilization. Most of these climate changes are attributed to very small variations in Earth’s orbit that change the amount of solar energy our planet receives.

The current warming trend is of particular significance because most of it is very likely human-induced and proceeding at a rate that is unprecedented in the past 1,300 years.

Earth-orbiting satellites and other technological advances have enabled scientists to see the big picture, collecting many different types of information about our planet and its climate on a global scale. Studying these climate data collected over many years reveal the signals of a changing climate.

"Scientific evidence for warming of the climate system is unequivocal."
- Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change

Sea level rise - Global sea level rose about 17 centimeters (6.7 inches) in the last century. The rate in the last decade, however, is nearly double that of the last century.

Global temperature rise - All three major global surface temperature reconstructions show that Earth has warmed since 1880. Most of this warming has occurred since the 1970s, with the 20 warmest years having occurred since 1981 and with all 10 of the warmest years occurring in the past 12 years. Even though the 2000s witnessed a solar output decline resulting in an unusually deep solar minimum in 2007-2009, surface temperatures continue to increase.

Warming oceans - The oceans have absorbed much of this increased heat, with the top 700 meters (about 2,300 feet) of ocean showing warming of 0.302 degrees Fahrenheit since 1969.

Shrinking ice sheets - The Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets have decreased in mass. Data from NASA's Gravity Recovery and Climate Experiment show Greenland lost 150 to 250 cubic kilometers (36 to 60 cubic miles) of ice per year between 2002 and 2006, while Antarctica lost about 152 cubic kilometers (36 cubic miles) of ice between 2002 and 2005.

Declining Arctic sea ice - Both the extent and thickness of Arctic sea ice has declined rapidly over the last several decades.

Glacial retreat - Glaciers are retreating almost everywhere around the world — including in the Alps, Himalayas, Andes, Rockies, Alaska and Africa.

Ocean acidification - Since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution, the acidity of surface ocean waters has increased by about 30 percent. This increase is the result of humans emitting more carbon dioxide into the atmosphere and hence more being absorbed into the oceans. The amount of carbon dioxide absorbed by the upper layer of the oceans is increasing by about 2 billion tons per year.

http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/
http://climate.nasa.gov/causes/
http://climate.nasa.gov/effects/
http://climate.nasa.gov/uncertainties/

Apparently this bizarre reliance on empirical data and evidence is spreading. Because I found an unbelievable number of sources absolutely full of it! The black-hearted wickedness of these corrupters of truth is breathtaking...

Check out this slickly produced and highly accessible pack of lies!
http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/cmb/bams-sotc/2009/bams-sotc-2009-brochure-lo-rez.pdf

There are even whole sites given over to assembling these meta-collections of wrong facts all in one place so that one may distort ones thinking with maximum convenience.


The 2009 State of the Climate report of the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), released in mid-2010, brings together many different series of data “from the top of the atmosphere to the depths of the ocean”. The conclusion? All of these independent lines of evidence tell us unequivocally that the Earth is warming.

The 10 indicators are:

1. Land surface air temperature as measured by weather stations. You know all those skeptic arguments about how the temperature record is biased by the urban heat island effect, badly-sited weather stations, dropped stations, and so on? This is the only indicator which suffers from all those problems. So if you’re arguing with somebody who tries to frame the discussion as being about land surface air temperature, just remind them about the other nine indicators.
2. Sea surface temperature. As with land temperatures, the longest record goes back to 1850 and the last decade is warmest.
3. Air temperature over the oceans.
4. Lower troposphere temperature as measured by satellites for around 50 years. By any of these measures, the 2000s was the warmest decade and each of the last three decades has been much warmer than the previous one.
5. Ocean heat content, for which records go back over half a century. More than 90% of the extra heat from global warming is going into the oceans – contributing to a rise in…
6. Sea level. Tide gauge records go back to 1870, and sea level has risen at an accelerating rate.
7. Specific humidity, which has risen in tandem with temperatures.
8. Glaciers. 2009 was the 19th consecutive year in which there was a net loss of ice from glaciers worldwide.
9. Northern Hemisphere snow cover, which has also decreased in recent decades.
10. Perhaps the most dramatic change of all has been in Arctic sea ice. Satellite measurements are available back to 1979 and reliable shipping records back to 1953. September sea ice extent has shrunk by 35% since 1979.

http://www.skepticalscience.com/evidence-for-global-warming.htm


Presumably their craven plan is to overwhelm commonsense with mountains of seemingly credible data?
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 37
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Effects of flooding on human development?
Posted: 10/5/2011 8:33:36 PM
IF there is MAN caused warming, are the same species that caused it , going to fix it/NO!


are SOME going to get rich from snake oil ideas to presumably curb it/ YES!

nature has thrown anything and everything at nature with no regard for ANY consequences to the earth.

shitt happens you know.

among other things, ocean levels are probably going to do there thing, man caused or not, LIVE with it.

it's not the thing to panic about.

there is plenty of other proven man caused shitt to be concerned with and, APPARENTLY ALSO hopeless to find a solution for.


having said that, we should ALL reduce consumption to meager levels, compared to the average consumer.

is that going to happen/NO!

happy dreaming if you think that that over consumption mentality is ever going to go in reverse.

It's going to get a lot worse first.

third world countries are saying IT'S OUR TURN!
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 38
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Effects of flooding on human development?
Posted: 10/7/2011 10:20:39 AM
why would nature fix it?

is it broken?

what deams it broken?

nature now has a goal?

couldn't nature go any bloody which way?
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 39
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Effects of flooding on human development?
Posted: 10/7/2011 9:41:33 PM
nature takes the way of least resistance.

would that be correct?

or does it eventually just burn out, so to speak? or both.

basically that 2nd law of thermal dynamics.
everything deteriorates.
thanks.
 Hawaiianluau
Joined: 11/13/2008
Msg: 40
Effects of flooding on human development?
Posted: 10/8/2011 4:18:19 PM
RE: The global warming advocates -
msg 60



all over the world for no other reason than to prolong their funding.


Knowing human nature as acutely as I do I'm am definitely more prone to
believe this is true than the unproven claim that we can miraculously change the temperature of a gargantuan planet. If us havoc wreaking earthlings were to
land on one of these celestial masses -

http://www.co-intelligence.org/newsletter/comparisons.html

-would we have an impact on the climate by driving our Ford F-150's there too or is it only the Earth that is oh so fragile that it cannot handle our ever present existence?
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 41
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Effects of flooding on human development?
Posted: 10/9/2011 9:10:43 AM

I can't compete with evidence gathered from "my friend on the Island of Kona" or, sadly, from 'bredsaal of Denmark'. But I did manage to find some vaguely apocryphal ramblings from those fools at NASA, who appear to have wasted years gathering needlessly precise scientific measurements while pointlessly analysing mega quantities of redundant information gathered by diverse conspiricists engaged in actively corrupting various scientific disciplines all over the world for no other reason than to prolong their funding.

Knowing human nature as acutely as I do I'm am definitely more prone to
believe this is true than the unproven claim that we can miraculously change the temperature of a gargantuan planet. If us havoc wreaking earthlings were to land on one of these celestial masses -
http://www.co-intelligence.org/newsletter/comparisons.html

-would we have an impact on the climate by driving our Ford F-150's there too or is it only the Earth that is oh so fragile that it cannot handle our ever present existence?

Arguments from mere personal incredulity are objectively meaningless.


By the way... I only put in that stuff about "prolonging their funding" to parody the bizarre lengths to which some doubters will go to avoid facing facts. It wasn't really meant as a serious alternative explanation for the consistent findings over many years of independent groups working all over the world in various scientific disciplines regarding the overall phenomenon of global warming.

So even though I'm aware the comical effect of parody comes from its connection to possible realities it's still a surprising discovery that someone, you in this case, actually does think international science is really just some kind of corrupt conspiracy.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 42
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Effects of flooding on human development?
Posted: 10/9/2011 12:58:46 PM
Hawaiian:

We also once thought that it wasn't possible for humans to pollute a huge river or lake to the point where it would no longer provide fish and usable irrigation water, but we managed to prove THAT idea false, repeatedly.

We didn't do THAT "miraculously," as you COULD recall if you are old enough and observant enough. We did it a slug at a time, just as we've been making changes across the globe a chunk at a go.

I don't get your mention of driving pickup trucks on other planets. Are you just being silly?
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 43
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Effects of flooding on human development?
Posted: 10/9/2011 1:58:48 PM
There is also the likelihood, that life itself on Earth increased the oxygen levels on the planet, which in turn increased the life and size of life on the planet.
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/news/091101_oxygenconstraint

Looking at the atmosphere of this planet from the Space Station, Shuttles or Hubble, re-enforces just how thin this layer of life giving oxygen and nitrogen is. It's the relative thickness of an onion skin, and to deny that we cannot possibly impact it is quite naive. It it increasingly difficult to find places on earth devoid of human produced sound. The earth is also covered with human distributed mercury depositions, dioxins, radionuclides and thousands of chemicals. As vast as the oceans are, we have over-fished them and induced an acidification process that is killing reefs, created dead zones the size of countries offshore from land and chemical abuse, and created garbage patches the size of continents.

It was not that long ago, in my lifetime, that rivers were once thought of as infinite dumps, capable of washing all our wastes and sins away.

Every indicator now points to humans having profound negative effects around the planet. Human caused extinctions are more than rivaling historic catastrophic events. In many places of the world, we are approaching or exceeding the annual net primary productivity of the biomass.

We have evolved to the point where we are capable of looking at the historic record in ice sheets to measure Co2 levels, to study rock strata for glimpses further back in history, and scientificallay conclude that there is a cause and effect that occured when we started consuming millions of years of stored carbon in a very short period of human history.

The melting ice caps will be just one challenge this species will have to adapt to. Weather extremes are likely to become the new normal as well. There will be environmental refugees and political instability as a result. The flooding referred to in the OP will cover what remains of much of our most productive lands. With 1/6 of the human population already facing water and food insecurity, that will only increase as well. And if those scenarios are not enough to concern the most comfy among the denialists, Chocolate may become a thing of the past as well.
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/features/chocolate-worth-its-weight-in-gold-2127874.html

And as for mucking up other planets with F 150s, there is the problem with first finding another planet inhabitable, with fossil fuels, and then getting there as we squander our remaining resources for cheap plastic sh*t from Mal-Wart.
 Hawaiianluau
Joined: 11/13/2008
Msg: 44
Effects of flooding on human development?
Posted: 10/9/2011 2:06:29 PM
Are you just being silly?

Not at all I'm saying there are people that don't realize the power of the world they live on and are susceptible to any and all of the well planned and executed propaganda - that we can change the course of the planet's patterns at will.
Here we have a problem with dead cars on the side of the road and someone said just dump them in the ocean. Somebody actually responded if we did that it would raise the sea level. Blows the mind how people miss the power and vastness of nature. I feel sorry for those brain washed into the necessary thought process it takes to wake up every morning and think *oh it's windier today. I must alter my life entirely and consume only the things that some else tells me to. I won't let my mind be manipulated that way.

Man made global warming? Prove it.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 45
Effects of flooding on human development?
Posted: 10/9/2011 2:28:59 PM

Man made global warming? Prove it.


Funny thing about when people make statements like that. Usually, no proof is sufficient. So why bother?
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 46
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Effects of flooding on human development?
Posted: 10/9/2011 3:14:21 PM
Ocean acidification has even more dire consequences for life on land as well.
http://www.alternet.org/water/152636/our_oceans_are_in_dire_shape%2C_but_without_them_all_life_on_land_--_human%2C_plant_and_animal_--_is_totally_screwed/?page=entire


Oceanographers estimate that before the use of fossil fuels, the ocean's PH balance, which measures its acidity, had been relatively stable for the past 20 million years. During the last great extinction of marine life, which occurred 55 million years ago, 50 percent of some groups of deep sea animals were wiped out.

But the current levels of carbon being absorbed by the oceans is far higher than the levels being absorbed then.

A United Nations Environment Program (UNEP) report released in 2010 on the "Environmental Consquences of Ocean Acidification" and based on studies conducted over the past two decades off the coast of Hawai'i has confirmed that the increased CO2 concentration levels in the ocean mirror the increased CO2 levels in the atmosphere.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 47
Effects of flooding on human development?
Posted: 10/10/2011 2:03:44 PM

Warming comes first, then CO2 levels....................


And there's a demonstrable mechanism for this? Because it's not a real phenomenon if there's no mechanism.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 48
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Effects of flooding on human development?
Posted: 10/10/2011 3:35:22 PM

Anthropological global warming is a not true anywhere to any extent that it would cause any of the melting that those who refuse to look at the order of how things work in nature think it does. Warming comes first, then CO2 levels....................
Paul K


It has been demonstrated that there are Co2 negative feedback loops. The latest spike in Co2 levels in the atmosphere coincided exactly with the fossil fuel burning boom. As the world warmed while Co2 levels rose, the chemistry of the oceans changed with acidification and a negative feedback loop from phytoplankton, algae, and other surface vegetation, increasing Co2 levels as their growth cycles changed. The same this is occuring with peat and permafrost soil ecosytems, releasing carbon bombs from the warming itself. It is replicated in forests as well, when warming and drought extremes combine with opportunistic pestilence and disease, to cause widespread brownouts, releasing not only the above ground carbon via fires, and blowdowns after brownouts, but also releasing carbon stored in soils for centuries, much of it sequestered from previous antropogenic carbon pumping into the atmosphere.

To say one only comes before the other, is a very simplistic and unrealistic scenario. Negative feedback loops seem to be increasing. The phytoplankton issue is addressed in the link in message 72.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 49
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Effects of flooding on human development?
Posted: 10/10/2011 6:11:05 PM

Anthropological global warming is a not true anywhere to any extent that it would cause any of the melting that those who refuse to look at the order of how things work in nature think it does.

That ^^^, for some reason, casts homo sapiens as mere observers. It ignores that we are not only part of this "how things work in nature" thing you speak of, but active players.
As participants we've interfered with "how things work in nature" without understanding the consequences.

There are numerous examples of that ^^^ throughout history, not to mention plenty of scientific evidence to support a conclusion that we're about to get another lesson in the inter-relatedness of the global eco-system.

For instance, there is a theory that the decimation of whales has had a negative effect, through various complicated mechanisms, on the various micro-organisms on which they feed. This in turn has negatively affected the health of the southern oceans, which then... just like tumbling dominoes, has reduced the capacity of the global 'ocean' to act as a carbon sink.

Even without going (again) into the years of data, which some find so unconvincing, commonsense would indicate that digging up, in just the past few hundred years, all the carbon (coal and oil) that's been locked in the ground for millennia and burning it is going to have some effect.

Those that disregard this are just doing the same thing as those in the past who saw the land, the rivers, and the lakes as infinite dumps. We know that attitude wasn't valid or sustainable in the past, yet many seem to think it doesn't also apply now to the oceans and atmosphere.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 50
Effects of flooding on human development?
Posted: 10/10/2011 7:54:32 PM

Yes, plankton. When the oceans warm, plankton absorbs less co2. The warming of the oceans also push more water vapour into the atmosphere which in turn is the major cause of warming.

Don't forget that this additional water vapour will also block out the sun's UV radiation causing us to plunge into an ice age. This can be seen repeatedly in core samples over long periods of time. In times of temp rise followed by co2 level rise the planet suddenly freezes over.


Citation?
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