Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > Occupy Wall Street      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 Doremi_Fasolatido
Joined: 2/14/2009
Msg: 426
view profile
History
Occupy Wall StreetPage 18 of 53    (13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53)
Mr Iceman. I am a Union skilled tradesman and have been for 30 yrs. now. I can say my union has changed drastically from when I started till now. We've always had work quality and production standards enforced by a board made up of our contractors [mgmt.] and union officers. Offending members can be fined, and or fired if the infraction so warrants. To insure top quality work we have an excellent apprenticeship program that is sponsored by both contractors and our union....WORKING TOGETHER.

And of course OWS and unions have a lot in common. They are coming together now and I'd say it's a good thing. The OWS has good intentions but were accused of not knowing who or what to be angry at. The unions know exactly who to be angry at and have the political clout to do something about it... Plus, they have experience in organizing large groups of like minded people. Strength in numbers. And, not just those in the streets but those sympathizing and going to work everyday ....
 nipoleon
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 427
view profile
History
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 10/26/2011 8:33:43 PM
Every good businessman and Free Market Libertarian has studied the works of Adam Smith, the author of the " bible " of Free Market theory, " The Wealth of Nations ".

Here are a couple of my favorite Adam Smith quotes.




No society can surely be flourishing and happy of which by far the greater part of the numbers are poor and miserable. ”
Adam Smith

Our merchants and masters complain much of the bad effects of high wages in raising the price and lessening the sale of goods.
They say nothing concerning the bad effects of high profits.
They are silent with regard to the pernicious effects of their own gains.
They complain only of those of other people.
Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations
 timetogo3223
Joined: 9/29/2011
Msg: 428
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 10/27/2011 3:14:09 AM
Still....



The unions know exactly who to be angry at and have the political clout to do something about it... Plus, they have experience in organizing large groups of like minded people. Strength in numbers. And, not just those in the streets but those sympathizing and going to work everyday ....


How about being less "angry" and more constructive? By the unions siding with the Occupy Drum Bang, you are now finding yourself on the side of violence in many cities, obstruction of justice and the interference with the Real 99% of the schlubs who have to somehow work their way around the mob action to get to and from the jobs they have -- jobs that, on the average, are less well paying than a typical union job. Way to go, brother. That's going to win unions more fans.

The real problem, long-term, is not with the trade unions or the truckers or the like; it's with the public unions. These parasites are sucking the very life out of the communities they work in with their constant demands of higher raises each and every year. A for instance: public school teachers in many communities are earning about twice the per capita income than the residents they are taxing. These public union goons can never be fired. They teach your kids rot and demand more and more.

It's not wonder unions and the drum bangers are in solidarity: they want more from the Real 99% and they want laws to make it so.

Remember Eastern Airlines? Injured by management, killed by their unions.
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 429
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 10/27/2011 4:48:56 AM

Remember Eastern Airlines? Injured by management, killed by their unions.


Actually, some of us do remember Frank Lorenzo as the death knoll of Eastern Airlines.

Unable to keep up, Borman agreed to the sale of the airline in 1986 to Texas Air, led by Frank Lorenzo. Lorenzo (who was named as one of Time Magazine's 10 "worst bosses of the century") was known as a ruthless corporate raider and union buster.

Although Eastern's employees saw Lorenzo at the time as a savior, he would prove to be anything but a hero to the employees by the end of the decade. This event is widely seen as the beginning of the unwinding of the company, and the beginning of a steep decline into a period that saw strikes, empty planes, mass layoffs, bankruptcy, and eventually a ceasing of operations.

During Lorenzo's tenure, Eastern was crippled by severe labor unrest. Asked to accept deep cuts in pay and benefits, on March 4, 1989 Frank Lorenzo locked out Eastern's mechanics and ramp service employees, represented by the IAM (International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers). Concerned that if Lorenzo was successful in breaking the IAM he would do the same to the pilots' and flight attendants' unions, the pilots represented by ALPA (Air Line Pilots Association) and flight attendants represented by TWU (Transport Workers Union) called a sympathy strike. Those actions effectively shut down the airline's domestic operations. Non-contract employees, including airport gate and ticket counter agents and reservation sales agents, did not honor the strike. Due to the lockout and sympathy strike flights were canceled, resulting in the loss of millions of dollars in revenue.[citation needed]

According to Jack E. Robinson's book "Free Fall" about Eastern and its bankruptcy, Lorenzo seriously considered a sale of Eastern to Peter Ueberroth immediately following the lockout. Issues over interim management while the sale was being processed eventually caused the deal to fall through. Although other buyers, such as Jay Pritzker expressed interest in the airline, Lorenzo eventually declared Eastern as being "not for sale".[13]

Lorenzo sold Eastern's shuttle service to real estate magnate Donald Trump in 1989, under whom it became the Trump Shuttle, while selling other parts of Eastern to his Texas Air holding company and its major subsidiary, Continental Airlines, at terms disadvantageous to Eastern.[citation needed] In 1989, George Berry, the Georgia Industry and Trade Commissioner, asked Eastern to consider moving its headquarters from the Miami area to the Atlanta area.[14]

As a result of the strike, weakened airline structure, inability to compete after deregulation and other financial problems, Eastern filed for bankruptcy protection on March 9, 1989.[15] This gave Lorenzo breathing room, and allowed him to continue operating the airline with non-union employees. When control of the airline was taken away from Lorenzo by the courts and given to Marty Shugrue, it continued operations in an attempt to correct its cash flow, but to no avail.[citation needed]

The management in the Miami-Dade county headquarters agreed to shut down Eastern. The airline stopped flying at midnight Saturday, January 19, 1991. During the previous evening reservation agents continued to take reservations and told callers that the airline was not closing. They were unaware of the shutdown decision. After the announcement, 5,000 of the 18,000 employees immediately lost their jobs. Of the remaining employees, reservation agents were told to report to work at their regular times, while other employees were told not to report to work unless specifically asked to do so. At the time many of Eastern's employees lived in the Atlanta, Miami, and New York City areas.[16]

As a result of the Eastern shutdown, many airline industry jobs were eliminated in the Miami and New York City areas.[17]

An asset liquidation sale was commenced later that year and provided Eastern's creditors with a payout.[citation needed]

Some of Eastern's former pilots helped found Kiwi International Air Lines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Air_Lines
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 430
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 10/27/2011 5:46:52 AM

You can disagree all you want , but when was the last time you've heard a union worker at a automotive place being fired? Im not talking let go or downsized


Yanno, sometimes one should stay in their area of expertise/knowledge.

I have been a shop steward twice...first in a shipyard as a steelworker....second as a professional employee in the financiel services industry....and both times followed my stint as a union steward by becoming a member of management (supervisory-non union).

And here's what I know about firing a union employee....just like any other employee they can be fired for any reason (or no reason) at any point in time....the only difference between a union and non-union employee, when it comes to firings, is the union employee will eventually have a hearing, between officials of the union and management, to determine if the firing was justified....and should no agreement be found the process will move eventually to arbitration....the non-union employee has no such protection....therefore, whenever firing a union emploree it is best to be justified and documented.


second most of the auto plants are automated and a assembly line, any body can do that job, you can train a monkey to do a autoworkers job.


Sigh...yanno...again I feel it's best when people talk about things they actually know about, and not speculate about things they don't...I have no expertice in what an autoworker does...but, I imagine they have more skill than a trained monkey.


If you say so, doesn't justify why they earn over $40.00 per hour or what ever they make


Driving one home would be tough for the plant's newest workers, whose annual pay is less than the $35,000 it costs to buy even the cheapest Enclave. Newly hired members of the United Auto Workers at GM, Ford and Chrysler earn about $14 per hour, half what veterans make under their current contract.

Read more: http://www.thesunnews.com/2010/06/19/1541266/new-uaw-hires-find-a-lower-pay.html#ixzz1bz9RwhyZ


If new hires make half of what a veteran makes and new hires make $14/hr...then veteran's make $28/hr....which is a far cry from over $40/hr...
 timetogo3223
Joined: 9/29/2011
Msg: 431
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 10/27/2011 6:20:07 AM
Bigbad...



Actually, some of us do remember Frank Lorenzo as the death knoll of Eastern Airlines....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Air_Lines


Apparently, Bigbad, Wiki is remembering for you. Some of us lived it.

Cut and past, cut and paste, cut and paste ---it's enough to exhaust anybody's fingers.
 unYOUsual
Joined: 8/11/2011
Msg: 432
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 10/27/2011 6:20:30 AM
maybe so but you fogot to factor in benefits, stock options, etc...not going to argue about it just saying they hire people off the street who end up doing the same jobs as the allegedly "skilled" laborers.As far as firing union employees yes it is possible but no it isn't as easy as you make it out....the process is a pain and in most cases the employee keeps their job.
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 433
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 10/27/2011 6:34:47 AM

maybe so but you fogot to factor in benefits, stock options, etc...not going to argue about it just saying they hire people off the street who end up doing the same jobs as the allegedly "skilled" laborers.As far as firing union employees yes it is possible but no it isn't as easy as you make it out....the process is a pain and in most cases the employee keeps their job.


Union employee's get stock options??? Somehow, I think that the top management gets all the stock options and stock grants....at least that's the way it is in the fortune 500 company I work for....and BTW....I've been here for 25 years...they've been here for 10 or less....the exec's get their pensions, health insurance, and perks at retirement...not me.

As to firings...everyone I fired stayed fired...and I actually worked in a union shop...twice...therefore, I speak with experience.

Back, 35 years ago...when I worked as a steelworker in a shipyard...they hired people off the street and gave them the same work I was doing...and if these "street people" worked hard and learned the job they moved up the step ladder in payscale...but, off the street, these "street people" did not have the skill of a skilled steel worker...they could not weld with the precision of a skilled welder...they could not read the intricate plans/blue-prints that a skilled worker could read...and if they could they could not envision how to fabricate the steel into a component to install on a nuclear submarine....it generally took years for a "street person" to become a skilled steelworker and therefore, took years to move up the step ladder in payscale.
 BalderDog2
Joined: 1/6/2011
Msg: 434
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 10/27/2011 6:37:55 AM

Every good businessman and Free Market Libertarian has studied the works of Adam Smith, the author of the " bible " of Free Market theory, " The Wealth of Nations ".


I doubt many of them even have a copy of it, let alone have read it.

It has been a long time since I read it, but if I remember correctly, Smith believed taxes should be based on benefit--those who benefit the most, should pay a higher tax for t hat benefit. The wealthy, having more to protect from invaders, should pay a higher tax to maintain an army to protect that wealth, than those citizens who have less. The wealthy, who through commerce, make more use of roads, should be taxed at a higher rate to maintain those roads, than those who have less.

And so on.

So...

Adam Smith advocated a progressive tax system, where the wealthy pay a higher rate than the poor.
 Cdn_Iceman
Joined: 12/1/2010
Msg: 435
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 10/27/2011 6:46:09 AM
Oh really Irish, you're telling me a new worker in a auto plant makes $14.00 and hour? is that what you are telling me? and even if this is true explain why a veteran earns twice as much as a newbie ?

Second I don't read the news, or watch many of the news stations, they tend to distort facts and logic, If they tell me the sky is blue and sunny Im going to go out and check for my self.


I have been a shop steward twice...first in a shipyard as a steelworker....second as a professional employee in the financiel services industry....and both times followed my stint as a union steward by becoming a member of management (supervisory-non union).
and that isn't working in a automotive plant? I don't get the comparison

Ive owned and run businesses that gross incomes over a million dollars plus per year that doesn't mean I can run a Shipyard Business or a Professional sports franchise , business is business to a degree , but differ to some degree.

I'm on the financial end of the business so I do understand more than you think, yeah I tend to throw in some sarcasm ( as in the monkey thing) did you really believe me when I said a monkey can work there, it was sarcasm folks.

My point was ANY ONE can work at a automotive plant, its doesn't take special knowledge, like factory work, I'm not looking down at them its just not specialized work, when some of them earn more that folks that are actually doing dangerous things eg, Firefighters, paramedics, Nurses, Law Enforcement and other important things like Teachers.

A skilled tradesman is a different story, its takes years and years of education, knowledge,skilled ( hence the worked skilled) to do what they do, not everyone can do that, I was arguing with a guy earlier where he said Autoworkers are as important as a Pilot and I almost fell off my chair and thought WTF?

For the record I'm not putting down auto workers , I just don't see why they earn more than certain skilled folks.
 Doremi_Fasolatido
Joined: 2/14/2009
Msg: 436
view profile
History
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 10/27/2011 8:10:08 AM
Time, anger is usually one of the first emotions to be felt when someone realizes they're being screwed. I would never condone violence in these demonstrations either. Unfortunately, it sometimes happens and I'd say there is enough blame for it to go around on OWS side and Law Enforcement.

And, being more constructive in what needs changed is exactly what the Unions could help OWS with. I do know that a lot of people are concerned about a lot of different issues in our country now. Cohesion into a solid unit and presenting these issues to those in charge peacefully and lawfully is a step in the right direction.
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 437
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 10/27/2011 10:57:29 AM

Oh really Irish, you're telling me a new worker in a auto plant makes $14.00 and hour? is that what you are telling me? and even if this is true explain why a veteran earns twice as much as a newbie ?


Because it's a contractural agreement.


and that isn't working in a automotive plant? I don't get the comparison


Well slick, a shop steward has similar functions in all work places.


My point was ANY ONE can work at a automotive plant, its doesn't take special knowledge


And you know this how???From your functions as a businessman and business owner...

I don't get the comparison



tend to throw in some sarcasm ( as in the monkey thing) did you really believe me when I said a monkey can work there, it was sarcasm folks.


Funny that you, who uses sarcasm, cannot see it used on you in return.

Really, my point is this...just like all CEO's haven't pilfered the corporate coffers...neither have all union workers been lazy, unskilled, over-paid slobs....yes, unions did have to much power...though, I'd also argue that management had just as much power or more, but did not use it to hold down wages and benefits.

But, one cannot argue the benefits that unions have brought to workers throuighout America...workplace safety....40 hour work weeks....improved working conditions.

So, now the tide turns away from unions having excessive power and control...yet, top executives still vote on boards of trustees for the cronies compensation packages and get the same favors returned....top executives still have no true loyalty to companys that they work for on the averave of 6.8 years total.....executives still ship American jobs oversea's to countries that have little enviromental concern...little concern for worker safety or working conditions...executives still take all the corporate welfare they can grab...and stick it to the tax payer any time they can.
 Cdn_Iceman
Joined: 12/1/2010
Msg: 438
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 10/27/2011 11:18:30 AM
You can argue all you want Irish, there is good and bad in everything, Not all business owners are corrupt thieves looking for government welfare, not all corporations are bad and run by idiot management

America has lost the manufacturing race to Asia, that's what happens when technology comes in, its called progression , let those jobs go to the third and second world countries, let us develop the new technology for tomorrow ( today) new jobs, new careers etc.

Unions are bad for America or any other Country. There never has been an industry that was profitable and then unionized and stayed profitable. That includes steel and the American auto industry. Unions now involved in all federal State and City Governments and worst of all with our schools. They demand bigger wages and entitlements then common sense should tell them taxpayers cannot afford. Most union members are good God fearing people who love there country but they are swayed by union leaders how to vote.

The justification for unions is Karl Marx's labor theory of value- the sole source is profit is from underpaying workers. If wages were fair, the profit would have to be zero. The truth of the matter is that profit is a transfer from losing investors to winning investors, and HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH RIPPING OFF WORKERS. Unions get monopoly powers from laws, like the Wagner act of 1935. Here is some truth I want you to never forget- UNIONS GAINS ARE DUE TO SUPPRESSING THE WAGES OF NON-UNION WORKERS. Yes, unions STEAL from the non-union. The supply of labor is less in the union areas, and is increased in the non-union areas, thus lowering their wages.
 nipoleon
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 439
view profile
History
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 10/27/2011 11:38:20 AM
Modern Free Market dogma is not a theory, it's a religion.
If you go to a conference of Libertarians, the preachers will pull out their copies of " The Wealth of Nations " and thump it like the Bible at a revival meeting.
But like most fundamentalists, they have not read their Bible or tried to absorb it's true meaning. They only know what others have told them about it.

Here is the most radical thing Adam Smith ever said....


“Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is in reality instituted for the defense of the rich against the poor, or of those who have some property against those who have none at all.”
― Adam Smith


You'll never hear Ayn Rand or Rush Limbaugh admit that.

---------------------

On another matter.....

Labor Unions are not about wages or benefits, despite what is popularly told.
Labor Unions are about dignity and working conditions.

The UAW was started because auto workers were given a bucket to pee in so they wouldn't have to leave the assembly line to use the bathroom.

No Labor Union was ever started over wages.
Every Labor Union was started because of working conditions.
 Cdn_Iceman
Joined: 12/1/2010
Msg: 440
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 10/27/2011 11:47:34 AM

Labor Unions are not about wages or benefits, despite what is popularly told.
Labor Unions are about dignity and working conditions.

The UAW was started because auto workers were given a bucket to pee in so they wouldn't have to leave the assembly line to use the bathroom.

No Labor Union was ever started over wages.
Every Labor Union was started because of working conditions.
and now they have exploited the employers a full swing the other way, by the way which had to be bailed out too, and still went bankrupt, but of course its not totally the unions fault right?
 RichenLosAngeles
Joined: 11/14/2010
Msg: 441
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 10/27/2011 11:52:04 AM
"It is non union workers who benefit from the gains union workers have won."
Question - Is it the WORKERS who have won gains, or is it really the back room deals of money laundering between politicians and unions?

Next question - What does it mean to be poor in America? Don't we keep hearing Rich vs. Poor? I looked it up,,,,

L.A. Times Sept. 14, 2011

"The Census Bureau has released disturbing new numbers, showing the population of poor Americans at 46.2 million, or 15.1% of the population last year. That's the highest rate in 17 years and the largest number in 52 years.

The Census Bureau defines 2010 poverty as $22,314 for a U.S. family of four. Median household income remains just under $50,000.

The disappointing poverty information was widely disseminated and attributed by media to high unemployment nationally (above 9% for 25 of the last 27 months) and to the economy, which has remained stagnant despite nearly $1 trillion of government stimulus spending by the Obama-Biden administration.

Less noticed Tuesday, however, was the release of another non-government report on U.S. poverty, this one by the Heritage Foundation. It paints a dramatically different portrait of poverty in America than the popular conception of stark deprivation -- hungry people wearing rags and living in cars or boxes.

Using the same Census Bureau data, Robert Rector and Rachel Sheffield looked into the actual living conditions of America's official poor.

And here are some of the startling steretype-shattering things they discovered:

During the year 4% of the poor became temporarily homeless. Forty percent live in apartments, less than 10% in mobile homes or trailers and about 50% live in standard one-family homes. In fact, 42% own their own home.

The vast majority are in good repair, with more living space per person than the average non-poor person in Britain, France or Sweden.

Ninety-six percent of poor parents say their children were never hungry during the year due to an inability to afford food.

Eighty percent of poor households have air conditioning and 92% have a microwave.

One-third of poor households have a wide-screen plasma or LCD TV, 70% have a VCR and two-thirds have satellite/cable TV, the same proportion as own at least one DVD player.

Half of the povery households have a personal computer and one-in-seven have two or more.

And half of those with children have a video game system like Xbox.

Almost 75% have a car or truck and nearly a third have two.

Other than that, being poor in America is just like you thought."

It's confusing to me what "poor" is,,,
 Lint Spotter
Joined: 8/27/2009
Msg: 442
view profile
History
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 10/27/2011 12:05:09 PM

"The Census Bureau has released disturbing new numbers, showing the population of poor Americans at 46.2 million, or 15.1% of the population last year. That's the highest rate in 17 years and the largest number in 52 years.

The Census Bureau defines 2010 poverty as $22,314 for a U.S. family of four. Median household income remains just under $50,000.
Read the other thread on here about a person receiving one of the long census forms, I wouldn't trust the information given out by a census bureau... far too many tin hat wearers responding to those census polls.
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 443
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 10/27/2011 12:09:31 PM
"Not all business owners are corrupt thieves"

I don't we say all of anything is bad. The businesses I have referred to are public corporations, not private businesses. In these cases, if you own stock, you have NO say in what the company does.

"not all corporations are bad and run by idiot management"

2 things on this, first "idiot management" would result in running the company out of business. "poor management" would not address product improvement, costs, and growth. They are more interested in what they make then what the company makes. (IE auto industry especially from 70's, steel industry from the 60's).

"not all corporations are bad"

No but almost all are amoral. Profit is their ONLY goal. There is no conscience in a corporation itself, we always hope that the people who run them have one. I'm sure they do, when it comes to their personal life, they go to church, have a family. BUT when it comes to decisions, history is littered with amoral decisions by CEO's CFO's and other executives and the board(who usually comments after the misdeed "duh we didn't know)

Just to be sure you understand, GE and pollution, Ford and the exploding Pinto, BP and their drilling in the gulf. Heck a good example today is one of America's largest corporations, and most controversial, Walmart! There have been sooo many articles, it's hardly worth citing examples. While be all means they offer lower prices than most any other retailer. But examine the wreckage left in their wake. They open a store, drive small businesses in towns out. In EVERY case, wages decline within that town. Not to mention they hire 150-200 people at minimum wage, with no benefits, while reducing employment by local business at well over 250 jobs in the average town.

Now let's look at their supply chain. 80% or more of the products they offer are produced outside of the USA. So in addition to killing small retail businesses and jobs in a town, they drive manufacturing overseas to compete with labor costs.

Corporations will always have their own self interest in mind. Here in this country, you have the lobbyists who work the political scene for the corporate agendas. They can contribute huge amounts of money, to sway issues in their favor. Instead of operating within the law, they try and write them in their favor.

Now when executives make decisions like that, about their own compensation packages with their cronies on the board, spend money to curtail laws. How does that benefit shareholders, the true owners of the business? How exactly is that moral or the act of a moral man running that company?

edit to add: "of course its not totally the unions fault right?"

No the union played a role, just like poor planning, inferior products, poor quality control, executive compensation did as well.

If you offer a product no one wants to buy, or they view Japanese and Eurpoean products as superior, who's fault is that? The worker or the idiots who were running the company?

My daughter had a ford mustang from the mid 90's, I leased it for her while she was in college. By the end of the lease, it sounded like a rock band with all the rattles and nosies. My Benz, 4 years older was in better shape, we returned the car and I gave her the Benz, she got 5 more years out of it!

If a CEO is in charge of steering the ship, makes his big bucks, but returns the market a POS product, that no one wants to buy, how is that the people who builds them fault?
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 444
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 10/27/2011 12:41:41 PM
"It's confusing to me what "poor"is,,,"

Well no wonder you are!! Your reading a Heritage Foundation report! Personally I would go with the census data, but you wouldn't buy into that. Now I could go and find some left wing report that would skew the facts the other way.

Gotta love it, when a foundation founded by people in support of Ronald Reagan say, "oh no their doing just fine!"

The Heritage foundation was founded on the principles of free enterprise(no regulations), limited government(no EPA, SEC, CFTC, or other watchdog gov agencies, individual freedoms (guns, but no abortions), traditional american values(you can fill in your own zany thing here), and a strong national defense(even if russia is gone, keep spending on bombs and missles).

At least try and find a group that represents an unbiased opinion. Now I don't know that many poor people, though I would doubt they live as good as all that. Certainly the few I do know, don't. Why not take a trip to Harlem, or some other poor area? I say that because you can look up at the windows(those buildings don't have central air) and see how many have window units, I can assure you it ain't 70%.
 Cdn_Iceman
Joined: 12/1/2010
Msg: 445
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 10/27/2011 12:54:15 PM
Oyvay, change that some Executives are immoral, lots of good companies out there, but we don't talk about them because its not a sexy story, its sexier to bring up the bad companies.

Its like people talk about how wonderful unions are , which Im sure a few are but so what? there are good and bad in everything, all these union lovers don't talk about how some of the biggest unions were infiltrated by the Mob for so many years, Union money with help of the Mob built Vegas, Construction cost were among the highest in New York because the Gambino, Lucchesse and Genevese crime families had a strangle hold on the unions and now law enforcement thanks to the R.I.C.O act has rid it self of these criminals strangle hold

Lets not forget that poor bas tard Hoffa, where ever he is buried.

But back to the auto worker A Suburban is not worth $45-$50K when I can buy a Toyota for half, you may say it kills American made products but ask your self why? why is Toyota, Honda and other non American companies that makes automobiles turning a profit? and you will see none of them have unions which means no high legacy cost, now Im looking at it from a financial point of view , you are looking at it as its takes away jobs.

Ford company is making better cars, its learned its lesson, didn't take bail out money ,and didn't go bankrupt, but the unions made all sorts of concessions because its learning sometimes its better not to cut off the hands that feeding you, hey im all for the protection of workers, better working conditions makes better employees and so on and so on.

If we are going to say Corporations are greedy, lets be fair and look at the whole picture instead of some CNN /Fox news lynching of the corporations that are bull shit
 want to travel
Joined: 7/29/2006
Msg: 446
view profile
History
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 10/27/2011 1:07:47 PM
God after reading the posts, I honestly hope , pray, beg....!!!!
that a certain person who says he works in 'finance' is in fact in the mail room
judging by the fact that he comes from a pretty nasty city in the orbit of Toronto, and his overly simplistic views on financial matters, I think canada is still safe! lol
one half of Canadian businesses do not pay income taxes
the Big labour unions have made huge concessions , and work With the large manufacturing companies, to make sure these companies do well

the problem is the current economic model has failed,period!!!
It does not work anymore,period!

all it would take is a public comment by the Chinese government,indicating that it would like to cash in some US bonds, for the world to go into economic chaos again
our governments are so debt ridden ,that there is no way these debts can be repaid, yet alone managed ......
wall street and the central Banking system of credit is no longer working
A new economic model has to be found
Major reform is needed, and needed fast
 timetogo3223
Joined: 9/29/2011
Msg: 447
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 10/27/2011 1:40:26 PM
want....





the problem is the current economic model has failed,period!!!
It does not work anymore,period!




I agree, but not the way you think. The old statist model practiced to the hilt by Obama and true believers before him have failed. It is government distortion of the free market that has led to the current problems, from the mortgage crisis to the student loan problem to the out of control medical expenses.

Wishful thinkers have been longing for the next and newest economic model since the beginning of modern exchange. Economic laws are immutable. The do not and cannot change no matter what the era no matter what is the common currency.

Those who want the next best thing usually end up backing into a command and control system, because they want security. There is no security. Repeat: no security. Command and control fails, hybrids of command and control and enterprise fail.

The only system that works is one that is "controlled" from the bottom up, and that is the one that allows the most freedom of choice amongst the greatest number. This is an organic system. Everything else is false and will fail. It will. There is no earthly way of getting around it.
 Cdn_Iceman
Joined: 12/1/2010
Msg: 448
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 10/27/2011 2:12:20 PM

God after reading the posts, I honestly hope , pray, beg....!!!!
that a certain person who says he works in 'finance' is in fact in the mail room
judging by the fact that he comes from a pretty nasty city in the orbit of Toronto, and his overly simplistic views on financial matters, I think canada is still safe! lol
one half of Canadian businesses do not pay income taxes
the Big labour unions have made huge concessions , and work With the large manufacturing companies, to make sure these companies do well
And you're a technician and never owned a business and you want to comment on finances and economics dont hurt yourself at the rally okay? a little arrogant of you Id say, if you actually knew what you were talking about we can have a conversation, I own a business and I pay my taxes, I work with business and they pay their taxes, perhaps you referring to the companies that employs the " double Irish" and " dutch sandwich" arrangements, but then again that's for US Companies, we don't have that rule in Canada thank the Lord, I dont know where you get your numbers on half of Canadian business don't pay taxes is ludicrous unless you have figures and proof of this?



the problem is the current economic model has failed,period!!!
It does not work anymore,period!
and you're just figuring this out now? most folks in the financial has been saying that for years so what is your point?



all it would take is a public comment by the Chinese government,indicating that it would like to cash in some US bonds, for the world to go into economic chaos again
our governments are so debt ridden ,that there is no way these debts can be repaid, yet alone managed ......
wall street and the central Banking system of credit is no longer working
A new economic model has to be found
Major reform is needed, and needed fast
Oh its that simple? good thing you're not on the Finance Ministers staff or we be in real trouble? Do you even know how money works? Bank of Canada, how money and treasury bills come about ? doubt it if you did you would understand what you just said is ridiculous. I hate to break it to you but China isn't debt free, most countries are in debt, there is only 5 countries that I know of that doesn't carry debt, China isn't one of them, so before you open your mouth and try and sound intelligent do your homework first.

And who the hell are you to put down my city, look where you are from? you think Windsor is a economic haven?
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 449
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 10/27/2011 2:29:21 PM
"instead of some FOX/CNN lynchings"

Well you almost had me! Right up until you quoted the name Fox. They are farrrrrrr from liberal. I have yet to a single story that doesn't slant to the right on that network! I'm sure everyone is aware of Murdoch's phone tapping scandal? You know the one he says "I had no idea that was going on", yeah, another great CEO for all times!

A man of the fourth estate who routinely bullies poiliticans with his news machine. Nice independent reporting that, don't you think?

As far as changing things, WOW! Now that's a tough one.

I'll give it a wack! First term limits for all in Congress, no more getting comfortable in DC for life. These guys spend 3-4-5 terms in office, then when voted out, they open an office on K street as a lobbyist, lobbying the very committees they ran or were a major player in. All very cozy.

Then enough of this nonsense about lifetime pensions after 1 term, give them a 401K their all so enamoured with, with a contirbution akin to what is given in the private sector. NO more life time health benefits, since most of pay for our benefits, why can't they?

Enact a law about enforcing standards of truth. Now this will raise a little ire! If you wish to publicly embelish something, as an elected official, you may be censured and fined for foisting directly misleading information on the public. Make the fining simple , 5K, 25K, 100K, if you do it again, your OUT! A special election is held to replace them.

Gone then will be most of the lies that prey upon the citizens and influence elections.

Enact another law, that will limit lobbyists access to government officials, in a monetary sense. No more free private jets, no more skiing, shooting weekends. No more island visits. No single entity can use more than $500 to influence legislation.

While these may not be the end all be all, it would be a great start. BUT there's a problem with our government, the Congress votes on their own pay and benefits, so I doubt this will EVER pass. Why would any of these greedy, lawyer bast^rds ever do this?

As for corporations, barr them from the election process. They ARE NOT people, maybe individual entities, but as such are not entitled to a vote. Since that is the case, why are they allowed to participate in anyway?

Most corporations were not at fault for things done long ago, we didn't have the science to know what some things used in products would do to the environment. Now that we do, fines and levies should be extremely punitive, when someone knows their doing wrong, but does it anyway. Fines should start at 25 million and have a cap of a billion, doubling with each additional count.

Don't want the fine? Don't do the crime!

That makes it better for the investor, knowing mangement has their ACTUAL best interest at heart..additionally jail time for any who knew!
 timetogo3223
Joined: 9/29/2011
Msg: 450
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 10/27/2011 3:37:15 PM
Paul K...



Canyou be a little more specific about the "bottom up" system? How would crime be controlled, from whom would those that enforce laws derive their power? Or are you envisioning a society that is always peaceful, with no one committing any crime at all?


Paul, I think you can gather from my posts here that I am no utopian, though I do like John Lennon's "Imagine" -- it's melody, that is.

I am speaking of economic laws, which are simply math. Now as far as enforcement of crime, including economic crime, I believe in the rule of law. Reasonable laws regarding commerce and tort. What we have now in the US and in most of the developed world is rule of man. The most recent for instance is Obama's executive order regarding student loans. With the stroke of a pen he does what he wants and further distorts the market and piles more debt upon both the students and the taxpayer. Our Constitution empowers Congress to make law, yet the executive -- be it GWB or BHO-- are now our "law givers".

Man by nature is flawed. There will always be crime. There must be enforcement of reasonable laws.

Man, try as he might, cannot change the laws of economics. I don't care if rocks are being used as currency or gold or computer chips or the number of Facebook friends. Math is true; hence economic law is true. Man is not true, and must be policed by statute and not by "man".
Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > Occupy Wall Street