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 AUTHOR
 timetogo3223
Joined: 9/29/2011
Msg: 551
Occupy Wall StreetPage 23 of 53    (13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53)
Mr. Puppy...




Timetogo...
Rather than just make sh*t up about the OWS, do your own research and offer some citations. Just being a rushpuppy doesn't fly outside of the echo chambers.

It was interesting that the demographics poll solicited by Fox News, obfuscated by Fox, and then analyzed by someone without an agenda, placed the OWS folks squarely in middle America.

Yes, McCarthy is mostly dead, but his minions live on and have gotten worse in the past decade. What would you call people who see commies and socialists everywhere, attack and accuse without substantiation, labeling wide swaths of the political spectrum as socialists and commies? Sounds like the textbook definition of McCarthyism to me.

1. The practice of publicizing accusations of political disloyalty or subversion with insufficient regard to evidence.
2. The use of unfair investigatory or accusatory methods in order to suppress opposition.


Oh, god. What a bore. There's a McCarthy under every bed.

Like I want to look up crap on a bunch of drum banging, violent (as reported by that conservative bastion, ABC news), dirty mopes. Those who site chapter and verse do not impress me. TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK AND WHY! How about some dialog in stead of cut and paste? I'm interested in YOUR OPINIONS AND HOW YOU REACHED THEM.

A little corner of a dating site and arguments with people who think Joe McCarthy's hand is reaching up over their bed, is not worth it looking up sources. I'm not a journalist and either are the other posters on here. I could cut and paste forever, but I'm here to tell people what I think. Obviously it pisses some people off and they rush to the nearest liberal source because they cannot simply refute with reasoned dialog. I'd be more impressed if those same people could make rational arguments and have a discussion. A forum is supposed to be about opinion and discussion, not cut and paste. Who in the hell has time to read all that barf anyway?

And guess what....Joe McCarthy is still dead.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 552
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/6/2011 7:47:35 PM

Like I want to look up crap on a bunch of drum banging, violent (as reported by that conservative bastion, ABC news),

Like most network news, ABC news is a corporate bastion, as are its sponsors, if not a conservative bastion, per se. Therefor, it makes total sense why a movement urging for more stringent limits on corporate power and influence would get less than glowing coverage by many corporate owned and sponsored news networks.

How about some dialog in stead of cut and paste? I'm interested in YOUR OPINIONS AND HOW YOU REACHED THEM.

As a sage once said, "You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts." Many opinions here are based on claimed facts, and so they should be. Sometimes, people get their facts mistaken at best, or they just make sh!t up at worst. Hence, cites are often requested. Consider the cites offered voluntarily as saving people the trouble of asking for them. And it's certainly more polite than saying, "Find it yourself."

But, as another sage once said, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 553
view profile
History
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/6/2011 8:24:12 PM

.....I'm here to tell people what I think. Obviously it pisses some people off and they rush to the nearest liberal source because they cannot simply refute with reasoned dialog.

It's very difficult to 'refute' unreasoned diatribes that lack any rational basis, because the authors of such are generally impervious to logic. Your posts, and continuing advocacy of disproved factoids, illustrate this principle brilliantly.


I'd be more impressed if those same people could make rational arguments and have a discussion.

This is clearly untrue. Your posts, being littered with untrue propaganda, general insults, pejorative innuendo, and entirely unsupported defamatory comments are obviously intended to suppress 'rational' discussion.
So much has your posting style departed from reason you don't actually appear to even recognise the rational arguments being presented.


A forum is supposed to be about opinion and discussion, not cut and paste.

As much as you may wish it were so, you are not actually the arbiter of forum style.
I understand this may surprise you, but references are often used to present the foundation of an opinion. That is, the citation is a device to demonstrate the factual basis upon which an opinion may rest.
It seems a little odd that this concept is foreign to you, given your supposed enthusiasm for "reasoned dialogue" and "rational argument".


Who in the hell has time to read all that barf anyway?

People who really are interested in "reasoned dialogue" and "rational argument" perhaps?

For instance...
Like I want to look up crap on a bunch of drum banging, violent (as reported by that conservative bastion, ABC news), dirty mopes.

1 Marine vs. 30 Cops
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmEHcOc0Sys

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l05YG8PZb5c&feature
"A senior New York police officer accused of pepper-spraying young women on the "Occupy Wall Street" demonstrations is the subject of a pending legal action over his conduct at another protest in the city."
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2011/09/26-8

Marine Vet at Occupy Wall Street Tells Sean Hannity to F**k Off
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aaTGsGdp4c

occupy wall street - marine veteran rant against NYPD brutality - times square - oct15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEgymHDUYVQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_UHJTB2Ijk&feature
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REMak-m0jzc&feature
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8N-8jmh8CI&feature
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSn-IgwQAGY&feature
etc etc etc
 kari135
Joined: 9/1/2009
Msg: 554
view profile
History
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/6/2011 9:46:23 PM

People who really are interested in "reasoned dialogue" and "rational argument" perhaps?

You're wasting your time. There are certain posters in this thread who consistently see the reality they want to see, not the reality that's in front of them and around them.

It's too bad we can't post photos in this forum, some of them don't seem to have the ability to comprehend the written word. I've totally given up. Let them eat their own cake, and welcome to it. They can have my share - it's old and stale and moldy, anyway.
 timetogo3223
Joined: 9/29/2011
Msg: 555
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/7/2011 5:26:01 AM
fly...



Like most network news, ABC news is a corporate bastion, as are its sponsors, if not a conservative bastion, per se. Therefor, it makes total sense why a movement urging for more stringent limits on corporate power and influence would get less than glowing coverage by many corporate owned and sponsored news networks.


I see. So ABC is the McCarthy Network when you want it to be and the Peoples Press when it reports what you like? Here is a question, then, fly... if the new outlets are not trusted by you and operation Occupy Drum Bang, then why do you want more control over them? Who cares? I don't care if Politico goes on burbling and MSNBC and all the bloggers and posters out there in their underware, so why should they and you care. A bigger question is, who do you want doing the controlling and putting limits on? Let me guess. You want your Uncle. Uncle Sam, that is. The all-knowing tolerance of Big Sis will be better than choosing another news source? Crazy.


As a sage once said, "You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts." Many opinions here are based on claimed facts, and so they should be. Sometimes, people get their facts mistaken at best, or they just make sh!t up at worst. Hence, cites are often requested. Consider the cites offered voluntarily as saving people the trouble of asking for them. And it's certainly more polite than saying, "Find it yourself."

But, as another sage once said, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."


Why is everything you guys don't agree with schist? Why is everybody making things up except the great liberal enlightened, who get their news from the same under ware guys posting on YouTube? I don't welcome your volunteer help at saving me by posting info from guys with skid marks. Instead, why don't you actually try to reason with somebody? Why don't you tell me how you have arrived at a conclusion? You must be able to logically posit and respond and refute, no? Yeah, no.

Oh, would you please note your source for the "wise sages"?

Common knowledge says this: "you can lead a person to logic and reason, but you can't make them THINK".
 timetogo3223
Joined: 9/29/2011
Msg: 556
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/7/2011 5:34:50 AM
kari....




You're wasting your time. There are certain posters in this thread who consistently see the reality they want to see, not the reality that's in front of them and around them.


I certainly hope your cake is tasting better with Occupy Drum Bang frosting. Hate to think what goes into it....hope it's not chocolate frosting.

Some on here --ahem!-- are not interested in dialog at all, only personal emoting and the usual narcissist self-involvement.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 557
view profile
History
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/7/2011 5:39:55 AM

Many of the Occupy Drum Bangers are becoming violent. Do any of the enlightened posters on here think that they will do anything but illustrate to the Real99% that works and stays home that they are a bunch of radicals and spoiled brats and professional community organizers who are just out to cause trouble and have no concrete agenda except for redistribution of wealth (socialism).

How can anybody take these Drum Bangers for anything more than what they are: Obama/Soros created diversions?


One more time. Please substantiate all your claims about who you THINK the OWS people are. Feel free to google, copy and paste, or cite your wingnut sources of "knowledge" on the subject of the demographics.

The two actual surveys that I cited dispelled your claims. One of the surveys was commissioned by the fair and balance Fox News. Yet you refudiate your talking points masters.

I know many in the local Occupy movement including workers who lost jobs to china and mexico, Ministers, numerous veterans including freshly returned ones who cannot find work, teachers, nurses, and yes some students and many others. They are not who you condemn them as being. And I don't know anyone who would take marching orders from Obama or Soros. At best Obama is still the less evil option out there but not beloved by any stretch of the imagination. He's been a good moderate republican doing the bidding of the masters.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 558
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/7/2011 7:53:16 AM
timetogo:

It is ironic that you tout logic and reason while positing a basically nonsensical rant based upon false premises and poor, unflattering assumptions. Ironic in a bad way, that is. It's the old "Do as I say, not as I do" ploy. It actually seems to be the only sort of rhetoric you exhibit around here, so I guess I shouldn't be at all surprised at what is merely the latest lack of substance here.

Schist? I don't even know what that is. You also seem to have some odd fixation on people in their "underware" [sic]. You are arguing against points that aren't being made-- mere ghosts of your politically charged, hyperbolic imagination. An unfortunate waste of time, patience, and civility I'm afraid. I'll wait to address any arguments you may have when you actually construct a coherent one at the very least-- cogent may be asking too much.

You repeatedly announce that McCarthy is dead in another thread, yet it doesn't seem to curb your desire to invoke his name here. I mean, I certainly didn't mention him.
 kari135
Joined: 9/1/2009
Msg: 559
view profile
History
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/7/2011 8:02:05 AM

I certainly hope your cake is tasting better with Occupy Drum Bang frosting. Hate to think what goes into it....hope it's not chocolate frosting.

Some on here --ahem!-- are not interested in dialog at all, only personal emoting and the usual narcissist self-involvement.

And some on here insist on trying to trivialize the entire Occupy movement by denigrating it's name, while ignoring the fact that there are similar protests around the world - something over 2,400 of them outside the US.

Some also persist in ignoring the fact that any reasonably unbiased reporting is not done in the US, but by foreign news. But then, we Americans aren't supposed to trust anything like the London Telegraph, the International Business Times (but not the US edition), or any bloody other international news source. We should just stick with the same old tried and true Fox, CNN, whatever... but of course, those who own them have a vested interest in just what is reported, depending on who their 'friends' in DC are.

It's been so long since I've seen a newscast of any kind where the primary questions were not the standard who, what, where, when, and how. Now it's all "How did that make you feel?" asked of those whose children were killed in front of them, whose spouses died because of someone else's idiocy, whose home burned down with pets and family members lost to the flames as well.

Personally, I would rather be an emoting narcissist than someone so uninvolved with the rest of humanity in their own country, they see other people as an academic puzzle, not living beings.

If you reallly don't recognize the 'Let them eat cake' reference, I may have to reconsider becoming an ex pat. The educational system will have reached a new low.
 timetogo3223
Joined: 9/29/2011
Msg: 560
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/7/2011 8:21:01 AM
kari...



If you reallly don't recognize the 'Let them eat cake' reference, I may have to reconsider becoming an ex pat. The educational system will have reached a new low.


I understand the cake reference the same as I understand "eat your peas". The supreme arrogance of the ruling elite, which many here seem to want to submit to.

As far as becoming an ex-pat... could dreams come true?

Yes, I am now McCarthy-obsessed. I have watched Mr. Puppy and the YouTube authoritative under ware posters channel his ghost and have become enthralled. I am checking under my bed each night to make sure that he and his "minions" are not lurking.
 timetogo3223
Joined: 9/29/2011
Msg: 561
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/7/2011 8:26:13 AM
thebig....


now a young woman (23 y.o.) has died at "Occupy Vancouver" (BC) so Vancouver city officials are saying they will shut the protest down, early reports were that it was from IV drug use/overdoes, not officially confirmed as of yet.


Oh, heavens. Don't tell me the ghost of McCarthy has drifted north and has infected the officials in Vancouver? Will those up north, who consider themselves oh-so-tolerant actually shut down the drum banging?

What will the guys with skid marks on YouTube say? Will MSNBC condemn Canada?

Oh, Canada!


PS, I think I'd have to take drugs to numb my brain against the inane emoting of the uniformed and dirty.
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 562
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/7/2011 8:29:20 AM
"A forum is supposed to be about opinion and discussion"

There are plenty of opinion and discussion forums here on POF, the dating and relationship forums are great for that, you should try them!

Here we are dealing with facts, dates and how the business world works. Not imagined rules, or made up sh1t because you have no facts.

I have come to the conclusion, you have no belief at all. That you spin this garbage to get attention and nothing more. Now that is sad.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 563
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/7/2011 9:05:55 AM

the inane emoting of the uniformed and dirty.

(bolding added for emphasis)

A typo, no doubt, but considering the well-documented participation of vets and even active duty personnel in OWS, timetogo's disdain still fits!
 timetogo3223
Joined: 9/29/2011
Msg: 564
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/7/2011 12:04:17 PM
fly...


A typo, no doubt, but considering the well-documented participation of vets and even active duty personnel in OWS, timetogo's disdain still fits!


Never fails to amaze how all progressives and liberals can take a typ-o and create belief around it. Glad to know that you recognize the armed services, but even soldiers can be wrong.

Thanks for telling me what I think and how I think. So typical.
 timetogo3223
Joined: 9/29/2011
Msg: 565
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/7/2011 12:15:21 PM
OyVay....



I have come to the conclusion, you have no belief at all. That you spin this garbage to get attention and nothing more. Now that is sad.


What is sad is that you think I want attention from you. Actually, it's kind of funny.
The problem with the liberal cut and pasters here is that they cannot defend their beliefs with logic and reason and always devolve to personal attack.

You liberal guys and gals are great. I like you all, but you all wake up angry each day and point fingers at straw dogs that you think are chewing your legs, when you miss the big pit bull named DC that wants to swallow you whole. I'm only trying to engage you in discussion, but what I'm finding is that you all have to reach into YouTube to defend your positions; that you do not know enough history, economics and civics to do so with out your so-called "facts". And facts from YouTube posters in their PJ's are less than reliable.

As I said, don't ever change. I would say live long and prosper, but it sounds too capitalistic.

I'll be gone for awhile; I'm preparing my one man stage act on Joe McCarthy. I will be looking for a liberal choir to chime in, so if you are not doing anything in a few months... Yes, it's a comedy, but only the liberal part.
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 566
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/7/2011 12:59:32 PM

The problem with the liberal cut and pasters here is that they cannot defend their beliefs with logic and reason and always devolve to personal attack.


Really...I seem to remember you distinctly calling posters names...in nearly every post....and as to having an opinion...great...support it with facts...not other unsubstantiated opinions.



I know many in the local Occupy movement including workers who lost jobs to china and mexico, Ministers, numerous veterans including freshly returned ones who cannot find work, teachers, nurses, and yes some students and many others. They are not who you condemn them as being. And I don't know anyone who would take marching orders from Obama or Soros. At best Obama is still the less evil option out there but not beloved by any stretch of the imagination. He's been a good moderate republican doing the bidding of the masters.


The outsourcing of American jobs, to countries where the worker works 16 hour days for $4...how can an American worker compete with the finest capitalistic find of the 21st century-Cambodian child labor.

Of course, some of the evangelical wingnut right don't want to talk about the resurrection of Joe McCarthy as the New/Old Hero of the Conervative Right...it sounds too crazy for even some of the members of the right.
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 567
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/7/2011 1:04:22 PM
Time you'll get no argument out of me on DC! It's broken.

But I'm fairly sure what I consider broken, you consider fixed and vice versa.

We don't need to be the world's police man. We need to cut spending, BUT on all things, not just social programs. Even with that, no administration in the last 100 years was able to close the deficit with tax increases. So they must go up.

We must reform the freakin congress, with it's cowtowing to lobby's. With it's partisan politics. Every single adminstration that has bettered the american people as a whole, had input from both sides.

I neither need youtube, nor the rantings of anybody liberal or conservative to explain right from wrong. As for McCarthy, who cares? That dog won't hunt, gone long ago, with the hunt for mythical communists. Missing at the same time, the ones who did our nation wrong.

Funny, I see the conservatives rant on this and that, rail at socialism. I've never seen any of them not take a social security check or even opt out of it, which could be their choice as well.

Like I've said, you guys crack me up! You rant and rave about the good old days. But no one wants to go back to 90% top rate for income tax, or to live without social security as it was before it.

Good luck with your road show, be sure to book the south, you'll be a big hit there, especially if have a back up group like the "bible thumper five" playing for ya.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 568
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/7/2011 1:16:31 PM

I'm preparing my one man stage act on Joe McCarthy.

Sounds like a ventriloquist act. Should be extremely funny. However, not as funny as this little gem of yours:

you do not know enough history, economics and civics to do so with out your so-called "facts".

How annoyed you must be that posters let facts enter discussions involving history, economics and civics. Continue to lead the way on how it is done without the benefit of "facts."
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 569
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/7/2011 1:51:58 PM
Ok so let's imagine this issue of social security. First if conservative "would LOVE to get out", why not council their children to "opt out", no one is required to apply for a social security card. There are even forms to opt out. I mean if this is pure evil, why not do their own planning and paying for retirement? Since they have hated this as good conservatives ALL THEIR LIVES, and HATE socialism, they should have left 40 years ago right?

As for who raided it, I agree somewhat, both take credit for it. LBJ signed the first raid, although Nixon then implemented it, I guess if he was against it, he could have rescinded it, but he was too busy bombing Hanoi, and needed some extra spending cash.

Next came the biggest raid of all. Reagan did this in part to pay for his tax decrease. Then he changed his mind and raised taxes, but let the raid take place anyway.

Then came Clinton, in 93 he took a chunk as well. The final blow came under shrub, who spent it all on his tax reuctions and 2 wars.

As for the 90% rate and deductions. yeah I use deductions, don't you? Who doesn't?

But the point is, if your paying 35% and using deductions, or taking those same deductions with a top rate of 90%, you pay more. Right? The point is under shrub, the rich got a 100K rate decrease, joe average got less than 10K. It's kinda simple math Paul, I think you will be able to follow along 100k-10k= alot more money to richie rich than joe average.

Now we need to raise more, so what do the republicans want joe average give back you 10k, let's let richie rich keep his 90k, maybe he will pay you minimum wage as a gardener or chauffer?

Remember Paul, I want to hear about all you conservatives, getting their children to opt out of social security..you don't believe in it, why should they...right?

Yeah right !!!!
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 570
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/7/2011 2:22:51 PM
BUT you never have the balls to point out that NOBODY paid that amount, and that the amount generally paid was roughly 1/3 of that amount.............. But why let the facts get in the way of a great talking point, right?


PK, while I am sure that deductions reduced nearly every eligible effective tax rate in those days of the highest rate of 90%...I must point out to you that the rate started out at 90% and nearly everyone who was in that tax bracket didn't reduce their effective rate to 30%...in fact no one did....they all paid an effective rate of 50% or more....thats a fact.
 timetogo3223
Joined: 9/29/2011
Msg: 571
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/7/2011 4:11:44 PM
Oy...



Good luck with your road show, be sure to book the south, you'll be a big hit there, especially if have a back up group like the "bible thumper five" playing for ya.


Thanks for your good wishes. I'm sure my "Tales from Uncle Joe", will be a great hit. Liberals will come because they believe McCarthy still alive and conservatives will come because they liked McCarthy. Win, win. The only thing I wonder about is your suggestion of "bible thumpers" being part of the act. What do you think about "Koran Pounders" or "Talmud Thwackers?"? You seem only to slur one religious group, though I'm not surprised.

You'll wish you would have signed up as a liberal extra, or at least a stage hand, but opportunity occupies only once.

See ya, girls!
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 572
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/7/2011 4:23:12 PM

Thanks for your good wishes. I'm sure my "Tales from Uncle Joe", will be a great hit. Liberals will come because they believe McCarthy still alive and conservatives will come because they liked McCarthy. Win, win. The only thing I wonder about is your suggestion of "bible thumpers" being part of the act. What do you think about "Koran Pounders" or "Talmud Thwackers?"? You seem only to slur one religious group, though I'm not surprised.


Just to point out one little detail...It was a conservative constitutionalist that brought up, and keeps bringing up, the revisionist heroic deeds of Joe McCarthy in this thread...and a little "research" (something that could benefit all who have an opinion and wish to seem intelligent in their opinions should do) would reveal that some in the uber conservative right would like to be revisionists in resurrecting Joe McCarthy as an American hero...we democrats find this viewpoint highly repulsive and thought that McCarthy and his views died years ago...his views still live-apparently.

The bible thumping five is another reference to the corporate 5 -the 5 justices of the supreme court...yanno, the ones that are doing an end run, thru supreme court majority block voting, around the constitution.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 573
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/7/2011 5:55:38 PM
Thanks for taking the trouble to explain how marginal tax rates work, although I don't know if too many others here needed it-- glad you get it now in any case. It just furthers the point that seemingly high tax rates are not that high when deductions and margins of income are taken into account. Conversely, the income tax rates we have now are amazingly low-- lower than they would appear at first glance.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/15/top-marginal-tax-rates-chart_n_849596.html

The range of tax rates since 1916 is pretty dramatic. Can anybody notice what the highest marginal rates were in 1929, 1987, and 2006? And what is significant about those particular years?
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 574
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/7/2011 5:59:44 PM

BUT you never have the balls to point out that NOBODY paid that amount, and that the amount generally paid was roughly 1/3 of that amount.............. But why let the facts get in the way of a great talking point, right?


You know pk...my post point was why let facts get in the way...because your post was one based on an opinion, without the basis of fact...so, I posted the opposite opinion...using not one shred of fact...just an opinion...because it seems as though you uber-conservatives seem to post in this manner all the time...what I posted was tit for tat.

So, here's the skinny...the average effective marginal tax rate for those making over $200,000 in 1944 was just over 40%.
http://almostclassical.blogspot.com/2011/03/90-tax-rate-myth.html

You are very welcome to have me do your work for you.


The range of tax rates since 1916 is pretty dramatic. Can anybody notice what the highest marginal rates were in 1929, 1987, and 2006? And what is significant about those particular years?


25%, 38.5%, and 35%...it was the lowering of tax rates just prior to economic recessions/depressions.
 Double Cabin
Joined: 11/29/2004
Msg: 575
view profile
History
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/7/2011 6:12:00 PM
An officer shot a person shooting video in Oakland with a rubber bullet in apparently complete violation of departmental policy. Anyone that doesn't condem this is a posterior orifice IMO.
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