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 AUTHOR
 possibly now
Joined: 9/12/2009
Msg: 626
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Occupy Wall StreetPage 26 of 53    (13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53)
Wow! 747 responses so far! I haven't read them all. But, today in SLC, police are closing down the tent places in Pioneer Park and at the Gallivan Center because a homeless man died in a tent at the park. They found needles and a space heater (carbon monoxide) and the debate has shifted a bit. So far, I've been impressed with the respect the police officers, most elected officials, and the Occupy Salt Lakers have shown towards each other. Hope it continues that way. and I support the young people who are protesting so much that is wrong. I hope they don't give up.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 627
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/12/2011 3:51:56 PM
Interesting to read about Salt Lake City.

I know here in Vancouver pretty much all the original idealists have been replaced with "bullies and drug users" to quote a piece here - that was a statement by a person who abandoned the camp. The Occupy camps here were more in solidarity though - here in Canada things aren't an oligarchy like in your country.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 628
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Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/12/2011 4:12:16 PM
ice, THIS is an example of what I am asking you to support with actual facts:


They want Big Government to replace big business. They believe that politicians like Barack Obama, Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi will not only bring home the bacon, but distribute it fairly and equitably. Never mind that these politicians haven't the slightest idea where bacon comes from, have never produced bacon and merely seize bacon to give it to people who reward them with votes, money and power.


Prove it, or admit that it's your prejudiced suspicion, and nothing more.
 Cdn_Iceman
Joined: 12/1/2010
Msg: 629
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/12/2011 6:28:07 PM

Prove it, or admit that it's your prejudiced suspicion, and nothing more.
WTF are you talking about now ? prove what you want me to go through 30 pages of this thread to find some folks wanting the government to 1) regulate the Financial industry more? put these so called " thieves" in prison when all they did was found ways around the rules and regulations government set up in the first place?

I don't have the time or inclination to read every single response.

My point was the 99% are placing their faith in the Government to set things right, when they are the ones the Pooched screwed it in the first place

How did the government cause the current crisis?

Consider these examples. The Fed injected massive amounts of money and credit into our financial system from 2001 to 2004 that led to skyrocketing housing prices and fostered irresponsible borrowing and lending by market participants.

The Community Reinvestment Act of 1977 is used to intimidate banks and other mortgage lenders into making loans--such as subprime loans--in low- and moderate-income neighbourhoods. Many of these loans should never been made because they were made to borrowers who were not credit worthy. Making loans to people who cannot afford them is a policy that is destined to lead to a financial catastrophe.

In addition, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, enterprises created by the government to increase mortgage lending, foster irresponsible borrowing and lending by purchasing mortgage loans from lenders. Fannie and Freddie have been able to purchase large amounts of loans because, since their creation, they had the implicit financial backing of the government. Now that the government has taken them over, that backing is now explicit. Federal Home Loan Banks also engage in and foster irresponsible and excessive borrowing and lending. They can do this only because, as stated by The Wall Street Journal, they "benefit from a widespread belief the government would bail them out in a crisis."

Jesse Eisinger who at the time wrote for the Wall Street journal predicted the fall of Lehman brothers and Bear Sterns he wrote a November 2007 cover story titled "Wall Street Requiem," its there to read so how is that for facts.

The OWS protesters want a fair piece of the pie I get that , they want to make a living I get that, but to pounding on the steps of Wall Street for what? because some of the ass holes make 7 figures, who is to blame for that? CEO's has to answer to shareholders , the Financial industry is approximately 25% of the S&P , protesting these guys isnt going to a thing, Protesting big government and flushing out the lobbyist , and politicians in bed with these pricks WILL do something

Reagan had the right idea of deregulating the financial industry where he fell short was the regulations that followed and allowing powerful lobbyist to seep and corrupt, almost like the Mob and Big Unions, He wanted to reduce the size of government he didn't go far enough and allowed these " cancers" into Corporate America . you want Facts on that too?
 Home_for_30
Joined: 2/6/2010
Msg: 630
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/12/2011 7:31:39 PM
I have been watching the OWS protesst from afar...and the Iceman vs Igor comments...and after Googling 'What do the OWS protesters want' and reading several articles, I still don't have a clue. They seem to want everything from social and economic equality, end corporate greed, corruption to jobs for everyone. That is all well and good...wouldn't anyone want these things? But the questions is how...what changes are to be made. There is no one voice, no leadership, no true goals...just general 'wants'. They hate big business it seems, since the protests are against Wall Street...but isn't it the big businesses that hire the most people? They are against the financial institutions. However they only even exists because we the people invest our money in them. And both financial firms and big business are around to do one tihng, make money...for themselves and the share holders. Many seem to want more regulations, but don't trust or want big government. They seem to not like capitalism, but dont want communism either. The scream We are the 99%...When I Googled that...from what I read, that means the top 1% have 42% of the total wealth...but I also have read that an income of about $375k a year makes you in that 1%. These are the people that own there own things, not credit to the hilt...and have $$$ to invest...wealth, not credit. If you add in the next 19%, the top 20% have 93% of all the wealth in the US. (Again, taken from a few sites). So...do they want heavy taxes on that 1%....or the 20%? And is it fair just to tax people because they have and you don't? Many protesters seem to say that the American Dream was 'stolen' from them? Again, I am lost over this...stolen how? Not being a smart ass, but serious...how? If you read and listen, its Government..but we vote them in...it's big business...but almost all are based on consumer products we buy or $$$ we invest. I feel for people with no jobs and losing their homes, I am not heartless...but who is to blame...Government, Business, We the People? In the end...are the OWS protesters, just protesting to protest? Much like a child that is crying, but won't tell you why....
 possibly now
Joined: 9/12/2009
Msg: 631
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Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/12/2011 7:44:48 PM
I meant the same as you wrote. I'm glad many are responding and many are thinking. I think we all know there are big problems in the world's governments, many in my country, many in other countries, etc. I'm glad young people are involved. I hope it stays as peaceful as possible and I hope the thinking brings out the best in humanity. Change is what we need and change is messy and big.

I will look at the site you posted and think about it. And, I enjoyed your closing of peace to all. And, I second the sentiment!
pn
 BalderDog2
Joined: 1/6/2011
Msg: 632
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/12/2011 8:05:34 PM

but isn't it the big businesses that hire the most people?


Nope.

Small and medium sized businesses hire the most people. Next is those who are self-employed. The third is...um...um...EPA?...sorry, having a Rick Perry moment...

When Republicans in Congress, Fox News and Rush Limbaugh talk about the wealthy being the "Job Creators," they are simply lying to you.

 larissan04
Joined: 8/11/2011
Msg: 633
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/12/2011 8:28:25 PM
balderdog~

"When Republicans in Congress, Fox News and Rush Limbaugh talk about the wealthy being the "Job Creators," they are simply lying to you."

80% of all millionaire in the USA are self made, and they are typically small business owners in some capacity. yes, it is small business that creates the most jobs in the US. in essence, the above mentioned individuals/entities aren't "lying." being a rational logical person i'll refrain from calling you a liar - since being incorrect does not make one a liar - and will instead extend to you the courtesy of noting that you are simply ill informed.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 634
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Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/12/2011 8:33:29 PM

but isn't it the big businesses that hire the most people?


Nope.

Small and medium sized businesses hire the most people. Next is those who are self-employed. The third is...um...um...EPA?...sorry, having a Rick Perry moment...

When Republicans in Congress, Fox News and Rush Limbaugh talk about the wealthy being the "Job Creators," they are simply lying to you


Everything you said is correct except the part about fox news and Rush Limbaugh. I really can't grasp the hatred of those that agree with you. It makes no logical sense.
They say the same things.... The also support the bigger businesses... So what...

This whole rich republican thing is so far from reality that it is just obscene. I can't understand why you hate your grandparents. Why do you hate your neighbors? Why do you hate people that have been able to have some level of success...? What is worse is quite a lot of the people who speak like this are themselves well off and successful. It’s a hypocrisy that I cannot understand. Bill Maher is rich, hell... Al Gore is rich; there isn't a single union leader that isn't rich. Do you see these guys lining up to donate their wealth to the government or anything... It's all a farce by rich liberals so they can connect with the lowly serfs... Every single liberal making more than 200k a year needs to donate all of their money to OWS... Once there is a massive donation by liberal media and liberal wealth to all of the things they claim rich republicans don’t do there is zero credibility.

Stand up for what you believe in. Give all money beyond what you need to live modestly in small homes with economic cars to charity.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 635
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/12/2011 8:59:55 PM
This is an argument I see all the time - I've never understood it, so I've never commented on it.

But for some reason the notion that you can be successful and want things to be better for those at the bottom is seen as hypocrisy by some on the right. I just don't get it.
 BalderDog2
Joined: 1/6/2011
Msg: 636
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/12/2011 9:30:14 PM

balderdog~

"When Republicans in Congress, Fox News and Rush Limbaugh talk about the wealthy being the "Job Creators," they are simply lying to you."

80% of all millionaire in the USA are self made, and they are typically small business owners in some capacity. yes, it is small business that creates the most jobs in the US. in essence, the above mentioned individuals/entities aren't "lying." being a rational logical person i'll refrain from calling you a liar - since being incorrect does not make one a liar - and will instead extend to you the courtesy of noting that you are simply ill informed.


A small business owner may be worth a million in accumulated assets, but they are not "The Wealthy" the Republicans in Congress, Fox News, and Rush Limbaugh, are forever referring to. Nor would I consider a person who has accumulated a million in wealth to be one of "The Wealthy." The wealthy, as implied by the topic of this thread, is the One Percent at the top. That One Percent are the people The Republicans in Congress represent and protect and are whom they speak of when they lie to you and claim them to be "The Job Creators."

But then, because it this so obvious, and being a rational and logical person as you claim, I'm sure you clearly knew that when you posted.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 637
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Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/12/2011 9:32:30 PM

But for some reason the notion that you can be successful and want things to be better for those at the bottom is seen as hypocrisy by some on the right. I just don't get it.


Come on... You’re a smart guy. You have reasonable ideas. You know exactly what was meant. It wasn't at all cryptic or convoluted.

It meant exactly what your statement implies. That somehow being liberal makes you a better person. Rich liberal is good, while rich conservative is bad. Absolute bs with no intellectual honesty and only shows how oppressive and arrogant liberalism can be. Enough to show my point...
 BalderDog2
Joined: 1/6/2011
Msg: 638
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/12/2011 9:57:20 PM

I can't understand why you hate your grandparents. Why do you hate your neighbors? Why do you hate people that have been able to have some level of success...?


What? You didn't mention envy. Usually the word envy is squeezes in there with the rest of the rhetoric.

You make an incorrect assumption. You assume I hate everyone and anyone who is successful. Not just some of them, but all of them. That is quite a stretch and nothing in my posted comments would indicate this is true; and yet you say it anyway. This is also a tactic employed by Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, and the Republicans in Congress.

I can take offense to the methods of some, or even many of the Wealthy, but that doesn't mean the offense is driven by hatred; nor does it mean I take offense to the actions of all the Wealthy, everywhere.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 639
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Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/12/2011 10:48:34 PM
If a million people assemble on the White House lawn with signs saying 'Peace Now' it doesn't mean they want to have peace only on the White House lawn.

Yet some in this thread tale this literal position in regard to the OWS movement because in one city they happen to be in that vicinity. It's as if the detractors haven't noticed the 'Occupy' movement has spread world wide, despite that many of those same detractors claim to be 'well informed'.

Some of these allegedly 'well informed' commentators propose, somewhat contradictorily since they claim not to know what the protesters actually want due to the vagueness of the message, that the protest is aiming at the 'wrong' targets. That they really should be protesting outside someone elses house.

While yet others suggest, apropos of nothing that I can see, that the protesters and all who silently support them, must hate their own grandparents, their neighbours, and 'successful' people.
Some hint that the protesters probably would like to line up all their political opponents and shoot them, then maybe bring about the Dark Ages by imposing socialism or communism on everyone.

hahahahaaa!
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 640
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History
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/12/2011 11:04:28 PM

While yet others suggest, apropos of nothing that I can see, that the protesters and all who silently support them, must hate their own grandparents, their neighbours, and 'successful' people.


Only at those that say everything is the fault of 'rich right wing'...

You, I actually like some of what you post. You don't seem to be so far over the side of the fence and might actually care if things go sideways and people start dying over this stuff.

I don't trust what happens when things fall apart. Opportunists are not only those that join in to start a riot and steal a few TV's. Just because someone is well intentioned doesn't mean they are right either.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 641
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Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/12/2011 11:58:44 PM
http://www.claremont.org/publications/crb/id.1787/article_detail.asp

The article is just an opinion piece on the book and interesting. It does conflict with the 1% being rich right wingers though... Of course the book was only published last year so maybe its not fair to think its relevant.

As for the opportunists: (its a media lovefest)
http://occupyblogosphere.wordpress.com/2011/11/04/michael-moore-on-the-rachel-maddow-show-11-3-11/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

 Arlo_Troutman
Joined: 9/26/2009
Msg: 642
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/13/2011 10:09:29 AM

(IgorFrankensteen) Arlo: I in no way said, or meant even vaguely imply that labor faces the same troubles today as the 19th c. I was directly addressing the notion expressed that "unions are no longer necessary."


If you were directly addressing the notion of (labour) unions no longer being necessary, then you could have simply said that that was incorrect, WITHOUT making the spurious comparisons that you did.


Until a truly beneficent magical being descends and places a spell on all corporations that causes their owners and directors NEVER to put profits above safety, legality, fairness, and so forth, we will need unions to provide balance.


If (and that's a big "IF") labour unions DID provide balance, that'd be one thing. But, the ideal (i.e. labour unions providing "balance"), and how it plays out in real life, are light-years apart. Don't insult everyone's intelligence and try to tell us that labour unions act with integrity.

Arlo...
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 643
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Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/13/2011 12:51:37 PM
Thanks to lying cheat for yet another excellent post. He covered enough of the things there that a couple of folks are fussing at me about, that I have no need to answer.

OWS isn't a monolithic protest movement, never has been. All accusations to the effect that "they" all believe this or that, or hate this or that, or want to overturn this or that, CAN'T be supported, because there IS no central authority guiding the protests.

SOME of what they seem to be protesting, the abuses that have been recognized among the Wall Street power players, and by too many of the financial companies, are things that I oppose too, and I just wish there was some hint that ONE of the major political parties had some interest in cleaning the messes up. Unfortunately, I see no such a hint.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 644
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Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/13/2011 1:20:03 PM
Unions DO balance corporate influence in election campaigns. This is the primary reason for the demonization of unions and the concerted effort by the Koch funded Teapublicans for trying to destroy union influence and strength.

http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php?order=A

Don't insult everone's intelligence by suggesting that Unions are anywhere near competitive in lacking morality with the corruption going on in Cororate America/Wall Street.

Recent tragedies by Massey Coal and others show the vital ongoing need for Unions to protect workers from corporate greed that kills.
 Arlo_Troutman
Joined: 9/26/2009
Msg: 645
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/13/2011 1:36:11 PM
@ Earthpuppy:

Just FYI, "Your corrupt liars and cheats are worse than *MY* corrupt liars and cheats!" is *NOT* a solid foundation for an ideology...

Arlo...
 Cdn_Iceman
Joined: 12/1/2010
Msg: 646
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/13/2011 1:48:05 PM

Recent tragedies by Massey Coal and others show the vital ongoing need for Unions to protect workers from corporate greed that kills.
woah there before you start assigning blame this actually hits home, I have a client that lost a brother in that mine diaster so its hits home .

A independent investigator said the Company Massey Coal/energy and Mine Safety and Health Administration (MSHA) were at fault for failing to act decisively at the mine even after Massey was issued over 500 citations for safety violations at the Upper Big Branch mine in 2009.

But McAteer, who served as the assistant secretary for the U.S. Labor Department's Mine Safety and Health Administration during the time President Clinton was in office blamed Massey Coal for the diaster......so I ask , who is telling the truth here?

Im curious on why the Union didn't take a stronger stance when the company was issued over 500 citations of contravening the Mine act? by the way THIS IS A EXAMPLE Of Crony capitalism at his worst, the CEO( Don Blankenship) and a few of his management team was also found sorry Accused of trying to manipulate West Virginian State Legislation ? this is common knowledge so why wasn't the Union taking a stronger stance?

I will never deny there are BAD CEO's and Bad Company running things strictly for profit and doesn't care who they hurt and I for one would love to see them taken down, punished, jailed, Stripped of their assets or taken out in the back and shot.

But not all companies and CEO's are like the Blankenship's, the Jamie Dimon,Lloyd Blankfein,Vikram Pandit,Stan O'neal, Martin Sullivan ,Carly Fiorina,Jimmy Cayne,Angelo Mozilo and My favorite whipping boy****Fuld, notice most of them are or were Wall street bankers, I included a black man ( O'neal) and a woman (Fiorina) so there isnt a bias here , bad CEO's , bad companies that basically screwed the public, tax payers, laid off numerous employees all for the sake of what?
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 647
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/13/2011 2:03:05 PM
The problem though is that if you get rid of the cops and the laws, then CEO's that don't behave like Mafia dons will either be kicked out or their companies won't be able to compete.

Look at Bhopal. These guys made informed decisions to roll the dice with the lives of tens of thousands of people. All for increasing the bottom line. I consider this to be a greater crime than anything al Qaeda has done, since it killed many times more people. But the company only took a temporary hit in their stock price.

For the most part, human beings behave morally because we're moral creatures. Corporations aren't. Without laws and cops stopping them, they will kill people for profit. The book and movie Fight Club was very controversial - but the main character's job of paying off settlements that were cheaper than fixing product flaws was never considered controversial. We all know that happens.

Jack Welch is still hailed as a corporate hero because he increased GE's stock price. But he also fiddled the books to justify closing American plants and to make himself look good. He never increased the overall profit of the company. He threw people out of work; didn't make one extra dollar for the company; he's seen as worthy of emulation.
 Home_for_30
Joined: 2/6/2010
Msg: 648
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/13/2011 7:51:28 PM
Aries..I have to agree with you a bit. My liberal friends make those 'rich right wing' comments all the time. I am center of the road...but somewhat more socially liberial them most of my co-workers. I make very good money and pay my fair share of taxes. If the tax code allows me a break, I take it. But I don't cut corners. However, on the other side I do know of many liberals minded people that are going beyond just saying pay your fair share, they want to almost punish the wealthy for making that much money. And if you bring up almost any wealthy liberal and ask why don't they lead the charge by donating a nice fat check to the IRS...they lose their mind. I know I am talking in general terms here. It's far too much LEFT WING vs RIGHT WING B.S. going on to make any real changes. I see things in a more simple way. EVERYONE, all citizens and business pay your fair share of taxes (I support a flat tax)...and if you take a loan, be it a bail out (which I am against every happening, but too late now), student loan, home loan, mortage, car loan, credit...whatever...YOU PAY IT BACK! Take some personal responsiblity for your life and debt before worrying about others.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 649
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Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/14/2011 4:35:40 AM
Iceman..
The Massey crime scene was the result of many factors, not the least of which was the union busting of recent decades. The UMW remains in W. VA. as a token entity and has very little power. W. VA. operates in many ways like a banana republic. Miners are turned against miners, miners are turned against communities that are tired of the terrorism of big coal, and the regulators, law enforcement, and politicians are tidily in the pocket of corporate interests there. Look at W. VA as the future of the US should the Koch funded union busting and deregulation scramble prevail. If corporations are people, why have there been no criminals like Blankenship put on trial for multiple homicides, convicted and executed for their crimes? They get to be "people" when they buy government influence, but not "people" when held accountable for criminal activities. None of us real people could get by with this double standard.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/apr2010/mass-a07.shtml

I know quite a few folks from the coal fields, know their stories of death threats, daily terrorism from the clouds of toxic dust, poisoned wells, lack of government response, etc. They were pretty piffed recently when industry lawyers, responding to reports of increased cancer rates in coal communities, tried to lay the blame on "inbreeding".

Using the same financial power, corporate "persons" largely avoid paying their fair share of taxes. Some of these "people" pay no taxes at all or even get paid by us to be in business.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/03/us-usa-tax-corporate-idUSTRE7A261C20111103
 Cdn_Iceman
Joined: 12/1/2010
Msg: 650
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/14/2011 4:51:54 AM

Using the same financial power, corporate "persons" largely avoid paying their fair share of taxes. Some of these "people" pay no taxes at all or even get paid by us to be in business.
That is not entirely true Earth Puppy, that story doesn't tell you the whole truth, while many of these companies do not pay " income tax" on their profits overseas, they do pay a licensing fee to the I.R.S which is a hell of a lot lower around 10-12% then the current tax rate through a system called " double Irish tax strategy" A tax loop hole that the I.R.S knows about and for what ever reason are powerless to stop it but they are still collecting money from these corporation but not by what you would consider " fair share"

Many Large companies use this strategy including many Californian companies which might explain why or partially why California is bankrupt , That state has the highest amount of companies not paying Federal income tax

Is it a fair system ? no but that is what happens when you have accountants and tax lawyers on your payroll and they know how to get around the system.
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