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 Cdn_Iceman
Joined: 12/1/2010
Msg: 776
Occupy Wall StreetPage 32 of 53    (13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53)

That is a lie. If you want to make it true, you have to take out the "foster irresponsible borrowing and lending by purchasing mortgage loans from lenders" part.
So now Im lying ? I see .... Igor do you know what a sub prime mortgage is? and how it works?


Entirely unrelated quote: Barney Frank, talking about SUBSIDIZING housing, but making no mention of FORCING LENDERS TO GIVE OUT LARGE LOANS AGAINST OVER_PRICED PROPERTIES.

None of the other stuff contains anything but unsubstantiated allegations. No laws quoted, no administrative directives that included the instructions to over-price things, etc.
Do you know why Freddie and Fannie existed?

But I can share with you the acts from the genises in Congress that led to this mess, its all there in the congressional record , certainly you dont want me to print it for you to read? or do you?

Remember this genius Phil Gramm? As chairman of the Senate Banking Committee from 1995 through 2000, Gramm was Washington's most prominent and outspoken champion of financial deregulation. He played a leading role in writing and pushing through Congress the 1999 repeal of the Depression-era Glass-Steagall Act, which separated commercial banks from Wall Street and If you didn't know He also inserted a key provision into the" 2000 Commodity Futures Modernization Act" that exempted over-the-counter derivatives like credit-default swaps from regulation by the Commodity Futures Trading Commission, remember those pesky Credit-default swaps that took down AIG, which has cost the U.S. $150 billion and counting ?

Ive often said homeowners as well as mortgage lenders, borrowers and consumers as well as Wall Street bankers, political leaders of both parties as well as corporations' chief executives, not just a lamentably dozy Securities and Exchange Commission but reckless government-supported mortgage agencies (Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae); Federal Reserve Bank; and the commercial rating agencies share the blame ,Americans for the most part which seems to fall under the 99% by default, was complicit. For at least a generation, U.S. consumers overspent and under saved, while simultaneously accumulating large personal debts. They purchased homes they couldn't pay for with mortgages they couldn't afford

I asked before on other threads regarding this, who put the gun to the heads of these borrowers?


They re not, because it isn't true. It's an attempt to cover up the facts, and rewrite history to show that the people who CAUSED the problems, were actually the heroes.
Don't put words in my mouth Igor, these people are not my heroes , but Ive asked you a thousand times why do you and others put the blame squarely on corporations that 1) follow the rules for the most part and 2) has fancy lawyers that helps them get around regulations .

Did you ever read the 2000 pages of the financial reform under Dodd/Frank? Ive asked you to read some of the congressional records which Ive quoted a few times from there yet you insist Im full of shit and lying? prove to me that Im lying then.
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 777
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/24/2011 1:58:22 PM
Ahhh, full from dinner, while the others nap, I just stopped back, to see what mischief you guys had gotten into..as usual I think I can help! Simple answer Igor you both were right and somewhat wrong.

Fannie was created after the depression to get the mortgage biz going again, in the 30's, it had restrictions on size and you had to meet certain criteria to qualify. Freddie was created later, so as not to create a monopoly.

In the 60's to get the massive amount of debt off the books of the federal gov't, LBJ allowed the government to make them public corporations (fannie in 68, freddie I think in the late 70's, early 80's if memory serves.

Still there bread and butter was small loans, and they bought almost all from banks.

Along comes the MBO/CDO creation, and now investment banks were buying most of the loans, therebly eating fannie and freddies lunch. Don't forget their were mortgage brokers out there with small pools of money, writing loans, selling to banks, who sold to investment banks in large traunches called MBO's (mortgage backed obligations)

So what happens next is an american tradgedy, instead of accepting a smaller piece of the pie and sticking to their knitting, fannie and freddie belly up to the roulette wheel and gamble themselves. Going into the secondary mortgage market to compete with investment banks to buy MBOs.

The big difference was the investment bankers were slicing the large tranches of MBO's into smaller CDO's (collateralized debt obligations) and selling them off, unlike freddie and fannie who held them. While they were independent public corporations, they were backed by the full force and credit of the US government.

Hope that helped, be back later after dessert and drinks.
 Cdn_Iceman
Joined: 12/1/2010
Msg: 778
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/24/2011 3:08:41 PM
Happy thanksgiving to all my American friends ,Oyvay, I have to correct you on something there my friend, Fannie was created by the new deal ( Roosevelt's baby) to get the housing market going yes, But Johnson in 68 didnt do it get the debt of the govt bank sheet he did it to further broaden the capital base available for mortgages , just like what you see today

Congress separated Fannie Mae into two entities:
A)Fannie Mae, which purchases “conventional” mortgages
B)Ginnie Mae(The Government National Mortgage Association)kind of high ratio Government backed mortgage/security similar to CMHC in Canada( Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation)

Ginnie Mae securities are the only mortgage-backed securities that are backed by the full credit guaranty of the Federal Govt.

As you know Ginnie Mae is a wholly owned government corporation, Fannie and Freddie are "government-sponsored enterprises" (GSEs), which are federally chartered corporations, but still privately owned by shareholders, well not anymore the poor saps that got wiped out when the government took over .



Along comes the MBO/CDO creation, and now investment banks were buying most of the loans, therebly eating fannie and freddies lunch. Don't forget their were mortgage brokers out there with small pools of money, writing loans, selling to banks, who sold to investment banks in large traunches called MBO's (mortgage backed obligations)
yes and no I agree and disagree

My opinion is They( the institutions) shifted toward riskier mortgages and private label MBS distribution because they were making a killing on the fees ,people financing at record pace because of the artificially low interest rates.

There profits depended on volumes, and expanding the borrower pool by using lower underwriting standards and new products that the GSEs would not at first securitize. then shifting away from GSE securitization to private-label securitization (PLS) also corresponded with a shift in mortgage product type, from traditional, amortizing.

And this may answer what Igor asked me earlier about proof, FIRREA(The Financial Institutions Reform, Recovery, and Enforcement Act of 1989 )gave both Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae additional responsibility to support mortgages for low- and moderate-income families
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 779
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/24/2011 5:23:15 PM
Correct away cdn, I thought my limited(done w/o research and from memory) covered most of the questions. The "key" at any rate, was fannie and freddie's willingness to enter the secondary market, one frought with peril, to compete with the investment banks.

The peril came in the form of no-doc's( no-document mortgages), where they never asked for you to prove income or assets. This is the financial equivalent to blind folding you while you hold a stick of dynamite, lighting the fuse and telling you to get rid of it, when you think the time is right!

Had Fannie and freddie stuck to the old game plan, of first time buyers, a prudent down payment (usually 20% maybe down to 15%) on homes up to 105K, they well might have weathered the storm with much less damage.

The change in structure in 1999, increased the risk fannie and freddie assumed by an unbelievable factor.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 780
view profile
History
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/24/2011 5:27:15 PM
Thanks, Ice, for confirming that it was NOT the Democrats who screwed the pooch on this one, it was indeed the GOP. FIRREA did indeed do a lot of damage, reducing regulations on loans. Even though it didn't FORCE lenders to lend, it made it possible. It was a part of the GOP push to fix things, based on their blind allegiance to the idea that "deregulation fixes everything."

It was pushed, and signed into law by President Bush, in 1989.

And yes, I DO know what a subprime mortgage is.
Yes, I know why Freddie and Fannie were created. What you said that was a lie, is that they were created with the intention of fostering irresponsible borrowing and lending.
 Home_for_30
Joined: 2/6/2010
Msg: 781
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/24/2011 6:18:20 PM
WOW..a whole lot of talking about lending institutions, rates...government involvement...yada yada yada. I am FAR from an economical expert...but have pretty good common sense and know what I see. I have friends, family and co-workers that bought homes or several homes (to flip) when banks were pretty much giving away mortages. This was great for some, especially those that got in very early. But as more sold, prices rocketed...upping the size of the mortages required. I know several people personally that made about $40k a year yet were given a mortage for over $200k!!!! Now...it depends on your mindset on who is to fault. The banks for offering the loan, knowing very well that the lendee will default sometime down the road if they do not increase their finacial situation. (Better job, ect) And I am sure with the tricky way it was handled, the banks had some way still making money. OR....the person taking the loan. Anyone with common sense should know what they make vs cost of living. And please don't say that the monthly payment were hidden, You have to sign about 14 pieces of paper...and get a payment book at the very least. They might have been 'sold' the American Dream...but they weren't forced to buy it.
I am not talking about those that could afford their homes and due to the downward spiral of the ecomony got caught up in it. I thought we were talking about the irresponsible borrowing and lending...from BOTH sides!
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 782
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/24/2011 6:34:44 PM
The stupid mortgages were issued because the big investment banks were buying them up, bundling them and selling them off. There was a demand for the mortgages held by people who couldn't pay them. So the mortgage companies went looking for stupid people - Hell, they advertised like crazy. I heard Countrywide ads and I live in Canada.

Anyway, there are lots of stupid people. They got flim flammed, then Solomon Brothers and Bears & Stearns et al bundled these things up, sliced them up and paid the credit rating agencies to give them a triple A rating. The investors thought they were buying solid securities - triple A bonds sold by reputable institutions.

Without the investment banks, the mortgage crisis never would have happened. If they couldn't sell on the mortgages, the lending institutions would never have issued them. If the demand wasn't so great from the investment banks, the really shady brokers wouldn't have existed.
 Cdn_Iceman
Joined: 12/1/2010
Msg: 783
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/24/2011 6:37:05 PM
Exactly Oyvay, cant disagree with you there my friend, no arguments there



What you said that was a lie, is that they were created with the intention of fostering irresponsible borrowing and lending.
Okay poor choice of words on my part, I forget Im not a wordsmith like yourself and have a dictionary for a brain like yourself, what I should of said was it opened up the door to riskier lending practices because they knew if they failed the government would be there to back them up, is that better?


The stupid mortgages were issued because the big investment banks were buying them up, bundling them and selling them off. There was a demand for the mortgages held by people who couldn't pay them. So the mortgage companies went looking for stupid people - Hell, they advertised like crazy. I heard Countrywide ads and I live in Canada.
Funny thing is I used to see those silly commercial in my part of the country along with Di Tech, One thing I can say positive about the Canadian Government they wouldn't allow our institutions to set up special entities to sell off mortgages or allow our banks to leverage over 20 times.


 U make it entertaining
Joined: 7/17/2009
Msg: 784
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/24/2011 6:42:23 PM
Thanks for the great explanations Ice.
It's like sitting in Economics class.



 timetogo3223
Joined: 9/29/2011
Msg: 785
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/24/2011 6:42:53 PM
half....



Without the investment banks, the mortgage crisis never would have happened. If they couldn't sell on the mortgages, the lending institutions would never have issued them. If the demand wasn't so great from the investment banks, the really shady brokers wouldn't have existed.


Without the US federal government pressure on retail banks to lend to people who could not afford housing, in the name of "fairness", and punishment by law, the mortgage crisis would not have happened. You can dress it up any which way you like, but the politics of Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton, especially, are to blame.

I know, I know. It's not those sainted Lib-Progs, it's the evil banks. The Big, Bad, Evil Banks that made this happen. These banks were determined to make loans that made no sense just to keep the accountants and bookkeepers on their toes.

Evil, damned banks. Let Obama be the banker. He has the stash.
 Home_for_30
Joined: 2/6/2010
Msg: 786
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/24/2011 7:12:26 PM

Anyway, there are lots of stupid people. They got flim flammed, then Solomon Brothers and Bears & Stearns et al bundled these things up, sliced them up and paid the credit rating agencies to give them a triple A rating. The investors thought they were buying solid securities - triple A bonds sold by reputable institutions.


Yes there are stupid people out there...but no one FORCE then to take the mortage. The point I was trying to make it that if you look follow the back...in the end you still get Mr and Mrs IM Renting that can not afford a house, gets told they can...for the next 5 years or so...then the payments go up. Oh and now you own a home so you have to get funriture and all the other nick nacks that go with it.

I agree that the banks hand a dirty hand in this too. Overall I believe the government should never be involved in banking, it's not their role. Atleast not in capitalism. The ugly truth is that banks and companies in general will only do what makes them money. You sell a crappy product and you might sell a few to 'stupid' people, but in the end the company will fail.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 787
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/24/2011 7:25:03 PM

Without the US federal government pressure on retail banks to lend to people who could not afford housing, in the name of "fairness", and punishment by law, the mortgage crisis would not have happened. You can dress it up any which way you like, but the politics of Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton, especially, are to blame.

That's a bald faced lie.

Mortgages issued under Carter would have been paid off by the time the crisis hit. The demand to issue mortgages was caused entirely - yes entirely - by the investment banks who bought them.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 788
view profile
History
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/24/2011 9:30:44 PM
Yes... let's give them more money. They are not stealing at all. They will do a wonderful job providing for your family especially on days like today. Maybe the govt will provide a Christmas Goose too.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2010-05-17-editorial17_ST_N.htm

To be sure, lawmakers are entitled to invest in the broad U.S. economy. But few rules govern their stock trading. Members of Congress can't be prosecuted under insider-trading laws because they hold no duty to keep company secrets. Statistical studies by academic researchers have found that lawmakers consistently beat the market.


Members of Congress can't be prosecuted under insider-trading laws . Above the law much? The ruling class. It's not the corporations. They are just feeding the ruling class.

Such a big surprise that it never came to a vote
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-682

H.R. 682: Stop Trading on Congressional Knowledge Act

111th Congress: 2009-2010

To prohibit securities and commodities trading based on nonpublic information relating to Congress, and to require additional reporting by Members and employees of Congress of securities transaction, and for other purposes.

Sponsor: Rep. Brian Baird [D-WA3]

This bill never became law. This bill was proposed in a previous session of Congress. Sessions of Congress last two years, and at the end of each session all proposed bills and resolutions that haven't passed are cleared from the books. Members often reintroduce bills that did not come up for debate under a new number in the next session.
 timetogo3223
Joined: 9/29/2011
Msg: 789
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/25/2011 5:47:44 AM
halfa....



That's a bald faced lie.

Mortgages issued under Carter would have been paid off by the time the crisis hit. The demand to issue mortgages was caused entirely - yes entirely - by the investment banks who bought them.


Must be getting very cold up there, ole half, eh? Take off those funny reading glasses, scrape off the frost....that's it. Now put them back on. (Do you wear them with those cool chains) and READ what I wrote. I said it was the POLITICS of Jimmy Carter Obama and Bill Clinton that are responsible, not the actual notes -- from Jimmy Obama, anyway.

You can now apologize for calling me a liar. Waiting...waiting....waiting...waiting

Try getting one of those snuggely-things, as seen on TV, and wear it 24/7 and pull it up tight, even around the head. This will keep those lenses from getting fogged and misreading everything.

You Lib-Progs, so hostile. Don't you know that is the answer. Peace to you, ole half from me, the "liar".
 Home_for_30
Joined: 2/6/2010
Msg: 790
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/25/2011 6:11:44 AM

The demand to issue mortgages was caused entirely - yes entirely - by the investment banks who bought them.


So you are saying because investment banks were willing to buy the mortages sold to people that noramlly should be given a mortage due to credit history, income, ect...that solely caused the housing bubble to burst...not that people should be responsible for their own finances?
 Cdn_Iceman
Joined: 12/1/2010
Msg: 791
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/25/2011 6:23:39 AM

So you are saying because investment banks were willing to buy the mortages sold to people that noramlly should be given a mortage due to credit history, income, ect...that solely caused the housing bubble to burst...not that people should be responsible for their own finances?
stop trying to make sense home for 30, imagine the concept of people responsible of their own finances?

Its amazing isnt that those that are careless with their finances are quick to blame others, but themselves, as I said before nobody put a gun to their heads to forced them to borrow , refinance etc, but as soon as the bottom fell out those in trouble were the first ones to demand someone scalp.

The formula is quite simple if you cant afford it don't get it, blaming the institution is like blaming KFC for selling fried chicken that isnt good for you, they are the ones that bought the crap nobody forced you to eat at KFC
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 792
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/25/2011 6:42:09 AM
Hmm.

Maybe you might want to look at what I wrote.

The demand to issue mortgages was caused entirely - yes entirely - by the investment banks who bought them.

I didn't say the demand for mortgages - I said the demand to issue mortgages was caused by the investment banks eager to buy them, bundle them, slice them up and sell them.

And anyone who claims Carter caused it is in fact a bald faced liar.
 timetogo3223
Joined: 9/29/2011
Msg: 793
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/25/2011 7:07:05 AM
halfa...



Maybe you might want to look at what I wrote.

The demand to issue mortgages was caused entirely - yes entirely - by the investment banks who bought them.

I didn't say the demand for mortgages - I said the demand to issue mortgages was caused by the investment banks eager to buy them, bundle them, slice them up and sell them.

And anyone who claims Carter caused it is in fact a bald faced liar.


What's with the Man Crush on Carter up there, half?.

Carter's policies set the stage for the entire sub-prime mess with the Community Redevelopment Reinvestment Act, signed in 1977. Bill Clinton picked up on President Goober's idea. Call me a "liar" if you will. Just don't call.

You know, The Goobster is still alive an looking for some country to stick his nose into. Perhaps you can invite him up there to F-up your economy. He can bring little BO along to succeed him. BO can become a citizen of Canada if you wish. He can do it the long way or he can do it the Photoshop way.

They are both yours for the asking. Please ask. Please.
 BalderDog2
Joined: 1/6/2011
Msg: 794
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/25/2011 7:35:46 AM

You can now apologize for calling me a liar.


Why should he? You did lie. I've been reading your posts and nearly every one is a Fox News/Rush Limbaugh inspired lie.

Nothing you post has a shred of truth in it. Your objective has been to come on these boards to spread your hate and discontent. People are starting to smartened up in this country. No one is buying what you, Rush, and Fox News are peddling.
 Arlo_Troutman
Joined: 9/26/2009
Msg: 795
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/25/2011 8:00:21 AM
"Hey, guys, where would you like these deck chairs?" -- Arlo Troutman, deckhand, RMS Titanic

Arlo...
 unYOUsual
Joined: 8/11/2011
Msg: 796
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/25/2011 8:08:33 AM

Nothing you post has a shred of truth in it
Really? So there was no push by the Government to increase home ownership? IF that's the case then why pass the Community reinvestment act? You really should just read the legislation instead of relying on whatever partisan source you have been using to get your info...even wikpedia has a fairly accurate assessment ..
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 797
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/25/2011 8:46:42 AM
Let me get this straight:

Carter brought in a policy that chugged along providing help for people for 30 years, but somehow it caused the problem. Funny that it didn't cause problems in the 80's then.

Something changed. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to recognize that. Even the most cursory glance at the facts of the meltdown would provide the answer. No lender would issue the Ninja loans that were going on if they had to carry them on their own books.

But....I did violate one of my own tenants here. I don't know who I stole this from, but the maxim is to never attribute to malice what can more easily be explained by stupidity. So I apologize for calling you a liar.
 unYOUsual
Joined: 8/11/2011
Msg: 798
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/25/2011 8:53:28 AM
yep..it set the stage for future govermental intimdation in mortgage lending.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 799
view profile
History
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/25/2011 9:25:47 AM
Nothing you post has a shred of truth in it. Your objective has been to come on these boards to spread your hate and discontent.


Anyone could also apply those claims to you and not be far wrong.

It's understandable, though, that statists should rely on bitter personal attacks even more than usual. What else do they have? Their simple-minded socialist and communist notions have been badly discredited for a long time. Their great Marxist hope, the anointed one, has failed his test. Their dopey utopian fantasies are being replaced by disillusionment. And their dreams of seeing the America they loathe so much brought to its knees are fading fast.
 Welsh474
Joined: 9/13/2010
Msg: 800
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 11/25/2011 9:35:18 AM
Well, the police cleared out the Occupy site in my city early this morning. They've been camped out in a corporate owned park for 42 days. I still have no friggin idea what they were protesting or what they wanted. Whatever message there was to start with seemed to vanish.
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