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Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 976
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Ok... This is going to be a bit on the 'wacko' side of the fence.

This really disturbed me and I know that the opposing sides in this thread are very aggressive on their positions.

It's a 'relatively' long ass video and the only people that won't mind skimming through it are on this thread... so don't ****.

OWS has the base foundation that the corruption is 'capitalist' in nature. The opposition is that it is liberalism. The ‘progressive’ solution is to further advance the role of government to the benefit of the people while the conservative is to limit government to the benefit of the people.

This video shows a disturbing under lying means to an end that is the 'conservatives' worst nightmare and the progressive’s constant defensive 'that's not us' position.

So, my question is, “does this video mean anything to you?" Or should it be 'ignored'.
Joined: 2/14/2009
Msg: 977
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Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 12/2/2011 10:12:43 PM
Oy, good post there and again I agree with much of what you said. Here's something else I noticed happening in the world lately in regards OWS and public awareness of the slow screw being applied to some....

The last gubernatorial election was an awakening for some states that just elected Tea Party governors. Mich, Wisc, my state Ohio, Fla. are the notables that have had "buyers remorse" in our new Governors. Soon after electing these folks we found the first thing our Gov. wanted to do was remove state union employees bargaining rights. Never mentioned he'd do this in his campaign. I guess he figured it may lose him some votes.

After ramming this legislation through we were then faced with the prospect of firemen,teachers,police,and other state union employees having no collective bargaining rights. Basically, any thing the Gov wanted them to do would be the way it is. His way or the highway. Needless to say, the state and public sector unions banded together to fight this. Along the way we gained a lot of sympathetic support from non union PEOPLE. They realized that unions are at the forefront of advancing and bettering workplace conditions and sided with us....

We organised a petition to have this issue [issue5] put on the next ballot for a vote by the PEOPLE of Ohio. We needed 350 000 or so signatures within a 6 month period. Almost 1.5 million signatures were gathered. The issue went on the ballot in Nov. and was soundly defeated by a 60 to 40 margin or thereabouts. This was accomplished by mainly Union PEOPLE.... Organised PEOPLE that knew they were being screwed and used our democratic system to stop it..... I believe Wisc. has a similar petition to recall their Governor. Again, democracy in action and hang tough. I wish Ohio's constitution had such a provision, sigh....

This is one real life example of what can be accomplished by PEOPLE if they are organized and have a goal. I think that is why the OWS protests were broken up. I think the entities pulling the strings realised that if these folks got organised there'd be no stopping them. I do hope the OWS folks are all registered voters and cast their votes accordingly.What can't be accomplished in the streets can be attained at the ballot box.

And, the reason I Capitalised the word PEOPLE is because at the end of the day that is what really counts. And, if enough of us express our displeasure with the world as it is at the ballot box, we can effect changes.
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 978
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 12/3/2011 7:08:42 AM
semantics PK...freeways ok...

You missed the point I made pk...the cat is out of the bag...the horse is out of the's just water under the bridge.

The way of life in sunny SoCal is so engrained in the use of illegal mexican labor that it cannot be irradicated without further damage to society and the is your friends and neighbors that have made it this way...if they did not employ illegal mexican labor then there would be no reason for them to be here...yet, this is exactly what you, your friends, and neighbors have've employed the illegal aliens creating this mess...and now you want to complain about it.
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 979
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 12/3/2011 9:14:22 AM
Hey stilllookin, yeah most of that had crossed my mind.

Part of that "me" thing I was talking about, is our attention span and sacrifice, to achieve an end. Our society seems to have developed into folks with the attention span of a gnat! TV helped with, boy meets girl, boy has trouble, boy loses girl, boy gets girl back and they live happily ever after, in less than 30 minutes or less than 60 minutes.

Real life doesn't work that way, he11 I wish it did, I bet you do as well. We made some piss poor decisions as a nation in the last 18 odd years, maybe longer than that. The mortgage crisis, NAFTA, offshoring of jobs, 2 wars, unfunded spending and tax cuts by both parties and a lot more. We made a mess here.

Everyone thought the party would never end, worse nobody was ready for the size of the bill that would come at the end of that party. I think no matter who ran after "W", the democrats would win, just based on performance and the incredible size of the recession. With our 30/60 minute mentality, is it any wonder that 2 years later, after Obama's election, the herd would say "I want the pain to stop NOW!"

So they turned away from democrats, and embraced the alternative, tea party or republicans. These folks decided they had a mandate from the people. They not only embraced ideas they ran on, but believed an agenda of austerity and conservative change would right the ship, in a knee jerk reaction.

Spurred on by people like the Koch brothers, they tried to overstep the people's wants and needs. As the level of pain rose in early 2009, the main focus was jobs, it has remained so. Though these newly elected governors decided on a course of fiscal conservatism. That's the backlash they are feeling in Ohio and Wisconsin.

As you say "the PEOPLE have spoken", loudly in those states.

I'm sorry, there is no easy answer, no magic bullet, no pill to take that will fix it all by morning. Many don't remember the lost decade of the 70's, or don't want to. Jobs eroded, disinflation led to deflation. Then with the oil embargo inflation reoccured. It turned into a lost decade for jobs, corporate profits and the entire country and ended with staggering interest rates, outrageous oil prices(for the time).

I'm sorry to say, my models don't show a much better situation now. A large difference between the 2 decades is that the Viet Nam war ended early in that decade. While we got hammered by cheap steel and cars from foreign imports, we still had a much more robust manufacturing industry. Also the housing slump was much more short lived.

This time we have the perfect storm. Massive job losses, some to overseas, others to lack of consumer demand. 2 wars ongoing, and while Iraq wll end, we will not be sure of the cost, because we will maintain a presence in the area. The housing market is in chaos. First, few are being built, that hurts our construction industry, second with all the foreclosures, prices have failed to stabalize.

It will be years until we eat through the supply of homes on the market, worse if you think of the shrinking population, in terms of the baby boomers retiring and not being a force on that market.

Glum at best. But we need to start and get the ship righted. We need responsible leaders to (I'm sorry) look to America first, and the world second. When we were making it, great, support the interests of other countries and give a hand up. We can't afford that now, I'm not advocating isolationist, but more a different prioritazation of our country first and do for others again when we can.

These leaders must not only be in government, but corporations, in unions and the hearts and minds of the people themselves. If we don't pull together, we certainly will pull apart.

Just some thoughts.
Joined: 12/1/2010
Msg: 980
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 12/3/2011 11:46:50 AM

This video shows a disturbing under lying means to an end that is the 'conservatives' worst nightmare and the progressive’s constant defensive 'that's not us' position.

So, my question is, “does this video mean anything to you?" Or should it be 'ignored'.
I watched most of the video and it doesn't change my views on Politicians , they are all full of shit, as far as I'm concerned Politicians don't represent the " people" the represents the voters that contribute the most in their campaign, they represent the Lobbyist , the industries that support them and the Little gets its up the ass.

The only way the Little guy wins is to become wealthy , I remember watching the Debate between Clinton, Bush Sr, and Perot, , lots of folks thought Perot was a nut-bar, but at least he didn't cater to the corporations and special interest group.

Perot said during the 1992 presidential campaign that the North American Free Trade Agreement(NAFTA) was not a two way street and it would create a “giant sucking sound” of jobs going south to the cheap labor markets of Mexico.

Both of Perot’s opponents ( Then President George H.W. Bush and Then Arkansas Governor Bill Clinton) argued that NAFTA would create jobs in the U.S. because of business expansion.

Well Perot was right wasn't he? how is the Job front in America these days and how many jobs are flocking to Mexico? hmmmmmmmmmmmm

I like how President Obama talks tough with the Oil industry and its because they never supported his administration so its good to pick fights with them, smart strategy

2 years later and the Obama administration still cant get China to de value its currency, and From what Ive seen he's not good at standing up for American Interests in China either ,yeah they hold a lot of American debt but they ( America) should do what China is doing to American companies in China tax them the same way , that's one thing will help American jobs in America from the corporations from Asia.
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 981
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 12/3/2011 12:29:29 PM

2 years later and the Obama administration still cant get China to de value its currency

Now that's a little disingenuous. You're nearly as old as me, so you'll remember when the issue was the valuation of the Japanese Yen - and it's not to devalue its currency, but to let it rise.

Anyway, Carter's, Reagan's, and the first Bush's administrations all tried to get Japan to let their currency rise - to no effect. It took nearly 20 years of sustained effort on the part of successive administrations before they got any movement. And Japan was dependent on the US for a lot more than China is - in terms of military protection, the US was proportionately a much bigger market for Japan at the time, Japan didn't own near as much US debt.....

China is not as dependent on the US as Japan was and it took a lot more than two years to get Japan to move. It doesn't matter who wins the next election - I wouldn't be betting that the Yuan will rise any time before we retire.
Joined: 12/1/2010
Msg: 982
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 12/3/2011 1:08:30 PM
my error I meant the Yuan to rise not de value , my error I should proof read before posting, and yes you are correct , I wouldn't bet the farm on who ever wins the next American election the Yuan will NOT be rising anytime soon.

But its funny listening to the rhetoric from Washington accusing the Chinese of currency manipulation have they looked in the mirror lately?
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 983
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 12/3/2011 1:26:56 PM
Interesting points gentlemen.

Let's remember though, that Japanese currency problem was one of a number of issues that Japan refused to face. Japan was always the master at taking something, duplicating it and making it cheaper. Well they excelled at it in accounting!

I remember Japenese bankers getting off the planes in Paris and New York, going to art galleries, snapping up second rate Monet's for 500K to 1 or 2 million. Then returning to Japan and stashing 5 or 7 in the bank's vault. Then they would buy the premier painting at Sotheby's Impressionist sale and pay $75 million(not sure of the exact price but it was up there) and bring it back as well. Then value all 6 for the $75 million just paid, and carry those assets on their books at that price. Use them to borrow at the Japanese central bank window.

The same applied to the main street in Tokyo's financial district. Building on that block, for the sake of argument were valued at $1,000 a square foot. That also went on their balance sheet. It didn't take long for American and foreign companies to figure out, it was cheaper to maintain a small Tokyo office, and fly in people from Seoul for the day, for meetings.

When it all crashed, they were left with something akin to what we have today here in the USA, ghost banks. To me, when you value something, it represents what you can sell it for on the open market, NOT what you have it for on your balance sheet! 20 years later and we still have ghost banks in Japan.

As for China, that's a whole nother kettle of fish. A HUGE country and plenty of people. People starved for things for hundreds of years. Now coming into the 21st century with a bang. Producing, building and expanding it's presence in every corner of the globe.

But I think you guys are doing what everyone wants you to do. They're doing their version of a magic act, diverting your attention with the right hand while picking your pocket with the left. China is not the problem, neither is their currency. The problem is we have become all about selling paper around the world, stocks, bonds, CDO's and on and on. Wall street has sucked the air out of the room(FED), and it leaves no room for anyone else(MFG).

Gone are government programs to build shit, instead we pay farmers not to, and worry about the state of our banks more than our industry and it's ability to develop.

What is needed is NOT a bill against china's currency manipulation, better a bill against the FED and our national governments "too big to fail" policy.

Stop worrying about whether this bank or that bank is OK, start worrying about putting more manufacturing in the US. Those same junkies of credit I spoke of, are the ones running into Walmart and buying shit only made overseas. So they save $8 on a shirt and 200 americans lose their jobs when the factory shuts.

Mark my words guys, we are headed into some nasty trade wars. Then can isolationist thinking be far behind?
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 984
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 12/3/2011 9:16:23 PM

As far as all of the freeways being fixed with federal stimulation money, that too, is all mental masturbation, in that we collect more than enough in GAS TAXES to pay for that, but it gets squandered..... That is not news, but is rarely ever talked about. ALL roads should be in great condition, considering how much gas is taxed. The few jobs that those repairs created have been gone for a long time........... No help at all to the local economy.

Yep...the corner of McArthur and PCH is the only Ferrari dealership I've ever seen and there's more convertable Mercedes per mile than...well, than anywhere....more cadalliac is opulance in the obscene....not a shread of conservtion of our gas/petroleum resources...but, hey....ya'll in SoCal pay your fair share...I'm sure.

I have a man who imigrated here LEGALLY from mexico, who hires only those who have imigrated here legally, doing my lawn/garden work. He costs me about $50.00/ month more,

You are the only person in SoCal who checks the hired helps green card...god bless you for your vigilance.
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 985
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Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 12/4/2011 9:31:47 AM

Yep...the corner of McArthur and PCH is the only Ferrari dealership I've ever seen and there's more convertable Mercedes per mile than...well, than anywhere....more cadalliac is opulance in the obscene....not a shread of conservtion of our gas/petroleum resources...but, hey....ya'll in SoCal pay your fair share...I'm sure.

Btw... I was born here and have lived here my whole life. What you list above is what I have seen as 'normal' my whole life. I always found it kind of amusing when someone visiting from out of town was surprised by the amount of 'luxury' cars every few feet here.

Now, also, in my experience. Most of these people in that part of LA... Pretty much the majority of the west side, are liberal. So, that is why I see hypocrisy in liberalism. They don't give up their Mercedes, Hummers, and Escalades. They only want everyone else to.
Joined: 12/1/2010
Msg: 986
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 12/4/2011 2:41:44 PM
Well I guess the Wall street protests and other protests are over physically , looks like cities are clamping down and removing their rights to protests.....

The question now is does this movement has any future at all?
Joined: 9/1/2006
Msg: 987
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Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 12/4/2011 2:53:12 PM

The question now is does this movement has any future at all?

And did they accomplish anything...
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 988
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 12/4/2011 3:28:39 PM
I read an article by another Los Angeleno. He mentioned that there's another camp 3 blocks away from the one where they arrested everyone - except it's not a protest camp: just the homeless. The absurdity of arresting people for doing what is commonplace if it's not a political statement sort of makes the "law breaking" argument moot.

And remember that this is directly after the SEC tried and failed to get a judge to sign off on a plea agreement where those who broke the law and did real damage were going to get off without admitting any guilt whatsoever. That's sort of what the protests were all about. There's an old saying that you have freedom of speech until you need it.
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 989
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 12/4/2011 3:58:41 PM
Ya know, it never ceases to amaze me, that some cannot see a thing, even when it is in front of them! Better still the garbage some believe.

"There is a right to protest"

OK I'm with you there.

"but there is no right to break laws"

I agree with you there, I must point out however, some will not agree with this. Further it is a very long tradition in this country. Or maybe you never heard about the events at the ACTUAL tea party! Not the doofuses who sit there in silly hats with tea bags stapled to them, but the patriots who resisted a law, they considered unjust. Just like these guys did.

"and there is no right to be heard."

Not THAT'S some silly sh1t! In the next sentence you say someone can stand on a corner and preach, but protests aren't OK. So I can only conclude from that, those that don't agree with you, should be just locked up and not be heard, right?

As to halftime's question about the homeless camp a few blocks away. They are just the wretched refuse of society, not worth the effort, these guys were arch criminals, they littered, smoked pot and tried to draw attention, to things these people don't want to see or hear.

I'm sure some of the major banks, not all that far downtown from the protest site, had a major problem with being called crooks, every day. I'm sure they made their feelings known to the mayor and police.

The biggest laugh of all was the last line, and how ironic could it possibly be as well!!

"Do you really think that the occupy crowd will now pay for all the damage they did?"

Now all of you must admit that is some funny sh1t!

Based on what they were protesting, based on the feelings of the general public, based on JUSTICE alone. Let me return the favor and ask YOU a question.

Do you really think that the banks will now pay for all the damage they did?

Hey wah wah, tell me what will cost the taxpayers more? The freakin grass your b1tchin about, or the loans we made to the banks, or the lowering of property values all over the country, that their mortgage mess caused!!

You guys are really funny!
Joined: 2/14/2009
Msg: 990
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Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 12/4/2011 4:34:03 PM
Did they accomplish anything? If OWS members and their sympathizers are all registered voters we may find out what their accomplishments are in the upcoming election.
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 991
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 12/4/2011 5:55:20 PM
"except for their guy. THAT is what leads to the same people being elected over and over."

NO, that's one thing. There are plenty of other things. The parties themselves keep churning out the same xerox of "their" idea of the perfect candidate over and over. Pretty much you can take one ken or barbie from any district, be it congress or senate and stick them in another. They are walking breathing clones of each other. None of them has new sh1t, only the same spiel in a different voice and slightly different view.

Ice and I have been hammering the same thing over and over, it goes for politics as well. YOU want different politicians, who do the right thing, YOU have to get involved, be pro-active, not sit on your freakin couch like a potatoe. Does it take time? Yep! Does it take away from your leisure? YEP!! Will it make your life better, ABSOFREAKINLUTELY! You want the same, do nothing, and shut up and watch the Kardisians or American Idol or the football game or whatever sh1t these people do.

It's not enough to vote, it's not enough like this candidate or that party, you gotta be in it to win it! If we don't ask, insist and DEMAND change, all we get are more empty promises. Like that steak I talked about, the flat tax steak! They yank it out and run it under your nose every 4 years, then when the election is over, they shove it back into the box, till they need it 4 years from now.

"You seem to keep side-stepping blah blah blah"

Gawd you lost me after the first line, I just glazed over. You keep saying the same sh1t!

What the politicians wanted was the banks and mortgage people to make loans to low and middle earning families! Nobody told them to go out and create no-doc mortgages, no down payment mortgages, no income check mortgages. Please show me LITERALLY where that is in the law?????? Nobody said to let the pizza delievery boy buy a $400,000 house, show me where that is in the law?

NO that's all on the banks. In 1987 when Drexel Burnham Lambert created the CDO, for a client that was one of the failed S&L's. The journey started, as soon as the banks could (law allowing) they started to sell sh1t, to anybody with a pulse. You want to blame the government? GREAT! Blame them for not reeling them back in, but that started happening in 2004, under your buddy shrub! Do you really expect me to believe the republicants(a division of goldman sachs) were gonna tell their buddies "don't do that"?

"Nobody has a RIGHT to force others to listen to them."

Guess what, are you not trying to force me and everyone on this thread to listen to you? Am I not doing the same? I'm sorry, with my dying breath while all of you are saying this sh1t they did was OK, and those damn hippies should go home and take a bath and get a job. I'll STILL keep yammering back YOUR WRONG!!

It's called being involved and proactive, now I may be somewhat cowardly. I will send in some checks for causes I believe in. I am involved with the party to change. I will and do blog about what happened. I will try and get people stirred up and make a difference. I can't and won't break the law, much as I'd like to. I have a responsibilty to the people who work for me, the business I run and my family(daughters) to continue to do things the right way(see coward).
Joined: 12/1/2010
Msg: 992
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 12/4/2011 6:38:43 PM

They were breaking city ordinances, and were there at the stupidity of the city to begin with. Yesterday I went to LA early in the morning, and the area where they were was pitiful, and it still stank. I wouldn't be surprised if they had to remove the topsoil and start over.

There is a right to protest, but there is no right to break laws, and there is no right to be heard. You can stand on the corner and preach all you want, but no one must give you the means to protest, which is exactly what happened in LA. Do you really think that the occupy crowd will now pay for all the damage they did?

To answer your question, I would say that they will be revered by some as having changed peoples minds and having brought awarness to their cause...... The problem is that figuring out exactly what their cause was/is, will be a subject for lots of debate.
Paul , that is what I meant to say, protesting is their right, but breaking the law yeah that's a no no, so I agree.

That is a good question though, who is going to pay for clean up? I doubt it will be the protesters , so I suspect the tax payers of the great city of Los Angelos will and that is a shame.

To this day I still have no friggen clue what they were protesting about? is it the Bank of America, was it the Wall street firms that took bail out money and paid their executives huge bonuses , the Corporations, Capitalism? no one can tell me except they dislike the 1% who are well off
Joined: 2/14/2009
Msg: 993
view profile
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 12/4/2011 6:48:58 PM
Nobody has a right to force others to listen to them........

If you're being ignored, and your State Governors and legislators are making laws that the people DON'T WANT and then ram these laws through the legislation what would you do???? I can tell you what people in Ohio, Wisconsin, New Jersey, Michigan and other affected states did.

WE, the people took it upon ourselves to go to the state capitols, stand in front of the respective statehouses and raise holy hell about what was being done. I was there, in Michigan and Ohio. These demonstrations were mainly organized by Union labor because the laws enacted mainly affected us. Even now, petitions are being passed to overturn laws and recall Governors.

This, IMHO is what spawned the OWS movement. I can sympathised with OWS because my pension fund was raped by bankers, politicians, wall street...take your pick. I'm helping my kid pay for college. Or doing what I can. The spiraling cost is far outpacing the cost of living. Why?? Where the hell did all the factories and jobs go?? Some say we make too much money and have it too good. I noticed those saying this are members of that mysterious 1%. Or on Fox news, Or Limbaugh or Beck.

Hell even the radio and television is loaded with bought and paid for propaganda. The same propagandists that are buying our politicians. It's hard to point a finger in any one direction.

About all you can do is find out where the candidates for office stand and vote in the good and oust the bad. As I said in a previous post, I hope the OWS members are registered voters and that they check who funds whose campaigns....Follow the money.It'll affect their voting records .
Joined: 9/29/2011
Msg: 994
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 12/5/2011 2:42:27 AM

WE, the people took it upon ourselves to go to the state capitols, stand in front of the respective statehouses and raise holy hell about what was being done. I was there, in Michigan and Ohio

This is the problem that many have with the "rent a protester" movement. "We" the people, nada. You the unions, yes. Most of the people who are working to support the paychecks of the public union folks, as well as their pensions and health care, who make a lot less, don't have the lux of telling the boss or the one percenter they work for that they want to dally off to another state to "raise holy hell". They had to pass through the BS and crap in the streets and state houses to get to their jobs to pay for the rented protester.

Then the same unions co-op a bunch of drum bangers who are not even sure of what they are protesting, and rally with them against the Big One Percent. What about Big Unions? What about the life and revenue they suck out of a community?

The people wasting union funds and screwing around with pensions are the union leaders themselves. If the rank and file want to pretend that their leadership is sterling and is not in bed with the money wasters and fraud, and that they represent "We" the people, well, then, I guess they can justify $100 per hour to screw in a light bulb. Or get their knickers in a twist if they have to contribute more to their health and pension plans, which is still much less percentage-wise than non-union employees.

While union rent a protesters were raising holy hell, their non-union "brothers" and "sisters" were working like hell.

I expect deaf ears.

And the full wrath of the "enlightened", as well as the usual defense of the forty hour week, weekends off, and advice that it is unions that keep kids from getting knarled fingers.
Joined: 2/14/2009
Msg: 995
view profile
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 12/5/2011 6:25:38 AM
Time, in your rush to jump to conclusions you tripped over a couple of facts:

While myself and other of my union bros. and sis. were "raising holy hell" we were unemployed. So were many of the other protesters at the statehouses . I am a skilled tradesman and layoffs are common in my trade. We sympathized with the Teachers Cops and Firemen that were being silenced. We helped give them a voice. It's what we as Unionists do. We sided with them in the subsequent elections. And using our electoral system we turned the tide here in Ohio... I'd say that for every one of my non union bretheren that are against us, there are at least two who also sympathise with us. This was borne out in the last election here in Ohio. A 60 to 40 margin of defeat is sending someone a message.

At the rallies I attended the level of passion for what we were protesting was high. The people I saw there were genuinely concerned with their futures and also afraid for them. If indeed these were "rent a protesters" then I commend them on their zeal.

And yes Time. Union people are "We the people". So are you. And so are non union people. And so are the 1% of this country. If our leaders would have listened to us and bargained with us in good faith then these union protests would'nt have been necessary. And, the OWS movement might not have ever happened. But, since "our leaders" decided to heed the big money interests that got them elected we had no choice. When you put a boot on someones neck and force legislation on them that will ultimately be their demise of course they'll protest. And organise. And circulate petitions to remove the offending Governors from office. It happened in the last election. It's happening now. Those who decided to attack the middle class and unions know that unions are the last unifying force holding workers together in America. Remove them, and the working class will be in the palm of their hand.

The beauty of it is that it's being done using the system in place that made our country what it is. The electoral system. That, and standing in front of Statehouses protesting. Or, on the streets of most any town in America. Or the world.

The electoral system is still the best friend working people ever had. The 1% try to sway voters through dis-information , half truths, talking points and lies. Nothing they say ever speaks as loudly as WHAT THEY DO.. ..Showing their true colors is simply further uniting both the Unions and people like the OWS.
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 996
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 12/5/2011 8:24:06 AM
Stilllookin, you are wasting your breath with that poster, he has nothing but 'time' to make up stuff! You'll notice a dearth of facts, or very exagerated ones in most of his posts, like "$100 per hour"!

But I guess it's time to post up another factoid,for the uninformed. Not every union leader is Jimmy Hoffa, and way back when, laws were created to prevent union leaders from abusing pension plans, such as ERISA.

These rules govern the investments almost all pension plans can make. Although some obviously break them(Enron) who invested 100% of the pension in company stock, and so went belly up with the company.

Among the rules are for safety and prudence. They cannot invest in stocks that do not pay a dividend. They must 'try and seek 'yield and safety' over return.

Hence isn't it wonderful that most unions, corporations, state and municipal plans lost a considerable amount of money, purchasing CDO's promising a good yield from mortgage interest and rated AAA by the agencies and sold by the investment banks!

Now on a seperate note, no system or design works perfectly. This happened with the unions as well a while back. If we study their history we see that(as I mentioned many pages ago) that they were formed to end the 7 day work week, child labor laws(gee where have I heard about this recently) and improve safety and working conditions(gawd forbid, you should go to work and instead of a paycheck receive a death sentence, for the work your doing) like at Manhattan Shirt wast company.

Like all things, too much of a good thing, is too much! Feather-bedding, no show jobs on the docks, wages of near $20 an hour for sweeping the floor, or a contract that drives a company to near bankruptcy are things that are not good. While all of these have happened in the past, few of these exist today. That doesn't mean an unscroupulous person won't try and lead these or any folks astray again.

Now finally, to those who cannot fathom the message or what OWS accomplished. Do you really care? Of course not! The movement(even if it would help you) does not aline with your belief system, hence it's bad, no matter what it does. Truly if you were actually interested beyond the pure satisfaction of b11tching on this thread, there are literally dozens of articles, websites and petitions that are about or created by this group. You would have at least gone to read them and attempt to understand who and what they are.
Joined: 2/14/2009
Msg: 997
view profile
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 12/5/2011 10:28:48 AM
Oy, again you are spot on in your observations.Excellent factoid there... And I remember when I first started in my Union, 30 yrs. ago. There were a few guys that would game the system and take advantage of the protections the union afforded them.

Since that time it has changed greatly. In my trade, the union and the contractors we work for actually co operate. If there are problems relating to production or quality we have joint boards that address this and correct wrongs. Also, advanced and ongoing apprentice/journeyman training ensure quality in our work. We are making money and our contractors are making money too. It's working for both sides of the fence......

So, whats the beef you say?? Its the new attitude of some of the "higher ups" in this country. The attitude of "rather than negotiate with you we'll totally eradicate you. My way or the highway". And, you'd best hit that highway before it falls apart from lack of care.

Yeah, it does kind of make some folks a bit testy and distrustful being treated this way. Hence , the marching in the streets and the circulation of petitions. Hey, folks like Tea party Govs. and mega rich conglomerates started this. Unions, OWS folks are just trying to stop it before the whole country is owned lock, stock and barrel by these thieves. And, unlike folks like Time we are not just Byatching but doing something about it. People ARE starting to get it.
Joined: 12/1/2010
Msg: 998
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 12/5/2011 10:45:33 AM

Yeah, it does kind of make some folks a bit testy and distrustful being treated this way. Hence , the marching in the streets and the circulation of petitions. Hey, folks like Tea party Govs. and mega rich conglomerates started this. Unions, OWS folks are just trying to stop it before the whole country is owned lock, stock and barrel by these thieves. And, unlike folks like Mr Time we are not just Byatching but doing something about it. People ARE starting to get it.
stillooking, I'm trying to wrap my head around what you're trying to say here? What did the Rich conglomerates start? and who are the thieves?

I have to ask this, are you against the corporations making big money? people losing jobs that are becoming obsolete what?

What do you want to do strip all corporations of making money , you do know that you work for these corporations right? you buy things, commodities from these corporations that most of you seem to dislike, if you have a pension where do you think they are investing?

The bottom line is Does America want to end up as Greece? 42% of the people working for the government and the rest not paying taxes , lots of social programs there.

I really believe that the OWS are targeting the wrong group.
Joined: 10/22/2010
Msg: 999
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 12/5/2011 10:49:44 AM
A great piece writtin Macleans Magazine by : Emma Tietel

I’ve avoided writing about the Occupy movement for the following reasons: 1. Until last week I thought Warren Buffett sang Margaritaville. 2. I’m young and I have a job—a fortuitous, albeit awkward combination, as working for a major corporation isn’t exactly popular in most (drum) circles these days. In other words, it’s not the best time to be a liberal arts grad turned corporate lackey. As a result, I’ve been feeling a bit alienated from the pro-Occupy demographic you’d think would be my natural constituency, my peers. My Occupy contemporaries wear clothing made of plants and live in yurts. I just bought a coat with a genuine rabbit collar and I live in a building made of brick. One friend of mine who shall remain nameless appeared in a Toronto Star photo of the St. James Park encampment, beating a bongo drum to apparent oblivion. Another friend who doesn’t mind being named, Jen Anderson, states on her Facebook page that she believes in “energy” and that “we are creatures of the sun / no worries, no wishes / . . . the sun rises to greet us / we spin to meet the sun / There is always more than one truth.”

As disaffected as I sometimes felt from the Occupy movement, its detractors have left me even colder. Both sides have co-opted the supposedly free discourse with claims that strike me as unfounded. But, absent a side on the issue I can fervently embrace—and I suspect I’m not alone here—there are some truths I do stand by:

1. Less is more. Most people would take one good lie over multiple depressing truths. Most people are tired, busy and ignorant, and you don’t Occupy when you’re preoccupied. I love Jen Anderson, but as far as I can see, she doesn’t represent the 99 per cent. I do. Every time I read a story in the newspaper about the Canadian Occupy movement, I feel as though I just opened a book halfway through and I don’t know the plot.

I get why people are sleeping in tents in the United States, but when I see the pictures of the camp in Toronto, I’m not sure why they’re there. Should I join them? Should I watch Modern Family? I don’t know enough to know for sure. My impulse, like most middle-class 99 per centers, is to go to Indigo and pick up The Shock Doctrine or Freakonomics; like most middle-class 99 per centers, I go to Indigo and leave with The Help.

2. Communists rub me the wrong way. It may be a big jump to go from bongo banging to full-out Marxism, but there it is: in an ideological sense, I’ve never liked sharing. In a more personal way, everyone who hit on my girlfriend in university was a Marxist. Again, I don’t like sharing.

3. I like people with a sense of humour and irony, and political activists tend to be lacking in both. Humour humanizes both parties in an argument; it’s the only way to really understand your opponent. As F. Scott Fitzgerald once said, “The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function.” (Or, as Jen Anderson says, “There’s always more than one truth.”) The lack of irony is why I veered from an activist career myself. In high school, I was the Occupying type: president of the students’ council and delegate at many a leadership conference. Eventually, all the ideological affectation got to me, and I was soured by one too many unsolicited hugs. Not long ago, I was riding in a cab on my way home from a nightclub and the cab driver, who had emigrated 10 years ago from Namibia, was telling me his life story. His foreign education—he has a degree in computer science—couldn’t get him a job in Toronto, which is why he was driving a cab. At one point we passed St. James Park, which was at the height of its occupation. I asked him what he thought about the tent city, assuming he’d be sympathetic. “Looks like a bunch of bulls–t to me,” he said.

I don’t happen to think it’s a bunch of bulls–t. But the movement’s unwillingness to mobilize around one voice—or one leader—has destroyed any credibility it might have otherwise had with people like my cabbie; people whose impatience with the Occupiers springs from the fact that they are working crappy jobs. If the Occupiers truly represented people like my cabbie, they wouldn’t have had the time to Occupy at all. And refusing to get organized to spite the organizations in power is like cutting off your nose to spite your face. All it proves is that you hate your enemies more than you love your neighbours.

And that’s no way for anyone to occupy their time.

Damned good piece.

I do, however, disagree on her claim that all who had jobs would be at them, and that this would be a good thing.

If the cows to slaughter keep processing down that slaughter ramp; its not a great way to stop the cows from going to slaughter. The unions know this; which is why the walk off the job, and make the top percentage make a decision.

Just wanted to share some of the commentary from up here in the Igloo eh.

Joined: 10/22/2010
Msg: 1000
Occupy Wall Street
Posted: 12/5/2011 11:06:16 AM
In other news: (from Macleans)

income inequality
1. OECD: Canada’s income inequality well above average
Job market, tax breaks widening the gap

A labour market that rewards high-skilled workers and increasingly shifts towards temporary and part-time jobs, coupled with tax breaks for the wealthy, has widened the income gap between rich and poor to record levels in Canada, a new study by the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Developed found. Inequality in Canada is well above the organization’s 34-country average, though still considerably lower than in the United States, the Globe and Mail reports.

^ and that is communism

The Governing and their main suppliers/cronies are rich. Historically; the top military brass.....are also rich.

Everyone else is poor, which makes for easier control of the populace.

Once we get people bragging, and walking with swaggerish bravado because they have fresh vegetables; we've officially reached the point of "fawked"

<div class='quote'>Create your own employment. Stay home and work. Be productive,

I work from home now; and my production for my country and everything else is at my all-time low. The amount of dollars I am generating and creating circulation with is 100s of thousands (minimum) below my norm.

Just followin the program; like a good boy.

The program sucks
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