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 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 26
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Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?Page 2 of 3    (1, 2, 3)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20461914
(Excerpts)
Palestinian 'shot dead near border'

A Palestinian man has been shot dead by Israeli soldiers close to the Gaza border, Palestinian officials say.

It is the first reported killing since the ceasefire between Hamas and Israel came into force on Wednesday evening.

The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said it fired warning shots at a group walking towards the border fence, then fired at their legs when they did not respond.

*******************************

The shooting on Friday, east of Khan Younis, reportedly happened around the no-go area surrounding the Gaza border fence.

A man in his 20s, named as Anwar Qdeih, was killed and at least 10 other people injured, said the health ministry in Gaza.

A relative of Mr Qdeih told Reuters news agency that he had been trying to place a Hamas flag on the fence. The army fired into the air three times before he was shot in the head, the relative said.

*******************************

Israel said a group of about 300 people had approached the fence and that some had attempted to break through.

The soldiers shot at their legs after warning shots were ignored, the IDF said.

Following the incident, IDF spokeswoman Avital Leibovich tweeted: "Trying to breach Gaza fence in order to enter Israel is breaking ceasefire."

Hamas officials said the shooting was an Israeli violation of the Egyptian-brokered ceasefire.

Hamas "will raise this violation with Egyptian mediators to make sure that it does not happen again", spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri told AFP news agency.

Palestinian Foreign Minister Riad Malki also said it was "a clear violation of the agreement and should not be repeated".

*******************************

Under the truce deal, Israel has agreed to end all hostilities and targeted killings of militants, while all Palestinian factions will have to stop firing rockets into Israel and staging border attacks.

Details regarding the border region, which is regularly patrolled by the Israeli military, have yet to be worked out.

Ceasefire deal
Israel to end all hostilities on Gaza Strip by sea, land and air, including incursions and the targeting of individuals
All Palestinian factions in Gaza to stop all hostilities against Israel, including rocket and border attacks
After 24 hours from start of ceasefire, talks to begin on opening crossings into Gaza and allowing free movement of people and goods
Egypt to receive assurances from both sides that they will abide by the deal, and will follow up any reports its has been broken

*******************************

Israel has unilaterally declared a 300m-wide exclusion zone around the fence which it says is needed for security but which Palestinians say steals valuable farming land.


Gee what a surprise ... the Zionists are at it again. They unilaterally declare they are taking land from the Palestinians and forbid them from walking on it ... then also kill Palestinians for being on their own land. But all of this is nothing new to those of us who actually know Palestinians who are being hurt ... not to mention how the IDF treat Palestinian children.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/26/israeli-soldiers-mistreatment-palestinian-children
Former Israeli soldiers disclose routine mistreatment of Palestinian children

Booklet of testimonies of former Israeli soldiers describes beatings, intimidation and humiliation of children
Harriet Sherwood in Jerusalem
guardian.co.uk, Sunday 26 August 2012 05.43 EDT

Israeli veteran reflects on everyday abuse of Palestinians – video Link to this video (launch with video pse)

URL (dev site): http://www.guprod.gnl/world/video/2012/aug/25/breaking-silence-israeli-abuse-palestinians-video
Live URL: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2012/aug/25/breaking-silence-israeli-abuse-palestinians-video

More than 30 former Israeli soldiers have disclosed their experiences of the treatment of Palestinian children during military operations and arrests, pointing to a pattern of abuse.

A booklet of testimonies, published by Breaking the Silence, an organisation of former Israeli soldiers dedicated to publicising the day-to-day actions of the army in the occupied territories, contains descriptions of beatings, intimidation, humiliation, verbal abuse, night-time arrests and injury. Most of the children had been suspected of stone-throwing.

The witness statements were gathered to show the "common reality" of acts of violence by soldiers towards Palestinians, including children, in the West Bank, said Yehuda Shaul of Breaking the Silence. "Sadly enough this is the moral consequence of prolonged occupation of the Palestinian people," he said.

One former soldier describes serving in Hebron in 2010: "You never know their names, you never talk with them, they always cry, shit in their pants … There are those annoying moments when you're on an arrest mission, and there's no room in the police station, so you just take the kid back with you, blindfold him, put him in a room and wait for the police to come and pick him up in the morning. He sits there like a dog …"

Children frequently soiled themselves, according to the testimonies. "I remember hearing him shitting his pants … I also remember some other time when someone pissed in his pants. I just became so indifferent to it, I couldn't care less. I heard him do it, I witnessed his embarrassment. I also smelled it. But I didn't care," said another.

Another soldier describes an incident in Qalqiliya in 2007 in which a boy was arrested for throwing stones. "At the end of the day, something has to make these kids stop throwing stones on the road because they can kill," he said.

"That specific kid who actually lay there on the ground, begging for his life, was actually nine years old ... I mean, a kid has to beg for his life? A loaded gun is pointed at him and he has to plead for mercy? This is something that scars him for life. But I think if we hadn't entered the village at that point, then stones would be thrown the next day and perhaps the next time someone would be wounded or killed as a result."

Some of the statements illustrate the disjunction between the Israeli military and Palestinians. One soldier said: "You put up a checkpoint out of boredom, sit there for a few hours and then continue on. Once I saw kids passing, and one of the guys, a reservist who spoke Arabic, wanted to ask them what they study. He didn't mean it in any bad way. Then I saw how the kid nearly peed his pants as the guy tried to kid with him, how the two worlds are simply disconnected. The guy was kidding and the kid was scared to death."

Most of the soldiers have given testimonies anonymously. One, who spoke to the Guardian, said he had been given no guidance during his training for military service on how to deal with minors. He said children were sometimes arrested and interrogated, not because they were suspected of an offense, but to try to elicit information about older family members or neighbors.

He had given a witness statement to Breaking the Silence because "I thought that people who don't see this on an everyday basis should know what's going on." He said many Israelis were unwilling to acknowledge the reality of the military occupation in the West Bank. "It's very easy [for the Israeli public] to be completely detached. It's a hard thing to handle – stuff like that being done in your name."

According to Gerard Horton of Defence for Children International – Palestine (DCI) the testimonies confirm a pattern of behaviour uncovered by his organisation's research into the treatment of Palestinian children by the Israeli security forces.

DCI and other human rights organizations say Palestinian children are routinely arrested at night, handcuffed, blindfolded, mistreated and denied access to their parents or a lawyer.

"For years credible reports of human rights abuses against children living under Israeli military occupation have emerged," he said. "These latest testimonies from young soldiers given the task of enforcing the occupation provide further evidence of its deeply corrosive effects on all. The testimonies lay bare the day-to-day reality of the occupation. These are not isolated incidents or a question of 'a few bad apples'. This is the natural and foreseeable consequence of government policy."


According to my friends the above is true.


A spokesman for the Israeli Defence Forces said that Breaking the Silence had declined to provide the IDF with testimonies ahead of publication so they could be verified and investigated.
So they can just deny, deny, deny. Agood Zionist just would never do things like that ... right?


The IDF has in the past, and continues to, call upon the organisation to immediately convey complaints or suspicions of improper conduct to the relevant authorities. In line with the IDF's ethical commitments, any such incidents will be thoroughly investigated."
Uh huh ... ya right!!!
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 27
Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 11/23/2012 6:20:35 PM


Unfortunately, even though pro-Zionists in here are insinuating that President Obama is an anti-Semite, that apparently couldn't be further from the truth as he has been doing everything he can to supply the killer Zionists with all kinds of weapons ... including the Iron Dome system.

I'm not too clear on how the iron dome system makes them "killer Zionists." Did you have difficulty understanding the Wikipedia entry to which you provided a link?

I would say that this post is 'having difficulty' with logic and reasoning... The comment you quoted never says one word about ANY weapons system 'making them killer Zionists'...

What it DOES say, for the logically-impaired, is that it is difficult to make a rational claim of anti-semitism against Obama when his admin is helping Israel to both kill and defend... I hope this helps...

As to your repeated claims that Israel in an "oppressive" regime? Also interesting. Perhaps you are unaware that Israel offers asylum to Palestinian gays in danger of persecution or under threat of violence.

And this mitigates the murder and torture of children, along with men and women, in what way, exactly...?

You may want to recheck / reconsider some of your "facts."

That's some good advice there you may want to consider yourself... I would throw in 'logical reasoning' as well
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 28
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Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 11/24/2012 10:36:04 AM
People should start by being at least a bit truthful. Israel is occupying the Palestinian's lands.


You should follow your own advice. Israel does not occupy one square foot of Gaza, and hasn't for seven years now. In 2005, it withdrew everything and every citizen that had been there, except for the greenhouses where settlers had grown fruit and flowers for export. It left those in hopes they might help the local economy, but when the locals took over they destroyed them.


Now, I wished that the people of Gaza had better weapons and more accurate missiles so they could also attack Israeli military targets successfully enough to force them to withdraw from the occupied territories . . . the sporadic and rudimentary rockets launched by people who hate the occupiers of their lands


I'll bet you do. And repeating the falsehood that Israel is occupying Gaza doesn't make it any less false. I suspect the fact is that you hate Jews just as much as you obviously hate the United States, and that you are pulling for the Muslim jihadists who share your hatreds.


What law is there that says that people who are under occupation don't have the right to use the weapons at their disposal to fight against the occupiers.


What law is there that says a nation does not have a valid claim to territory captured in war? I don't know what you mean by "occupation," but there's nothing inherently wrong with occupying an area. For example, the U.S., Britain, France, and the USSR all occupied parts of Germany after WWII, and the U.S. also occupied Japan.


this new round of violence started now (conveniently orchestrated to help with the electoral campaign of Netanyahu) when the IDF killed a young boy who was playing soccer . . . so he ordered the killing of the Hamas military leader who was enforcing the agreement of not launching rockets into Israel or the occupied lands.


You don't offer any evidence for that sequence of events--and I'm not surprised. About 150 rockets were fired from Gaza at Israeli civilians during the first few days of this month, and Israel responded by killing al-Jabari, a military target. Your fable about the boy murdered by the vicious Jews as he played soccer and the peace-loving al-Jabari, urging calm on the outraged locals, is touching and full of pathos, like good propaganda should be.


Isn't it a little puzzling to you that Netanyahu agreed so fast to not target the Hamas leaders for assassination


No. Israel has bigger fish to fry, especially now that Mr. Obama has been re-elected and it knows it is on its own against Iran. There is a reliable report that on October 23, an Israeli air strike blew up about 200 tons of Iranian munitions in Sudan before they could reach Gaza. This would not have been anything new. There was a known route by which Iran shipped weapons to Port Sudan, where they were transferred to trucks and taken north, then across to Sinai, where local smugglers eventually moved them into Gaza through tunnels in Rafah, Egypt. And there have been other reports of Israeli airstrikes on these caravans of weapons. Since Israel intercepted the Karine A at sea years ago and seized a huge cargo of all sorts of Iranian weapons bound for Gaza, Iran has been forced to try other ways to get them there.

The most interesting thing about this strike, if the report is true, is that the assortment of aircraft makes it look like a small-scale rehearsal for a bombing attack on Iran's nuclear weapons sites. Israel apparently used eight F-15 I's, its longest-range and most capable strike aircraft. Four of these, each carrying two 2,000-lb. guided bombs, struck the target. But even though Sudan has no air force to speak of, the other four F-15's stayed nearby to cover them. In a strike on Iran, as many as half the armed planes might need to be assigned to defend the bombing aircraft from fighters or to suppress other air defenses. The group also seems to have included two search-and-rescue helicopters, a refueling plane, and one of the five Gulfstream II business jets Israel has stuffed with electronic gear and converted into airborne warning and command centers.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 29
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Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 11/24/2012 11:08:26 PM

… except for the greenhouses where settlers had grown fruit and flowers for export. It left those in hopes they might help the local economy …
Oh c’mon … are you really insinuating that the Zionists ever intended to help the people of Gaza in any way? More like they were pissed they had to give up the stolen land and did their best to dismantle the settlements prior to getting out. If I’m not mistaken, in January 2008, Tzipi Livni stated that Israel not only got out of Gaza, but it also dismantled its settlements there.

… but when the locals took over they destroyed them.
Oh really? Maybe the locals destroyed them and maybe they didn’t … eh?

Of course I can understand how a pro-(killer) Zionist might want to lead others to believe that the people of Gaza would simply go in and destroy the greenhouses. I wonder if the Jews might have destroyed or dismantled any of the greenhouses prior to their departure? No need to “wonder” … it appears in fact they did!

http://thehasbarabuster.blogspot.com/2009/12/gaza-greenhouse-effect.html

The Gaza greenhouse effect

Tuesday, December 1, 2009

Every now and then the subject of the greenhouses left behind by Israeli settlers eradicated from Gaza is brought up by Israel apologists as proof of several things. It is claimed that Gazans don't suffer from malnutrition: if they did, they wouldn't have destroyed the greenhouses when the Israelis left. Therefore, there's nothing wrong with Israel's blockade of Gaza, because it doesn't actually harm them. It is also claimed that the destruction of the greenhouses proves how hateful Gazans are: they prioritized wiping out every vestige of Jewish presence over keeping a valuable source of nutrients and income. Finally, it is asserted that a people that got the result of heavy investment and destroyed it can't be trusted ro run anything, much less a state.

Much of this is bullshit, and the part that isn't is highly distorted.

When Israel decided its unilateral withdrawal from Gaza, the settlers expected to be paid handsomely for the productive infrastructure they had created. Of course this was a display of chutzpah, because it had been heavy state subsidizing that had allowed them to create that infrastructure in the first place. As Haaretz noted:
The Gaza settlers had been inundated by perks from all directions. They received subsidized lands, subsidized water, assured wages from the public sector, "risk bonuses" and lower tax on their higher wages, subsidized daycare, cheap Arab labor, what didn't they get. The benefits they received touched on every area of their lives and they became accustomed to higher standards they can't forgo even now.

As the date of the withdrawal approached with no deal in sight, however, the settlers began to destroy the greenhouses.

The New York Times reported:
About half the greenhouses in the Israeli settlements in Gaza have already been dismantled by their owners, who have given up waiting to see if the government was going to come up with extra payment as an inducement to leave them behind, say senior officials working on the coordination of this summer's Israeli pullout from Gaza.(...)

Of the roughly 1,000 acres of agricultural land that were under greenhouses in the 21 Israeli settlements in Gaza, only 500 acres remain - creating significant doubts that the greenhouses could be handed over to the Palestinians as "a living business," the goal cited by the Israeli coordinator of the pullout, Eival Giladi.
Finally, a last-minute effort by American Jewish philantropists raised $14 million and the remainder of the greenhouses was bought and turned over to the Palestinians.

However, since there had been no coordination with the Palestinians, there was no security plan to protect the greenhouses from looters. AP reported:
Palestinians looted dozens of greenhouses on Tuesday, walking off with irrigation hoses, water pumps and plastic sheeting in a blow to fledgling efforts to reconstruct the Gaza Strip.(...)

Palestinian police stood by helplessly Tuesday as looters carted off materials from greenhouses in several settlements, and commanders complained they did not have enough manpower to protect the prized assets. In some instances, there was no security and in others, police even joined the looters, witnesses said.

“We need at least another 70 soldiers. This is just a joke,” said Taysir Haddad, one of 22 security guards assigned to Neve Dekalim, formerly the largest Jewish settlement in Gaza. “We’ve tried to stop as many people as we can, but they’re like locusts.”

As can be seen, the theft was carried out by individuals, and in no way was it encouraged by the Palestinian Authority. Quite on the contrary, there was a conscious PA effort to prevent the lootings, which was however hindered by lack of resources.

Two reflections arise from the stories above.

On the one hand, it's true that some of the greenhouses were destroyed by Palestinian individuals. There's nothing remarkable about that. Beggars can't be choosers, as the saying goes, and looting is what normally happens when two conditions are met:
1) an impoverished populace; and
2) a situation of lack of control by an established authority.

Gazans stole the hardware and materials contained in the greenhouses not in a drive to erase the Jews' memory from the territory, but to satisfy their personal needs. There was a rationale to their theft.

The destruction of part of the greenhouses by the settlers, however, can only be explained by animosity. They spent time, effort and probably even money to dismantle the facilities so that the Palestinians wouldn't be able to use them.

There's a big difference between he who damages property in order to derive a benefit and he who damages it ONLY to harm another person.

Many other related points could be made. For instance, that even in the Zionists' twisted logic the looting of the facilities would justify the ban on vegetable imports into Gaza, but not that on livestock (cows can't be raised in greenhouses). Or that the 350 Arab villages that disappeared from Israel's map were not looted by vandals; they were razed by the State in a clear drive to eliminate any trace of Arabness from their respective landscapes.

But without getting into those intricacies, and just focusing on the destruction of the greenhouses by both Jews and Palestinians, it's clear who was moved by necessity and who by hate.


The above is just one example of how the poster in Msg. 36 spews hatred for anything Muslim … imagine what other distortions he spews.

The time is coming (hopefully still in my lifetime) that the Zionists will have to deal with the atrocities they have done.

It occurs to me that most haven't even given this any thought as to how the current issue all really started! All they seem to care to know is that the "poor defenseless Jews" (Zionist Israel) were getting fired upon ... AGAIN. The news media doesn't seem to care that a boy was killed indiscriminately and the man who had been keeping the peace (you know, that horrible "Hamas terrorist") was assassinated by the peaceful Zionists.

I really have to wonder why we'd ever support something like that. Does it ever occur to anyone (besides me) that by being so supportive of the Zionists, we might as well be sitting there pulling the trigger on the Palestinians, sitting in the bulldozers the Zionists use to mow down the Palestinian homes (often with the residents still inside), we might as well be sitting at the border crossing delaying the ambulances until the Palestinians inside die.

Seems like no matter what awful deeds the Zionists commit, we still just keep turning a blind eye and supplying them with all the support they can handle ... weapons, munitions for resale to other governments, Iron Dome, cash.

I wonder how many really take note of what has been going on ... all these years ... over 64 years (hmmm ... longer than I have been alive).

I don't have to wonder how I would respond if someone were doing the same to my loved ones.
I don't have to wonder how I would respond if my loved ones were in their home as the Zionists just go in and bulldoze it.
I don't have to wonder how I would respond if an IDF soldier beat my child to a pulp ... for no good reason.
I don't have to wonder how I would respond if my 12-year old child was gunned down for playing soccer on his own land.

I exchange emails with people who have actually been there, have lived it, and have often told me about such atrocities. Then I found some very valid articles that lend truth to what I have suspected all along. A while back I found articles about IDF soldiers who would rather go to jail than serve in the Occupied Territories.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ga0s936ldU

The following article tells of what IDF soldiers do on a daily basis ...

www.mintpress.net/israeli-soldiers-break-silence-about-occupied-territories/
Israeli Soldiers Break Silence About Occupied Territories
August 31, 2012 • Stephen Lendman

Breaking the Silence (BTS) is an organization comprised of Israeli combat veterans. They served since the start of the second Intifada. They refuse any longer to stay silent.

Their testimonies expose “the reality of everyday life in the Occupied Territories.” Their purpose is to stimulate public debate. They revealed abuses too gruesome to hide.

They include “looting and destruction of property.” Many other crimes and abuses are much worse. In their own words, they reveal the deplorable immorality of Israel’s militarized occupation.

Most Israelis ignore it. They turn a blind eye to what’s done in their name. “In order to become civilians again, soldiers are (also) forced to ignore what they have seen and done.”

Breaking the Silence members have been revealing disturbing truths for years. A previous article discussed them, saying, ”We, reserve officers and soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) … have always served in the front lines” (We) were first to carry out any mission, light or heavy, (and we did it) to protect the State of Israel and strengthen it.”

“We … served … long weeks every year, in spite of dear cost to our personal lives, have been on reserve duty all over the Occupied Territories and were issued commands and directives that had nothing to do with the security of our country (but were only given to perpetuate) our control over the Palestinian people.”

“We(‘ve) … seen the bloody toll this Occupation exacts from both sides.”

“The commands issued to us in the Territories (have) destroy(ed) all the values (we learned) growing up in this country.”

“The (way) the Occupation (undermines the) IDF’s human character and (exposes) the corruption of the entire Israeli society.”

“We … know that the Territories are not Israel, and that all settlements are bound to be evacuated in the end.”

“We hereby declare that we shall not continue to fight this War of the Settlements.”

“We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people.”

“We hereby declare that we shall continue serving the Israel Defense Forces in any mission that serves Israel’s defense.”

“The missions of occupation and oppression do not serve this purpose – and we shall take no part in them.”


Women soldiers also speak out. Their testimonies match their male counterparts. They condemn the corrupt state of Israel’s military. They want no further part of horrific crimes committed in their name.

To date, Breaking the Silence collected over 700 testimonies. Their testimonies match their male counterparts. They condemn the corrupt state of Israel’s military. They want no further part of horrific crimes committed in their name.

To date, Breaking the Silence collected over 700 testimonies. Soldiers from all segments of Israeli society supplied them. They’re frank, bold, revealing and courageous. Those published were “meticulously researched” for accuracy. Facts are cross-checked with additional eyewitness evidence, as well as archival material from human rights organizations.

Most soldiers remain anonymous for their own safety. They’re concerned about IDF recrimination and societal pressures they’ll face otherwise. Israel doesn’t take criticism lightly.

It wants no one obstructing or denigrating military or government policies. Doing so can be hazardous. Being Jewish doesn’t grant immunity. Soldiers bearing witness to horrific crimes have special concerns. They have smoking gun proof of Israeli lawlessness.

Israeli treatment of Palestinians
Their testimonies are damning. They reveal the real Israe. They destroy the myth of a free, open and equitable democratic state. Throughout its history, ruthlessness defines policy.

Militarism is a way of life. Arabs are considered lesser beings. Occupied Palestinians are persecuted for not being Jewish.

Edward Said explained it powerfully. His books, articles and outspokenness bear witness to decades of horrific treatment.

He described “Sharonian evil.” Among other crimes, he massacred children. He turned Palestine into an isolated prison. He used tanks and F-16s against civilians.

He, his predecessors and successors committed virtually every imaginable atrocity. Netanyahu exceeds his extremism. He, Barak and like-minded hardliners represent consummate evil.

Palestinians are persecuted and oppressed for their faith, ethnicity and presence. An endless cycle of violence, deprivation and degradation targets them. In Gaza, slow-motion genocide is policy.

In the West Bank and East Jerusalem, Israeli soldiers operate like storm troopers. Hitler had a Jewish problem. Israel has a Palestinian one. They can’t get rid of them, so they’re brutalized mercilessly.

Breaking the Silence soldiers want shocking truths revealed. Everyone has a right to know. Israelis need to know what type society they live in. Change depends on exposing it to the light of day.

U.S. media (scoundrels) suppress it. So do European ones most often. Exceptions are rare. They prove the rule. London Guardian writer Harriet Sherwood headlined, “Former Israeli soldiers disclose routing mistreatment of Palestinian children,” saying Breaking the Silence members described “beatings, intimidation, humiliation, verbal abuse, night-time arrests and injury.”

Children most often face stone-throwing charges. Usually they did nothing. At most they caused no harm. They can face prison and torture either way. They’re horrifically treated like adults. Sherwood gave graphic examples of soldier testimonies.

So did London Independent writer Donald MacIntyre. He headlined, “Israel breaks silence over army abuses,” saying that as a teenager, “Hafez Rajabi was marked for life by his encounter with” Israeli soldiers. His scars bear testimony to their abuse. They terrorized and brutalized him. He was “certain that he was going to” be killed.

He’s one of countless thousands. One boy was “beat(en) to a pulp.” So were others. In custody they’re tortured to confess even if innocent. British lawyers accused Israel of “serial breaches of international law in its military’s handling of children in custody.”

Kids young as 10 or younger are traumatized. Some never recover. Most are entirely innocent. Being Palestinian puts them at risk. Soldiers get habituated to violence. Commanders order it.

Dehumanization, brutalization, humiliation and harassment are commonplace Unaccountability is policy. Institutionalized cruelty goes unnoticed. So does murder and virtually every other type abuse.

Sunshine is the best disinfectant. Breaking the Silence soldiers took full advantage. Others are encouraged to join them. Below are examples of what they said. Multiply each one by thousands if all soldiers spoke freely.

Soldier testimonies
Growing up in Palestine means living with threatened state terror. Few kids escape it directly or indirectly. They face it growing up and as adults. Militarized occupation assures it.

A Hebron-based soldier said, ”You never know their names, you never talk with them, they always cry, shit in their pants … There are those annoying moments when you’re on an arrest mission, and there’s no room in the police station, so you just take the kid back with you, blindfold him, put him in a room and wait for the police to come and pick him up in the morning. He sits there like a dog …”

According to another soldier:
One kid lay on the ground “begging for his life. (He) was actually nine years old, I mean, a kid has to beg for his life? A loaded gun is pointed at him and he has to plead for mercy? This is something that scars him for life. But I think if we hadn’t entered the village at that point, then stones would be thrown the next day and perhaps the next time someone would be wounded or killed as a result.”

Another:
“We were sort of indifferent. It becomes a kind of habit. Patrols with beatings happened on a daily basis. We were really going at it. It was enough for you to give us a look that we didn’t like, straight in the eye and you’d be hit on the spot. We got to such a state and were so sick of being there.”

Another:
“The commander said to (her): ‘Keep away!’ Came close, cocked his gun. She got scared. (He shouted): ‘Anyone gets close, I kill him. Don’t annoy me. I’ll kill him. I have no mercy.’ He was really on the edge. Obviously (the boy) had been beaten up. Anyway, he told them: ‘Get the hell out of here!’ and all hell broke loose. His nose was bleeding. He had really been beaten to a pulp.”

Another:
“We’d often provoke riots (in Hebron). We’d be on patrol, walking in the village, bored, so we’d trash shops, find a detonator, beat someone to a pulp, you know how it is. Search, mess it all up. Say we’d want a riot? We’d go up to the windows of a mosque, smash the panes, throw in a stun grenade, make a big boom, then we’d get a riot.”

“Every time we’d catch Arab kids. You catch him, push the gun against his body. He can’t make a move – he’s totally petrified. He only goes: ‘No, no, army.’ You can tell he’s petrified. He sees you’re mad, that you couldn’t care less about him and you’re hitting him really hard the whole time.”

“And all those stones flying around. You grab him like this, you see? We were mean, really. Only later did I begin to think about these things, that we’d lost all sense of mercy.”

Over 700 other testimonies read like these. If made public, thousands of others could replicate them. These are serious, unprovoked crimes. Prosecutions rarely happen. Punishments are no more than wrist slaps. Commanders have total absolution.

Israeli rule of law says Palestinians don’t matter. They’re kicked around like rag dolls. Stray dogs wouldn’t be treated as abusively. Israeli soldiers have virtual carte blanche to do what they please.

Impunity protects them. Commanders order them to be tougher. So do extremist rabbis. Breaking the Silence soldiers bear witness to Israel’s dark side. It’s the only side Palestinians endure daily.

***********************************************
Many refuse to believe that IDF soldiers would ever refuse to dole out such treatment (mostly because they refuse to believe such treatment ever occurs) ... but the following is proof many have signed up to refuse to take no part in the occupation and the oppression.

The following site shows the declaration and all of the signers … all 550 of them.

www.seruv.org.il/defaultEng.asp

It appears they serve on all levels:
1 Warrant Officer, 15 Corporals, 2 Privates, 3 Private 1st Class, 40 Sergeants, 279 Staff Sergeants, 56 Sergeant 1st Class, 3 First Sergeants, 86 Lieutenants, 46 Captains, 19 Majors

www.spectacle.org/0302/refuse.html
Declaration of Israeli Reservists ... A Refusal to Serve in the West Bank and Gaza

We, reserve combat officers and soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces, who were raised upon the principles of Zionism, sacrifice and giving to the people of Israel and to the State of Israel, who have always served in the front lines, and who were the first to carry out any mission, light or heavy, in order to protect the State of Israel and strengthen it.

We, combat officers and soldiers who have served the State of Israel for long weeks every year, in spite of the dear cost to our personal lives, have been on reserve duty all over the Occupied Territories, and were issued commands and directives that had nothing to do with the security of our country, and that had the sole purpose of perpetuating our control over the Palestinian people. We, whose eyes have seen the bloody toll this Occupation exacts from both sides.

We, who sensed how the commands issued to us in the Territories, destroy all the values we had absorbed while growing up in this country.

We, who understand now that the price of Occupation is the loss of IDF’s human character and the corruption of the entire Israeli society.

We, who know that the Territories are not Israel, and that all settlements are bound to be evacuated in the end.

We hereby declare that we shall not continue to fight this War of the Settlements.
We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people.

We hereby declare that we shall continue serving in the Israel Defense Forces in any mission that serves Israel’s defense.

The missions of occupation and oppression do not serve this purpose-- and we shall take no part in them.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 30
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Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 11/26/2012 3:22:52 PM

... inflamatory language, accusations of lying and moving of goalposts make it impossible to engage in any real dialogue ...
While it's clear to me that " Imported_labor" is perfectly capable of defending anything he writes in these forums, it's also important to point out that at least he has grounds for the sensible statements he makes.

What does not have grounds (ie can't hold water) are the statements that the Israeli Zionists are handling the situation with the Palestinians in any way shape or form ... fairly. What we really don't need in here are Zionist defenders especially when it is clear that there is just way too much information available (to those who place any value on the truth) that says otherwise ... just as I pointed out the many IDF personnel who refuse to follow through with the despicable Zionist behavior that is expected from them.

What is also despicable is that our country is supporting it. That makes me physically ill.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 31
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Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 12/2/2012 6:39:37 PM

I had a discussion with somebody today about the Israeli settlement policy. It seems that every time Israel builds somewhere, it is being criticized.
Well, now with what the Zionists are up to, I assume there will be even more criticism. How can there not be criticism when they are building settlements on land that does not belong to them?

When Palestinians build, be it on 'disputed' territory or not, nobody cares.
When Palestinians build, it really is just on their own land.

What's the difference ?
There's a big difference. The Zionists keep stealing the land from the Palestinians and build homes on it. And when they are asked to give the land back, they won't even leave the structures ... they disassemble everything.

In that regard, I really wonder if people know what they support when they support the cause of Palestine.
I'd like to think that supporting Palestine means that at some point they too will have their freedom from those who suppress them.

I just don't get it - why are these people supported by large amounts of money from the EU and the US ?
The Palestinians need all the support they can get ... they have nothing and the Zionists receive millions - billions from the US. How is that right?
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 32
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Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 12/4/2012 5:24:18 AM
its always seemed strange to me that 'the west' blindly support anything
israel wants to do. it alienates arabs even the stable ones about the double standards
employed in the middle east.

sooo its obvious which politicos in our respective countries seem to worry more
about israel than they do about their electorate.

so what does the assembled company think of this?

(JTA) -- A lawmaker for Hungary’s ultranationalist Jobbik party demanded that a Parliament colleague resign because she has Israeli citizenship.
Elod Novak said during a news conference Nov. 29 that Katalin Ertsey of the opposition LMP Party should step down because she had an Israeli passport in addition to her Hungarian nationality.
Index, a Hungarian news portal, later quoted Novak as saying, "Israel has more deputies in the Hungarian Parliament than they have in the Israeli Knesset," and this caused the Hungarian Parliament to make “favorable” decisions toward Israel.
Novak sent an email to all deputies on Nov. 28 requesting that in the public interest, they make any dual citizenship public.

http://www.jta.org/news/article/2012/12/02/3113321/jobbik-deputy-israelis-must-leave-hungarys-parliament

now if you can put aside hatreds of populist nationalist working class political partys what the geezer
suggests is i think a good idea.
in the mire that is the middle east the blind support of israel has to be reviewed. and if someone in a position
of influence is not representing hungarian interests then they should go. or renounce the dual nationality
and choose to be hungarian or israeli.
in a dual nationality scenario these politicos are only doing half what they are paid for and where DO their loyalties lie? if push came to shove whos side would thay take? hungarys or israels?

Jobbik: No Israelis in the Hungarian Parliament!
Jobbik: No Israelis in the Hungarian Parliament!People have the right to know how many Israeli-Hungarian dual citizens sit in the government and the Hungarian national assembly, meaning a national security risk for our...
read more....
http://www.jobbik.com/


if hungary could get away from the wests shameful support of zionists (note not ordinary jewish folk)
maybe arab nations would say 'well now your no taking sides hungarian folk lets do some trade together'

strange days ahead as the populist nationalist working class partys gain ground in europe and this could
be a theme which would garner anti zionist support from some of the more enlightened windbags in said
countries
 moonwalkerman
Joined: 2/19/2008
Msg: 33
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Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 12/5/2012 3:36:48 AM
Thanks for all your replies. I got an email from a poster about this thread being rather active, I think it is more than a year ago that I posted it originally.
I wonder how many of you have actually visited Israel. You should really go there. It is a highly developed society, high tech, and people are incredibly smart. It feels like being in let's say California. It is also the only working democracy in the Middle East. Gay rights are guaranteed, as are the rights of minorities. Women have totally equal rights. And their women are...gorgeous !
They also make a lot of good stuff, such as security software. In general, anything these people touch turns into gold.
I think that all surrounding countries should take Israel as an example of how to turn a desert into a paradise, instead of trying to destroy it.
I guess my original post was about why you would support people who apparently have nothing in common with you (at least I hope they don't). If you are gay in any Arab country, you are in trouble, and possibly dead. If you are an atheist, you are in trouble. If you are a woman, you are in trouble. Did you know that in Egypt, about 50 to 80 percent of women get a clitoridectomy ? Why does the UN not address that ? It is medieval barbarism.
I would donate my land to Israel, for free, because I knew that for sure that it would prosper. Anything donated to Arabs would surely turn into filth and dirt. Just go visit a place like Libya, or Morocco. The word decay gets a new dimension there.
 WomanInSF
Joined: 11/13/2012
Msg: 34
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Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 12/5/2012 5:17:58 PM
Well, post #45 just proves that Israel is a really democratic country. Israelis are open about their problems and are working towards resolving those.
“A mercenary for ultra-Orthodox modesty patrols was sentenced to four years in jail in a plea bargain Sunday, for the aggravated assault and intimidation of a formerly Haredi woman.”
http://www.violenceisnotourculture.org/content/israel-modesty-patrol-mercenary-gets-4-years-assaulting-woman

It’s definitely horrible that Israeli religious zealots beat up the women. However, if you are trying to compare them to Arabs then you will notice that Arabs display way more cruelty.
“An Israeli court sentenced a man to 16 years in prison on Tuesday for aiding in the so-called honor killing of his sister. The case was unusual in that the women of the family broke their code of silence and testified against the man.
The murder victim, Hamda Abu Ghanem, was shot and killed in her home in Ramla, a mixed town of Jews and Arabs in central Israel, in January 2007. She was 18 at the time, and was the eighth female member of the Abu Ghanem clan to have been killed in seven years.”
http://www.violenceisnotourculture.org/content/man-sentenced-16-years-imprisonment-honour-killing
 WomanInSF
Joined: 11/13/2012
Msg: 35
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Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 12/5/2012 5:22:50 PM

its always seemed strange to me that 'the west' blindly support anything
israel wants to do. it alienates arabs even the stable ones about the double standards
employed in the middle east.

Not true. Actually, Europe and UN are mostly taking Palestinian’s side against Israel.
 WomanInSF
Joined: 11/13/2012
Msg: 36
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Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 12/5/2012 5:28:11 PM

And when they are asked to give the land back, they won't even leave the structures ... they disassemble everything.

And why shouldn’t they? Israelis built the structures. They gave the land to Arabs, so let Arabs build whatever they want and can.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 37
Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 12/5/2012 6:24:53 PM
They gave the land to Arabs,...

They 'gave' the land to the "Arabs"...?!? Are you serious...?!? More like they need to give back what they stole from the Palestinians by force...

so let Arabs build whatever they want and can.

Umm... the Palestinians DID build what they wanted... The oppressive Israeli occupiers destroyed what the Pa;estinians built, bulldozed the Palestinians' houses and farms, in order to build their illegal settlements... They OWE the Palestinians the infrastructure they destroyed...
 WomanInSF
Joined: 11/13/2012
Msg: 38
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Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 12/6/2012 10:13:51 AM

They 'gave' the land to the "Arabs"...?!? Are you serious...?!? More like they need to give back what they stole from the Palestinians by force...

Actually yes, I am serious. The quote below is from another thread, and I use it to answer your question because I absolutely agree:

…Syria, Jordan, and Egypt fought a war against Israel…..If those three countries had won, there would be no Israel today. You start a war, you lose a war, you lose the land. It has been that way ever since the first humans roamed this planet.



the Palestinians DID build what they wanted... The oppressive Israeli occupiers destroyed what the Pa;estinians built, bulldozed the Palestinians' houses and farms, in order to build their illegal settlements... They OWE the Palestinians the infrastructure they destroyed...

Israelis don’t “owe” Palestinians any infrastructure. See the explanation above about losing the land in a war.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 39
Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 12/6/2012 3:42:20 PM
Actually yes, I am serious. The quote below is from another thread, and I use it to answer your question because I absolutely agree:


…Syria, Jordan, and Egypt fought a war against Israel…..If those three countries had won, there would be no Israel today. You start a war, you lose a war, you lose the land. It has been that way ever since the first humans roamed this planet.

What utter bullshit... An inaccurate, simplistic historical viewpoint for the simple-minded....

Let's just look at some international (country v. country) wars since WW2 to see if that really is true...

Indo-Pakistani War of 1947
Korean War, 1950
Suez Crisis. 1956
Ifni War, 1957
Bizerte crisis, 1961
Sino-Indian War, 1962
Shifta War, 1963
Sand War, 1963
United States occupation of the Dominican Republic, 1965
Indo-Pakistani War of 1965
Warsaw Pact invasion of Czechoslovakia, 1968
Football War, 1969
Sino-Soviet border conflict, 1969
Yom Kippur War, 1973
Cambodian–Vietnamese War, 1975
Libyan–Egyptian War,1977
Uganda–Tanzania War, 1978
Sino-Vietnamese War, 1979
Iran–Iraq War, 1980
Paquisha War, 1981
South Lebanon conflict (1982–2000)
1982 Ethiopian–Somali Border War
Invasion of Grenada (1983)
Agacher Strip War, 1985
1987 Sino-Indian skirmish, 1987
Thai–Laotian Border War, 1987
Nagorno-Karabakh War,1988
Mauritania–Senegal Border War, 1989
United States invasion of Panama, 1989
Persian Gulf War, 1990
Cenepa War, 1995
Kargil War, 1999
Six Day War (Kisangani), 2000
2001 Indian–Bangladeshi border conflict
War in Afghanistan, 2001
Iraq war, 2003
Djiboutian–Eritrean border conflict, 2008

In all of those wars there was not a single case of the victor siezing, and keeping for themselves, the lands of the loser... Not one...

Now lets take a little sampling from before ww2...

Russo-Japanese War, 1904
Dutch-Venezuela War, 1908
Georgian–Armenian War, 1918
Sino-Soviet conflict (1929), 1929
Saudi-Yemeni War, 1934
Ecuadorian–Peruvian War, 1941

Again, no examples in the listing of the victor siezing and keeping the lands of the loser...

How about a brief sampling from the previous century... and this was the tail-end time when the western powers were running around siezing as much land (for colonial purposes) as they could...

First Barbary War, 1801
War of 1812, 1812
Swedish-Norwegian War (1814), 1814
Second Barbary War, 1815
Crimean War, 1853

No, as I said, this "lose a war, lose the land" bs is just what I said before... simple-minded revisionism for simple-minded people...
 WomanInSF
Joined: 11/13/2012
Msg: 40
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Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 12/7/2012 6:05:48 PM

Now lets take a little sampling from before ww2...

Russo-Japanese War, 1904
Dutch-Venezuela War, 1908
Georgian–Armenian War, 1918
Sino-Soviet conflict (1929), 1929
Saudi-Yemeni War, 1934
Ecuadorian–Peruvian War, 1941

Again, no examples in the listing of the victor siezing and keeping the lands of the loser...

OK, I picked one of your examples, Georgian–Armenian War, 1918. Using your own words “What utter bullshit”. There was no victor in this war to keep the lands of the looser. Both countries were unsatisfied with results.

Year Fought: 1918
Between: Georgia vs Armenia
Outcome: Mutual administration of disputed district

Georgian-Armenian War was a border war fought in 1918 between the Democratic Republic of Georgia and the Democratic Republic of Armenia over the parts of then disputed provinces of Lori, Javakheti, and Borchalo district, which had been historically bicultural Armenian-Georgian territories, but were largely populated by Armenians in the 19th century. By the end of World War I some of these territories were occupied by the Ottomans. When they abandoned the region, both Georgians and Armenians claimed control. The dispute degenerated into armed clashes on December 7, 1918. The hostilities continued with varying success until December 31 when the British brokered ceasefire was signed, leaving the disputed part of Borchalo district under the joint Georgian-Armenian administration which lasted until the establishment of the Soviet rule in Armenia in 1920.
http://listverse.com/2007/09/28/top-10-shortest-wars/
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 41
Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 12/7/2012 9:31:02 PM
OK, I picked one of your examples, Georgian–Armenian War, 1918. Using your own words “What utter bullshit”. There was no victor in this war to keep the lands of the looser. Both countries were unsatisfied with results.

ROFLMAO

That is the best you can do for a rebuttal...? You still have not, in any way, disproven what I have said, or given your point any support of substance... Sorry, but you are going to have to do better than that...

One pre-ww2 example, where you disingenuously, if not obtusely, claim "no victor" is not a meaningful rebuttal of the point I made... Aside from the fact that history considers Georgia the victor (because they were, in fact, winning at war's end) you are completely ignoring, either intentionaly or out of ignorance, the actions and outcomes of the actual hostilities...

Armenian-Georgian tensions finally exploded into open war in December of 1918. Full-scale military clashes followed attempts by Georgian forces to repress an Armenian uprising in Lori protesting against Georgian misrule and abuse. Taking the form of a popular peoples' war, Armenian forces initially registered significant gains particularly under the leadership of General Dro. Rapidly however their fortunes dipped. Armenian positions were undermined by Georgian control of sea, road and rail routes essential for Armenian supplies and reinforcements.

http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=Georgian-Armenian_War

On 5 December 1918, Armenia sent troops to occupy Borchalo and Akhalkalaki districts. The first military clashes occurred on 9 December. Three days later, the Armenians scored a victory in the village of Sanahin in the Lori district, took over the village and its surroundings after surprise attacks, to build up effective defensive positions. The main advancing forces were halted and the Georgian Army mounted a counteroffensive, winning a battle at Shulaveri on 29 December.[2] and forcing an Armenian retreat. Hostilities ended at the village of Sadakhlo on the night of 31 December, when the parties agreed to a British-brokered ceasefire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian%E2%80%93Armenian_War

Try again when you can produce a serious and meaningful rebuttal to the point... Of course, I'm not really expecting that you can, the history of modern warfare simply doesn't support your contention...
 PGL7
Joined: 8/7/2010
Msg: 42
Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 12/8/2012 3:29:23 AM

Try again when you can produce a serious and meaningful rebuttal to the point... Of course, I'm not really expecting that you can, the history of modern warfare simply doesn't support your contention...


How about Kosovo 2008 and South Sudan 2011?
Both won through war.
South Sudan fought a two bitter civil wars for 50 years.
The KLA Kosovo Liberation Army fought the Serbs in 1998-99.
Serbia still does not recognize Kosovo.

Sounds like Israel and some of its Arab neighbours.
 PGL7
Joined: 8/7/2010
Msg: 43
Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 12/8/2012 5:01:29 AM
[Quote]It will be good when nato pulls out finally and the Serbs take back whats theirs.

Perhaps but wouldn't that be the same as the Jews returning to Canaan?
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 44
Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 12/8/2012 12:14:52 PM


Try again when you can produce a serious and meaningful rebuttal to the point... Of course, I'm not really expecting that you can, the history of modern warfare simply doesn't support your contention...

How about Kosovo 2008 and South Sudan 2011?
Both won through war.
South Sudan fought a two bitter civil wars for 50 years.
The KLA Kosovo Liberation Army fought the Serbs in 1998-99.
Serbia still does not recognize Kosovo.

Sounds like Israel and some of its Arab neighbours.

It doesn't sound anything like Israel and its Arab neighbours... There is a failure of logic in your assertion, can you figure out what it is...?

I won't make you stew... Both your examples are civil/internal conflicts (rebellions/revolutions), irrelevant to the contention and therefore no rebuttal... Sorry, no cigar...
 WomanInSF
Joined: 11/13/2012
Msg: 45
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Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 12/9/2012 9:42:13 AM
Well, mungojoe, you are so blinded by your hatred to Israel, that you give facts interpretation to match your believes. I honestly think that in your opinion Israel has no right to exist, and it's people should be pushed into the sea. I have no need to argue to you. Your convictions make no difference to me.

By the way, implying that someone else is simple-minded and ignorant doesn't make you any more superior... Just FYI
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 46
Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 12/9/2012 10:06:28 AM
I honestly think that in your opinion Israel has no right to exist, and it's people should be pushed into the sea.

Well... Your personal opinion, derived without basis in fact, means nothing... If you are going to make the accusation then prove it otherwise it is just a lot of meaningless hot air...

Well, mungojoe, you are so blinded by your hatred to Israel, that you give facts interpretation to match your believes.

Again, prove it... Oh wait, I get it, you're just blowing more hot air here... Make the accusation, never mind supporting it, and hope it sticks somewhere... Typical tactic...

Your convictions make no difference to me.

And, apparently, neither does fact...

By the way, implying that someone else is simple-minded and ignorant doesn't make you any more superior... Just FYI

I didn't imply anything, I made a clear statement... Beside, I don't need to, I can stand just fine on my superior logic and understanding of the facts...
 WomanInSF
Joined: 11/13/2012
Msg: 47
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Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 12/9/2012 10:48:43 AM
No, it's not your "superior logic". It's your anger. You don't grasp all the facts, you only pick and choose the ones to advance your agenda. You don't present a balanced picture. I've never seen any post by you condeming palestinians. Have they done nothing wrong?

Also, calling me names like you did shows your intolerance to others' opinions and makes you an inferior human being.

This conversation became too personal. I am not replying to you anymore.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 48
Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 12/9/2012 11:10:24 AM

No, it's not your "superior logic". It's your anger.

Well then, once again, prove it... Demonstrate where I have shown anger... Let's see the quote...

This is now twice I've asked you to support an accusation presented without facts... I'm starting to think you can't do so, that certainly would explain why you keep repeating tha same accusations without ever supporting them...

You don't grasp all the facts, you only pick and choose the ones to advance your agenda.

Again, prove it... Show where I have failed to "grasp all the facts"... Provide the quote and support it by presenting the facts I am apparently missing...

You don't present a balanced picture. I've never seen any post by you condeming palestinians. Have they done nothing wrong?

ROFLMAO

Another typical tactic... And an utter failure of logic... The mere fact that I haven't said anything with which you agree does not make my points "unbalanced"...

You may want to read up on logical fallacies, the 'homework' would be helpful...

Israel's wrongs are Israel's wrongs and no-one else's wrongs mitigate them... You have heard the old saw "two wrongs don't make a right" haven't you...?
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 49
Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 12/11/2012 12:35:50 PM
Yanno Joe,

I think many confuse Palesinians with being of Hamas...when the reality is that few Palestinaian's are Hamas. Quite unfortunately, Hamas choses to bomb Isreal from populated area's...consequently, unfortunately, Isreal bomb's Hamas in these populated area's...this get's the chicken hawk's panties in a bunch and they become ready to send your kids to war.

Isreal see's, as it's right, to garner more area/land in order to protect itself...Palestinian's see this as land grabbing...

Every day Palestinian's go across the Isreali border to perform much of the labor in nearby Isreal...the impovernished get an unsatisfying taste of what it's like to be middle class...then at the end of a work day get to go back to Palestine where there may or may not be electricity and running water.

I often think it's hard to decide whom is totally at fault here...and clearly, I do not know enough to make an informed opinion based on a wealth of facts.

What I do know is that it seems as though these are two opposing fanitical sides...and coming to any equitable agreement by the two seems far fetched...I will add that it seems as though Ms. Clinton and the Obama administration have gone/done very well, over the past 4 years, in maintaining America's interests in the area.
 PGL7
Joined: 8/7/2010
Msg: 50
Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 12/11/2012 12:49:44 PM

No as the jews are Europeans.
the few Jews that were there before the fracas got along well with their muslim cousins.


Who said anything about Muslims?
I thought it was about Palestinians?

The Jews are Europeans... really did they spontaneously morph into life in Europe?
Weren't they kicked out of the land of Canaan (modern day Israel) by the Romans even before there were any Muslims?
The fact is the land that Israel now resides on has been conquered and occupied dozens of times throughout history.

Israel is there due to The United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine.
The Palestinians and Arab league rejected the plan and so there is no peace.

Until Israel is assured of it's existence I doubt they will give back any spoils of war they gained.
They deserve the right to exist just as the Palestinians (who were never a country) do also.
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