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Show ALL Forums  > Politics  > Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?      Home login  
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 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 46
Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?Page 3 of 3    (1, 2, 3)
I honestly think that in your opinion Israel has no right to exist, and it's people should be pushed into the sea.

Well... Your personal opinion, derived without basis in fact, means nothing... If you are going to make the accusation then prove it otherwise it is just a lot of meaningless hot air...

Well, mungojoe, you are so blinded by your hatred to Israel, that you give facts interpretation to match your believes.

Again, prove it... Oh wait, I get it, you're just blowing more hot air here... Make the accusation, never mind supporting it, and hope it sticks somewhere... Typical tactic...

Your convictions make no difference to me.

And, apparently, neither does fact...

By the way, implying that someone else is simple-minded and ignorant doesn't make you any more superior... Just FYI

I didn't imply anything, I made a clear statement... Beside, I don't need to, I can stand just fine on my superior logic and understanding of the facts...
 WomanInSF
Joined: 11/13/2012
Msg: 47
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History
Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 12/9/2012 10:48:43 AM
No, it's not your "superior logic". It's your anger. You don't grasp all the facts, you only pick and choose the ones to advance your agenda. You don't present a balanced picture. I've never seen any post by you condeming palestinians. Have they done nothing wrong?

Also, calling me names like you did shows your intolerance to others' opinions and makes you an inferior human being.

This conversation became too personal. I am not replying to you anymore.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 48
Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 12/9/2012 11:10:24 AM

No, it's not your "superior logic". It's your anger.

Well then, once again, prove it... Demonstrate where I have shown anger... Let's see the quote...

This is now twice I've asked you to support an accusation presented without facts... I'm starting to think you can't do so, that certainly would explain why you keep repeating tha same accusations without ever supporting them...

You don't grasp all the facts, you only pick and choose the ones to advance your agenda.

Again, prove it... Show where I have failed to "grasp all the facts"... Provide the quote and support it by presenting the facts I am apparently missing...

You don't present a balanced picture. I've never seen any post by you condeming palestinians. Have they done nothing wrong?

ROFLMAO

Another typical tactic... And an utter failure of logic... The mere fact that I haven't said anything with which you agree does not make my points "unbalanced"...

You may want to read up on logical fallacies, the 'homework' would be helpful...

Israel's wrongs are Israel's wrongs and no-one else's wrongs mitigate them... You have heard the old saw "two wrongs don't make a right" haven't you...?
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 49
Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 12/11/2012 12:35:50 PM
Yanno Joe,

I think many confuse Palesinians with being of Hamas...when the reality is that few Palestinaian's are Hamas. Quite unfortunately, Hamas choses to bomb Isreal from populated area's...consequently, unfortunately, Isreal bomb's Hamas in these populated area's...this get's the chicken hawk's panties in a bunch and they become ready to send your kids to war.

Isreal see's, as it's right, to garner more area/land in order to protect itself...Palestinian's see this as land grabbing...

Every day Palestinian's go across the Isreali border to perform much of the labor in nearby Isreal...the impovernished get an unsatisfying taste of what it's like to be middle class...then at the end of a work day get to go back to Palestine where there may or may not be electricity and running water.

I often think it's hard to decide whom is totally at fault here...and clearly, I do not know enough to make an informed opinion based on a wealth of facts.

What I do know is that it seems as though these are two opposing fanitical sides...and coming to any equitable agreement by the two seems far fetched...I will add that it seems as though Ms. Clinton and the Obama administration have gone/done very well, over the past 4 years, in maintaining America's interests in the area.
 PGL7
Joined: 8/7/2010
Msg: 50
Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 12/11/2012 12:49:44 PM

No as the jews are Europeans.
the few Jews that were there before the fracas got along well with their muslim cousins.


Who said anything about Muslims?
I thought it was about Palestinians?

The Jews are Europeans... really did they spontaneously morph into life in Europe?
Weren't they kicked out of the land of Canaan (modern day Israel) by the Romans even before there were any Muslims?
The fact is the land that Israel now resides on has been conquered and occupied dozens of times throughout history.

Israel is there due to The United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine.
The Palestinians and Arab league rejected the plan and so there is no peace.

Until Israel is assured of it's existence I doubt they will give back any spoils of war they gained.
They deserve the right to exist just as the Palestinians (who were never a country) do also.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 51
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Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 12/11/2012 6:02:56 PM

Israel is there due to The United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine.
What has never been clear to me is ...
... why land was taken from Palestine and just turned over?
... what did the Palestinians ever do to deserve their land being taken from them and just given away to greedy Zionists?
... why can't the Zionists just live with the land that was granted to them?
... what did the Palestinians ever do to deserve the Zionists going after them and killing them?
 PGL7
Joined: 8/7/2010
Msg: 52
Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 12/11/2012 7:56:56 PM

What has never been clear to me is ...
... why land was taken from Palestine and just turned over?
... what did the Palestinians ever do to deserve their land being taken from them and just given away to greedy Zionists?
... why can't the Zionists just live with the land that was granted to them?
... what did the Palestinians ever do to deserve the Zionists going after them and killing them?


The was no Palestine is the answer.
There never was a palestinian country or a Palestinian people.

Prior to defeat of the Ottoman (Turkish) Empire in World War I, there was no geopolitical entity called “Palestine,” no Arab nation ever set historical roots on this soil and no national claim was ever made to the territory by any national group other than the Jews.
Between the time of the expulsion of the Jews by the Romans in the year 70 to 132 AD and the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in 1918, Israel (“Palestine”) was occupied by fourteen conquerors over thirteen centuries, until in 1948 the Jews once again declared their independence.

1. Israel Rule (Biblical period) 1350 BC to 586 BC
2. Babylonian Conquest 587 BC to 538 BC
3. Israel Autonomy (under Persian & Greco-Assyrian sovereignty) 538 BC to 168 BC
4. Revolt of the Maccabees 168 BC to 143 BC
5. Rule of the Hashmoneans & their successors 143 BC to 70 AD
6. Jewish Autonomy (under Roman & Byzantine sovereignty) 70 AD to 637 AD
7. Rule of Moslem Caliphs
Mecca 637 AD to 661 AD
Umayyides 661 AD to 750 AD
Abbaaside 750 AD to 870 AD
Fatimides 969 AD to 1071 AD 637 AD to 1072 AD
8. Seljukes Rule 1072 AD to 1096 AD
9. Crusaders
Ayyubids (in parts only) 1175 AD to 1291 AD 1099 AD to 1291 AD
10. Mamelukes Rule 1291 AD to 1516 AD
11. Ottomans (Turks) 1516 AD to 1918 AD
12. British Mandate 1918 AD to 1948 AD
13. Israel rule under democracy 1948 AD --- .

Various Moslem Caliphates, which which were foreigners, extended for a period of 432 years – Jewish rule of “Palestine” extended over a period of over 2000 years.

A true Palestinian people really don't exist until 1834 when the Ottoman arabs living in Palestine revolted against the Egyptian/Ottoman rulers.

There was no country called Palestine and really no people calling themselves Palestinians.
Much of the land was inhabitable till developed by Israel after 1918 Balfour Declaration.

As for the "Greedy Zionists" taking there land in fact it was in fact Jordan and Egypt that did that.
In 1948 Jordan annexed the west bank and East Jerusalem while Egypt seized Gaza.
These two areas had previously been awarded to the Palestinians.

The Palestinians should really be upset with Jordan and Egypt but this war is not about land but rather about politics.
 PGL7
Joined: 8/7/2010
Msg: 53
Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 12/12/2012 5:49:55 AM

So after hundreds of years of living in Europe. some since ancient times. mostly assimilating and intermingling.
They can just go back and claim a place as theirs.... wait till the native americans get that memo.


Actually the Jews never left the area. There was always a minority there.


Well at least my ancestors kicked them out, and wrecked the temple, used the spoils to build the colosseum.
and the arch.


Not sure who your ancestors are but...
I believe it was the Romans who actually dispersed the Jews from Canaan (modern day Israel).
The Romans started dispersing the Jews in 70 AD and since Muhammad didn't live till the 600's it wasn't the Muslims who concurred the Jew's.


Palestinians are for the most part of the islamic faith right?

Not sure I suppose so they are certainly Arab.
Although they were originally a vervy diverse group of varying religions and nationalities. Certainly Islam swept the area hundreds of years ago after the Jews were run off by the Romans. The actual Palestinian people do not come into play until the 1800's when they rebel against the Ottoman/Egyptian rule they were under.

Anyway both Jews and Palestinians deserve a homeland.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 54
Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 12/12/2012 3:07:03 PM

Well at least my ancestors kicked them out, and wrecked the temple, used the spoils to build the colosseum.
and the arch.



Not sure who your ancestors are but...
I believe it was the Romans who actually dispersed the Jews from Canaan (modern day Israel).
The Romans started dispersing the Jews in 70 AD and since Muhammad didn't live till the 600's...

Well... Given that he stated his ancestors "wrecked the temple" and built "the colosseum" and "the arch" I would say it is abundantly obvious who his ancestors were...
it wasn't the Muslims who concurred the Jew's.

I'm wondering what Muslims concurring with Jews has to do with the Romans' (Italian ancestors) conquest of that part of the world...
 WomanInSF
Joined: 11/13/2012
Msg: 55
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Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 12/12/2012 3:38:12 PM

I think many confuse Palesinians with being of Hamas...when the reality is that few Palestinaian's are Hamas. Quite unfortunately, Hamas choses to bomb Isreal from populated area's...consequently, unfortunately, Isreal bomb's Hamas in these populated area's...this get's the chicken hawk's panties in a bunch and they become ready to send your kids to war.

Isreal see's, as it's right, to garner more area/land in order to protect itself...Palestinian's see this as land grabbing...

I almost agree with that accept I would replace a word “confuse” with “identify”. Since majority of Palestinians support Hamas (Hamas members are located in Palestinians’ households, places of worship, etc), it’s kind of a natural outcome.

... why land was taken from Palestine and just turned over?
Decision was made by UN

... what did the Palestinians ever do to deserve their land being taken from them and just given away to greedy Zionists?
I don’t know, but the decision was made by UN

... why can't the Zionists just live with the land that was granted to them?
They tried but their neighbors keep starting the wars

... what did the Palestinians ever do to deserve the Zionists going after them and killing them?
Palestinians kill Israelis, so Israelis have to protect their people and retaliate.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 56
Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 12/12/2012 4:34:59 PM
I almost agree with that accept I would replace a word “confuse” with “identify”. Since majority of Palestinians support Hamas (Hamas members are located in Palestinians’ households, places of worship, etc), it’s kind of a natural outcome.

It might be "natural" if what you said were true... Unfortunately for you, it isn't... Palestinian support for Haniyeh and the Hamas gov't runs between 18-23%, a FAR cry from a majority... Even more to the point, 67% of Gazans think they should have their own "Arab Spring" to remove Hamas... The disconnect between the statements above (the "identify" and "support" ones) and reality make those statements rather bigoted, don't you think...?

http://www.cfr.org/israel/hamas/p8968#p9

http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2011/p39efull.html
Decision was made by UN

The UN also set aside land for a Palestinian state, land which Israel has stolen, and is currently STILL stealing from them...

They tried but their neighbors keep starting the wars

Israel's neighbours haven't started a war since 1973... and yet Israel is STILL stealing land set aside for the Palestinians and still treating Gaza and the West Bank like a modern-day Warsaw Ghetto...
 WomanInSF
Joined: 11/13/2012
Msg: 57
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Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 12/13/2012 12:19:29 PM

Their contention is that Hamas chooses to launch their rockets from populated areas in Gaza, and therefore the IDF can legitimately bomb the schools, the hospitals and the residential buildings, killing hundreds of innocent civilians.
And what is the solution? Would you expect Israelis not to respond and allow their people to get killed?

There are no open spaces reserved for Hamas to launch their rockets to Israel.
Then maybe Hamas shouldn’t launch their rockets at all?
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 58
Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 12/13/2012 1:45:08 PM

And what is the solution? Would you expect Israelis not to respond and allow their people to get killed?

And just exactly how many innocent Palestinian lives equal one innocent Israeli life...? What is the ratio...? 1:1...? 10:1....? 100:1...? 4,293,313:1...?
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 59
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Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 12/14/2012 6:49:19 AM
an interesting wee article from the daily telegraph here in the uk. now the telegraph
which is also refered to as the daily torygraph is usually pro tory government so
this is a wee bit of a shift imho

On Monday night, one former British ambassador to Israel, the Hebrew-speaking Sir Sherard Cowper-Coles, made an eloquent speech from which it is important to quote at some length: “I believe passionately that Israel on its present course is embarked on a pathway to assisted suicide. Suicide assisted by the Congress of the United States. The idea that the problem can be solved by walling up the Palestinians in the Middle Eastern equivalent of the Bantustans, which the South African government embarked on in the 1940s, is not only offensive morally, it is deeply out of keeping with everything we know of human history. It will not work, it cannot work, it should not work. And anyone who has a real affection for the Jewish people will want to help them to avoid this looming disaster.”

The warmth forged 107 years ago is today sustained by the Conservative Friends of Israel (CFI). Some 80 per cent of all Tory MPs are members, including most Cabinet ministers. [my thoughts (to me this is a conflict of interest and is detrimental to the uk and our folk)]

This lack of even-handedness reflects itself in policy. When William Hague denounced Israel’s 2006 invasion of Lebanon as “disproportionate”, the CFI (as I revealed in a film on the pro-Israeli lobby for Channel 4’s Dispatches) complained in person to David Cameron. It obtained a promise that the word would never be used again – one that was kept when Israel bombarded Gaza last month, even though the number of Palestinian deaths vastly exceeded those on the Israeli side.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/9740044/The-cowardice-at-the-heart-of-our-relationship-with-Israel.html#

the documentary the geezer mentions can be watched here
http://www.redress.cc/stooges/slittlewood20091118
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 60
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Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 12/14/2012 5:18:29 PM
It has been profoundly clear to many of us that the goal of the Zionists is to exterminate the Palestinians ... slowly however surely.

The Zionists will not be happy until they have stolen all the land from the Palestinians and killed every last one of them.

Maybe then too, the Christians so hopeful for Armageddon will get what they want ... the extermination of the Palestinians so that they can all migrate to Israel (at the end of the world


http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/End-Times/On-The-Road-To-Armageddon.aspx
On the Road to Armageddon
How evangelicals became Israel's best friend.

Adapted with permission from On the Road to Armageddon: How Evangelicals Became Israel's Best Friend, by Timothy P. Weber, copyright 2004 Baker Academic, a division of Baker Publishing Group.

In a recent Time/CNN poll, more than one-third of Americans said that since the terrorist attacks of 9/11, they have been thinking more about how current events might be leading to the end of the world.

(Excerpts)

While only 36 percent of all Americans believe that the Bible is God's Word and should be taken literally, 59 percent say they believe that events predicted in the Book of Revelation will come to pass. Almost one out of four Americans believes that 9/11 was predicted in the Bible, and nearly one in five believes that he or she will live long enough to see the end of the world. Even more significant for this study, over one-third of those Americans who support Israel report that they do so because they believe the Bible teaches that the Jews must possess their own country in the Holy Land before Jesus can return.

Millions of Americans believe that the Bible predicts the future and that we are living in the last days. Their beliefs are rooted in dispensationalism, a particular way of understanding the Bible's prophetic passages, especially those in Daniel and Ezekiel in the Old Testament and the Book of Revelation in the New Testament. They make up about one-third of America's 40 or 50 million evangelical Christians and believe that the nation of Israel will play a central role in the unfolding of end-times events. In the last part of the 20th century, dispensationalist evangelicals become Israel's best friends-an alliance that has made a serious geopolitical difference.
*********************************************************************
Though dispensationalists fine-tuned their prophetic interpretations as needed over time, they retained their core belief about the role of Jews in the last days. For over 100 years, their insistence on the restoration of the Jewish state in the Holy Land seemed far-fetched. But after the founding of Israel in 1948 and its expansion after the Six-Day War, dispensationalists promoted their ideas with the confidence that Bible prophecy was being fulfilled for all to see.
*********************************************************************
Before the founding and expansion of Israel, dispensationalists were more or less content to teach their doctrine, look for signs of the times, and predict in sometimes great detail what was going to happen in the future. They believed that they would be raptured before most end-times events actually took place, but they expected to be here long enough to see history moving decisively in a predetermined direction.
*********************************************************************
Now that Jews were "home" in the Land of Israel and had expanded beyond its 1948 borders, dspensationalists became committed to keeping them there.

During the early 1980s the Israeli Ministry of Tourism recruited evangelical religious leaders for free "familiarization" tours ............ The Ministry of Tourism was interested in more than tourist dollars: here was a way of building a solid corps of non-Jewish supporters for Israel in the United States by bringing large numbers of evangelicals to hear and see Israel's story for themselves. The strategy caught on.

Getting American evangelicals to travel to Israel was only half of the Israeli strategy. The other half was to create a politically-engaged, pro-Israel force among conservative American Christians in the United States.
*********************************************************************
By the mid-1980s, there was a discernible shift in the Israeli political strategy. The American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), the Jewish state's major lobbying group in Washington, D.C., started re-aligning itself with the American political right-wing, including Christian conservatives. Israel's timing was perfect. It began working seriously with American dispensationalists at the precise moment that American fundamentalists and evangelicals were discovering their political voice.
*********************************************************************
Probably the largest pro-Israel organization of its kind is the National Unity Coalition for Israel, which was founded by a Jewish woman who learned how to get dispensationalist support. NUCI opposes "the establishment of a Palestinian state within the borders of Israel." The organization distributes an array of newsletters and "chutzpah action alerts" to keep its members informed and involved and claims that it can mount a "virtual March on the White House" at a moment's notice if necessary.

Bridges for Peace is an educational and charitable organization that is driven by its view of Bible prophecy. In addition to sponsoring a variety of tours and educational opportunities, the organization operates the largest food bank in Israel. Christian Friends of Israeli Communities pairs up individual evangelical congregations in America with Israeli settlements on the West Bank.
*********************************************************************
If dispensationalists have been Israel's best friends for the last 30 years, what has such friendship produced? One result has been the emergence of a strong and apparently unwavering supporter for Israel in the United States. The many pro-Israel organizations created by dispensationalists have undoubtedly made a difference. In a political world in which popular pressure counts, Israel is in a stronger position today because of the willingness of American premillennialists to throw their political clout around. The willingness of Christian conservatives to stand up for Israel has helped U.S./Israeli relations stay strong.

There is a downside to the dispensationalist/Israeli friendship. In their commitment to keep Israel strong and moving in directions prophesied by the Bible, dispensationalists are supporting some of the most dangerous elements in Israeli society. They do so because such political and religious elements seem to conform to dispensationalist beliefs about what is coming next for Israel. By lending their support-both financial and spiritual-to such groups, dispensationalists are helping the future they envision come to pass.

Throughout their history, dispensationalists have predicted that before the final events of the End Times can take place, the Temple must be rebuilt in Jerusalem. According to their scenario, half way through the Great Tribulation, Antichrist will enter the restored Temple and declare himself to be God. To outsiders, such predictions always seemed farfetched. But in the Six-Day War Israel gained control of the entire city of Jerusalem, including the Temple Mount. Suddenly all things seemed possible, at least to some people.
*********************************************************************
Not all dispensationalists agreed on all the details, but in general they saw a rebuilt Temple as indispensable to the completion of God's prophetic program. Of course, there were many practical impediments to the realization of these hopes, not the least of which was the existence of the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa mosque on the site of the future Temple. How could the Temple be built, when the Temple Mount was already "occupied" by Muslim sacred sites? The answer to this question varied.
*********************************************************************
For the dispensational community, the future is determined. The Bible's prophecies are being fulfilled with amazing accuracy and rapidity.
*********************************************************************
The worse thing that the United States, the European Union, Russia, and the United Nations can do is force Israel to give up land for a peace that will never materialize this side of the second coming. Anyone who pushes for peace in such a manner is ignoring or defying God's plan for the end of the age.
*********************************************************************
The evidence shows that in the last 35 years dispensationalists have decided that faithfulness to God demands that they actively support the plan. Such support has taken many forms, from lobbying the U.S. government to guarantee its pro-Israel policies remain strong, to helping Jews in the former Soviet Union immigrate to the Land of Promise, to traveling to the Holy Land in large numbers and marching in the streets of Jerusalem to show solidarity, to contributing financially and in other ways to Israeli settlements in the so-called occupied territories, to promoting the views considered extreme and dangerous by most Israelis, to using scientific expertise to engineer a perfect red heifer to speed the building of the Temple so Jesus can return.

It seems clear that dispensationalism is on a roll, that its followers feel they are riding the wave of history into the shore of God's final plan. Why should they climb back into the stands when being on the field of play is so much more fun and apparently so beneficial to the game's outcome? As a Bridges for Peace advertisement read, "Don't just read about prophecy when you can be part of it."
 besamiculo
Joined: 1/30/2015
Msg: 61
Hamas, PA, Palestine...why would we support it ?
Posted: 2/3/2015 9:49:03 AM
wall o'text..not very convincing
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