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 kissmekindsir
Joined: 11/16/2008
Msg: 75
Reincarnation in the BiblePage 7 of 7    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)
From post # 137:


Also, most Orthodox Jews believe in Gilgul Neshamot, reincarnation, that our souls have damaged themselves through sin, and so need to perform a Tikun, a "fix" on their soul, before they return to Heaven and stay there. Until then, they keep having to come back, to make their Tikun, their "fix". One can even make a partial fix, but still need to return to the Earth, to complete the rest. One famous Rabbi would always stand up when disabled children came into the room, saying that these were the reincarnated souls of great righteous people, who had completed almost all of their Tikun. Because G-d wanted to ensure that they could complete the tiny part of their Tikun that was left, and be protected from runining their hard efforts, by making a mistake in sinning, he made them disabled, so they could not sin or do anything but fix their Tikun.


Very enlightening, but I wonder how much the Grreek conquest about 300 years before Christ and latter the Roman beleifs that were somewhat borrowed from the Greek myths had or have influenced present Judaism?

I know some Jews who claim to be devout who say there is 'no afterlife'! It's refreshing to know there are many like yourself who have a greater interest in the next life with factual data to substantiate the beleifs.

It had to be the Early corruption of the Catholic Church that robbed this beleif in Jewish re-incarnation from the masses! And then as Revelation says '...Daughter of the whore...', refering to the searching yet confused protestant Churches that sprouting from her since Luther and King Henry VIII!

Then the Grreek myth of the following may be the first New Testament connection to the Heaven and Hell correlation:

http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Haides.html

See Also the History Channel's take on Heaven, Hell, and Dantes influence with the early Church!
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 76
view profile
History
Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 7/17/2009 12:31:35 PM
RE Msg: 138 by kissmekindsir:
Very enlightening, but I wonder how much the Grreek conquest about 300 years before Christ and latter the Roman beleifs that were somewhat borrowed from the Greek myths had or have influenced present Judaism?
I took a great interest in Greek and Roman myths as a kid. I learned about it in school, and then I and my siblings found my dad's books on Greek and Roman myths in his library. It was really interesting. But it didn't match anything that I learned about in Judaism, not even a little bit, excepting for that they might have had a flood story as well. But I've read of flood stories in everything from Chinese legends, to South American legends. That seems to be universal. It made me wonder if it was so common in legends all over the world, because it is one of the few things that were supposed to affect the entire world for long enough for everyone to notice.

I know some Jews who claim to be devout who say there is 'no afterlife'! It's refreshing to know there are many like yourself who have a greater interest in the next life with factual data to substantiate the beleifs.
Thanks. Those are probably people who were born Jewish, that is, that they have Jewish parents, but have no belief in religion at all, or Reform Jews, which means they belong to the Reform movement, a German-originated outgrowth of the Emancipation movement, that re-interprets Judaism as primitive attemps at science. Neither group's views represent the views of Orthodox Jews.

It had to be the Early corruption of the Catholic Church that robbed this beleif in Jewish re-incarnation from the masses! And then as Revelation says '...Daughter of the whore...', refering to the searching yet confused protestant Churches that sprouting from her since Luther and King Henry VIII!
I really cannot comment on that, not without historical references confirming that.

See Also the History Channel's take on Heaven, Hell, and Dantes influence with the early Church!
Dante's ideas of Hell did influence many people's view of Hell. However, AFAIK, Dante made it up. It was a novel. It was just such a good read, and so imaginative, that many believed it must be true.
 2hi-iq-4u
Joined: 5/29/2009
Msg: 77
Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 7/17/2009 2:00:14 PM
The wheat are His whom He saved, the chaff are the lost. The saved are baptized in the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:8) The lost are to be immersed/baptized in fire on the day of judgement .


The wheat are [the word of the wise] which He saved, the chaff are [the word of ] the lost. The saved [words] are [blessed] by the [Spirit of Truth and Wisdom.]

Hard to forget when you have "The living Word" and the "Spirit of Truth and wisdom" always pricking at your heart.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 78
view profile
History
Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 7/17/2009 2:46:03 PM
RE Msg: 140 by chelloveck:

It was just such a good read, and so imaginative, that many believed it must be true.
The same also may be said of many sacred texts
We KNOW that Dante considered his book as fiction. But we cannot just claim that all books are fictional. Otherwise, one could claim that Darwin only meant "The Origin of Species" to be a good fictional read, and never to be taken as reality.


I also was and am still an avid reader of ancient Greek, Roman and Norse mythology, finding them very entertaining in a pantheistic days of our lives kind of way. I was quite a religiose Anglican in my earlier years, looking at the incredible goings on of Greek, Roman and Norse gods, goddeses, and other divine and semi divine beings as being altogether too fantastic to be real. It took me to adulthood to realise, that the Abrahamic faiths are of the same mythological genre of literature. Reincarnation and rebirth seems to be a common theme in many religions and cultures....that it is a commonplace notion, does not mean that there is any factual basis for the belief, just that there is a desire to have a better life, than the one we are living.
I used to consider that likely. Until I made the effort to learn about my religion, and realised that the similarities I thought I saw, were really nothing at all, and were the result of ignorance. When I returned to go to university, I found that many people were saying the same sort of things I thought likely. But I thought they had to thinking maturely, as adults. We would hang out, and I saw that when they were talking about or doing anything, they were still talking and doing things in a childish manner. It took me even longer, until I realised that they'd never grown up. Growing bigger is pretty much out of our control. Growing up, thinking and acting maturely, is purely optional. Often, people never grow up.
 kissmekindsir
Joined: 11/16/2008
Msg: 79
Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 7/21/2009 4:52:18 PM
From Post # 137:


Speaking as a "traditional" Jew (we call ourselves Orthodox Jews), there is a concept of Heaven and Hell in Judaism. In Judaism, when you die, you are given a punishment for every bad thing you did, or every good thing you avoided doing, in Hell, which you can spend a maximum of an Earth year in, but no more, and then you are given a reward for every good thing you did and every bad thing you made yourself not do, in Heaven. There are a few exceptions. If you have done truly extreme evil, then G-d might reward your few good deeds in this life, so that you do not even get into Heaven, and after Hell, your soul ends in oblivion. In a few rare exceptions, someone who has done much good and much evil, experiences "the slingshot", where 2 angels slingshot your soul from one end of the Earth to the other, before they go to Hell.

I believe the Xian equivalent of Jewish Hell is called Purgatory. But there is no concept in Judaism of a place where anyone resides in everlasting Hell.


It would be grand for one of Jewish ancestry, who honestly knows something, to post a few Old Testament verses defending this re-incarnation facts in pre-Christian documents.

It seems some on here are such robots that if they were under G.W. Tush and his military they'd do whatever he asked without thinking regardless of the proof contrary.

But you have somewhat proven that the STANDARD orthodox Christian beleif in the afterlife is severely flawed *IF* your documents on Judaism strongly contradict the vanguard Heaven and Hell fanatics!
 lovinvixen
Joined: 9/10/2008
Msg: 80
Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 8/27/2009 3:24:24 PM
To cement this argument, if anyone was watching the History Channel this week.....there was a film about Hades. It was a Greek concept that Hades was the primary god of the Underworld and that it was a Greek concept for thousands of years!

Could it have been Borrowed and revised by the Early Church leadership?

It brought out that Christianity entered the picture and ideas changed, is there a chance that many of us have been doped into false beleif from the Greek Conquest of Israel and latter it influenced Christian beleif as reincarnation by this thread has been shown to exist in Judaism?

Also, a film about Ulysses and the Sirens dealt on the same topic on the scarry movie channel the same night bringing up the god Hades! Coincidence????????????
 MetroJack
Joined: 1/30/2009
Msg: 84
Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 10/25/2009 12:23:17 PM
Quoting bible verses is one way to get peoples attention but If you want them to be interested in what you are trying to convey...this approach is doomed from the start....

~A
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 85
view profile
History
Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 10/25/2009 7:28:22 PM
RE Msg: 148 by CountIbli:
I've never heard this before. I don't recall reading anything remotely like this in the OT. Where does your information come from?
The oral law. Jews believe that the Written Law and the Oral Law were given to Moses, and he passed both on to the Jews. Each forms one half of a whole of the Jewish religion.
 logic32272
Joined: 6/23/2009
Msg: 86
Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 10/29/2009 2:10:31 PM
Answer: The concept of reincarnation is completely without foundation in the Bible, which clearly tells us that we die once and then face judgment (Hebrews 9:27). The Bible never mentions people having a second chance at life or coming back as different people or animals. Jesus told the criminal on the cross, "Today you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43), not "You will have another chance to live a life on this earth." Matthew 25:46 specifically tells us that believers go on to eternal life while unbelievers go onto eternal punishment. Reincarnation has been a popular belief for thousands of years, but it has never been accepted by Christians or followers of Judaism because it is contradictory to Scripture.

The one passage that some point to as evidence for reincarnation is Matthew 17:10-12 which links John the Baptist with Elijah. However, the passage does not say that John the Baptist was Elijah reincarnated but that he would have fulfilled the prophecy of Elijah's coming if the people had believed his words and thereby believed in Jesus as the Messiah (Matthew 17:12). The people specifically asked John the Baptist if he was Elijah, and he said, "No, I am not" (John 1:21).

Belief in reincarnation is an ancient phenomenon and is a central tenet within the majority of Indian religious traditions, such as Hinduism, Sikhism, and Jainism. Many modern pagans also believe in reincarnation as do some New Age movements, along with followers of spiritism. For the Christian, however, there can be no doubt: reincarnation is unbiblical and must be rejected as false.
 lovinvixen
Joined: 9/10/2008
Msg: 87
Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 10/30/2009 2:01:41 PM
Logic you need to read the whole thread, what you stated has been said on this topic before.

But how do you explain these scriptures:

Job 8:8-10, KJV, Job speaks of 'Yesterday' in a fashion as if he implies pre-existence!

Revelation 3:12 , KJV, "...and shall go no more out;...", what else but Reincarnation could this be?

Also, in the scriptures regarding Matthew 17, about Elias/Elijah, one must consult www.biblegateway.com on the other gospels about Elias. For the other Disciples record this also as a witness of Jesus's words.
 lovinvixen
Joined: 9/10/2008
Msg: 88
Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 1/15/2010 6:35:42 PM
For the intelligent poster in #123:

"Well He always was and always will be, He cannot be created or destroyed, He's always moving through form, into form and out or form". You see the energy that Einstien was talking about is infact the proof of the existance of God. I think that if God is all eternal, all encompassing, than nothing could possibly exist outside of God and that includes this entire universe. You and I as people cannot exist outside of God, by the very deffinition of God and any perceptions that you are seperate from Him is an illusion of the ego. It's your higher brain function telling you that what you see before you is happening to you and not within you.


O.k., Eintein was Jewish, any Biblical scritptures that you have on Reincarnation to add to the thread?

Many cultures support Reincarnation but we are talking about the Bible here!
 lovinvixen
Joined: 9/10/2008
Msg: 89
Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 2/10/2010 7:34:24 PM
From the over-sightful in post #10


How could John the Baptist be Elijah then? We know that John was born in the normal way. Malachi promises that he'll return. Not someone like him but actually him. Jesus says that John was Elijah. So, it seems that Jesus was in error. So if Jesus wasn't in error it must mean that John was Elijah. But since John was born in the normal way this can only mean he was a reincarnation of Elijah. So what of Elijah ascending to Heaven without dying? Let me answer this with my own question. What would Elijah need with a body in Heaven? The Bible suggests that the human form will be destroyed in the presence of God (Moses gets a glimpse of God and is nearly killed in the process). When Elijah ascended to Heaven his body must have been destroyed in the presence of God. He would then be able to have his spirit enter the fetus of John the Baptist.


Where does it say Elijah/Elias(GREEK) just automacticly ascended into Heaven? I read 'chariot of fire'; could that mean something else like an extraterrestrial space craft, Chariot of Fire?

POINT: Elias or what was the earlier Hebrew term? Anyway it's said he would return before the Messiah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And IF Jesus lied, would he be the Holy Son Of God?
 kissmekindsir
Joined: 11/16/2008
Msg: 90
Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 5/10/2010 3:56:04 PM
From post # 25:


I dont care if you have a Catholic bible or a King James bible, there are no passages in there that suggest reincarnation.


Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Then you like many in the Islamic community deny that that there may be things they DO NOT understand?

Many Jewish folk THINK THEY know everything about the Old Testament; yet they can't see the connection that Christ is the Messiah they seek.

And one has to acknowledge WHY is this '...go no more out..' in there!

Sounds very much like going out from the Father after a judgment to re-incarnate again and again!
 RenoMarine80
Joined: 11/25/2008
Msg: 91
Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 9/13/2010 11:39:34 AM
It really does sound like it to me, its amazing what youll find in the text....
 Charles1421
Joined: 10/7/2009
Msg: 93
Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 8/3/2011 12:48:09 AM
I am by far no expert on the bible or history for that matter, but I find it hard to believe in reincarnation, atleast in the since of after I die that I am reborn here on earth as someone else. To me that would mean no one has made it to heaven yet, granted my catholic friends say when you die you go to purgatory and that its like being grounded or in time out and you sit there reflecting on your sins from when you were alive and then you get in after a set amount of time. My opinion on reincarnation is bit different I feel our first reincarnation is when we get saved God takes us and slays us and we are reborn children of the king,I believe that there is a second and that is when we die and go to heaven whether there is a purgatory or not would be irrelevant in this case but when we die and we face our Lord I believe that we become who we truly are then. The reason I have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of coming back here as some one new means that in theory one of us could have the soul of Moses, granted to find out I was Moses in a past life would be cool I really don't see that happening.. But like I said I am no expert just a guy who hopes to meet Jesus and sit and talk to him
 lovinvixen
Joined: 9/10/2008
Msg: 95
Reincarnation in the Bible
Posted: 4/17/2012 11:40:52 AM
Well, the aspects from scripture about Elijah and Elias being the same person have been brought out in this thread. And the documentation from the Old Testament stated that Elijah had to return and the first four Gospels support this.

But aside from scripture what would be the justice of one child living to be 90 and in a country or continent where the Message of Christ was never spoken nor taught and he dies. Does that 90 year old go to Hell and a child who dies say at 8 years old goes to Heaven by some Biblical student's interpretation.

I mean if God is omnipotent, omnipresent, all knowing, and just, why does it appear the dice have been cast for all of us with our meagar existence of one being born wealthy, another poor, one being born deformed and another very healthy?

I have to support what Einstien said in that "...I refuse to believe God plays dice with the cosmos.."!

And we are all particles within the Cosmos, the micro within the macro
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